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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Buckinghamshire => England => Buckinghamshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: :sjl on Wednesday 09 October 13 20:34 BST (UK)
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I am looking for the Mother of the following person.
Thomas Smith.
I have found the information on his marriage and family, on numerous censuses.
I HAVE a copy of his Marriage certificate to Eliza Read and Thomas Smith and it lists HIS father as Thomas Smith,
HOWEVER, when I look at the census for 1841 I can find a Thomas Smith living with a Mary Smith in Hanslope, Northamptonshire,
but when you bring up the census, you know how they give you other possible suggestions as to other sources of info on that person, eg. other census years, marriages, births, deaths.
Well the suggestion for Mary suggests that she was Mary Mills, and IF that is correct it states that she married a William SMITH....
so this would be the WRONG family.
anybody able to check this out for me....????
{just for the record I WON'T be ordering any marriage certificates or birth certificates to try and confirm this...]
I have posted this message on Northamptonshire rootschat and they suggested I should be posting here....not quite sure WHY as I was assuming that the person I was looking for was living in the Northamptonshire county??? But doing my do diligence......
So my hope would be that there is someone that lives in the area that is willing to do a personal lookup for me.
[if this is asking too much, I appreciate you taking the time to read this request]
[not exactly sure what the parameters are for the help one can expect from requesting a lookup.]
Sincerely,
Sharon Lamb
*************
Husband: Thomas [ii] * SMITH (ref #9754) looking for HIS PARENTS - f: is Thomas Smith - mother is ?????
Born: Abt. 1817 in: Hanslope, Northamptonshire, England
Source: 1851 England Census -cm
Married: Apr 1842 in: Wicken, Potterspury, Northamptonshire, England
Source: ancestry.co.uk-cm - copy of original marriage certificate
Died: Bef. 1917 in: possibly England
Father of Thomas Smith is Thomas SMITH .....need his mother's name
Wife: Eliza/Elizabeth [ii] * READ (ref #9755)
Born: Bef. 30 May 1819 in: Wicken , Northamptonshire, England
Source: igi no copy made
Died: Jan 1895 in: Potterspury, Northamptonshire, England [not sure if this is correct]
Father: George [iii] * READ
Mother: Mary * WALTERS
CHILDREN
1 Name: Joseph [iii] * SMITH (ref #9747) my husband's direct ancestor
Born: Bef. 16 Oct 1842 in: Wicken, Northamptonshire, Eng.
Died: Abt. Jul 1899 in: Wicken/Potterspury, Northhamptonshire, Eng.
Source: info from ancestry - cm
Married: Apr 1866 in: Buckingham, Buckinghamshire, England
Source: ancestry.com - cm
from the 1851 and 1861 he never lived with his parents, in 1851 he lived with his maternal grandparents, and 1861 he was living with the family where he was an apprentice.
Spouse: Louisa * WARNER
2 Name: George SMITH (ref #12996)
Born: Abt. 1846 in: Potterspury, Northhamptonshire, Eng.
Died: Bef. 1946 in: possibly England
3 Name: John SMITH (ref #12995)
Born: Abt. 1850 in: Lillingstone, Dayrell, Buckinghamshire, England
Died: Bef. 1950 in: possibly England
4 Name: Job SMITH (ref #12994)
Born: Abt. 1851 in: Lillingstone, Dayrell, Buckinghamshire, England
Died: Bef. 1951 in: possibly England
5 Name: Ann SMITH (ref #13004)
Born: Abt. 1853 in: Buckingham, Buckinghamshire, England
Died: Bef. 1953 in: possibly England
6 Name: William SMITH (ref #13005)
Born: Abt. 1854 in: Buckingham, Buckinghamshire, England
Died: Bef. 1954 in: possibly England
7 Name: Henry SMITH (ref #13006)
Born: Abt. 1856 in: Buckingham, Buckinghamshire, England
Died: Bef. 1956 in: possibly England
8 Name: Phoebe C. SMITH (ref #13007)
Born: Abt. 1861 in: Buckingham, Buckinghamshire, England
Died: Bef. 1961 in: possibly England
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Hi All.
Just linking the 2 topics so we are aware of both. :)
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0wgf/
Sandy
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Thanks Sandy
not sure how you did that but appreciate you doing it
does this mean if I get a response for either one, that I will know about it?
sorry REALLY NOT SURE how this site works....
haven't had a chance to look at the other link you provided but it looks really interesting....fingers crossed I will find something there.
will try to remember to keep you posted, if I forget and you are interested please ask.... :D
Sharon
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Hi
There is this site for everything about Hanslope
http://www.mkheritage.co.uk/hdhs/index.html
In the box at the top that says " photographs people buildings sources " click on people to check the registers
claire
Can't find a Thomas Smith bn c1817 with father Thomas, but the marriage of William Smith and Mary Mills is there.
claire
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Thanks Claire.
the problem is that it states on HIS marriage certificate that his father's name is THOMAS.
I found the 1841 Census with A thomas Smith on it, in the family with Mary Smith [nee MILLS] as the parent....a widow.
but when you look at WHO Mary Smith had married it was a WILLIAM Smith.....
so therefore it DOESN'T APPEAR to be the correct family.
I am working through the site and not finding anything that matches....
just looked at the page again and don't even see that any of the folks listed on the 1841 census page with Mary Smith are listed as being a child of Thomas..
okay now I am confusing myself even more,
I found Thomas Smith born 1817 in Hanslope, living in Lillingstone Dayrell, Buckinghamshire, on the page.
but THAT is it.
I was looking at the other folks that were listed on the 1841 Census for Mary Smith as being her CHILDREN
the Thomas Smith listed there is on the page for Hanslope
it shows him born in 1819 parents William and Mary
married to Mary Smith on several censuses
so if nothing else it seems it proves that the Thomas Smith we thought MIGHT be the one I am looking for, that is listed on the 1841 Census...is NOT the correct one.
so still looking.
now I am thinking he WASN'T living in Hanslope, in 1841.......
scratching my head trying to think NOW where I am should be looking...in Lillingstone Dayrell...or possibly Wicken since that is where his wife lived???
any suggestions?
Hope this makes sense......
thanks for you help.
Sharon
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Morning Sharon.
Roots went down for an hour and I went to bed, so I couldn't answer your reply last night. :)
Yes you will get notifications on all topics that you post on Roots.
Looks like you have had replies and replied to another couple of Rootschatters.
The link I gave was for Hanslope that is mentioned above.
Sandy
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I think maybe one area to look at is the occupations that Thomas noted on the cenuses.
He is a noted as 1851 Farmer of 19 Acres, 1861 Labourer, 1871 Labourer, 1881 Ag Lab.
Therefore did he come into some money on his father's death?
Also his father was a gamekeeper therefore did he come from an area further away
from Northants or Bucks.
Thomas said on the marriage certificate that he was in Leckhamstead at the time of marriage
so has he been looked for there in 1841.
Censuses were not a document to clarify details of folks places of birth as they were often
in-accurate, like in Eliza and children being born in Wicken, not Potterspury.
Also as families moved around often a child may have thought its place of birth as the village
he was living, yet the family had moved there whilst he was young.
Sandy
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Hi Sandy
Just to avoid too much duplication of effort, Sharon's also running parallel threads at
http://genforum.genealogy.com/englandcountry/messages/155734.html and
http://genforum.genealogy.com/englandcountry/messages/155684.html
I'm happy to leave it to you from now on in!
I was the one who suggested that Sharon had sent herself, not everyone else, on a wild goose chase!
Kind regards
David
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Hi David.
Nice to hear from you. :)
Thanks for putting the other links.
I will nip over and have a look.
Sandy
EDITED: Just one of many Rootschatters always willing to help where I can.
Just like you David.
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OK, so shall we attack this from a different direction!
Thomas SMITH seems to be quite consistent in the various census returns that his birthplace was Hanslope. He also states that his father's name is Thomas.
Although there are at least two Thomas SMITHs baptised at Hanslope about the right time, none of them has a father named Thomas. However, there is a baptism for a William, son of Thomas and Susannah SMITH on 22 Nov 1822 - this being the only baptism I can find at about the right time with a father named Thomas. Thomas and Susannah didn't get married in Hanslope, nor can I find burials for them. Where did they get married? Did they have a son named Thomas before moving to Hanslope where William was born?
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OK, so shall we attack this from a different direction!
alright
Thomas SMITH seems to be quite consistent in the various census returns that his birthplace was Hanslope. He also states that his father's name is Thomas.
this was confirmed on his marriage certificate
Although there are at least two Thomas SMITHs baptised at Hanslope about the right time, none of them has a father named Thomas.
agree
However, there is a baptism for a William, son of Thomas and Susannah SMITH on 22 Nov 1822 - this being the only baptism I can find at about the right time with a father named Thomas.
Didn't notice that one
Thomas and Susannah didn't get married in Hanslope, nor can I find burials for them.
ok
Where did they get married?
Did they have a son named Thomas before moving to Hanslope where William was born?
I can understand your thinking, but WHERE does that leave me???
I was also trying to think outside the box and was wondering if maybe Thomas was not the FIRST name of the father??? but maybe his middle name....so he was perhaps for example William Thomas Smith --- but went by Thomas.
but I still didn't find anything from a quick look that would make that work in Hanslope.... I don't think, I will look again.
thanks for helping me out
:sjl
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Joseph Smith may simply have been visiting his maternal grandparents at the time the 1851 Census was taken, which is why he appears on that entry, rather than actually living with them. It's not unusual, nor is it that unusual to find some people appearing twice on the same census. OK you'd expect him to be listed as a visitor, but this isn't always the case.
Eliza Read was more than likely born in Wicken because the family came from Wicken, and were there for many generations before. She, like her father and siblings, were all baptised in Wicken. Jemima Read the witness to her marriage was indeed her sister, she married Henry Onan/Owen in 1846 in Wicken. Both of Eliza's parents were buried in Wicken in 1877 and 1882. There are, as I'm sure you have found, numerous trees on ancestry for this Read family, although with varying degrees of accuracy. I've been researching them for almost 15 years but don't have any further information on Eliza's husband Thomas Smith.
One thing to bear in mind with the marriage certificate. As Sandy has said in relation inaccuracies on Census entries, it's not impossible that Thomas's father is listed incorrectly on his marriage even if he was literate. I've a few examples of this and still wonder how it could have happened. The trick is going to be finding a Thomas Smith to a father who is a game keeper in light of one not existing in Hanslope. Not necessarily an easy task with Smith being a common surname. I have Smith ancestors in Suffolk and have a similar problem. :(
Sharon, I know you have said on one thread you are not prepared to spend any money on this research but I really do think you would be well advised to spend £3, which can be paid online and received via email, to get a 100 year search of all Smith baptisms in Buckinghamshire covering the period perhaps 1760-1860 to see if any Thomas Smiths are born to a father who is a gamekeeper (you may well catch Thomas and Eliza's children baptisms in that time period too). David I believe has given you a link to the Bucks FHS website search facility on your other RC post. The single search option isn't as cost effective as a blanket 100 year search and all you need to provide them with is the surname and any variants (such as Smyth(e) or Smithe perhaps) and the 100 year period required. It won't involve any issues of giving wrong information. At least then you would be able to see if there were any Smith gamekeepers in the county which may eliminate or confirm who your Thomas' father is.
I've had a quick look on the non-conformist indexes on ancestry but there don't appear to be any obvious Thomas Smith baptisms on there so it's probably more likely he was baptised Church of England.
Nicola
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Re: Father of Thomas Smith born Hanslope, Northamptonshire, England
« Reply #11 on: Today at 19:26 »
Quote
Joseph Smith may simply have been visiting his maternal grandparents at the time the 1851 Census was taken, which is why he appears on that entry, rather than actually living with them. It's not unusual, nor is it that unusual to find some people appearing twice on the same census. OK you'd expect him to be listed as a visitor, but this isn't always the case.
I might have eventually come to this conclusion, not sure, but as you say it doesn't prove that he lived there. okay I get it
Not sure why Sandy has suggested otherwise, but Eliza Read was more than likely born in Wicken because the family came from Wicken, and were there for many generations before. She, like her father and siblings, were all baptised in Wicken. Jemima Read the witness to her marriage was indeed her sister, she married Henry Onan/Owen in 1846 in Wicken. Both of Eliza's parents were buried in Wicken in 1877 and 1882. There are, as I'm sure you have found, numerous trees on ancestry for this Read family, although with varying degrees of accuracy. I've been researching them for almost 15 years but don't have any further information on Eliza's husband Thomas Smith.
Yes, most definitely have found some trees on ancestry with the wrong info, amazing how some folks just add whatever, but I do try to add ACCURATE info...
I did find the Oman/Owen tree also, and wondered about the name, but found an answer on Ancestry about that, which pretty well cleared up the problem
If you have been researching this line for 15 years, would I be jumping to a conclusion to say that you are connected to this line? If so HOW?
One thing to bear in mind with the marriage certificate. As Sandy has said in relation inaccuracies on Census entries, it's not impossible that Thomas's father is listed incorrectly on his marriage even if he was literate.
one would suppose that you know your father's given name, but again, as I mentioned in a previous reply it might have been his MIDDLE name..
it seems nothing is EVER written in stone. even when you appear to have the proof in your hands. the information is only as correct as the person giving it is aware !!! - does that make sense? I think you know what I mean.
I've a few examples of this and still wonder how it could have happened.
The trick is going to be finding a Thomas Smith to a father who is a game keeper in light of one not existing in Hanslope.
Not necessarily an easy task with Smith being a common surname. I have Smith ancestors in Suffolk and have a similar problem. :(
Sharon, I know you have said on one thread you are not prepared to spend any money on this research but I really do think you would be well advised to spend £3, which can be paid online and received via email, to get a 100 year search of all Smith baptisms in Buckinghamshire covering the period perhaps 1760-1860 to see if any Thomas Smiths are born to a father who is a gamekeeper (you may well catch Thomas and Eliza's children baptisms in that time period too). David I believe has given you a link to the Bucks FHS website search facility on your other RC post. The single search option isn't as cost effective as a blanket 100 year search and all you need to provide them with is the surname and any variants (such as Smyth(e) or Smithe perhaps) and the 100 year period required. It won't involve any issues of giving wrong information. At least then you would be able to see if there were any Smith gamekeepers in the county which may eliminate or confirm who your Thomas' father is.
no offence to anyone else that suggested this, but I like your thinking much better, sorry I like to get a big bang for my buck....
will see about doing as you suggested.
I've had a quick look on the non-conformist indexes on ancestry but there don't appear to be any obvious Thomas Smith baptisms on there so it's probably more likely he was baptised Church of England.
sorry not sure what this means....other than the obvious.
again I appreciate your help
:sjl
Nicola
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If you have been researching this line for 15 years, would I be jumping to a conclusion to say that you are connected to this line? If so HOW?
Eliza Read's great grandparents Thomas and Jemima nee Ironmonger (who didn't die in London at the age of over a 100 as quoted by so many ancesty tree's ::)) were my 6x great grandparents.
I've had a quick look on the non-conformist indexes on ancestry but there don't appear to be any obvious Thomas Smith baptisms on there so it's probably more likely he was baptised Church of England.
sorry not sure what this means....other than the obvious.
again I appreciate your help
:sjl
In addition to the normal parish churches which were Church of England, you also get a number of non-conformist (ie. didn't conform to Church of England) "denominations" for want of a better word. This would include, but not exhaustive, catholic, quaker, baptists, methodists et al.
As regard's Thomas' father's name, it could just be plain incorrect and not even a middle name. I've an ancestor whose father was Isaac, yet his sister's marriage entry lists their father as Thomas yet both she and her mother, who was a witness, were both literate.
There is also the possibility that Thomas could have been illegitimate and his mother married a Smith at a later date. Then his step father could have been Thomas Smith. There is also a possibility his mother was the Smith and the father's name is fabricated I'm afraid. My grandmother's cousin was illegitimate and they fabricated a father for the birth certificate and his mother used her mother's maiden name as her own maiden name even though she wasn't married. Unfortunately it does happen and doesn't help us poor researchers.
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Eliza Read's great grandparents Thomas and Jemima nee Ironmonger (who didn't die in London at the age of over a 100 as quoted by so many ancesty tree's ::)) were my 6x great grandparents.
my husband has to go back 9 generations to get to them, but is directly connected to them.
so you are distant....very distant relations.....
As regard's Thomas' father's name, it could just be plain incorrect and not even a middle name. I've an ancestor whose father was Isaac, yet his sister's marriage entry lists their father as Thomas yet both she and her mother, who was a witness, were both literate.
yeah I can see that happening....
There is also the possibility that Thomas could have been illegitimate and his mother married a Smith at a later date. Then his step father could have been Thomas Smith. There is also a possibility his mother was the Smith and the father's name is fabricated I'm afraid. My grandmother's cousin was illegitimate and they fabricated a father for the birth certificate and his mother used her mother's maiden name as her own maiden name even though she wasn't married. Unfortunately it does happen and doesn't help us poor researchers.
no kidding.....thanks for another explanation
:sjl
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OK, this could put the cat amongst the pidgeons so to speak. It's been bothering me that the Thomas Smith who was in Lillingstone Dayrell was variously a farmer and agricultural labourer, yet your Thomas is listed as a cordwainer on his marriage certificate. As Sandy has enquired, did he come into an inheritance or something? Not impossible but seems less likely that a cordwainer would become a farmer.
So that got me thinking. Is the Thomas Smith in Lillingstone Dayrell the correct Thomas Smith, especially as his wife Eliza/Elizabeth is listed on at least two census as being born in Potterspury? As they were living not that far from Northamptonshire it's less likely she'd perhaps list her birthplace incorrectly and, as I've mentioned, the Read family are in Wicken for many generations, although some branches do move elsewhere.
So I had a search on another site for a Thomas Smith cordwainer and not just in Northamptonshire. Interestingly on the 1851 Census in Passenham is a Thomas Smith with wife Hannah and step son Joab Jones (probably Job Jones). That Thomas Smith is born in Thornton, Buckinghamshire. Thomas Smith and Hannah Jones married Sept qtr 1850 in Potterspury Registration District. That got me thinking, so I had a look on the NBI and there is a burial in Wicken on 12 April 1846 of an Eliza Smith aged 26 years. As Eliza Read was baptised May 1819, she may not have been 27 years old yet in April 1846. Now I'm not saying that definately is Eliza but it would explain why her son Joseph is resident with his maternal grandparents on the 1851 Census. If his father had remarried, he may not have wanted a child from a previous relationship living with him, although if that was your Thomas he obviously has a stepson with him. It may have been that Joseph didn't want to live with his father and stepmother, he would of course have been almost 9 years old.
I only have the Northants Marriage Index to 1837 so can't confirm where Thomas Smith and the widow Hannah Jones married unfortunately. One ancestry tree for her son Job James Jones lists her as Hannah Bailey and the information listed about her son Job ties in with the 1851 and 1861 Census when he is resident with Thomas Smith and Hannah. That tree claims she is in Scotland in 1861 but I suspect that person hasn't really looked into what happened to her closely.
If anyone can confirm where that marriage took place and/or the details about who the father of this Thomas Smith is, it may confirm or refute my suspicians that the Lillingstone Dayrell family are not the correct one. I note several ancestry trees list them as being the same couple but none appear to have any birth certificates of the children to definately confirm this.
Nicola
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To add to the possible Thomas Smith in Passenham, there is a Thomas Smith in Thornton on 1841 Census who is a gamekeeper.
1841 Census
Thos Smith 40 Gamekeeper
Maria Smith 40
Daniel Adams 75 gardener
Mary Smith 20 Lacemaker
Eliza Smith 15
John Smith 14
Ann Smith 10
Susanna Smith 7
William Smith 5
Joseph Smith 1
1851 Census, this would seem to be the most likely candidate:
Tattenhoe, Buckinghamshire
Thomas Smith Head 56 years agricultural labourer born Whaddon
Sarah Smith Wife 54 years born Ashton
William Smith Son 15 years agricultural labourer born Thornton
Joseph Smith Son 11 years agricultural labourer born Thornton
Three of the daughters are living elsewhere in the county, one visiting her married sister.
It's possible that Thomas' wife is incorrectly listed on the 1841 Census as Maria, or he may have remarried between the two Census.
Admittedly Thomas Smith senior in 1851 is an agricultural labourer, but I can't find any other Smiths born in Thornton, Buckinghamshire, other than this family, and a gamekeeper who had fallen on hard times could very well find himself working as an agricultural labourer.
In light of this, I think you really need to confirm whether or not the Thomas Smith who married Hannah Jones/Bailey in 1850 was the son of a Thomas Smith, gamekeeper or possibly agricultural labourer in light of the 1851 Census entry.
If you wanted to be certain the Eliza Smith burial in 1846 in Wicken is your Eliza, you would need to get her death certificate to confirm she was the wife of Thomas Smith, cordwainer, as that information won't be available though any other means. There are a few other Smith burials in Wicken but nothing obvious to say she was somebody else's wife. There is interestingly an Elizabeth Smith buried in there in 1846 aged 2 years. Another child perhaps?
Nicola
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This appears to be the marriage of the Lillingstone Dayrell couple (found in the online Northants strays index)
Thomas SMITH otp, full age, bachelor, timber carrier, father John, labourer
Eliza WOODWARD of Potterspury, full age, spinster, lacemaker, father Thomas, groom
1849 16-Feb at Lillingstone Dayrell BKM
And this is the other marriage mentioned above
Thomas SMITH of Stony Stratford, widower, age 30, shoe maker, father Thomas, labourer
Hannah JONES of Puxley, widow, age 28, lacemaker, father John Bailey, labourer
1850 30-Sep at Passenham
There is a SMITH family of Game keepers living in Horton, Northants in the 1841 census.
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There is a SMITH family of Game keepers living in Horton, Northants in the 1841 census.
There is but I think it's more than likely a different family. They have a daughter Ann with them on the 1851 Census born Horton. Did they have a son Thomas at all in Horton, although as the wife is from Hanslope they could have been there previously?
Thanks to Marilyn for the 1850 marriage.
In light of the 1851 Census entry at Tattenhoe, it doesn't surprise me that his father is listed as a labourer on that one but it seems more than likely to be the same person. A search from Bucks FHS for baptisms would confirm if there is no other Thomas Smith born at Thornton at that time.
Sharon, I think it would be well worth you purchasing the 1846 death certificate for Eliza Smith buried at Wicken to see if she is indeed Eliza Read as it should say who she is the wife of on the certificate itself. This would appear to be the death entry - Eliza Smith Jun qtr 1846 Potterspury 15 241 - that's the only one in the Registration District that year. Stony Stratford, where that Thomas is resident at the time of the 1850 marriage, also comes under Potterspury Registration District.
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I like the look of the Thornton/Tattenhoe family
There is a register office marriage of
Thomas SMITH of Whaddon, Bucks, labourer Sarah MITCHELL of Wicken, widow 1847
Notice was given of the intended marriage at the Potterspury register office
(source a publication by the Eureka Partnership)
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There are three Maria Smith death registered in Buckinghamshire between 1841 and 1847 which could be his first wife. Unfortunately it would depend on where they were as there is one in Jun qtr 1841 in Buckingham Registration District which covers Thornton, and two in Winslow RD which covers Tattenhoe in Jun qtr 1841 and March qtr 1843. A burial search would probably be more productive to confirm when Maria died.
But I agree the Thornton/Tattenhoe family looks the most likely. ;D
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I am not sure why it was thought I said they were not born in Wicken.
Not sure why Sandy has suggested otherwise, but Eliza Read was more than likely born in Wicken because the family came from Wicken
Censuses were not a document to clarify details of folks places of birth as they were often
in-accurate, like in Eliza and children being born in Wicken, not Potterspury.
Good that it seems there are 2 families here , although confirmation of a death certificate may
not confirm the husband surely if someone if else is present at the death.
At least I have some that don't.
We can't quote from the National Burial Index or Eureka on Roots.
It would be great if we could as I have many Northants, Bucks publications by Eureka.
http://eurekapartnership.com/ and the N.B.I. :)
Sandy
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I have the burial for Eliza at Wicken from the Original Parish Register.
Wicken P.C.
Pg. 43, No. 343
Eliza Smith, Wicken, 12 April 1846, 26
Doesn't help with relatives.
Sandy
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Also Elizabeth who was mentioned.
Wicken P.C.
Pg. 44, No. 347
Elizabeth Smith, Wicken, 17th Sep 1846, 2
Sandy
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I am not sure why it was thought I said they were not born in Wicken.
Not sure why Sandy has suggested otherwise, but Eliza Read was more than likely born in Wicken because the family came from Wicken
Sorry, just me getting confused, if you check my original posting, I edited it earlier when I realised.;D Mind you it got me thinking that the Thomas and Eliza/Elizabeth Smith of Lillingstone Dayrell might not have been the correct couple. I had only got the marriage of Thomas and Eliza on my own Read tree, plus a listing for son Joseph. Couldn't say if I'd come across the Lillingstone family or not but I'd not have been happy about the Potterspury birthplace for the wife anyway.
although confirmation of a death certificate may not confirm the husband surely if someone if else is present at the death.
I agree, I have the odd one that doesn't mention the husband's name, but does mention his profession. However, I suspect in this case it could well mention his name and profession, depending on who the informant was. If it was anyone else in the family other than her husband, chances are they'd know anyway. I still feel it would be needed to confirm beyond any doubt. Have to wait and see how the OP feels about spending the money.
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Also Elizabeth who was mentioned.
Wicken P.C.
Pg. 44, No. 347
Elizabeth Smith, Wicken, 17th Sep 1846, 2
Sandy
Is there a baptism for this Elizabeth in Wicken at all Sandy please? I don't have access to the OPRs as my mother has them.
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Hi Nicola.
No I am afraid I don't, and Alan and Marilyn's records only go to
1843 on baptisms.
Just have the burials to 1857.
Sorry
Sandy
Edited I also change my postings . :) I can see if the Library has it when next in.
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Hi Nicola.
Whoops had to edit my post as wrong family.
The Wicken P.R. Baptisms has a page 66 which has from no. 525
to 528 either un-readable or blank.
The previous entry is for Feb 8 next page 67 starts Feb 15.
Therefore unable to help with the baptism.
Sorry.
Sandy
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Hi Sandy
Thanks for looking anyway. ;D
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Thanks to all for your help, greatly appreciated
I have just got an upgrade on my computer, otherwise I would have repsonded to you sooner.
I love all of the discussions.
but am at a loss to know EXACTLY what you would like me to do NOW....
I have order those baptism for 1760 - 1860 for Smith as Nicola requested.
so I am willing NOW to spend some more money, but not just for A ONE PERSON look up....I prefer more bang for my buck.
but if ONE PERSON is what is needed, just tell me WHAT you want me to do and I will see about following your directions.
Look forward to learning more about the SMITH family and hopefully with your help, finding the CORRECT FAMILY.
once again thanks for your help..... :D
Sharon Lamb
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Look forward to learning more about the SMITH family and hopefully with your help, finding the CORRECT FAMILY.
once again thanks for your help..... :D
Sharon Lamb
I think you'll find the concensus amongst several of us is that your Thomas is the one from Thornton, Buckinghamshire in Passenham on the 1851 Census with new wife Hannah Jones nee Bailey. He was a shoemaker whose father it would appear was a gamekeeper according to the 1841 Census for that Thornton family, but the Bucks FHS search should confirm that he is the son of that family (assuming any son of theirs wasn't buried as an infant but you'd need a Bucks FHS burial search for that).
If that's the case, it would probably be worth your while to purchase the death certificate of the Eliza Smith I quoted earlier to see if it definately confirms she's Eliza Read. OK I know you don't like purchasing for just one entry but sorry you will have to do that occasionally as no other way to get the information. That should definately confirm she died before the 1851 Census. If it's not her husband who is the informant, chances are it would be one of her relatives as that Eliza Smith is buried in Wicken.
As for the Lillingstone Dayrell family, well I think as Marilyn has confirmed from the 1849 marriage in the parish, that isn't your family.
Going forward (or backwards as the case is) from there assuming the search confirms your Thomas was from Thornton, Buckinghamshire, well you'll have to purchase other baptism/marriage/burial searches from Bucks FHS to follow the lines backwards unless you are able to get to the Records Office. Coverage on the IGI is patchy and can't be relied upon, so the only option really (until perhaps the day the records appear online, if ever) is the searches from Bucks FHS which I gather are now complete for the whole county.
Another option would be the corresponding marriage certificate for the Thomas Smith/Sarah Mitchell marriage in 1847 that Marilyn has mentioned as that is most likely your Thomas' father remarrying. That would then confirm his father's name in case there are more than one Smith family in Whaddon.
Tedious I know confirming the correct lines, and costs money, but at least you'd have some certainty you have the correct family. It's a matter of confirming each generation as best you can before moving on to another. The baptism search will help but you will need the corresponding marriage and burial's search to be able to conclusively confirm the members of the family.
Nicola
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Nicola:
Thanks for your reply
just tried to print it up so I can follow it easier, but we got a new router today and we need to reinstall the printer, at least that is what I THINK needs to be done.
we got optic tv too, so there is too much information trying to fill in all the empty pockets in my husband and my brain to try and figure it out tonight, so it will need to wait till tomorrow
just wanted to let you know I got your latest.
Talk to you tomorrow
:sjl
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Brilliant Nicola. :)
The only way to confirm a person's lineage is as you say by buying the relevant
certificates.
Much better if you can purchase a copy on Anc**** or your local Library in
our case for 80p each against £9+ from the G.R.O.
Lets hope the rightful Thomas Smith is solved.
Another link for Bucks Marriages would be here, just search database.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0lx0/
Sandy
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The only way to confirm a person's lineage is as you say by buying the relevant
certificates.
I totally agree, particularly with a common surname such as Smith. I know it can be difficult deciding which is the correct certificate but part and parcel of research unfortunately. I'm sure we've all managed to purchase the wrong certificate at some time or other over the years, I know I have. However, at least with documentary evidence for each generation, you at least know you've got the correct family. ;D
Much better if you can purchase a copy on Anc**** or your local Library in
our case for 80p each against £9+ from the G.R.O.
Have to be lucky for that unfortunately, so few people appear to be purchasing certificates these days to confirm research. This is the issue with the trees that have Thomas Smith and Eliza Read listed on them, none have them have anything to back up their theory which I'm sure is incorrect. But then the couple are sidelines for most of these people as far as I can see, so less likely people would purchase the certificates to confirm sidelines because of the cost involved. As you say, necessary for your own directline otherwise how can you be sure you have the correct family. ???
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Have you discovered the family history section in Milton Keynes library ?
They have microfiche going back years in all the local villages.
I also found for me, also researching a common surname was a single vilage study. I spent hours trawling the relevant 1840 cencus. Hanslope is not big. if you trawl the whole cencus and record each smith and family group it may make more sense.
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Have you discovered the family history section in Milton Keynes library ?
They have microfiche going back years in all the local villages.
I also found for me, also researching a common surname was a single vilage study. I spent hours trawling the relevant 1840 cencus. Hanslope is not big. if you trawl the whole cencus and record each smith and family group it may make more sense.
Good suggestion but the original poster lives in British Columbia so not really an option. ;) In any case, it looks now likely Hanslope isn't the birthplace of the correct Thomas Smith, Thornton is.
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Morning All. :)
I meant to say save a copy not purchase from Anc****. :)
flateric999 there are 2 links to the Hanslope web site here is one again.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0f8l/
the other was kindly noted by claire on Reply 3 of this thread.
In case of assistance for others who maybe following this topic.
Sandy
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Is this your family living in Tamworth, Staffordshire in 1881?
Joseph SMITH age 38 born Wicken, Northants
Louisa SMITH age 38
Herbert A. age 12
Julia Lizzie age 8
Elizabeth Annie age 8
Evelyn B
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Hi:
just to let you know I got the results back today for the request for all SMITHS from 1760 to 1860 baptised in the county of Buckinghamshire.
definitely got my monies worth.
there are 111 pages worth of info.
*****************
just keeping you informed.
:sjl
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Re: Father of Thomas Smith born Hanslope, Northamptonshire, England
« Reply #37 on: Today at 17:18 »
Quote
Is this your family living in Tamworth, Staffordshire in 1881?
Joseph SMITH age 38 born Wicken, Northants
Louisa SMITH age 38
Herbert A. age 12 Herbert Archibald
Julia Lizzie age 8
Elizabeth Annie age 8
Evelyn B
yes, that is the correct family.
:sjl
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Glad I have indentified the right family - I was beginning to lose the plot and needed a reliable starting point!
In your baptisms printout will you please keep an eye open for any children of a John and Margaret SMITH - likely before 1800
They are my SMITH brickwall
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just going through the postings,
so do we, that is the royal we, need any info from the baptisms in Buckinghamshire?
if so, from WHAT area....sorry trying to sort through what you folks decided I needed is getting a little muddled .....in MY brain.....
anyone else need any info off the baptism list.....it is here so might as well use it.
Sharon
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Brilliant Nicola. :)
The only way to confirm a person's lineage is as you say by buying the relevant
certificates.
Much better if you can purchase a copy on Anc**** or your local Library in
our case for 80p each against £9+ from the G.R.O.
Lets hope the rightful Thomas Smith is solved.
Another link for Bucks Marriages would be here, just search database.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0lx0/
Sandy
is THIS the one you are referring to.....
sorry, double and triple checking that I am following the correct folks.
thanks
:sjl
1850 3 SMITH Thomas Potterspury 15 525 JONES Hannah 30 Sep 1850 Passenham with Deanshanger - St Guthlac 107 NRO
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is THIS the one you are referring to.....
sorry, double and triple checking that I am following the correct folks.
thanks
:sjl
1850 3 SMITH Thomas Potterspury 15 525 JONES Hannah 30 Sep 1850 Passenham with Deanshanger - St Guthlac 107 NRO
No, not unless you want to double check Marilyn's details as she's quoted this marriage on, I think, page 2 of this posting.
This is the one I'm suggesting:
I like the look of the Thornton/Tattenhoe family
There is a register office marriage of
Thomas SMITH of Whaddon, Bucks, labourer Sarah MITCHELL of Wicken, widow 1847
Notice was given of the intended marriage at the Potterspury register office
(source a publication by the Eureka Partnership)
However, I can't find a marriage registered in 1847 for them at Potterspury, the nearest I can find is:
Thomas Smith
Sarah Mitchell
March qtr 1850
Winslow Registration District
6 485
There is an 1847 marriage of a Thomas Smith in Potterspury Registration District, but the only Sarah listed on the same reference is a Sarah Alcock. It's possible that they didn't marry in 1847 but left it until 1850.
In light of that, and hoping it's not a Registry Office marriage as I doubt they'd be included, you may be best ordering marriage and burial searches from Bucks FHS for Smith and variants for the same period you ordered the baptisms. With a bit of luck it may appear, if it doesn't you may have to order the above marriage certificate.
As for baptisms, you're interested in the Thornton and Whaddon Smiths, but again you could do with getting the marriage and burial searches for the same period to double check who married and who perhaps died young.
Nicola
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is THIS the one you are referring to.....
sorry, double and triple checking that I am following the correct folks.
thanks
:sjl
1850 3 SMITH Thomas Potterspury 15 525 JONES Hannah 30 Sep 1850 Passenham with Deanshanger - St Guthlac 107 NRO
No, not unless you want to double check Marilyn's details as she's quoted this marriage on, I think, page 2 of this posting.
not trying to be hard to get along with but thought this is what you had suggested in your message 30..... which is where I was getting the info from
This is the one I'm suggesting:
in the same message 30....you stated ANOTHER OPTION is the following
I like the look of the Thornton/Tattenhoe family
There is a register office marriage of
Thomas SMITH of Whaddon, Bucks, labourer Sarah MITCHELL of Wicken, widow 1847
Notice was given of the intended marriage at the Potterspury register office
(source a publication by the Eureka Partnership)
You ALSO said that this was MOST LIKELY - MY THOMAS' FATHER remarrying...
However, I can't find a marriage registered in 1847 for them at Potterspury, the nearest I can find is:
Thomas Smith
Sarah Mitchell
March qtr 1850
Winslow Registration District
6 485
There is an 1847 marriage of a Thomas Smith in Potterspury Registration District, but the only Sarah listed on the same reference is a Sarah Alcock. It's possible that they didn't marry in 1847 but left it until 1850.
In light of that, and hoping it's not a Registry Office marriage as I doubt they'd be included, you may be best ordering marriage and burial searches from Bucks FHS for Smith and variants for the same period you ordered the baptisms. With a bit of luck it may appear, if it doesn't you may have to order the above marriage certificate.
is it possible we are both getting confused. again sorry to be such a pain, but no point in ordering the wrong thing....
:sjl
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As for baptisms, you're interested in the Thornton and Whaddon Smiths, but again you could do with getting the marriage and burial searches for the same period to double check who married and who perhaps died young.
am I allowed to post on here what I got from BUCKINGHAMSHIRE....hopefully it IS BUCKINGHAMSHIRE, that I am suppose to looking at.
:sjl
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As for baptisms, you're interested in the Thornton and Whaddon Smiths, but again you could do with getting the marriage and burial searches for the same period to double check who married and who perhaps died young.
am I allowed to post on here what I got from BUCKINGHAMSHIRE....hopefully it IS BUCKINGHAMSHIRE, that I am suppose to looking at.
:sjl
Just looked at Thornton, Buckinghamshire, Baptisms.
there are only three families listed in the baptisms.
Henry & Mary Smith in 1784 and 1786
Thomas & Maria Smith with 8 children covering 1820 to 1840 - he is a labourer
they live in Thornton
one child is
Thomas baptised 7 april 1822
and Mathew & Sarah Smith with one child Flora [ I think it is safe to say this is NOT the family were were looking for...
does any of THIS help?
:sjl
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[b Nicola said:
As for baptisms, you're interested in the Thornton and Whaddon Smiths, but again you could do with getting the marriage and burial searches for the same period to double check who married and who perhaps died young.
[/b]
we are looking for Thomas Smith the father and son???? correct???
the son Thomas Smith - who married Eliza Read born around 1817
and his father Thomas Smith born about circa 1797.....and was a gameskeeper [ according to the marriage certificate of Eliza Read and Thomas Smith.
correct.
okay so looking in this time frame on the Whaddon, Buckinghamshire, England - Baptisms.
I find
a thomas smith baptised 28 Aug 1796 son of William & Ann Smith
Prior to that the first Thomas listed was baptised 6 Mar 1763 son of Thomas and Aina Smith of Nash - I presume this is too early to be the right one
the next Thomas Smith was baptised 20 Nov 1803 son of Thomas & Mary Smith of Nash
the next Thomas Smith was baptised 29 April 1821 - baseborn ??? - son of Catherine Smith of Roundhill Singlewoman
the next Thomas Smith was baptised 6 Sept 1840 son of William & Sarah Smith of Nash, LABOURER
none of the other baptism has an occupation with the information
so this is PAST the possible birth of Thomas Smith who married Eliza Read.
so we are NO further ahead, are we? other than eliminating Whaddon as the place that he was baptized....?
:sjl
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Nicola wrote :
If that's the case, it would probably be worth your while to purchase the death certificate of the Eliza Smith I quoted earlier to see if it definately confirms she's Eliza Read. OK I know you don't like purchasing for just one entry but sorry you will have to do that occasionally as no other way to get the information. That should definately confirm she died before the 1851 Census. If it's not her husband who is the informant, chances are it would be one of her relatives as that Eliza Smith is buried in Wicken.
this is the person you are referring to.....
Eliza Smith [nee Read] - DEATH
Wicken P. C.
pg 43 NO. 343
Eliza Smith, Wicken, 12 April 1846, 26
so I would need to contact NORTHAMPTONSHIRE FAMILY HISTORY CENTER??? for this info???
correct????
so just looking to see WHERE I would need to order the marriage and death certicates going by the fact that she married and died in Northamptonshire.
the Northamptonshire Family History Center says this info is available at FIND __ PAST..
so I looked there and I don't see any matches.
if that is the case WHY would I go to the effort of ordering something that is probably going to be wrong?
again not trying to be a DELIBERATE pain....just trying to follow your directions but don't seem to be able to complete the orders....ha ha
:sjl
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Death of Eliza Smith [nee Read]
I looked once again this time I have found two possible suggestions for the Eliza Smith [nee Read]
on Find -- Past....
they will cost me 5 credits each.
having never used this site before IF THIS IS THE SITE YOU WANT ME TO USE....will the results be a certificate?
again no point in using it IF I am not going to get the information that we are ALL after.
Again I apologize for being such a pain.
****
looked again for the death and don't see anything that matches.
thanks again
:sjl
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Morning sjl.
I think the confusion we are having is the topic is getting so long and mixed up,
mainly because it is having previous lumps of posting and asking advice rather than
just noting what is needed. My personal opinion.
So maybe a short summary is needed.
The marriage of Thomas and Sarah Mitchell in 1850 is a certificate you would need to
confirm if your Thomas remarried. Freebmd note it as Mar Qtr,1850
Winslow R.D., Vol 6, Page 485.
The burial on Eliza Read on Find My Past would just give you the same information
I noted from the burial entry, it would not be a death certificate, that you would also
have to purchase. Therefore no need to contact the Northants Family History Society.
Here is the reference from Freebmd Jun Qtr 1846 Potterspury R.D. Vol. 15, Page 241.
If you want to get these certificates then maybe look at what is needed next, i.e. all
the marriages, burials for Buckinghamshire as suggested by Nicola.
At the end of the day we are here to assist you if we can, especially as you are not
in our Country and therefore do not have access to the records.
Sandy
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Here are some web links that maybe of help.
General
FREEBMD http://www.freebmd.org.uk/
FREEREG http://www.freereg.org.uk/
FAMILYSEARCH https://familysearch.org/
FREECEN http://www.freecen.org.uk/
Northants
Alan Clarke and Marilyn Pontings Northants Indexes http://www.familyhistorynorthants.co.uk
The Northants look up exchange http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/anna.smart/nth.htm
Northants Record Office http://www.rootschat.com/links/0l6m/
Northants Family History Society http://www.northants-fhs.org/
Sandy
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Sharon
You can order an official birth, death or marriage certificate using the following site:
http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content
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In addition to what Sandy has already said, and to clarify how you need to approach this yourself and what you need to purchase, I would make the following points:
1. Obtain a copy of Eliza Smith's death certificate (Sandy has confirmed the details) from the site that Orpheus has provided you a link to.
2. Obtain marriage and burial searches from Bucks FHS for the same time period you obtained baptisms.
3. Check that Thomas Smith, son of Thomas and Maria, baptised in Thornton in April 1822 did not die as a child.
Just because Thomas Smith, with wife Maria, is listed as a labourer on his children's baptisms does not mean he is not the correct Thomas Smith. On the 1841 Census, one year before your Thomas married Eliza Read, he was listed as a gamekeeper. Somebody working as a labourer could quite easily become a gamekeeper and then revert back to a labourer again.
Assuming Thomas Smith baptised Thornton in April 1822 is not buried in Thornton before 1842, then this will most likely be your Thomas for the aforementioned reasons. The 1851 Census entry in Passenham with second wife Hannah lists him as a cordwainer born c1821 so all the details agree with his 1842 marriage. As Marilyn has given you the details of his second marriage, there is no need to obtain a copy of the certificate and I did not say you needed to. At no point does this Thomas Smith, shoemaker, claim to be born in 1817 - you are confusing him with the Lillingstone Dayrell Thomas who is NOT yours.
4. You need to confirm Thomas Smith's mother Maria's maiden name. The Daniel Adams with them on the 1841 Census may be her father but unless the baptism of Thomas Smith in 1822 lists his mother's maiden name (not impossible but unlikely) you will need to purchase the birth certificate of her youngest child, Joseph, to confirm her maiden name. This would appear to be the correct details:
Joseph Smith Sept qtr 1840 Buckingham (Registration District) Vol 6 Page 316
You can order this from the previously mentioned GRO website.
Smith is too common a surname to take a guess at the correct marriage without further checking.
5. When you have the birth certificate, you can then check the marriage search results to confirm where and when Thomas and Maria married. This will not tell you either Thomas or Maria's father's name because it will have occurred before 1837 and the start of civil registration.
6. Thomas senior, gamekeeper and labourer, remarried before 1851. As Sandy has mentioned, you need to obtain a copy of this marriage certificate to conclusively confirm his father's name. The details appear to be the following:
Thomas Smith March qtr 1850 Winslow RD Vol 6 Page 485
Tattenhoe, where Thomas senior is living with his two youngest sons in 1851, is in Winslow RD. Although it would seem he intended to marry Sarah Mitchell in 1847, it does not look like they actually married until 1850. This seems the most likely marriage certificate but you would need to consider the details on it with other information from the Census, such as occupation and residency.
7. The Thomas Smith baptism you mention in Whaddon in 1796 is more than likely Thomas the gamekeeper but the marriage certificate should hopefully confirm this. You can then look for his parent's marriage from the search results from Bucks FHS.
10. When you have Maria's surname from her son Joseph's birth certificate, you can then obtain baptism/marriage/burial searches from Bucks FHS for that surname to look for her parents. She is listed as born in county on the 1841 Census so hopefully you should be able to find this.
As Sandy has said, we are here to help you with your research but you need to obtain what has been suggested.
Nicola
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Nicola:
thanks for the point by point explanation.
I have ordered the marriage and deaths from Buckinghamshire.
just waiting for the confirmation and to send the monies.
have ordered the death certificate for Eliza Smith, but made the mistake of using An__try.....so it has cost me 3 times the price you had suggested....
realized it too late....but am trying to cancel the order.
either way it is ordered whether it goes through there or through the GRO...
have ordered the birth certicate for Joseph Smith....
********
I am TRYING to do as you have suggested, with just the one little hicup ...grr!! but live and learn.
will keep you apprised.
once again I appreciate everyone's help, and for leading me down the garden path, have never tried for such an indepth research before...so I guess that was why I was dragging my feet....but now that I have bit the bullet....I MIGHT be more willing.....to spend money in the future....
and maybe not so dense as to how to confirm things, but really don't think I would have got to this point without EVERYONE'S help....I was happy thinking that he lived in Potterspury...
Happy Thanksgiving or Columbus day to all...if neither, have a nice day.
Sincerely,
Sharon Lamb
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My Family related to Catherine Smith (Lacemaker)born1825 Hanslope to William Smith (Wheelwright)1792-1833 & Mary Mills 1792-1866.Their children jane1813,George 1817,Thomas 1819,Micheal 1820,Louisa 1823.Catherine married Joseph smith a carpenter from Grafton Regis they married in 1848 in Hanslope,they had one child Agnes parry nee smith born Hanslope in 1848,Joseph Smith died in 1853 at Castlethorpe I think!.Catherine remarried to George Tate Moore1832 Plumstead-1880 wolstanton staffs at Potterspury in 1855 he was a boiler engineer on the railways CHILDREN all born in Cosgrove,Clara elizabeth 1857,George orsine 1858,STEPHEN 1862 my great great grandfather,Jane Margaret 1865,Amelia Katherine 1867,Ada Louise 1869 the family moved from cosgrove to Crewe,some of his sons followed their father into the railway industry.Catherine brothers and sisters married Garretts,Allen’s,