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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: Wendy260 on Wednesday 09 October 13 04:02 BST (UK)
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Albert Frederick Putz born in Poplar 1887 was a Hackney clockmaker. Father and grandfather called Samuel Putz. Any info on the family greatly appreciated.
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Hi Wendy
Welcome to Rootschat.
Do you already have Census information for these men? Or BDM information?
If you could please be a little more specific with what you need then we won't be sending you information that you already have.. ;)
Cheers
Karenlee
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As Kerenlee asks we do need a little more info on what you already have, but I will tell you his parents were
Samuel Charles Putz and Ellen Mary L Reed married 1875 Kensington
on census she appears to go under the christian name of Louise
Louisa Maud
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Grandfather Samuel Putz arrived from Rotterdam Holland to Port of London 6.5.1847 confectioner.He left again after 6 months.
Married Emily Mills Sep 1852 Westminster St Margaret 1a 451
He died at Lambeth 15.8.1877 aged 59 confectioner 6.30 am
The census says he was born in Amsterdam
1861 Grey coat Place Westminster
Samuel 42 confectioner Amsterdam
Emily 29 Ipswich
Samuel C 9 Middlesex
Priscilla L 7
William H 4
Arthur G 10mth
Possible baptism on Familysearch 19.7.1819 to Herbert Putz and Geertruij Entrop.
If you get the marriage cert for Samuel it should confirm the name of his father.
Ciderdrinker
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Hello,
Forgive me, I am new to Rootschat. Its my first enquiry.
My immediate questions concern Samuel Putz, the confectioner. I have census and BMD for his son Samuel C. Putz and grandson Albert F. Putz.
The Standard story called Suicide at Lambeth Workhouse says Samuel died 1877. His wife, Emily, stated she tried to support him for 2 years. As early as 1858 Samuel "Porter" of 8 Greycoat listed his business for sale in Lloyd's Weekly. In 1859 Lloyd's weekly again reports his business was being sold off. Apparently, it did not sell, he was still at Greycoat Place in 1864. The London Gazette reported a bankruptcy that year. On the 1871 census he was not living with Emily and the children.
My questions are does anyone know the business history on Samuel? His business problems seem to precede his illness. Does anyone know when his illness started and where he was living in 1871? Apparently, he was very ill "softening of the brain." He died of a stroke and brochitis. Do you think he was in the Lambeth infirmary or the workhouse? The article says "Lambeth Workhouse," yet it sounded like he ought to be in an infirmary. I may not understand the layout and use of those buildings. Did Emily remarry...she apparently lived a long time after his death.
Thanks in advance.
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It's a tragic story; it is not easy to actually understand how hard and horrible life in a workhouse was. I know of more than one ancestor of mine at the grx2 grandparent level who lived their final years in one, one of them apparently for two decades.
This is general historical information about the workhouse in Lambeth, if I have the right one:
http://www.workhouses.org.uk/Lambeth/
It had blocks for the aged and infirm and this may be where he was accommodated -- you can read the 1874 article about the opening of the "new workhouse".
There is a thread at this site discussing "softening of the brain" (encephalomalacia) and one poster had the same gut feeling as I did: it could refer to advanced syphilis (a not uncommon condition in the days before penicillin, which then caused symptoms of psychosis). But the one does not necessarily imply the other. It can be a result of haemorraghic stroke as well, which seems reasonable here.
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Emily Putz was born abt 1833 in Ipswich Suffolk? per censuses.
The Emily Putz who died in Stepney in 1931 aged 99 was pretty certainly her!
http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/cgi/search.pl
Just search for the name.
There is an Emily Putz marriage in Poplar in 1891 that must be her daughter Emily Charlotte born 1865.
But oops, Emily does seem to have partnered again in any event; in 1881 she is Emily Jobson:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/X32L-5RG
but she is back to Putz in 1911:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XWP6-L6V
In 1871, people in institutions were regularly listed in the census by their initials only -- but the only SPs I am seeing of the right-ish age in the right general vicinity, whose place of birth is not stated as England, are all female ... And only 7 named persons (searching at Anc'y with no names at all) born 1814-1824 are shown as born in Amsterdam, Holland. Using just Holland or just Amsterdam doesn't get any better results.
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Lambeth had two workhouses at this date -- Princes Road and Renfrew Road -- and Princes Road tended to be used as an infirmary while the new infirmary was being built in Brook Street (opened 1877). That might explain the ambiguity in the newspaper report. Background information here ...
http://www.workhouses.org.uk/Lambeth/#Post-1834
Some of the Lambeth poor law records are online (at Ancestry, unindexed). I found a few references to him, but you may want to look further yourself (if you have access).
Looking at the Creed Register for Princes Road, I found no admission for Samuel Putz between 1869 and 1875, so unless he was admitted before 1869 he wasn't there for the 1871 census, and he isn't showing there on a search of 1871.
The Princes Road Creed Register shows that Samuel Putz, age 57, a confectioner, was admitted there on 14 Jan 1875, spent 4 months there, and was transferred to the workhouse (presumably Renfrew Road) on 10 May 1875. Three days later (13 May) he was sent back to Princes Road by the medical officer, remained another 4 months, and then returned to Renfrew Road on 30 Sep 1875. There is no further information in these entries.
The Rough Settlement Examinations for 1875 show that he was interviewed in the workhouse on 4 October, to confirm whether he was eligible to continue receiving assistance from Lambeth:
Samuel Putz, 57, born in Amsterdam, Confectioner, rent(ing at)
Lambeth Walk, 4 years
(no further information)
The Lambeth registers for the period October 1875 - August 1877 (when he died) are incomplete. He may have remained all that time in one or other of the Lambeth workhouses or infirmary wings.
The death certificate would clarify which building he died in, but other than it won't necessarily add to what you already know from the newspaper. If you want to order it, the death is indexed as PULZ, Samuel, aged 61 (Sep Qtr 1877, Lambeth 1d 226).
The newspaper report of the inquest said he had also been in St Bartholomew's Hospital. They have records, which could perhaps be requested from the archivists. Contact details here ...
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0wgg/
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Thank you, Bookbox. You have given me much to work with. I see now where the poor fellow was in the years leading up to his tragic death. I will research further using this new data. Thank you for the links Janey Canuk. My interest in this ancestor was piqued by the 1866 Pall Mall Gazette story called A Night in the Workhouse concerning Renfrew Road. Very sad indeed. Thanks again, Wendy260.
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For information only
Emily Putz aged 22 of Poplar father Samuel Charles Putz confectioner
married Parish Church Poplar
03/05/1891
to
John Sargent 21 of Poplar father John Sargent shoemaker
witnesses Albert Edgar Putz and Nellie Gardiner
Louisa Maud
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Thank you Louisa Maud. Do you know if Florence Maud Putz born July 1875, Lambeth, 1d 434 was last child born to Samuel and Emily? The Rough Settlement Exam shared by Bookbox for Sameul say he lived Lambeth Walk, 4 years, renting in 1875. Think that's means they had moved from Greycoat to Lambeth Walk. If Florence was his daughter, he'd managed to have a lot of kids right up to the time he went into care. I didn't find him on the 1871 with Emily, I could be missing it. I have her at age 38years as Head in Kennington, Lambeth with Alex, Samuel (jr), William, Priscilla, Walter, Arthur, Henry, Thomas, George and Emily. Samuel was admitted to Princes road infirmary Jan, 1875. Wondering if poor Emily was with child at that time as well as all the other kids. Either way, I'm constantly amazed how resilient these women of those times were. I know ladies who have a breakdown when the dishwasher breaks!
Samuel Charles Chichester Putz was born 1877, same year his grandfather died. Does anyone know if that was Wandsworth Workhouse infirmary (maternity area)? I see Union Road, Wandsworth. Again, I'm not familiar with those workhouses or areas. Curious if there were two workhouse situations going on in 1877 within same family.
Thanks for any light shed on these questions. I will order Samuel's death certif. Thanks for the tip he was listed as Pulz! Wendy260
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Florence Maude Louise Putz
baptised17/07/1875
of Samuel and Alice, father a commercial clerk
address at baptism 1 Ashmole Cotts Kennington
Not listed as mother Emily ?
Louisa Maud
added,
also at St Marks Kennington are baptisms of
Alexander Patrick
Emily Charlotte
Thomas William
all on 02/07/1873
address 2 Albert Cotts Church Street
of Samuel and Emily
Samuel Charles Chichester Pulz
baptised 08/08/1878
St Mary Newington
of Samuel Charles and Ellen Mary Louisa, occ of father billards maker
of Swan St
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In 1881, Samuel Putz the son of Samuel and Emily is a "clerk mercantile".
In 1871, he was a "clerk to locksmith".
It seems that Florence 1875 was his daughter.
He and Ellen Reed married in the December quarter of 1875, while Florence was baptised in July of that year (birth reg in September quarter so presumably born in July or late June).
It looks as if Samuel had a child with another woman before marrying Ellen -- unless there is some mistake on the baptism record and Alice was really Ellen. Only Florence's birth certificate would say for sure.
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I did double check the names as I wasn't expecting it to be an Alice, perhaps a purchase of a birth cert might clarify it
LM
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I didn't mean you, Louisa Maud. ;) Just whether the vicar made a mistake or some such. Yup, the birth certificate should do the trick -- and if it helps to date father Samuel's last known event with the family (i.e. if not as father of Florence), it could be a good idea.
Hang on ... where is Florence Putz in censuses? She must be the one who marries in 1895 in St Saviour, but in 1881 and 1891? She isn't with Emily (Jobson) in 1881.
Sounds like maybe she stayed with her mother Alice.
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No Janey
I had already checked the names, I wouldn't mind betting they were on the census but spelt wrongly somewhere
I would purchase a cert or 2 in this case
LM
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What I'm getting at:
Florence Putz was born in 1875 married in 1895.
In 1881, Emily Putz is in the census as Emily Jobson with Putz children.
- Florence 1875 is not with her.
In 1881, Samuel Putz, son of Samuel and Emily, is in the census with his wife Ellen Mary L (called Louisa in the census, assuming that is the same person).
- Florence 1875 is not with him.
(They have a daughter Ellen, born 1876.)
Florence must have been the daughter of young Samuel and a woman named Alice (and he acknowledged her, by her being baptised and registered in his name).
In 1881/1891, Florence could be with her mother Alice under Alice's surname, or with her mother Alice under the surname of a man Alice subsequently married, for instance. Or with maternal grandparents, etc.
And the birth certificate will tell the tale, whatever it be!
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Janey & Louisa,
Her full name was Florence Maud Louisa Putz. Samuel (Jr's) wife was Ellen Mary Louisa Reed. Unlikely another woman would name her daughter (other woman being "Alice") after Ellen.
There was also Priscilla Louisa Putz, Sam's sister. Florence could of been named after her even if the child of the unknown Alice. I will look further as to who is the mother and resort to the certif if no light shed. If the registrar had the name wrong, the certif won't help much.
As to Priscilla Louisa Putz there is also a question. Emily Putz was the daughter of George Mills and Priscilla Huggens (having named their daughter Priscilla after Emily's mother). Born in Hoxne, Suffolk. There was a James Huggins & wife Maria in Hoxne who had a son called Frederick Huggins. His daughter was Priscilla Helen Huggens born Hoxne, Nov 10 1854 (4a 423). She married William Herbert Putz on Nov 7 1875 (yes, the same year Florence was born and Samuel senior was interviewed by the Lambeth council). I believe its possible he married his cousin. Of course, that was common in those days and not a big deal. Do you know the relationship of James Huggins and Priscilla Huggins (Emily's parent) in Hoxne? Whew. I sure hope I've got this right.
Now back to look for more on Florence and why she was not with Emily (Jobson) on the census...
Thanks for your input and clarifications! Wendy260
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The thing about the birth certificate is that it will give the mother's full name -- including surname. And it's entirely separate from the baptismal record, so any error when the baptism was performed wasn't likely to have been made when the birth was registered. Unless Ellen routinely called herself Alice. ;)
Curious about her in 1881, but she could have been off somewhere with family or friends of family and got mistranscribed ...
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Janey,
Ok, guess the certif will help anwer this query. There is a Florence Putt born abt 1879 London on the 1891 census with a mother Alice Putt. Could not find a 1881 match. Perhaps you can see what you think of that? Strange she is not showing on two census with Ellen. She was 6 years old for the 1881 and 16 for the 1891.
Emily Putz lived on Albert St, Lambeth, for 1871 with the kids. Three of the kids baptized with address 2 Albert cottages, Church St. in 1873. Address for Florence at birth was 1 Ashmole Cottage, Kennington. A map from that time shows Church St and Ashmole are on same block. I'm not familiar with Lambeth/Kennington and it was a bit of a warren, but this is what the old map showed. Which means, I think, they were all living within steps of each other. Makes it look closer that Alice and Ellen are one in the same. Either way, it looks like Florence made it as she married in 1895. Thanks, Wendy 260.
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07/11/1875 Christ Church St Marylebone
William Herbert Putz full age of North St father Sameul Putz confectioner
to
Pricilla Helen Huggins full age of North St father Frederick Huggins
witnesses Josiah and Emma Cantle
07/11/1901 St Paul Clerkenwell
Charles Samuel Putz 24 of 24 Taplow St father Samuel Billiard maker
to
Alice Amelia Pierce 25 father William Pierce Milkman
witnesses Ganette Florence Page and William ??
02/02/1908 St John Baptist Hoxton
Albert Frederick Putz aged 21 of 117 East Road father Samuel Charles Putz Clerk
to
Maud Elizabeth Delaney aged 20 of 17 Aske St father Alfred Delaney French polisher
11/03/1913 St John Baptist Hoxton
Richard Gray 25 24 Myrtle St father William Gray Brass finisher
to
Violet Magdalene Putz 22 fatehr Samuel Charles Putz Clerk
witnesses Albert Frederick Putz and Hannah Fish
19/11/1921 St Anne Hoxton
Arthur James Finch 20 of 19 hHemsworth St father James Finch furniture dealer
to
Alice Maud Putz aged 20 same address father Charles Samuel Putz lab
witnesses Charles S Putz and John James Broad
02/02/1909 St Anne Hoxton
Daniel Charles Hurley 26 50 Essex St father Jeremiah Taylor
to
Ellen Alice Louise Denney 29 widow father Samuel Charles Putz
witnesses Sarah Ann and Emily Bates
07/12/1912 , sorry missed church
Richard Putz aged 20 77 Perost st ?? father Samuel Charles Putz
to
Ada Elizabeth Hills father William John boot maker
witnesses Albert and Maud Putz
01/04/1906 St Pter Shoreditch
John Putz 22 17 Boot St father Samuel Charles Putz Mercantile clerk
to
Emily Challis 20 16 Boot Street father William Charles lab
witnesses Daniel Hurley and Violet Magdalene Putz
22/01/1905 Christ Church Albany Street
Henry James Putz 43 widower of 63 Watling Street father Samuel Putz Confectioner
to
Mary Ada Akehurst ? 34 widow of 50 Augustus St father Nicholas Drew lab
witnesses William Frederick Smith and George Belsham
Have already given you Emily to John Sargent
I am sure you could draw up anice family tree from these marriages which should fit in with info you already have here
It might be helpful to plot them to see where they all fit in
Happy hunting
Louisa Maud
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1896 St Stephens Spitalfields
John Denney 22 of 10 Blossom St father John Denney dec boot maker
to
Ellen Alice Louise Putz aged 20 Fleur De Lis Street father Samuel Charles Putz Clerk
Witnesses
Charles Putz and Ellen Mary Louise Putz
her age on this marriage is shown as 20, D OF B = 1876, on her second marriage to Daniel Hurley 1909 she is shown as 29 D of B = 1880, perhaps because Daniel is only 26 she might have taken a few years off
LM
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Thank you so much Louisa Maud. Yes you are right lots to work with here. I appreciate it. Will ping back any interesting finds. Wendy260
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On 1841 James Huggins is at home with a family as follows in Hoxne
James Huggins aged 35 Mason by trade shown not born in county
Maria 40 not born in county
Harriet 13
Marina 11
FREDERICK 9
Charles 7
Maria 5
Edward 1
all siblings born Hoxne
1851
James Huggins aged 46 born Hoxne
Maria 50 born Wilby, builder by trade
Miriam 21
FREDERICK 19
Charles 17
Mary Ann 15
all siblings born Hoxne
1861 Hoxne
James aged 56 builder
Maria 60
No trace 1871
I assume FREDERICK above in 2 census is the father of Priscilla ?
James Huggins possibly married 1839 Norwich to either Maria Howes or Maria Parfitt, unfortunately both Maria's as cross reference
Where do you think the cousinship comes in
Louisa Maud
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Hi Louisa Maud,
Thank you for Huggins assistance.
Samuel and Emily had William Herbert Putz. He married Priscilla Huggins on Nov 7, 1875 in Westminster. Her father was Frederick Putz (the one you called out in bold). Frederick's father was James Huggins and mother was Maria.
Priscilla Helen Huggins was born 1854 in Hoxne. It was a small place.
Samuel married Emily Mills, mother Priscilla Huggins born Hoxne. Married George Mills Hoxne in 1830. I believe she died in 1832 in Suffolk. I do not have her parent's names. Emily and Samuel probably named their own daughter Priscilla Putz after her mother.
Its seems there was a bit of a migration from Hoxne to London and the families were related. Confirming the parents of Priscilla (mother of Emily) would further establish the cousin link.
With so many Priscilla's involved two heads are better than one in checking the facts. Thanks again Wendy 260.
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I must be totally confused
1861 shows Priscilla at home with parents Frederick and Harriet Huggins Priscilla aged 6 born Hoxne
I then found a marriage for Frederick Huggins to Harriet Mills Dec 1852
I then went looking for Harriet on 1841, found the following Harriet Mills
1) Chedgrave. Samuel and wife Martha Huggins, Harriet aged 8, (looks as if Harriet was baptised 05/03/1822)
2) Wretton. William and wife Mary Ann, Harriet aged 7
3) St Mary the Virgin Pulham. John and wife Mary , Harriet aged 9
I have no idea where these places are in Norfolk or even if they are near to Hoxne
I don't know where you hail from but it is a pity you can't get to the records office in Norwich, you would no doubt have a field day looking at registers in Hoxne
Louisa Maud
Sorry, Hoxne is showing as being in Suffolk
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Priscilla is listed under Higgins on 1871 living as a servant aged 17, states born Polegate Suffolk ???
No further forward with finding parents of Harriet married to Frederick in 1852, the alternative would be to get the marriage and then go from there
LM
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Louisa Maud,
You are a good sport...its a mind bender to be sure.
I am not in Britain so can't visit the Suffolk records office.
I didn't want to throw Harriet Mills in yet as it adds further head banging. It shows the families are intertwined between Hoxne, Suffolk and London, however.
She says she's born in Hoxne in 1835 on the 1911 married to Frederick Huggins.
Was she Emily's sister?
Priscilla H. (Helen) Huggins married William H Putz. She says she was born Suffolk on 1881, 1891,
and 1901. She'd gone from Suffolk to Marylebone.
Agree she could be the Priscilla Huggins on the 1861, age 6. At home.
Agree could be a servant in 1871, but not sure why she'd say Polegate. Its nearby and they sometimes say various things to the census taker. Don't put too much store by it.
Then married 1875 Christ Church Marylebone to W. Putz.
Sometime in here Emily Mills also goes to London and marries Samuel Putz.
Emily and Samuel name their own daughter, Priscilla born 1854.
Apologize in advance for any errors in this info. I try to verify it but I'm working from a long way away so not familiar with all the areas. Became aware of the complications of the lines. It might take awhile to sort out. Perhaps someone has it down and will chime in. If not, I shall muddle. Clearly, there are connections here. No hurries! Wendy260.
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I don't know if you have the census online at all, but I have found 2 Emily Mills in Suffolk, I have no idea if they fit in
1) Emily Mills aged 9 appears to be in a school in Double Street Framlingham
REF 1841 H0/107 Piece 1028 Book 9 Dist 3 Folio 47 page 7
2) Mary Mills 35
Eliza 13
Emily 10
William 10
Stoneham. H0107 Oiece 1019 Book 9 Dist 12 Folio 20 page 6
I feel a marriage certificate or two would help, at least it will show the father
LM
PS Some of Westminster church records are not online, so unless you purchase a cert or some kind soul comes up with another suggestion I don't think there is anyway to find more info about Emily, neither of these 2 Emily's show a father
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Another spanner in the works
Ipswich St Helen's B T'S
Emily Mills 1831 Father George mother Priscilla
LM
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Thanks Louisa Maud. Yes, I believe Emily Mills was born 1831. Father George and mother Priscilla Huggins. This fits Emily's naming of her first daughter called Priscilla. Emily is the 9 year old in Framlingham on the 1841. She is 19 on the 1851 a servant in St. Marylebone. She marries Samuel Putz in 1852. She is widowed 1877 and remarries Jobson. Dies Stepney in 1931 at nearly 100.
My understanding is farming was tough in Suffolk at that time. Much migration to Canada and other places from 1800 - 1850's. Poor law rates had gone up in Suffolk. Corn prices were bad. Unemployment heavy. Wendy260
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I can't find her parents so far on 1841, I am sure her marriege cert would prove whether her father was deceased by her marriage date, so I feel I am stuck now, wonder why she was in a school on 1841, perhaps the poor child was an orphan
LM
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I don't know if this is connected in any way but I found this
Priscilla Mills
aged 24
buried 24/12/1852
Bideston St Mary
Wonder where she fits in ?
LM
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Try this, it will make intersting reading
nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/s/res/3?_q=putz
LM
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Marriage between Samuel Putz and Emily Mills
05/09/1852
St John The Evangelist Smith Square
Samuel Putz aged 32 batch Confectioner of 5 Greycoat Place, father Herbert Pulz, Baker
to
Emily Mills aged 20 spinster same address as above father George Mills Plaster (looks like), not shown as "dec" so can we assume he was still alive ?
Both signed the marriage lines
Louisa Maud
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1901
living what looks like Findhan St Bromley Poplar
Emily Putz 68 Widow
Thomas 33
Edgar 28, born Westminster, shown as single.
Is it just a coincidence that the name Edgar is used here and not Albert?, he is a Steward on Shipping
Isn't it also strange that there is an Annie Putz shown as single at a separate address, I might be totally wrong but I feel this couple might well have separated and these are they living apart
The only Edgar born is 1888 and he is Edgar David, not 1873 as this census shows, a bit short of the dates we believe Albert edgar was born in 1875
No sign of the child who should be about 6
Louisa Maud
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Wendy
I would you like to consider this, we know there is a family tree that shows Isabel married to a Putz, well on London Elect Regs it shows either Albert Edgar or Edgar with an Isabel, (he seems to chop and change his name) I would also like you to consider the fact that Isobel Viola Louise Putz born 1915 mother nee Lipley died Carmarthan in 05/09/1990, she is on London Regs as Nicholls living with her husband and parents in the same dwelling in Hammersmith area, now, if we also consider that an Albert Edgar died in Wales is this a connection to who you believe to be your Albert born 1895
The surname of Nicholls, Isobel/Isabel married Dudley Lance Nicholls
Also 1935 shows Edgar or Albert whichever name he chooses at the time together with Isabel, the next 1946 shows Isobel alone, did he choose to go to Wales to live with another woman because the Albert Edgar you believe to be yours died in Wales .
Also Frederick Clifford John Putz parents as above died in Carmarthan in 1987
I think you now have a lot of info to digest Wendy, I know you have done a huge amount yourself, but I wonder if you ought to consider the Isabel Lipley as part of the Putz family
regards
Looisa Maud
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Well here is turn up for the books as it were
Isabel Putz, I think is really Rebecca I Putz who died in Wandsworth 1962 aged 86, she was married to Albert Edgar Putz born 1875, so it looks as if she died before Albert or Edgar or whatever name he chooses at the time
Wendy, what do you think now, am I right
Louisa Maud
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Yes, Louisa Maud, I see the situation is deep on the man born Mile End who died in Wales. Having another wife is certainly one possible cause to move to another country. You have done a substantial amount of digging. I agree Isobel and Rebecca are one in the same. Best, I think to let Albert have his peace in Wales. Probably run this query out now and will log them in as this stands once I've digested it. Thank you for for all your help. WendyW260