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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Cambridgeshire => Topic started by: Linda2309 on Tuesday 08 October 13 04:27 BST (UK)
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I have quite a lot of details for Thomas Henry GRAVES (my 2nd Great Grandfather) however I cannot confirm his birth date (other than from another persons tree on Ancestry).
The date is supposedly 10 March 1819 in Linton, Cambridgeshire, however he was orphaned very shortly after and I can not find any parents for him either. He immigrated to Adelaide, Australia on the "Lady Bruce" arriving on 11 Nov 1846.
If anyone has any information about him prior to his departure from the UK, it would be greatly appreciated. He married Elizabeth Grose in Adelaide on 28 Apr 1848 (I have their marriage certificate and there are no parents listed on it) and died on 10 Aug 1900.
Children = Walter, James, William, Sarah, Elizabeth, Blanche and Thomas
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Hi Linda
Welcome to Rootschat
Births weren't recorded until July 1837, so before then you're reliant on church records for baptisms, where the vicar occasionally added the birth date in the margin. But there are no baptisms of either a Thomas or a Henry Graves in Linton, or anywhere else in Cambs that I can see, in 1819. Nor are there any Graves burials in Linton after 1819 who might have been his parents.
I assume your birth date must have come from Australian records?
The only ray of sunshine is that a Sarah Graves married Thomas Hand in Linton on 29 Oct 1816, so there was at least one Graves in Linton at about the right time.
Clutching at straws time! Thomas and Sarah Hand baptised a son Thomas Hand on 10 Apr 1818, with a birth date shown of 10 Mar 1818. Your Thomas was also 10 Mar but a year later. Thomas and Sarah had two more children, Mary Ann and James, in Linton, in 1823 and 1824. The Ancestry tree shows that Thomas Henry had a brother James....... I wonder! I hasten to add that I have no confidence in online trees, which should be used as a guide only.
A Hand family from Linton moved to Croydon, Surrey. When Thomas Henry Graves came back to England c1870, in the 1871 census he was living in...........Croydon. Coincidence?
David
I suppose what I'm suggesting is that Thomas Hand might have changed his name to his mother's maiden name, Graves. Proving it would be nigh on impossible. Disproving it would be easier!
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Wow, thanks for your info, but as you say proving it would be another story. They may have taken their Grandparents name and were brought up by them perhaps? Straw clutching
Thomas did have a brother, James, mentioned in Thomas's rather lengthy Obituary in a local South Australian paper at the time. James worked in Henry's business on the Yarra River in Melbourne but I am yet to find any other details for him. Henry's birth date is also mentioned in that obituary but I still don't have anything to back it up. In 1871 the family visited Croydon, UK, however they returned to Adelaide, Australia where he died on 10 Aug 1900.
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But why stay in Croydon when they went to England? Seems a long stay for a business trip, so did he have family there? ie the Hands?
Do you have the wording of the obituary which you could post?
I'm struggling with this one and need all the help I can get. It doesn't help that I can't see an obvious Thomas in 1841 when he should still have been in England.
If he had a younger brother James the story that he was orphaned very shortly after he was born doesn't hang together
David
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Hi again - I will attempt to attach the Obituary - the original (pdf) is very hard to read and also too large apparently. It has been transcripted (docx) and I then corrected some of the spelling and obvious errors comparing the two documents. I can't upload the docx document, however I will attempt to convert it to txt and then upload it.
Thank you so much for taking the time to look at this for me....Linda
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Hi Linda
I've since found another obituary in the Advertiser at http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/printArticleJpg/36966582/3?print=n , which is of less use genealogically as it makes no mention of his brother.
I'm struggling! There doesn't seem to be full agreement in Australia about the brother, James, who one Ancestry tree shows to have been born in Yorkshire and married Mary Birkin in Adelaide. I'm not convinced that this is the right James, as yours appears to have lived in Melbourne.
Nor can I find an obvious Thomas Graves in the 1841 census, although there are are a couple of possibilities in the City of London where he was supposed to have been conducting business in Cheapside, but neither are living with parents so again not a lot of use.
David
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1871 Census
Elin Cottage,
Croydon, Surrey
RG10/483/31/55
James GRAVES, 45, Head, Mar Australian Merchant, born Linton, Cambrdigeshire
Emily, 28, Wife, Mar
Emily J, 3, Daug
James J, 2, Son
Emily and Children born Croydon Surrey
+ 2 Servants
1881 they are in Sussex and have another Son Albert G born c 1876 Croydon
1891 Emily is under SCHELL (Family above is Schell), Albert is under Schell
born c 1876 Thornton Heath, Surrey.
Havent found them in 1901 yet or James in 1891 (Overseas?)
Next Census James is down as born c 1846 Linton, age 65, but image is 85
Mar. 45 years, c 1866
I cant find a Marriage though on FreeBMD.
If we could James Fathers Name/occp would be on the M/C which could be a breathrough for you Linda.
Trish :)
1901 they are under GRACE in Preston, Sussex
I cant find James on 1851/1861 Census so looks like he was in Australia.
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Death Reg;
JAMES Graves, March 1921, Steyning, 2b 367, age 96 (Birth c 1825)
EMILY Graves, March 1923, Steyning, 2b 322, age 79 (Birth c 1844)
AH, Found the Marriage, James is down as JANE :o
Jane GRAVES, June 1865, Croydon, 2a 265
Emily BANCE on same page
+ William INGRAM/Mary Ann CHURCH
Entry on Anc is bad also, James is down as Tamar;
Marriage;
20 June 1865, St James, Croydon, Surrey
James GRAVES, 40, Bachelor, Merchant, Father THOMAS Graves, Butcher
Emily BANCE, 22, Spinster, Father GEORGE Bance, Upholsterer
Bothe signes
Witnesses George BANCE/Mary WAGNER
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Good find Trish. So that's why Thomas stayed in Croydon when he came back to England in 1869 - his brother was living there.
Did the father, Thomas the butcher, live in Croydon as well? At least James was consistent, giving Linton as his birthplace.
In 1841 in Cambridge was Thomas Hand, 40, butcher. Just too many coincidences for me, the original Mr Cynical, to think the're just coincidences:
- the only Graves entry in Linton is the marriage of Sarah Graves to Thomas Hand in 1816
- they had a son Thomas Hand born 10 Mar 1818 in Linton. Thomas Graves' Australian records give his birth as 10 Mar 1819
- they had a son James Hand born 2 Nov 1824
- Thomas and Sarah Hand + 3 children were removed from Cambridge St Giles to Cambridge St Sepulchre on 10 Aug 1832
- a Hand family from Linton lived in Croydon
I have a gut feeling about this, but can't prove a thing. Yet. School run. Back later!
David
- and there's a death of Thomas Hand in Croydon in the Mar quarter 1850! I wonder if he was a butcher?!
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It all adds up to me but as you say hard to prove. But the Butcher occp seems to clinch it for me :)
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- and there's a death of Thomas Hand in Croydon in the Mar quarter 1850! I wonder if he was a butcher?!
He was buried 3 January 1850 at Mitcham age 76 (needless to say no occupation )
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I'm usually mister ultra conservative, never prone to flights of fancy. OK, this is an exception.
There are no Graves baptisms in Linton, yet two brothers Thomas and James claim to have been born there, Thomas on 10 Mar 1819 and James c1825. There are no male Graves marriages in Linton nor any Graves burials. There are no Graves keyword Linton in any census other than Thomas and James. James' 1865 marriage names his father as Thomas, a butcher. And so a brick wall is looming rapidly.
Now the cloud cuckoo land theory starts
The only Graves in Linton is the marriage between Thomas Hand and Sarah Graves in 1816 (I've asked for a look up if anyone can fill us in on any other detail) - later Rosie has kindly provided the following "29 October 1816 at Linton Bachelor & spinster botp wit Wm Graves, MA Tomlinson & Josiah Battyl". So who was William Graves? I'll worry about him tomorrow!
This couple then baptised
Thomas Hand born 10 Mar 1818
Mary Ann Hand bap 28 Mar 1823
James Hand born 2 Nov 1824
Then they disappear from Linton.
There's a Removal Order dated 10 Aug 1832 removing Thomas and Sarah Hand and their three children from Cambridge St Giles to Cambridge St Sepulchre, which might be them, particularly as Hand is not a common name.
A Sarah Hand age 41 was buried in Cambridge St Mary the Great in 1834
In 1841 there's a Thomas Hand, 40, butcher, living in Cambridge St Clement, and there's the death of a Thomas Hand in the Mar quarter 1850 in Croydon reg district. Why did people always die just before a census? There was only one Thomas Hand in Surrey in 1841 and he was still there in 1851, but not in Croydon. Alternatively is he the Thomas Hand who had various convictions in Cambridge giving a birth of between 1791 and 1795 before being transported in 1842 to VDL? I think he probably was (particularly in the light of the age of 76 that Rosie found, which I think is too old)
A James Hand 16 shoemakers apprentice b Cambs was living in Cambridge St Andrew the Less in 1841.
Mary Ann Hand 19 b Cambs was living in Cambridge St Andrew the Less in the same house as the Ripley family in 1841. She married Joseph Ripley in 1841 (on GRO index as HARD) and in subsequent censuses gave her birthplace as Linton.
A Sarah Hand 15 b Cambs was also living in St Andrew the Less but she married Thomas Sabine in Croydon and in 1851 gave her birthplace as Haverill Suffolk, the same as Sarah wife of James so I think she was their daughter (see next sentence)
Also baptising children in Linton from 1824-37 were James & Sarah Hand. They were still in Linton in 1841 but by 1851 were living in Croydon Surrey, where they stayed. Could this James have been a brother of Thomas Hands who married Sarah Graves?
Australian records show that Thomas Graves emigrated to Australia in 1846 and he died there in 1900. His obituary shows that he had a brother James, and that he returned to England for a couple of years from 1869. Thomas and James Graves were both living in Croydon in 1871 – James can't be found in 1851 and 1861 when he was presumably in Australia.
So were Thomas and James Graves actually Thomas and James Hand, and for some reason dropped their Hand name and took their mother's maiden name of Graves?
My final flight of fancy concerns Thomas Hand jun who had one appearance in Cambridge Assizes before being transported to NSW on 27 Jun 1835 age 16, described as a butcher's boy. He got his ticket of leave in 1840 and his Certificate of Freedom in 1841, born Cambs in 1817. I reckon he could have come back to England, and changed his name to Graves in order to emigrate to Adelaide in 1846. I think James Hand living in Croydon was possibly their uncle.
If anyone can come up with a better theory I'm all ears
Aesop
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Sounds good to me! Very interesting.
There seems to have been early connections with Croydon:
Marriage at Linton 10 April 1809
James MESSENGER of Croydon, Surrey bac and
Marianne HAND otp sp
by licence
Witnesses: Wm HAND and Josiah BATTYLL
Selina
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I'd just found that marriage too Selina, but only on the IGI so didn't have the Croydon connection, which is very intriguing. I was using it to try to find where Marianne was born, via censuses, in the hope it might lead to where Thomas Hand was born. 1861 says Cambridge but I still can't find her baptism. James was born in Linton in 1795.
James' father was William Hand, so the witness could have been him or perhaps more likely, a brother.
Many Hands make light work!
Think I'll leave the Hands until the morning. All that mental exertion has done me in!
David
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Thank you all for your "investigations". I'm sorry I haven't popped in here but I am not well at the moment - although I am reading with interest all the theories and hope we can get to the bottom of it eventually.
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There seems to have been early connections with Croydon:
Marriage at Linton 10 April 1809
James MESSENGER of Croydon, Surrey bac and
Marianne HAND otp sp
by licence
Witnesses: Wm HAND and Josiah BATTYLL
Selina
You're spot on Selina! In 1851 they were living in Croydon, James born there and Mary Ann born St Ives Hunts. They baptised a child there in 1814, so it seems to be the Messengers who provide the link to Croydon. Thanks for the lead.
David
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Hi David,
What a bit of luck they survived to the 1851!
You may have this but will send anyway.
Baptisms at St. Ives All Saints
1790 April 16 Mary HAND? (question mark is in transcript)of William and Mary born 20 March
1791 April 27 William HAND of William and Mary born 25 March
1793 July 26 Thomas HAND of William and Mary born 15 February
These are the only Hand bapts during that period.
Selina
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Brilliant! Thanks Selina. I think these were Mary Ann who married the Messenger, William who may have been the witness, and Thomas who married Sarah Graves.
Mary Ann survived a couple more censuses living with her daughter in Hackney, but she gave her birthplace as Cambs.
I wonder if Linton PR gives an occupation for Thomas Hand on the baptisms of his three children. Unfortunately my old Baptism Index doesn't show occupations.
We're on a roll!
David
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I agree.
Don't think the family originated in St. Ives and maybe not in Hunts?
There is a marriage on 7 Feb 1788 at St. Botolph, Cambridge
of William HAND of Holy Trinity, Ely and Mary GOTOBED otp
Witnesses: James and Ann GOTOBED
However don't suppose going back any further will be any help in the name change to Graves aspect.
Selina
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Yes just double checked. At the baptisms of his three children Thomas Hand was stated to be a butcher.
Sorry not to have mentioned that but thought that as you had the bapts you had those details. First rule - I must not assume things!
Selina
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David - going back to your message No. 11.
I see that the Thomas Hand convicted July 1841, on prison hulk August 1841, deported for 7 years to VDL was a butcher, widower, three children. So details match. Maybe he never returned and therefore it is possible that when Thomas Graves (Hand) went to Australia in 1846 his father was still alive there!
What a fascinating history.
Selina
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The address given when James Graves died in 1921 and his wife Emily in 1923 was 73 Stanford Road, Brighton.
If a report of one or other of the funerals could be found in a local paper it would probably list mourners and if any of the Hand family (or names by marriage) were present it would show a definite connection.
Selina
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Thanks Selina. I'd seen that detail about Thomas in 1841, which I too thought added weight to my theory. I'm putting a tree together on Ancestry to try to clarify my thoughts - http://trees.ancestry.co.uk/tree/62182709/person/48082887941 - called Graves/Hand Family Tree, although there are only 7 names in it so far
I found a report yesterday for the younger Thomas wherein he was described as "butcher's boy". Blowed if I can find it today!
David
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Yes just double checked. At the baptisms of his three children Thomas Hand was stated to be a butcher.
Sorry not to have mentioned that but thought that as you had the bapts you had those details. First rule - I must not assume things!
Selina
Sorry, missed this post. Once again you've come up with the goodies Selina! I'm now totally sure that the Linton family is the one in Cambridge, and the same two Thomas' who were transported. All that remains is to prove beyond any doubt at all that Thomas jun came back from Oz and then re-emigrated, this time voluntarily, having between trips having adopted his mother's maiden name of Graves.
Perhaps I'll think about that minor problem down the pub!
David
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David - Yes its all very convincing.
Pub sounds good!
Re burial of Sarah Hand 13 February 1834 Gt. St. Marys. The entry states "of New Town St. Andrew Less 41". There are quite a few similarly stating they were of St. Andrew Less from late 1833 into 1835.
The tree you are putting on Ancestry is very handy - helps keep things straight.
I haven't seen the 'butcher's boy' record but haven't looked at them all, whatever he was he was certainly a naughty boy but then he didn't have a very good example in his father by the sound of it!
I can well understand Thomas and James keeping their past secret, possibly even their wives never knew but I do wonder if the family of Uncle James Hand had stories passed down to them.
Selina
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Just adding the details of the marriage you found.
Marriage 27 June 1841 St. Andrew the Less
Mary Ann (listed as HARD), sp 19 Servant of Union Road, New Town, dau of Thomas, Butcher
Selina
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Thanks Selina, all this detail helps to build up the picture. Still can't find the butchers boy reference - I know I'm not imagining it as I even wrote it down!
Linda - hope you're feeling better by now. Do you know in which documents Thomas is named as Thomas Henry Graves? The James Hand who moved down to Croydon baptised a son James Henry Hand in 1824
David
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The coincidences keep coming in
There's a tree on Ancestry which shows that James Graves, brother, went to Adelaide on the "Marion" arriving on 10 Feb 1849. I was iffy about this as whilst his age at 22 isn't far out, and his occupation was cordwainer - James Hand's in 1841 was shoemaker's apprentice - his birthplace is given as York, (later - but I think this is the transcriber's addition, which doesn't appear in the passenger list).
Iffy until this afternoon when I was tracing the children of Mary Ann (Hand) Messenger. She had a son James born 1814 in Croydon who married Louisa Boyd, and who should also be on the Marion going to Adelaide but
Messenger, James 34
Louisa 32
James 12
Louisa Chillman 10
John 8
Mary A. 6
Arthur 4
Eliza inf born at sea, Jan. 27 1849
If I'm right that James Graves was James Hand, and James Graves on the Marion was Thomas Graves' brother, then James Graves and James Messenger were first cousins. A coincidence that they travelled out to Adelaide on the same boat? I don't think so!
There are 9 trees on Ancestry with the Messenger family who emigrated on them - none of them know that Mary Ann was Mary Ann Hand - there are going to be a lot of Australians grateful to Selina for finding the detail in that 1809 marriage in Linton
David
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It gets better and better! Well done, good find that.
Selina
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I am loving reading this post, very well done to you all ;D You definitely deserve another trip to the pub David. :D
Rosie
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wow, amazing stuff. I am still not well but wanted to "throw a spanner in the works". I have a transcribed marriage certificate between Thomas Henry Graves and Elizabeth Grose where the declaration at the bottom for the groom was entered as Francis Henry Graves. However it was Thomas Henry Graves in the top section. Maybe he was a little tipsy on his wedding day and didn't know his own name???
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Thanks Linda. Might be a spanner, probably not. If it's a transcription it could be a transcription error, or a mistake by the person officiating. If he signed it Francis Henry Graves that's a slightly different matter, but it's pretty clear in subsequent records that he was Thomas, so I'm not getting excited about it.
It's equally pretty clear that there's not going to be a document evidencing a change of name for either Thomas or James. It's going to come down to circumstantial evidence, of which I think we've unearthed quite a lot, and the balance of probabilities.
Still working on them but it's slowing down now. I think I've been through most of the principal lines.
The probate calendar shows the following
Thomas Graves of Kent Town nr Adelaide South Australia died 10 Aug 1900. Probate Adelaide to William Shierlaw draper & John Henry Luxmoore agent. Sealed London. Resworn Oct 1902 Estate in England £3625-11-2
That's a substantial figure. Think I'll send off for the papers to see if that sheds any light. They'll take a few weeks to arrive as it's all done by snail mail. Would be nice if he made bequests to his Messenger nephews and nieces!
Davdi
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Sorry you are still poorly Linda.
I agree with David that the Francis thing was just a blip. Everything else far outweighs that.
I read somewhere (yes I didn't write down where!) that Thomas left a large amount of money in Australia let alone what is mentioned in the English probate. Strangely when brother James Graves died his estate was only worth £74. 1s. 6d., although by the time his wife died her estate was £498. 14s. 1d. You would have expected him to have been worth more somehow.
I don't expect that the dubious events of the past were passed down through the Graves family but I still wonder if any small clue came down through the Hand family, possibly to living members.
In a my own case my mother once told me that 'your father's family didn't know who they were'. It meant nothing to me at the time, long before I was interested in family history but subsequently it proved true even though I don't expect my father had any idea of what it referred to.
Selina
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http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/35372118 says that the estate was valued at £107,000
There certainly appears to be a big difference in the value of the brothers' estates
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Thanks David. That was where I saw it. Now it won't niggle at me anymore!
Another bit on Trove that rather amused me was that someone had tried to fiddle Thomas and his partner out of money! Wonder what he thought about that - pigeons coming home to roost.
Selina
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Male Convict Conduct Register entry for Thomas Hand (Senior).
http://search.archives.tas.gov.au/ImageViewer/image_viewer.htm?CON33-1-31,251,77,F,36
Difficult to read some of it.
Selina
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Thanks Selina, I was wondering what had happened to Thomas senior in Tasmania. I need to see if Photoshop can sharpen up the image a bit
David
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Hi there...I am getting better slowly day by day but we are now six hours north of our home at Hubby's favourite fishing spot. So I don't have access to any of my hard copy stuff until we return next Monday.
Very interesting about the brother's two estates, perhaps James didn't make much of a go at his side of the business in Melbourne and Thomas wiped him?
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Hi all,
I've been reading this thread 'word-for-word' - as I've come to the Graves/Hand family through Marianne Hand who married James Messenger [4th great grandparents].
What a great job you've all done! ;D
Nowhere in the family story was the surname for James M.'s wife [only Mary Anne], and I believe "by George, you've got it"! :)
The little research I'd found on Thomas 'Henry' Graves in Australia, on Trove, found much of the same information about his finances - and being such a public and prominent figure during the remainder of his lifetime.
The buildings that he owned, his estate, was held in trust for 20yrs, and 'disposed of by auction'. The properties that were sold included; the United Service Hotel [King William St], and buildings at the corner of Waymouth-street and Light-square.
I haven't been able to source any further information of Messenger family members [nieces or nephews] being bequeathed in any way, to Thomas' fortune.
The search continues.
Thanks again,
Meg
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Meg, are you related to the Messengers/Hands in any way?
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With regard to the fortune - I think it went down the Graves side as my mother's parents were quite wealthy as were her Aunts back in England and my Mum and her brother (George) did inherit some when her Mother (Gertrude Margaret) died.
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I am Linda.
William Hand is my 5th Gr8 Grandfather :)
G/G/G/G/Gmother - Marianne Hand (1790-1863) married to James Messenger (1782-1858)
G/G/G/Gfather - James Messenger (1814-1863) son of Marianne Hand & James Messenger
G/G/Gmother - Elizabeth "Eliza" Messenger (1849-1914) daughter of James Messenger & Louisa Boyd
G/Gfather - Nathaniel George Richardson (1874-1954) son of Eliza and Thomas Richardson
Grandfather - Thomas Nicholas Kemp Richardson (1911-1985) son of Nat & Edith Roberts
My Dad - John Charles Richardson (1942) son of Tom & Aileen Roberts
We also have a 'double-up' with Nathaniel George Richardson's sister, Rebecca Susanna Richardson [1842–1913] also marrying Eliza Messenger's brother, John Arthur Messenger [1839–1870].
I hope that helps.
Regards
Meg Richardson
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Wow, I have dropped the ball with my Family History but must get back into it now I have some more info. I am actually doing a class at U3A (University of the Third Age) here on the Gold Coast but am going to miss this month's class as we will be away.
We moved to Queensland 10 years ago after having lived all our lives in Adelaide (My 90 yo Dad still lives there as does my sister).
My cousin in Sydney did most of the work on this tree but she stopped at Thomas Henry Graves believing him to be an orphan. I may contact her once I have added the new info to my tree and make it public on Ancestry.com.
Thank you for your info - I'm sure it will help me once I get back to my tree.
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Hi Meg,
So nice to see someone from the family.
This was such an interesting family and I enjoyed looking into it very much. I must go back to the notes I made at the time and refresh myself!
Selina
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Perhaps a coincidence (in which I don't believe), perhaps not, but yesterday afternoon, French time so much later Australian time, someone called CockaleechieSoup (probably not his/her real name!) did a screen grab of posts 10-19 in this thread, and attached it to his/her Ancestry Tree called Richardson Roberts which seems to follow the same line of descent as Meg's!!! A compliment to all that it's used as a citation for someone's tree. I've a tree on Ancestry named Graves/Hand Family Tree at http://trees.ancestry.co.uk/tree/62182709/family?fpid=48082982991 summarising what we found on this thread. Whilst we didn't prove conclusively that the Hand brothers changed their names to Graves, I'm convinced!
If anyone who wants to look at it but can't get into Ancestry to view my tree just send me a Personal Message with your email and I'll send you an invitation. I'm tarting it up a bit at this very moment, having just got back from the school run. Another reason I put our findings on Ancestry was that none of the Messenger trees showed James Messenger's marriage (or at least if they did it was the wrong one!) nor Mary Ann's maiden name, Hand. As I put in an earlier post, a lot of Australian descendants have a lot to thank Selina for. And I think we've brought together two Australian families, the Messengers and the Graves/Hands.
This was definitely one of our most interesting queries, which took an unexpected deviation. Just shows what a pooling of minds can come up with. The tree description on Ancestry says "This tree came about as a result of a query on Rootschat - http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=663859.new#new. I'm just the oily rag pulling together information found by Selina, Rosie and Trish"
Just out of curiosity Meg, how did you find this thread?
David
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Thanks David I will look on Ancestry later when I get sat down for the evening.
You are being far too modest! You made the initial connection between Thomas Hand/Graves, I am not at all sure that I would have got there.
I too am convinced that it was the same man and agree that it was one of the most fascinating cases to crop up on here.
Selina
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Thanks David for the tree - I managed to find it OK and will have a closer look when I have more time. Off to the optician this morning. Thanks to all who have contributed in this investigation. Pity my Mum isn't still around for me to be able to tell her.
Linda
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Selina, I've been looking again at the 1788 marriage you found in Cambridge - William Hand of Ely and Mary Gotobed. The date is right, the names are right, the places are wrong. But I can't see any other marriage in Hunts or Cambs that works. I can't see a baptism of a William Hand in Ely, but there is one on 23 Mar 1764 at Wisbech, son of Edward and Mary. The timing works with a burial age of 67 in 1832, but again, the place is wrong and he didn't name a son Edward.
Does your Baptism Index show any other possibilities for his baptism c1765, or for any Hand baptisms in Cambs from 1785 onwards where the parents are William and Mary? If there are no other baptisms of children of William and Mary it makes it more likely that the Cambridge marriage is the right one.
I found yesterday in Pigots 1830 directory that William was the postmaster in Linton - I assume this was William sen rather than William his son b 1791 who I cannot trace after his baptism unless he was the witness, rather than his father, at the marriages of Mary Ann Hand in 1809 and Thomas Hand in 1816.
Many thanks
David
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David,
I can't see an alternative baptism for William, but Edward and Mary Hand did baptise a Thomas in 1766 at Wisbech St. P. so slight link with name there.
One other bit I noted was the marriage of a Thomas Hand to Louisa Clara Ferriss on 20 June 1854, Tasmania. I have a feeling that there was another Thomas Hand around though so that could be a red herring.
Selina
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Hi David,
To answer you previous question(s) - I am, indeed 'CockaleechieSoup' and I found this thread by 'googling' "James Messenger" and "Marianne" - initially seeking marriage details.
I had - at the same time - been trying to find marriage details for James' sister "Mary Ann Messenger" and discovered she was married to "George Bance", which also brought up this thread, as their daughter "Emily Bance" married "James Graves" - the youngest son of "Thomas Hand" and "Sarah Graves".
Really, this was an ideal connection.
I hope any of my research is helpful to you all.
Regards
Meg