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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Piperatthegates on Thursday 03 October 13 13:06 BST (UK)
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Hi,
I have just restarted my researches and I have found the death of John Piper (one of the loose ends on my tree)
What I Know
Bap: Toppesfield Essex England 18/03/1810
Transported to Tasmania aboard Mangles arriving 1/08/1835
Certificate of Freedom 1846
Died 18/06/1856 Sydney Australia (reported 19/06/1856 edition of Sydney Morning Herald)
Any help with his time in Tasmania and Australia would be appreciated including did he marry? have children? etc...
BTW are there convict photo's from back then as I am UK based I don't know
Any help would be gratefully received
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Hi Piperatthegates,
The Tasmanian convict records are online:
Indent Page 1
http://search.archives.tas.gov.au/ImageViewer/image_viewer.htm?CON14-1-4,75,26,L,80
Indent page 2 (gives names of family)
http://search.archives.tas.gov.au/ImageViewer/image_viewer.htm?CON14-1-4,75,27,L,80
Conduct Record
http://search.archives.tas.gov.au/ImageViewer/image_viewer.htm?CON31-1-35,271,204,L,80
Description List
http://search.archives.tas.gov.au/ImageViewer/image_viewer.htm?CON18-1-16,165,64,L,80
The main search page is at http://portal.archives.tas.gov.au/menu.aspx?search=11
Debra :)
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Many Thanks Debra, The records you have dug out for me are great, I just wish I could make out more of the handwriting :)
I see that he was given an extra three years for something, I wonder what he got up to!
again many thanks for some reason I am really fond of John, He seems a complete reprobate but he has left his mark.
Since posting I have now found a John Piper leaving Tasmania in 1846 for Sydney so I am guessing he left as soon as he was freed.
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Hi,
I was wrong about the leaving Tasmania in 1846 that looks to be another John Piper.
I will keep delving :)
Thanks in advance
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I have found a permission to marry document con52/1/7 p361 and it appears that perhaps John stayed on in Tasmania but can someone with more knowledge of these records confirm that I have the right John Piper. It appears that there were two convicts called John Piper and the other one left Tasmania in 1846 so it probably isn't him. It discribes John as Free which he would be so does that mean that Catherine Mcloughlin was a convict?
He must have left fairly shortly after to be in Sydney when he died, questions, questions, questions :)
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Can you confirm the John Piper your looking for is the one who married Catherine? Just want to make sure we're looking for the right couple. IF the convict John Piper who arrived on the Mangles in 1835 is the same one who married Catherine he was here for 20 years before marrying ??? Just seems to be a long time from arriving to marrying.
convict
56478 Piper John 01 Aug 1835 Mangles 21 Apr 1835 London
46487 McLoughlin Catherine 07 Mar 1851 Emma Eugenia (4) 30 Oct 1850 London
Permission to marry
PIPER John free McLOUGHLIN Catherine Emma Eugenia 16 APR 1855
McLoughlin, Catherine
Convict No: 46487
Emma Eugenia (4)
Arrival Date: 07 Mar 1851
Departure Date: 30 Oct 1850
Departure Port: London
Catherine was 31 when sent here and widowed with 2 children.
http://search.archives.tas.gov.au/ImageViewer/image_viewer.htm?CON41-1-29,183,122,L,80
Also
http://foundersandsurvivors.org/pubsearch/convict/chain/of23779
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The NSW death registration V18565382 122A/1856 PIPER JOHN
hi
I would be ordering a certificate for the death of the man who died in Sydney.
This may offer a clue that could eliminate or confirm him. It is probable not a great deal was known about him, but still worthwhile in my opinion.
A less expensive alternative to ordering a copy of the original is through a Transcription Agent
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/familyHistory/howToTraceYouFamTree.htm#TranscriptionAgent
Here is a link to what you may find on
Australian certificates-
http://www.jaunay.com/bdm.html
Sue
ADDING
It is noteworthy that the Sydney Morning Herald notice shows the place of birth and the age at death matching what you have on your original post.
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The full Marriage certificate for John Piper and Catherine McLoughlan can be found on FamilySearch -
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-35347-14821-39?cc=2125029&wc=M93C-9ZC:n293615032
This John Piper is a Boatman and both Piper convicts per 'Arab' and Mangles appear to be Ploughman. That's not to say either one of them couldn't have picked up the occupation as a sideline...
Cheers,
Peter
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Thank you Tastyger, Sparrett and Giblet.
I am certain that the Mangles John Piper is my one but beyond that the only confirmed item I can come up with is the death notice from the Sydney Morning Herald (19/06/1856) which states "June 18th, at his residence, Pitt-street, Sydney, Mr. John Piper, native of Toppesfield, Essex, England, aged 45 years." This is all correct for my John Piper and as he is the only John Piper from Toppesfield (small village) that is unaccounted for it must be the one that was transported on Mangles.
In Tasmania at the time there appears to be two convicts called John Piper one from Mangles, one from Arab, the one from Arab appears to heve left Tasmania early 1846 leaving, to the best of my knowledge, only "my" John Piper there.
I cannot confirm the marriage at this time as the certificate that Tastyger found does not give details of family so I am a bit stumped. The certificate has JP as 7 years younger than he actually was but I have found that is nothing to worry about especially if the wife is younger :)
So did my JP retrain as a boatman. I can now look for JP's leaving Tasmania as crew rather than passenger I suppose.
Thanks so far for the help, it really is appreciated.
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Burial record for John Piper died 1856. Dates are out a little so hope there isnt more than one of the same name dying the same year :o
Name: John Piper
Event Type: Burial
Event Date: 12 Apr 1856
Event Place: Sydney, New South Wales, Australia
Burial Place: Brownsville
Birth Date: 10 Sep 1810
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-266-12377-62571-83?cc=1534449&wc=M9MK-R2K:n1913197685
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NSW BDM's online index shows 2 John Pipers dying in 1856...
Cheers,
Peter
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Thanks Giblet
His birthdate is out by a couple of months as is his deathdate but it is certainly of interest, Tastyger has just posted that there might be another JP dying in 1856 in NSW, trust me to have a popular named person to research, the internet mainly comes up with Captain John Piper ;D which mine certaily wasn't :)
Thanks again to all
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Just been backtracking and Arab JP left for Sydney on 4/4/1850 so I am guessing he is definitely out of the frame for the marriage unless he came back. To Add to the mix I have a JP involved in a murder in 1853 in the NSW papers so I am hoping my JP was still on Tasmania wooing Catherine :)
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I highly doubt that the John PIPER marriage to Catherine McLOUGHLIN in 1855 is your John.
Your John could read & write according to his convict indent.
The John who married Catherine couldn't sign his name according to the marriage register.
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Merlin,
Thats Brilliant, perfect reasoning. QED John didn't marry.
I wish I could find out when he moved from Tasmania to Sydney as that would give more of an idea of what to search for Tasmanian records or NSW.
I have looked at the records that Debra found but a fair bit of it I cant read the handwriting but it wouldn't surprise me at all that he could read and write as I have so far found all of the ancestors that I have traced have at least had good signatures so presumably could read or write. Must have been a good school in Toppesfield :)
Mmmm so that now puts John back in the frame for the possible murder (fight with soldiers) that was in a NSW paper in 1853 but I have found that the participants were charged but not the result of the trial yet. If that JP was charged with murder and found guilty then he wouldn't be the one who died in Sydney but if he was aquitted then it is still possible.
I love these puzzles, some you can answer, but many can never be answered, the fun is finding out which is which :)
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If you read page 1 of his convict indent that Debra gave you the link to in her reply #1 it shows that he can read & write. The marriage register has the clergy marking that John PIPER with an X showing that he can't sign his name :-\
Passenger lists departing TAS are far from complete & many no longer exist.
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Merlin, you are so right, I should have paid more attentin to the form :-[ That would have saved the whole marriage red herring.
Thanks again
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The age of John PIPER on that 1855 marriage in HOBART was 38yrs.
There is a death of a John PIPER 1881 at HOBART age 62yrs.
And another death of a John PIPERS 1888 at HOBART age 70yrs.
Either are a close match... ;)
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Thanks for continuing with this Merlin,
I am pretty convinced that my JP died in Sydney in 1856 but now the question is can I find anything about his lifebetween his arrival on Mangles and his death. Did he have a family? how did he end up serving 10 instead of 7 years? all sorts of things like that.
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]how did he end up serving 10 instead of 7 years?[/color][/b]
He re-offended while under sentence... the information is detailed on his conduct record if you read it ;)
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I am pretty convinced that my JP died in Sydney in 1856
My post was to confirm that either of those John PIPER deaths in Hobart TAS were possibly the husband of Catherine & never left the State. Not your John that died in Sydney.
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My problem is that I can't read the writing :) Also you are right; it must be another John Piper.
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This is his death reg of your John on the NSW BDM:
PIPER John age 45yrs d. 1856 SYDNEY reg. SYDNEY #404
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/cgi-bin/Index/IndexingOrder.cgi/search
You were given the information earlier on how to order a transcription of his death certificate but I see the link isn't working. Here's the correct link:
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/bdm_fh.html#transcription (http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/bdm_fh.html#transcription)
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how did he end up serving 10 instead of 7 years?
Here's one offence that's on his conduct record it appears in the newspapers:
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article66270474
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That is absolutelly brilliant Merlin,
Two years hard labour for stealing Bagatelle balls ???
The mind boggles as to why he would steal them, over and above him being drunk which is what got him into trouble in the first place.
This is a transcription of an Essex newspaper describing Johns offence that got him transported
25 11 1834
John Piper, 24, & James Allen, 33, Labourers, were convicted of stealing six shillings in silver and 5 ½ d, in copper, the property of William Argent, of Toppesfield. Prosecutor, who is very old and deaf, stated that on the 1st of November he was in bed and asleep at a lodging-house, kept by John Prior; he was awoke by his clothes being pulled away from under the pillow and saw the prisoners taking them away; he asked what business they had with his clothes, when they replied that if he accused them of taking his clothes and stealing his money, they would pull him out of bed and throw him down stairs; this passed before he accused them of stealing his money; the prisoners then left him; he had 6s 5 ½ d in his pockets, which on examination he found was gone. John Prior, in whose house prosecutor slept, said the prisoners had been drinking with him on the evening in question and they afterwards went up stairs into the prosecutor’s room; after remaining there some time, he heard Argent say that he had lost his money; both prisoners then came down, and Piper stripping himself declared that he had not got the money; Allen said nothing about it, and did not offer to strip. Prior (PIPER) had been twice and Allen once convicted. The Chairman said they had committed a very heinous offence and sentenced them to seven years transportation.
He had twice before been convicted of fighting and riotous assembly when drunk :)
Definitely a real character
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Hi
Your best way forward now for a potentially more positive identification is the ordering of his death certificate transcription as advised.
Thankfully you now have a working link to the service. ;D
Sue
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I will arrange a transcription though I will be surprised if it answers any more questions as I know that there were no other John Piper's from Toppesfield in the Southern Hemisphere at the time so it will just cross the t's and dot the i's :).
A big thank you to everyone so far I am really hoping that there is more to find as because John was such a reprobate he is becoming one of my most documented non ancestors (he is a first cousin, four times removed) and it would be brilliant to find out more about his life and if he had a family in Tasmania or Australia.
All The Best
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Completed