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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Warwickshire => England => Warwickshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: fayl on Friday 27 September 13 00:36 BST (UK)
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I have recently found (from Birmingham Church Records on Ancestry) that my GG Grandfather was buried at St Pauls, Birmingham in April 1839.
Having contacted St Pauls to enquire if they hold burial plot information they informed me of the following: As far as I am aware there is not a register with details of plots, but it would be worth checking with the library in case.
The churchyard was closed for burials around 1870 and in 1890 the City Corporation took it over as a recreational space. In the 1970's the area was cleared of all remaining gravestones and before they were destroyed the readable ones were recorded
I have contacted Birmingham Library by e mail to enquire but whilst I am awaiting a reply wondered if anyone knew if these records still existed and where they are located.
Fay
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Hi Fay,
The PRs indicate that a William HIGGINS was buried at St Paul, Birmingham on 6th May 1839, aged 70.
Victor
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Thank you Victor Henry but I think there is some confusion as regards what I am actually looking for.
I have already found the entry in the Birmingham Parish Registers for the burial of my GG Grandfather - John Preston who was 28/29 years old when he died.
I am actually looking for records/information relating to his "burial plot" - in other words where exactly in St Pauls he was laid to rest, and/or who arranged/paid for his burial.
St Pauls have said they do not know of any register with details of burial plots, but in past experience I know that some Churches keep registers.
Fay
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Good morning
The inscriptions from the gravestones are recorded in 7 books available at Birmingham Library
MS 943/16/1-7 .There are around 1700 grave stones recorded.Not sure about a map and register of grave plots,if the church says they haven't got it and it no longer exists I'd have to believe them.
Ciderdrinker
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Thank you Ciderdrinker for that information.
St Pauls advised that I contact Birmingham Library to see if they have the registers.
I have already contacted Birmingham Library who advised that I arrange an appointment in the Archives Department to check for any records, but that seems pointless if the burial plot records aren't there.
I have also contacted the Archives Dept to ask if they hold "burial plot" records for St Pauls but am still awaiting a reply.
Fay
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Hi Fay,
Did you ever get a response from Birmingham Library regarding the gravestone inscriptions? I recently discovered that my GGG grandfather was buried at St Paul's in 1860 and would love to know if a transcription survived.
Thanks,
Paul
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Hi Paul
Yes I had a reply from Birmingham Library about a month later, suggesting I contact St Paul's directly.
I replied back that I had contacted St Paul's in the first instant who had suggested I contact Birmingham Library.
Not heard anything since.
I am not happy, in fact I find this very upsetting. What has happened to the burial plot records. Surely there must be a record of them somewhere.
Have they conveniently disappeared because the burial area was turned into a recreational area by Birmingham City Council.
I did contact St Paul's again to ask if burial plots in 1837 were bought outright or leased for a period of years but never heard back from them.
Fay
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How frustrating! I imagine the person responding hadn't really gone to too much trouble to look into your enquiry. I'll do some digging for information myself and let you know if anything turns up.
Paul
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That would be great Paul. I'm at a loss who to contact next.
Good luck.
Fay
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If they survive, you should be looking for the 'day books' which the parish clerks kept for such things.
I've seen the ones at the London Metropoplitran Archives for St Marylebone church and I do believe some are online with Ancestry.
However, whilst the ones I've seen show how much was paid for the funeral, they don't always specify where in the churchyard someone was buried. There has been a church in the area for 1000 years and a lot of people have gone into the ground during that time. While the workhouse was in existance the churchyard was used for 'pauper', burials and they just went in one after another.
St Marylebone, at one time, had a huge churchyrad, now redeveloped into a garden and partially built upon by a girls school.
Sad indeed but a sign of the times when the church no longer feels it can keep up the maintenance and it gets built on.
I had a look at the archives web site and the catalogue for the church's holdings is here
http://calmview.birmingham.gov.uk/CalmView/docs/EP%2035.pdf
have a look down it to see if there are references to account books etc.
There is also a reference on the last page to 4 volumes of grave locations that starts in 1833. It says they are still at the church but may have been deposited later and the page not updated.
Contact the library again and ask them what the situation is with these records and ask the same question to the church. Maybe the current incumbent doesn't know of their existence.
Dawn
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Hi folks,
I am most interested in this thread because my 4 x great grandfather, Joseph Chatterley, was buried at St Pauls in 1791. If anyone does get to the bottom of this I'd appreciate being informed.
Regards,
Keith
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Thank you Dawn for that information - I will contact the library and St Pauls again and also have a look at the link you supplied.
Keith have you contacted St Pauls about your ancestor - would be interested to see what they say to you.
Many thanks
Fay
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Fay,
No, to be honest I haven't, largely because from experience I have learned that the available information for all Birmingham churches is now held by the library. Like you, I only got the information about my ancestor from Birmingham PRs on Ancestry and haven't really had time to follow it up yet.
Although I've consulted some of the grave inscription books at the library I haven't yet seen the one for St Pauls but if it follows the format of those I have sen it will not contain details of burial plots, though it will indicate the names of those buried around your ancestor.
Regards,
Keith
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Dawn i've had a link at the link gave can and see there are details of Account Books but for the period 1841 - so 4 years after my ancestor was buried there.
I did also see the details that you mentioned - "4 volumes of grave locations that start in 1833" so will contact St Pauls and the library again to query this.
Keith it would be worth you enquiring again at St Pauls and the library.
Fay
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Fay,
Although I don't hold out much hope I will contact the church. I have been avoiding going to the new library until it is no longer full of sightseers. From what I've heard it has been pretty chaotic ever since it opened,
Keith
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Yes I can understand about not wishing to visit the library at the moment.
I can only visit at weekends as I am at work Mon - Fri but have been delaying going on a Saturday until into next year.
Fay
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I'm retired, so could go at any time but those who have already visited tell me that there's little point in going to Archive and Heritage until things calm down somewhat. Like you, I'm not really planning to go until after Christmas and after so many months with no access I'm likely to be there for quite a while when I do go.
This problem of the city having taken over graveyards seems pretty common. Not long ago I was looking for an infant burial at St Peter and St Paul, Aston and came up against exactly the same thing. Peace gardens, etc. are all very well but not much use to researchers.
Keith
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I remember being at a county archives and someone asked for burial records of a particular church. The archives had no record of a burial ground there. Well mom used to live a few doors down and used sit on the gravestones so we knew there was a burial ground. Well its all grassed over and there are no surviving burial registers of it, I've seen an odd transcription or two a while back. I'm transcribing for freereg and the period is 1841-1861 and no records for 1860 either although they think there was about 134 burials. The records are being done from a transcription done from bishops transcripts.
Also I belong to a family history society and would you believe the non conformist marriage records are missing I don't know what period for that particular area but you can pay your fee to the register office or the gro and get a copy so there were marriages there. I also know that another area where the church records were missing but the archives had got a registrars copy of the marriages apparently.
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Weste,
One thing I had not thought of is bishop's transcripts. Presumably they would be available from the diocesan office?
Keith
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They may be. I know for staffs, Lichfield archives have some but Birmingham classes as Warwickshire, may be Birmingham archives itself has some if not they should be able to tell you where. One thing though when I looked up a wedding in parish records and then the bishops transcripts. The bishops transcript had the wrong brides name totally. I've been avoiding the new Birmingham archives until next year. Unfortunately the transcript i'm working on is St peters Walsall but the the church is much older and I wonder if the burial ground as well has been lost over the years as the amount of burials in that area in that 20 year period in the land that's there is amazing.
Also have you looked at Birmingham and midland society for genealogy and heraldry to see what cd's they produced etc. They are I think are mainly going towards pdf files now. If you locate anything on there, you'll know at least they've been available somewhere. If you type in bmsgh in your search engine, the site should come up with its e -shop listed.
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I went to St Paul's the other day as I was nearby and I have some ancestors buried there.
I wasn't expecting to find anything, but to my surprise there are still quite a few gravestones there, most of them legible. I was noticed by Dennis, a very helpful gent who was on duty at the church to assist visitors. He produced a book containing transcripts of all the headstones, including some which no longer exist. Two were for my family, which was a very pleasant surprise. Sadly their stones were not among the surviving ones but I came away with much more than expected.
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That's wonderful news.
Do you know if this gentleman is there everyday.
I have a week off work in February and would love to pay a visit and have a walk around the grounds.
Fay
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From what Dennis said, I gathered that St Paul's employs him as "church watch" to be in attendance while the church is open, so I think he (or someone else) is there every day.
He knew where all the surviving stones are, and commented that it was a good time of year to look as some of them get hidden in the shrubbery! Some have been removed and used as paving, but he checked them all for me.
He said that as far as he knew there was no record of the positions of graves (unless the Library has anything), but that no graves had been disturbed so our relatives are still there :)
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Would just like to give an update as regards my plight looking for burial plot records for St Pauls Church.
In December “dawnsh” posted a link to the catalogue for the church holdings held in the archives at Birmingham Central Library – more specifically there was documented evidence that the records I am looking for were deposited there in Janauary 1992.
I again contacted the archives – but on this particular occasion never heard anything back from them.
Last week I e mailed them again – (replying from the e mail they sent me in October whereby they stated they do not hold the burial plot records) – and I actually attached the “said evidence”.
This was their reply back (the same day):-
“Please accept our apologies for the error about the burial plot registers for St Pauls, Birmingham. The item references for these volumes are EP 35/2/9/1-4.”
Three times they have told me they do not hold the records - suggesting I contact St Pauls - and twice St Pauls have told me they do not know what happened to the records.
Thank you "dawnsh" (dawn) for posting that link.
Fay
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Hi Fay
That's good news the archives have finally acknowledged that they have the records.
Have you had your trip or are you still planning to go?
Dawn
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Yes that's fantastic news Dawn - and all down to you - many thanks.
I have an appointment booked there for Thursday.
Fay
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fingers crossed you have a successful visit, let us know how you get on.
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Yes will keep you updated. I am planning on walking to St Pauls when I leave the library - if it's not too late - and weather permitting.
Fay
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Hi Fay,
That's great news, thanks for persevering. Frustrating that the library seems to be in such confusion!
If you come across any reference to my 3 x great grandfather during your visit, I'd be very grateful to hear of it. He name was Thomas William Parker and he died on 8th May 1860; he was buried at St Paul's on 13th May 1860. Good luck on Thursday!
Paul
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Good luck! Hope it's a fine day for you.
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Thank you everyone. Just shows how great the members are on here coming up with the info I needed, plus not giving up on my part despite the archives telling me otherwise.
Paul, I will have a look to see if there is any reference to your 3 x grandfathers burial.
Fay
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Just got back home from my visit to the archives department at Birmingham Central Library - feeling very disappointed i'm afraid.
There were 4 volumes awaiting me when I arrived covering varying dates.
They were a little hard to decipher - some of the writing was very feint - but to be fair these records are almost 200 years old - wished i'd taken my magnifying glass with me.
The first volume I picked incorporated 1860 so I started searching for Pauls 3 x grandfathers burial - the dates ran up to 1861 then some of the pages went back to 1859 and then forward. I scoured every page by date first, then went through all the names that were legible but nothing in that volume.
I did the same for the other 2 volumes with respect to 1860 but came up with nothing - sorry Paul.
Then started looking for my ancestors burial - 1839 - again the volume I checked went up to 1839 then backwards - then forwards - but nothing.
The last volume started at 1833 - and I felt sure I would find the details I was looking for - you know what they say "leave the best till last" - unfortunately not in this case.
There were probably half a dozen entries for 1833 on one page then the next entry was 1843 - what happened to the years in between I asked myself. There were no pages missing/torn out as the dates above were all on the same page.
I spoke with a member of staff to enquire as to whether there were any other volumes/records - but alas no. She obviously couldn't shed any light on why there were no entries for those missing years. The entries on that page were all made in the same handwriting - but why there were no records for burials during those 10 years I just don't know (and doubt I will ever find out).
My husband and I then walked down to St Pauls and had a wander around the grounds. I do know my GG Grandfather was buried on the east side (St Pauls gave me that information when I made enquiries initially) - so I took a few photographs, but by this time I was very cold and feeling very disappointed so came home.
Maybe in the better weather I will pay another visit to St Pauls and go inside the church in the hope I may meet Dennis who may give me a little bit more information on burials in the past.
Fay
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Fay,
It does seem extremely strange to have a 10 year gap in the burials. I wonder whether the church might have been out of use for a while? I've just looked through its history - or at least what is available of it online - but have found nothing. I'll do some research and if I can find the answer I'll come back to you.
Regards,
Keith
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Hi Keith
Yes very strange for burials during those 10 years to be missing from the burial plot registers.
The church couldn't have been out of use as burials were obviously taking place during that period as my GG Grandfather was buried there on 28th April 1839 and the entry number taken from the church burial registry is 1947.
Another mystery relating to St Pauls records.
Fay
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Just to recap Keith in one of the other volumes there were some burials listed through to 1839 but not one for my GG Grandfather.
With hindsight I should have asked the member of staff if she knew why there were 2 registers for that time period - as I said the writing was very feint and maybe if i had taken a magnifying glass i may have read some description in the front of the books which may have told me more.
Fay
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Fay,
I'm planning to go there before too long. I'll make sure I'm fully equipped.
I've seen so many parish registers like thet - either too feint to read or so badly scrawled as to be illegible. I can understand your frustration. What bugs me is that I've walked past and even through St Pauls churchyard dozens of times without knowing until shortly before Christmas that I had an ancestor buried there.
Keith
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I plan to make another visit to the Archives at some point in the future, and will be better prepared.
I will take my magnifying glass with me and scrutinise every word on every page of those 4 volumes, just in case i've missed the information I was looking for. Maybe I didn't spend enough time looking.
Keith I know the feeling about St Pauls - in 1975 I used to walk through Birmingham city centre on my way home from work - up to St Pauls and walk the long way around the square instead of cutting through the grounds totally unaware that I would be back almost 40 years later searching for my GG Grandfathers burial plot.
Fay
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Fay,
So far as you were able to determine, did any of those books contain entries going back as far as the 1790s?
Keith
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No Keith. The volumes i had specifically requested started from 1833.
Fay
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Hi Fay,
Thanks so much for taking the time to look for my ancestor; not to worry that you couldn't find anything. Perhaps he was one of the fainter entries - I know for certain that he was buried there as we have a memorial card produced for the occasion of his burial. I'll have to make a trip to the archives myself at some point and take a look at the books for any other family members. I moved away from the Midlands five years ago, before I started researching, so in hindsight it's rather frustrating that I didn't start sooner!
Thanks again for looking and for locating the books!
Paul
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Hi Paul, no problem looking for the entry for your ancestor, just wished i had been able to find the information for you.
I too know that my ancestor was buried there, having seen the entry in the burial record registers and who performed the burial, so it was very frustrating to come away from the archives without what i was looking for.
Fay
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What information does the book hold for those entries that are visible? Does it tell us anything more about our ancestors than the Ancestry records can, or indicate the location of their grave?
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From what i could read there were notes made of the location of some of the burials - what direction the head or feet were pointing in. Plus other notes that i had problems deciphering.
As i couldnt find the names i was looking for i didnt read many of the notes, which i regretted once i'd gotten home.
Fay
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I have been searching for my relatives in St Paul's churchyard and was disappointed to find that there were very few headstones.
There is a downloadable PDF available from https://midland-ancestors.shop/Hockley-Parish-records-I057D?search=hockley which is very detailed and has a map