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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Derbyshire => Topic started by: stubblehill on Saturday 21 September 13 20:50 BST (UK)
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I am following the line of Hunts from Violet Hunt born 1887. Her father is George Henry Hunt a coal miner. On the first census that I can easily follow is 1881, all fit into place after that. It states GHH born Belper Derbyshire 1859. He marries Martha Attenbourough in 1876 aged 17. The obvious GHH to go back with is one that every researcher has on ancestry with his father being a Joseph Hunt and his mother being an Ellen Blood. BUT Joseph Hunt dies in 1862 and his mother remarries in 1867 a Luke Burgoyne and this is where nothing fits. I have GHH in 1881 in Wessington Derbyshire with his wife Martha and two children. But his "mother" Ellen Burgoyne as she now is has him living with her and her new husband, he is down as son-in-law whereas it should state step son.
and again he is with her in 1891 when she is living back with her father a Joseph Blood with her husband Luke living elsewhere.
So here in lies the puzzle Ellen Blood cannot be his mother.
I sent for the only birth certificate that seemed to fit and of course it is the one with Joseph and Ellen Blood. Now I am stumped, can any one help me solve this puzzle before I send for his marriage certificate as I feel that this is the only answer.
In hope
Stubbs
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. . . . he is down as son-in-law whereas it should state step son.
and again he is with her in 1891 when she is living back with her father a Joseph Blood with her husband Luke living elsewhere.
The term "son-in-law" was often used to refer to stepsons! ;D
From http://www.census-helper.co.uk/census-confusions/:
In-Law
In the censuses the term 'in-law' meant 'related by marriage' as it does today, however the key difference is that in the 19th century it was applied to children which is not the case now. A son whose mother re-marries would today be called a 'step-son', however he may be recorded on the census as 'son-in-law'.
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before I send for his marriage certificate as I feel that this is the only answer.
Save your money - the marriage is on FS and no father shown
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NV71-Q69
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The 1861 entry for GHH shows him as 1yr old b Ripley and in 1871 he is 11yrs old b Ripley living with stepfather Luke Burgins (Burgoyne) and mother Ellen nee Hunt nee Blood. He is again shown as son in law
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???
Thank you, at least I now know the difference between son-in-law and step son for those times.
But Carole what a blow about the marriage certificate not having a father on it. If his father was dead it surely would give the fathers name and deceased by it as I have on other certificates I have received. I know he is not the one born in Ripley to Joseph and Ellen because as I said he cannot be in two places in 1881, with his wife at one address and with his mother as unmarried at another. If only I could find his birth. It is looking more like his mother was not married perhaps. Oh what a puzzle.
Thank you for your input.
Stubbs
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Hi,
You do not give the Registration district or Ref. numbers for the certificate you purchased for
GHH, but someone born in Ripley would come under the Belper Registration District.
In the 1881 Census there is a William Tott living with GHH, when all else fails it is always a
good idea to took at lodgers/boarders etc., just to see who they are.
In this instance it takes us to 1871 a Henry Hunt Born 1859 Crich:-
Wessington, Derbyshire
RG10; Piece: 3608; Folio: 53; Page: 16;
William Fox 36 Head Collier Crich
Mary Fox 34 Wife Great Chissel, Essex
William Tott 36 Boarder Coll. Lab. " " "
Henry Hunt 12 Nephew Crich
William Fox = Mary Tott Belper March Q 1864
The marriage took place at Duffield, Derbyshire 23rd January 1864
William Fox aged 30 Father John Fox
Mary Tott aged 28 Father Jacob Tott
However in the 1861 Census
Wessington Derbyshire
RG 9; Piece: 2526; Folio: 101; Page: 4
William Fox 27 Head u/married Ironstone Minor Crich
Mary Millon 25 Serv Married House Servant Great Chissel Essex
Looking for a William Fox Born abt 1834 Crich with Father John produces
1841 Census
HO107; Piece: 196; Book: 18 South Wingfield, Derbyshire
John Fox 35
Fanny Fox 35
Mira Fox 20
Sarah Fox 13
John Fox 10
William Fox 7
Fanny Fox 5
Joseph Fox 1
Emma Fox 1
Which of the daughters married a Hunt?
Complicated and there are quite a few other possible births, however think that the Tott connection
is important.
Spendlove
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I know he is not the one born in Ripley to Joseph and Ellen because as I said he cannot be in two places in 1881, with his wife at one address and with his mother as unmarried at another.
Sorry! ;D It happens all the time!
The forms left at the home address were filled in with the "usual" family, and then maybe he stayed over at his mother's on census night and was enumerated there also?! ::)
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If that is the case he is also in two places in 1891 with his wife and also living with his mother at his grandfathers while his step father is in a workhouse. Both the 81 and 91 state condition as to marriage as single.
I have also been following the William Tott line, mother Ruth sister Mary and Mary Tott marrying a William Fox. William does have a sister Emma. A Henry Hunt born 1859 Belper appears on the 1861 census aged 2 as a son-in-law to a Jessie Cotterill with a wife Emma, trying to work this one out.
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I note that although George Henry Hunt gives Belper as birthplace 81/91, in 1901 he states Crich which ties in with the one linked to William Tott. In 1871 listed as just Henry.
There is only one George Henry Hunt birth registered at the appropriate time which when certificate was sent for is the one who's the son of Joseph Hunt and Ellen Blood.
So either GHH's birth wasn't registered or it was as plain Henry (as he was in 1871). I too have looked at Jesse Cotterill/Emma 1861 listing. They married 19/9/1858 Crich and Emma was Emma Hunt. Marriage is on familysearch and she too appears to have been illegitimate as, like GHH when he married, no father is listed for her. Henry is not with Jesse and Emma in 1871!
Emma Hunt is shown as bc.1840 Marwood Moor/Morewood Moor which I believe is actually Moorwood Moor, nr. Alfreton.
In 1851 (ref.HO107-2127-131-28) Emma Hunt is shown as an 11yr old servant - glove seamer - working in Basford, Nottinghamshire (her birthplace transcribed as Marieal Moon (??). I cannot find an obvious entry for her in 1841.
Question is - is Henry Hunt, son of Emma Hunt the same person as Henry with William Tott in 1871? If so, what is the connection?
Annette
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I am following the line of Hunts from Violet Hunt born 1887. Her father is George Henry Hunt a coal miner.
Does Violets marriage cert show her father as GH
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Carole I am researching for a friend and although before she went away on holiday she gave me quite a few certificates I am not sure now which ones I had as I returned them to her not wanting to be responsible for them, stupidly I did not take copies. So my answer is I do not know about Violets fathers name on her marriage certificate but what I found before my friend went away fell into place with what she knew already.
I do now really feel that it has something to do with Henry Hunt and the William Tott connection but what is it? as I said in the beginning very puzzling. It would some how make sense if he is the son of the unmarried Emma Hunt as he was only 17 when he married. Is it usual for his birth to not be registered in 1859? he could then quite easily add the George in front of the Henry.
I could not find Jessie Cotterill's marriage on FS so will go back and look again
Once again Thanks everyone who ever said this game was easy!
Stubbs ???
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What's also confusing me now is that William Fox surely married his servant Mary Millon born Great Chissel (actually Chishill), Essex (birthplace so distinctive) so how can the 1864 marriage be correct when the bride was a Mary Tott?
Annette
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Annette I agree it all seems so complicated, when I started this tree I thought great, at last a local tree I can go and look things up but now I am not so sure I will find what I am looking for any way.
Stubbs
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Could she have been a (widowed) MELLOR and not MILLON on 1861?
[ ie mis-transcribed by enumerator ]
Marriage Reg: 1856 Q3 Belper 7b 793
The 4 names listed are . . . . .
Harriet Bridgett
James Mellor
Mary Tott
James Turner
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Hi,
The marriage Mary Tott to Mellor was actually in the 4th Quarter.
This marriage is also on Familysearch, it took place 24th November 1856 Alfreton.
Fathers names are listed and neither match the Surname of Bride & Groom!
Why were our ancestors so difficult!!!
Spendlove
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Hi
I think it may be best to wait until your friend is back off holiday and can verify the name of Violets father from her marriage cert
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I agree that is what I will do instead of getting so frustrated, but somewhere in my memory it was from Violets birth certificate I got the George Henry Hunt from. We will not be connecting for about a month so will definitely let you all know when I have some thing more definite.
Once again thanks everyone
Stubbs
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Thanks to everyone who have added input on this puzzle I have now through another posting on this site got the marriage for the George Henry Hunt son of Joseph and Ellen Hunt and his whereabouts after his marriage. This makes it really clear (well as clear as possible!) that I have a big search on my hands for the real GHH or HH as we all think might be the case.
Will post my findings when and if I get them.
Stubbs
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"Fathers names are listed and neither match the Surname of Bride & Groom!"
. . . . . and the names were?
Ray
Apologies for the typo Q4 to Q3
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These surely cannot be correct!
James Mellor birth 1832, father German Dean?
Mary Tott birth 1835, father William Chapman
Stubbs
???
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Spendlove following on from your post 6 I thinkI just could not let this go
looking for a William Fox Born abt 1834 Crich with Father John produces
1841 Census
HO107; Piece: 196; Book: 18 South Wingfield, Derbyshire
John Fox 35
Fanny Fox 35
Mira Fox 20
Sarah Fox 13
John Fox 10
William Fox 7
Fanny Fox 5
Joseph Fox 1
Emma Fox 1 Fanny Fox Was a Frances Hunt her marriage was 1825 Heanor Derbyshire unfortunately no fathers are given for either John or Frances. But the puzzle still remains but feel this is definitely the right track, how though is Henry related to Frances?
any ideas, hoping ???
Stubbs
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Six months on and I'm no nearer finding who George Henry Hunt really was. Still feel that he added the George as a sign of respectability. Still feel that he is somehow connected to William Fox son of Frances Fox nee Hunt. He is down as Henry Hunt nephew on the 1871 census of William Fox. There are too many Henry Hunts born in the Belper area around 1855/1860 to send for all of the birth certificates so am wondering would an illegitimate child have been baptised in those days? if so would it be worth visiting Derbyshire archives to look at baptisms in Crich, am I likely to find what I'm looking for? just to find his mother would be fantastic, maybe she died giving birth so might find something to connect him to someone.
In reply to an earlier reply yes he was down as George Henry on his daughters birth and marriage certificates.
Really need advice on this one ???
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Hi,
A little more information but no actual confirmation that Henry Hunt is the same person as George Henry Hunt.
1861 Census
Bonsal Derbyshire.
Jesse Cotterill B.1836 Bonsal
Emma " B 1840 Moorwood Moor
Henry Hunt (son in Law) so actually step son 1859 Belper (from this you know he was born
in 1858 but prior to the marriage 19.9.1858)
William Cotterill son born 1860
Jesse Cotterill = Emma Hunt 19.9.1858 Crich his Father was George Cotterill
Emma Hunt Father Unknown Bride a minor.
This is the only census that Henry Hunt appears with his mother, he then appears as previous post.
Think it is now important to discover who the parents of Emma Hunt Born abt 1840 were.
So looking at the siblings of Frances (Fanny) Hunt born 1800 Heanor, who were there children.
Hope this makes sence - off to bed.
Spendlove
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Thanks spendlove
yes it does all make sense, well of a sorts. I had followed that line way back and am now thinking this to be the case, have looked on the map and found that Morewood Moor is near South Wingfield and Wessington where George Henry lived in later life, how near is it to Crich? and what registration district would that have been in 1840 and 1858.
I have tried to find information of Frances Hunts siblings but to no avail, I have found all their births in Heanor and marriages for three but after that nothing not a single census.
Still in hope!
If I was to visit the Derbyshire archives any idea where I should start looking.
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Hi,
Looking on familysearch, I can only discover one son born to Nathaniel Hunt & Sarah.
This is a Robert christened June or July 1806 Heanor, if this is the only son then it can only
be his daughter who produced Emma Hunt born abt 1840 Moorwood Moor. All this assuming
that Emma Hunt was illegitimate.
Assume that Moorwood Moor is part of South Wingfield, so would come under the Belper Reg. Dist.
Before you can start looking at the Hundreds of Parish Registers at Derbyshire Record Office, you
need to identify which parishes you need to search.
You could start by looking at the church register for Crich re Cotterill/Hunt marriage 1858 and
check the details. You could also search the South Wingfield Parish Register to see if the birth
of Emma Hunt born 1839/1840 Moorwood Moor is recorded.
Sorry but still not able to solve your problem.
Spendlove
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Hi
I found firstly on ancestry and then familysearch Frances Hunt born/baptised 1800St Laurence Heanor
then a marriage of a Nathaniel Hunt to Sarah Pindar same church in 1793
George Hunt b/b 1793 marries Ann Fidler 1816 but nothing from then on for him. Elizabeth 1795 three possible marriages for her in Heanor, Mary 1797 two possible marriages for her, Robert 1806 nothing further for him, Sarah 1806 m William Springthorpe 1828, Eliza 1811 but again nothing further for her.
Logically Emma should be the daughter of George or Robert but of course she could have been the illegitimate daughter of one of the girls.
It does look as if I should have a day at the archives doesn't it looking for a needle in a haystack!.
Thanks for your help
stubbs
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Hi,
The 1841 Census posted previously:-
1841 Census
HO107; Piece: 196; Book: 18 South Wingfield, Derbyshire
John Fox 35
Fanny Fox 35
Mira Fox 20
Sarah Fox 13
John Fox 10
William Fox 7
Fanny Fox 5
Joseph Fox 1
Emma Fox 1
In 1841 Census the adult ages are rounded down by up to 4 years. Mira aged 20 is listed as
a Fox, but actually she is a Hunt.
Mira Hunt Born 25.1.1819 Christened 8.4.1819 Heanor Derbyshire Mother Frances Hunt so she was the illegitimate daughter of Mrs. Frances Fox. Her actual age would be 22 in 1841. It is quite likely that she is the Mother of Emma Hunt.
Will not go down the line of were Joseph & Emma twins!!
Looking in the 1851 Census for Mira Hunt or Mira anything, the only one I can discover is listed
as M. Rooth born 1819 Woolley Moor, wife of William Rooth. Cannot find a marriage.
1861 Census Crich RG 9; Piece: 2512; Folio: 27; Page: 10
Mira Colledge 42 born Langley Mill Nottinghamshire (actually Derbyshire)
On Family Search the Marriage is
John Colidge to Mirah Hunt 1852 Ashover
Civil Registration has John Colidge to Miran Hunt.
This just adds to the confusion, but if you could identify Miran in 1851 Census it may assist,
even though she would not have her daughter living with her.
Spendlove
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;D
spendlove Hi
At last I have a smile on my face!
I have spent so long looking that I didn't see the wood for the trees, it has taken another set of eyes to point out something which now seems obvious, why I did not follow Mira through to a marriage I will never know but feel that this is possibly where the answer lies.
I will now spend time on what you have found to see what I can add.
Back to my question of "Were illegitimate babies in those time likely to have been baptised?" seems that Mira was so perhaps I will find both Emma and Henry Hunt were as well. I still plan to visit Matlock archives. I really want to be able to close this for my friend. I also have to check out the Timmins/Timmons from Alfreton so it will be a busy day or two, luckily I'm not that far away. Years ago I couldn't find a birth of an ancestor of my husband, I eventually visited the archives in Maidstone Kent and found it really quickly once I started looking, it still doesn't come up on the select births and baptisms on ancestry.
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Hi,
In my experience illegitimate children were Christened, however once Civil Registration came in
many were not.
Crich is only about 31/2 miles from moorwood moore, and South Wingfield about 1 mile from MM.
I search for the place in google, when you get results then click Map which is just under the search box. A map will appear with a drop down box on left of page, click directions and enter the next place.
South Wingfield & Crich were both in Belper Registration District.
There is a lot of information about Crich here:-
http://www.crichparish.co.uk/
Phillimore Derbyshire Marriages:-
http://ukga.org/Registers/derbyshire.html
Spendlove
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:-\
This plot thickens!
On the 1861 census they have a son John born 1850! two years before they marry.
John snr is not at his parents home on either the 41 or 51 census.
John jnr like his mother is nowhere to be found in 1851.
I cannot find him under any name i.e Colledge, Hunt or even Fox for a birth or a census? :-\
Why is Mira down as having been born Langley Mill unless of course her mother was working there at the time returning to Heanor to have Mira baptised.
Interesting she does have a daughter Frances so really do feel this the right person and that she is Emma's mother, Henry's grandmother and that would explain why Henry is listed as nephew on William Fox census in 1871.
No wonder Henry added the George to his name for respectability when his g grandmother. his grandmother and then his mother all had a child before marriage.
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Hi,
Have just found the marriage of William Rooth to MARIA Fidler Belper Sept. Q 1843.
All the children (with only initials on 1851 census) are all registered Belper Reg. District 1846 -1851.
Just wondered if you were "going mad" with all the twists and turns. Think I will join you.
Spendlove
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Spendlove Hi
I really appreciate your input on this one and because of it I feel confident that I have the right lineage for George Henry.
Looking through all the siblings of Mira and then her children after marriage it seems that most of them left home very young for work reasons, some appear occasionally again some dis sapear completely. Interesting that Mira/Mirah has a daughter Frances as does Emma Fox/Hunt, Emma also having a daughter Myra.
Emma Fox only appears on that one census, no birth for her that fits but then there are quite a few Emma Hunts births around the Belper area around the time so unless I find a baptism not really likely to have real confirmation.
Now to sort the Timmins/Timmons!
Regards
Stubbs