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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Cambridgeshire => England => Cambridgeshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: poohatbarton on Saturday 14 September 13 16:26 BST (UK)
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Can anyone please assist, I have the marriage of Mary Hart to John Rolfe at All Saints Fulbourn on 10 Nov 1799 with witness' Chas Dawson and Francis Waters my problem is:- who is John Rolfe? is he the son of Ann Ranner and William Rolfe (sen) or the son of Richard Rolfe/Roffe and Ellen Battel?
I keep going over my research and must be missing something as I do not seem to be able to solve this one.
Any help would be appreciated, thanks in advance
P@B
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Is he on any census showing his birthplace or birthyear?
Does the 1799 marriage entry show him as a bachelor or widower
Do you know when and where he died
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There is a burial for a John Rolfe at All Saints Fulbourn on 14.9.1843 - aged 67 so birthyear approx 1776
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What happened to the other John Rolfe? Did he die as an infant; is there another marriage; is there another death/burial; is there a marriage/remarriage after 1837 when a father would be named? You need to try to eliminate one or the other.
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Hi. Freereg has John Rolf , Fulbourn bapt 04/12/1775, ma Ann, pa William
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Hi again there is a John Rolf born to Richard & ellen bapt 21/06/ 1767 Fulbourn- freereg
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Greetings
Becareful working on Bapt years these can be a lot later in date than the birth
Have looked at the census 1841 and nothing that I can marry to your info, is Fulbourn in Cambridgeshire?
regards
Westmorland
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I seem to have lost a message in the system somewhere so I will post it again,
Thanks everyone, but it would seem that I didn't make myself clear, no doubt family history brain addle has taken over. What I am actually trying to ascertain is which John Rolfe married Mary Hart, was it the son of William and Ann or was it the son of Richard and Ellen. I have the details of these two, I also have the marriage of John and Mary at All Saints Fulbourn Cambridgeshire in 1799 where both parties are described as single, but no parents listed. In 1820 there is a wedding at Fulbourn between Mary Rolfe (widow) and John Littlechild (widower) which might suggest that John died but in the 1951 Census mary is listed as Mary Rolfe widow and shown living with her son Henry, in Poor Well. If anyone has access to the Fulbourn 1841 census could they please try looking for Mary as both Rolfe and Littlechild, this may help to see if John did die and that the Littlechild Mary is another Mary Rolfe, there seems to be lots of Rolfes in Fulbourn.
Thanks again
P@B
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Hi
Don't worry - you did make it clear that you were trying to find which John Rolfe was which.
However - to do that - birthyears and birthplaces are the usual decider. Marriages pre-1837 give no useful info re: age or fathers name hence the question re: census entry/death date.
If he was a bachelor in 1799, a rough guide to his age would be the late 1760's or early 1780's. However, if he was a widower, he could have been much older in 1799.
The 1851 entry you mention shows Mary as 73 (1778) b Fulbourn and Henry 34 (1817) also Fulbourn
Living next door is William Rolfe aged 47 (1804) and his family
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In 1841 they are shown as Rofe - all b Cambridge. William Rolfe and family again living next door
John 60 agric labourer
Mary 55
Richard 30
Henry 25
HO107 Piece 67/4 Folio 10 Page 15
Deaths September qtr 1843
John Rolfe Chesterton 14 21
See my earlier reply re: burial details/birthyear. It would appear he was the son of William & Ann as per baptismal details shown above
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Thankyou everyone for your help, I knew the answer was there but with that family having no imagination with names and all using the same ones I couldnt see the wood for the trees
Thanks
P@B
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The family spelt their surname ROLPH or ROLFE!
My conundrum relates to the parents of a Sarah Rolfe
One was baptised in August 1800 and the other March 1806.
One Sarah married John Ogram (1821) and the other Sarah married William Mason (1825)
I have failed to identify the names of the parents!
Surely William & Mary Rolfe (nee Preston) must fit somewhere!
Mary Hart was a daughter of John & Alice Hart (nee Clarke) she married 1799 John Rolph s of William & Ann Rolph (nee Unknown)......I think
Can someone help please?
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Both baptisms are on the IGI, albeit as member submissions, but the later one is on the Baptism Index 1801-37 at http://www.cfhs.org.uk/searchsd.cfm and they're also on Freereg at http://www.freereg.org.uk/cgi/Search.pl . The parents of both Sarahs were William and Mary, but there appear to have been two William and Marys in Fulbourn. William Rolfe and Mary Preston married on 14 Jul 1794, and William Rolfe widower married Mary Shearman widow on 6 Nov 1803, but I don't think he was the William who married Mary Preston as the first Sarah's father was William junior, and the second's father was William senior. Perhaps the two Williams were father and son, although senior and junior merely means that one was older than the other, not necessarily that they were father and son. So the 1800 Sarah was the daughter of Mary Preston, and as I can't see that the 1800 Sarah was buried before 1806, on the face of it the 1806 Sarah was the daughter of Mary Shearman.
As the 1806 Sarah would have been a bit young to have married in 1821 it looks as though the 1800 Sarah should have married John Ogram in 1821 and the 1806 Sarah married William Mason. And sure enough in 1851 Sarah Ogram gave her age as 50, and Sarah Mason as 45. QED. That's not a conundrum!
What are you looking for with Mary Hart?
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Thank you so very much for your prompt and precise reply to my enquiry.
It was also very kind of you to cross refer your findings with the census records.
It was a conundrum for me as I was not aware of the marriage of William Rolfe (widower)
to Mary Shearman/Bearman (widow) on the 6th November 1803 Fulbourn St Vigor!
The marriage was witnessed by Wm L Harvey & Chas Dawson
(n.b Chas was a regularly witness to many Fulbourn marriages!)
I have attempted to trace previous marriages for both William & Mary and have failed!
Too many marriages for men named William Mason and only one definitive burial occurring in Fulbourn (1846 William aged 78?)!
To throw an iron in the works a Mary Shearman (single) married William Harris October 24 1815 All Saints.
Oddly the marriage was witnessed by Susan ROLFE & John KIRK!
I think that I had better have another drink before mentioning the Hart family of Fulbourn.
I expect that you are aware that the Hart family are connected by marriage with the Rolfe, Mason, Shildrick, Littlechild & Hancock families...where will it end?
Too much inbreeding as my Grandma used to say!
By the way John Littlechild married 3 times;
Elizabeth Miller
Mary Hart
Sarah Adam
Littlechild hunters may wish to try Ray Millar's site at http://www.raymillar.co.uk/getperson.php?personID=I16274&tree=Eday1
Thank you again for all the bother that you have gone to on my behalf......I may return!!!!
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I have since discovered that two "Rolfe" sisters were buried within 6 days of each other at All Saints Churchyard, Fulbourn as per the parish burial records.
They were;
Susan RULE of Cambridge 79 years buried May 15th 1879 - wife of Benjamin Rule
Sarah OGRAM of Fulbourn 75 years buried May 21st 1879 - wife of John Ogram
I have assumed that these girls were the daughters of William Rolfe & Mary Shearman and were NOT born to William Rolfe & Mary Preston
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I understand that these two girls are infact daughters of William M Rolph jnr and Mary Preston
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I understand that these two girls are infact daughters of William M Rolph jnr and Mary Preston
Thank you for your thoughts on the matter. Many moons ago, I thought like you!
Have you read "bedfordshire boy" response to my enquiry of the 14th February? Is his logic flawed?
It was when I was going through the Fulbourn burial transcripts, that I came across the note about the Rolfe girls, Susanna & Sarah being sisters.
n.b The sexton or priest could have been mistaken...unlikely methinks!
The flaw in "BB's" logic is that Susanna & Sarah were baptised in 1796 & 1800 a few years before William & Mary Rolfe (nee Shearman) were married in November 1803!
Such errors occur when researchers rely on others supplying just "names".
Many of the possible "Rolfe" children were shown as being the s or d to a William (jnr) when baptised.
Is there anybody out there with the definitive names of the children born to William & Mary Rolfe (nee Preston) M 1794 (did they have a total of 9 children?) and to William & Mary Rolfe (nee Shearman) M 1803 (were they childless?)?
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"Definitive" can only come from analysing the parish register for baptisms.
I have assumed that these girls were the daughters of William Rolfe & Mary Shearman and were NOT born to William Rolfe & Mary Preston
Why on earth anyone would make this assumption totally escapes me, as it clearly did Poohatbarton, as I think it is totally erroneous.
Poohatbarton's response was to your post that Susan Rule and Sarah Ogle were sisters. They were, daughters of William Rolfe and Mary Preston. We weren't asked for, nor did I look at Susan Rolfe. We were asked to separate the two Sarah Rolfes. Which I did. Sarah Rolfe who married Mr Ogle was the daughter of William Rolfe junior (and Mary Preston). Sarah Rolfe who married Mr Mason was the daughter of William Rolfe senior (and Mary Shearman) per the Freereg transcription of the PR .
Of course Susan and Sarah bap 1800 were both daughters of William and Mary (Preston). Didn't I write that Sarah 1800 was the daughter of Mary Preston? Please explain where you think my logic is flawed.
Such errors occur when researchers rely on others supplying just "names".
If this is aimed at me, which it appears to be, then it's a ******* insult.
Suggest you read through what I wrote, slowly, carefully. Nothing I wrote was illogical, nor is it at variance with what either you or Poohatbarton has since written, other than your patently flawed assumption that Susan and Sarah were the daughters of Mary Shearman.
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As you clearly failed to grasp the contents of my earlier message #13, I'll try to keep it as simple as possible in giving you a definitive, or as near definitive, list of children and their parents as I can manage, taken from the Freereg transcription. All events took place at Fulbourn.
William ROFFE bap 6 Jun 1743, buried, as ROLFE, 1 Jul 1819 age 81 (“senior, labourer”)
Marr: 1) 25 Nov 1765 William ROFE & Ann Banner. Ann bur 30 Jul 1797 wife of William Rolfe
“senior”
Marr: 2) 8 Nov 1803 Mary Shearman, widower and widow
Children of William and Ann
a. William Rolfe bap 29 Nov 1767. Bur 17 May 1834 age 66. Marr Mary Preston 14 Jul
1794.
Children of William & Mary (Preston)
1. Susanna bap 30 May 1796 dau of William “junior”
2. Mary bap 11 Jul 1797 dau of William “senior” and Mary. A PR error here
whichever you look at it. Should be either William "junior" and Mary, or
William senior and Ann. I think Ann may have been too old to have been
the mother, so I favour William junior and Mary. Probably impossible to prove one
way or another
3. William bap 23 Apr 1799 son of William “junior”. Bur 2 Jun 1799 “infant”
4. Sarah 19 Aug 1800 dau of William “junior”. Marr John Ogram 30 Apr 1821.
Sarah Ogram age 50 in 1851
5. William bap 3 May 1802. No mention of junior or senior.
6. John bap 31 Dec 1804 son of William “junior”
7. David bap 14 Jun 1807 son of William “junior”
8. Richard bap 15 Sep 1811 son of William “junior”
b. David Rolf bap 2 Jun 1771
c. John Rolf bap 4 Dec 1775
Child of William & Mary (Shearman)
1. Sarah bap 2 Mar 1806 dau of William “senior”. Marr 4 Apr 1825 William
Mason. Sarah Mason age 45 in 1851
Mary Shearman may have baptised an illegitimate daughter Susan, on 9 Jan 1801
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Hi all.
I don't know if you have this sorted? I had my husband Bryan take a DNA test because he desends from Sarah Rolf who married William Mason. Her parents are William Rolf and Mary Preston DNA confirms this. So it's not from the second marriage at all. Just wanted to add my 50c and to let you know sometimes DNA proves a point.
Avongirl
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Apologies, but how does a DNA test prove that Sarah Ogram (nee Rolfe) was a daughter of William Rolfe (Jnr) and Mary Preston?
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Hello again
With dna testing and my husbands Sarah was not Sarah Ogram. She married William Mason and with her family emigrated to Australia. The dna test proves this by showing the siblings related to Sarah and also the dna evidence showing William Rolfe and Mary Preston are the parents of Sarah Rolfe born 1806. Dna does not lie and there you have it proof! Of the discussion. Sarah is the so many times great grandmother of Bryan. Maybe you need to take an ancestry dna test to prove your theory?