RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: mhetfield on Saturday 14 September 13 05:51 BST (UK)
-
Hello everyone,
I was wondering if someone can help me I am looking for a Mary Ann Dowdy Born around 1841 not sure where.
The problem i have is that Mary went by a couple of different names and i was wondering if anyone knows what is her real name.
Mary Ann Dowdy Married John Dowdy 1864 Victoria
on the marrage certificate Mary has her parents as Charles Dowdy and Mary McCartney.
Mary and John Dowdy then have their first child in 1865 Mary Ann Dowdy in Beechworth Victoria
second child is born in 1867 John Dowdy in Beechworth Victoria but on both birth certificates Mary Ann Dowdy has used the name Mary Ann McCartney/Maccartney her mothers name?
John and Mary then go to Kingston SE South Australia there they had a couple more kids but John died and Mary gets married again to a William Brown in 1876 Wellington South Australia and on that marrage certificate Mary is now Mary Thurston not sure where Mary got this one from but i hope someone can help.
Mary Ann Dowdy
Mary Ann McCartney / Maccartney
Mary Ann Thurston
which one is right?
thanks
-
Hi,
MARRIAGE
William Brown age 43 (w)to Mary Ann Dowdy age 38 (w) on 2nd March 1876 at residence of John Sinclair, Kingston. The bride's father was James Thurston. Dist Wel 106/653 Symbol A.
Chris.
-
This is a very long shot but I'm wondering if this could be her death, with a very strange transcription of "THURSTON" and with the wrong forename for the father? (this transcription is from Ancestry so could well have mistakes.) I'm looking at this one as the index entry for the marriage of Mary Ann to William BROWN gives her father's name as William THURSTON.
Victoria, 1895, #9627
Mary Ann BROWN, 61
Death Place: Horsham, Victoria
Father's Name: Thorston Chris
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1834
My thoughts as to the name changes - but only guesses - are that her mother had at least two partners and thus changed her name a couple of times, so that Mary Ann also used a couple of different surnames.
Judith
-
On the births of the three children in the Kingston area, the parents are John Dowdy and Mary Ann Thurston.
Chris.
-
Are these her children being neglected and sent to the Industrial School? Probably not - see below
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/73202968
Mary Ann DOWDY and Eliza Ann DOWDY
Edit to add -
can't be the Mary Ann born in 1865 in Beechworth as she would be too old in 1889
Judith
-
Just in case you don't already have this:
From Trove
FATAL OCCURRENCE. Kingston. June 28. 1873
Yesterday at Coolatoo John Dowdy was terribly crushed between a dray and the side of a house, and died three quarters of an hour after the occurrence.
Chris.
-
TROVE has a couple of other mentions:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/92247203
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/77485481
Re an alleged assault on her in 1876 - some interesting comments re her 11 year-old daughter
Judith
-
A Mary Ann THURSTON had a number of children in the Sale and Cowarr area of Victoria.
Some seem to be registered in the surname of a male person, (or two), others are in the name THURSTON and father UK.
Is it of interest to pursue this line?
Sue
-
"...Mary Ann Dowdy Married John Dowdy 1864 Victoria "
Are they possibly cousins.......in which case John's origins might lead to information about Mary Ann.
What do you have on the MC for John......age, occupation, parents names etc?
And who are the witnesses please.
-
I typed this up when there were no replies and had to go out so apologies if I am repeating any info now on the thread.
Marriage certificates in Victoria should list the following information
Marriages
Date and place of marriage;
name and surnames;
conjugal condition, whether bachelor or spinster, widow or widower,
stating date of decease of former wife or husband;
children by each former marriage;
birthplace;
occupation;
age;
residence (present and usual);
parent's names of each party (including mother's maiden name) and occupation of father;
signatures of the parties and witnesses;
signature of Minister. Prior to 1963 the date of termination of previous marriages of the parties is also shown.
Birth certs -
Births
Date and place of birth;
name of child and whether present or not;
name of parents (including mother's maiden name);
occupation of parents;
ages and birthplace of parents;
date and place of marriage of parents;
previous children of their marriage noting living or deceased;
signature, description and address of the person who gave the information;
names of witnesses;
date and place of registration.
It is possible that the information given at the time of her marriage may have been misunderstood or the minister confused. Her maiden name may not have been DOWDY at all.
Mary Ann Dowdy Married John Dowdy 1864 Victoria
on the marrage certificate Mary has her parents as Charles Dowdy and Mary McCartney.
Even her father's given name is different to the Vic reg and she is born c1838 according to this marriage.
Marriage
BROWN William 43 Status widower Father George BROWN
DOWDY Mary Ann 38 Status Widow Father James THURSTON
2 Mar 1876
At the residence of John Sinclair, Kingston Not at Wellington which is on the Murray River near Tailem Bend. The registration district is Wellington = Wel Symbol A* 106/653
Symbol A*
. Amended Entry. The Purchased Certificate will differ slightly re clerical information
· Deduction of a Registration District
· Deduction of a year where a new year date confusion was detected.
May I suggest you type up all the information on the Victorian marriage certificate and if you don't have any Victorian birth certificates it may be help you to purchase one to check her age and place of birth.
Cheers
Cando
-
This reg also shows Mary Ann's maiden name as THURSTON
Death in Vic
BROWN Diana Rebecca
Father William Mother Mary Ann THURSTON
At Lillimur North 1885 4 Months Reg#2051
Cando
-
Full snip....
The South Australian Register Tues 1 Jul 1873
The Fatal Accident at Coolatoo.— The sad news reached Kingston by mail coach on the night of June 27 that Mr. John Dowdy, in the employ of Mr. A. D. Handyside, at Coolatoo, had been killed by a dray accident The young man was just ready to start for one of the other mail stations with a horse and dray, with his wife and family in the vehicle, when the horse moved off and in endeavouring to stop the animal, the poor fellow got between the dray and the corner of the house, and was crushed to death. The deceased was a son of Mr. Dowdy, a farmer in the neighbourhood of Lacepede Bay.
Death -
DOWDY John
27 Jun 1873 32 years Status not recorded Relative not recorded
Residence Coolatoo Death Place Coolatoo Rob Symbol S 53/181
S. Supplementary Information. Additional unusual information included such as:
· Previous Residence Listed.
· Length of Residence in Colony Stated.
· Deceased Child's Father is Deceased.
· Deceased Maiden Name is Listed.
· Junior/Senior of Deceased is listed.
· Younger Son
· Prison
· State Child.
· Guardian Named.
· Adelaide Destitute or Lunatic Asylum listed ad Residence or Death Place.
· Unusual Death or amount of information on circumstances of Death.
· Sister of Church if known as - religious name stated.
· Fuller details available re deaths at sea - longitude and latitude.
· Final names reduced to initials due to space problems
· Remarriage on post 1906 registrations unusual enough to warrant this.
Cando
-
Birth
BROWN Edward George
23 May 1881
Father William BROWN Mother Mary Ann (formerly) DOWDY (nee) THURSTON
At Avenue Range Wel 262/139
Cando
-
If you have the 1864 Victorian marriage certificate for John and Mary Ann, it will have Mary Ann's father's occupation however she is not consistent with her father's name so it may not be correct. This could be her in 1851 however I also found a marriage in 1839 for a Charles THURSTON and Mary Ann KNIGHT and this is possibly the family below. You need some information from certificates but in this case I wonder if they will be correct.
I also found a 1 year old Mary Ann THURSTON with a Daniel KNIGHT and his wife living in Norfolk however she was noted as born in county ie Norfolk and below it is detailed Mary Ann was born Middlesex.
1851 Census HO107/1467/543/ 37
Living 102 Star Street, Paddington Middlesex
THURSTON Charles Head 33 Carpenter Born Norfolk, Higham
THURSTON Mary Ann Wife 32 Born Norfolk, Barham Broom
THURSTON Mary Ann Dau 10 Born Middlesex, Paddington
THURSTON Emma Dau 8 Born Middlesex, Paddington
THURSTON Charles Son 6 Born Middlesex, Paddington
THURSTON Louisa Dau 3 Born Middlesex, Paddington
THURSTON Diana Dau 1 Born Middlesex, Paddington
THURSTON Rebecca Dau 1 Born Middlesex, Paddington
Possibly Mary Ann's arrival as an Assisted Immigrant to Victoria
http://prov.vic.gov.au/index_search?searchid=24
THURSTON Mary Ann 22 years Arrived Oct 1863 on the THERESA Book 13A Page 252
Cando
-
There is another Mary Ann THURSTON shown as an assisted immigrant into Melbourne but I think she is too old, although shipping records can be inaccurate
THURSTON Mary Ann, age 28, arr 28 MAR 1857 per ship JAMES FERNIE, Book 11, p 338
And another fiche reference for Mary Ann THURSTON on the Theresa (as found by Cando)
THURSTON Mary A, Age 24, 24 OCT 1863, THERESA Book 14, page 265
Noting the death of the 4 month old baby in 1885, also found by Cando - the baby's forenames were Diana Rebecca, which are sibling names for the children on the 1851 census found by Cando. Rebecca is not such an unusual name but Diana is not seen often. May mean something - or nothing!! :-\
Hmm - we seem to have sorted out that her surname at times was THURSTON. However, the question now is - where did the MCARTNEY come from?
Judith
-
Just found an online tree ::) yes I know BUT the compiler has noted in the comments that he/she and other family researchers have agreed that Mary Ann is the dau of Charles THURSTON and Mary KNIGHT.
Also in the comments - All documents with the varying father's names consistently have his occupation as carpenter.
I did wonder if Mary Ann KNIGHT's mother may have been a McCARTNEY.
The OP has been logged in several times but sadly no feedback.
Cando
-
Goodness me, those on-line trees have given me a headache ;D with so many different scenarios for Charles THURSTON and Mary Ann KNIGHT/S.
FreeBMD has a marriage
Marriages Sep qr 1839, registered Bermondsey district.
Charles THURSTON, and on the same page - Mary Ann KNIGHTS
The image of the register shows:
11 August 1839, at the Parish Church, Bermondsey, Surrey
Charles THURSTON, full age, bachelor, carpenter. Father: Jeremiah THURSTON, cooper
Mary Ann KNIGHTS, full age, spinster. Father:Daniel KNIGHTS, farmer
Both give their address as 10 Richardson St.
Witnesses: Joseph Judge?, Mary Rec??
Judith
-
Hello everyone,
Thank you so much for all your replies and sorry about taking so long to get back to you, had to find all the information i have on Mary.
Marriage
26/12/1864
Name Status Birth Place Occupation Age Residence Parents & Occupation
John Dowdy Bachelor Wells England Miner 23 Stanley James Dowdy Labourer
Mary Eagle
Mary Ann Dowdy Spinster London Servant 21 Stanley Charles Dowdy Carpenter
Mary McCartney
Note Mary's Age is either 21 or 24
Birth Certificate
Names Year Sex Father Mother Siblings
John 10/2/1867 male John Dowdy Mary Ann Formerly Macartney Mary Dowdy
Dowdy Miner 25yrs 26yrs London 17 months
Norfolk England Beechworth
Second Marriage
Year Name Age Condition trade Residence Father
2/3/1876 William 43 Widower Labourer Kingston George Brown
Brown
Mary Ann 38 Widow Kingston Charles Thurston
Dowdy
Note: Family info
John and his older brother Richard went to Victoria from South Australia to try their hand at mining. There John met Mary, got married (using the maiden name Dowdy and listing her father as Charles Dowdy) had two kids in Victoria (John and Mary) on these birth certificate she uses Macartney/McCartney as her maiden name.
John and Mary move back to South Australia around the Kingston area where the rest of Johns family have previously settled.
John and Mary had another 3 children using Thurston has her maiden name.
After John's death she married William Brown using Thurston as her maiden name and listing Charles Thurston has her father.
-
I have also found on John Dowdy's marriage certificate (Mary's son)
where John has listed his mothers maiden name as Thurston.
1. So Mary's marriage certificate she is listed as a Dowdy as is her father (Charles Dowdy)
2. First two childrens birth certificate she is listed at Mccartney/Macartney
3. SA children birth certificate she is listed as Thurston
4. Second marriage she is listed as Thurston as is her father (Charles Thurston)
5. On her death certificate her fathers name is listed as Charlest Thorston
-
A strange little set of co-incidences ::) regarding McCartney
On the ship THERESA, same voyage as Mary Ann THURSTON
MCCARTNEY HESTER B. aged 18 Date Oct 1863 per THERESA. 13A 251
McCARTNEY, MARTHA aged 28 Oct 1863 per THERESA to Melbourne, Australia from London Via Southampton
These girls were sisters
Census 1861. Address 16 Shaw Square, Camberwell, Lambeth.
McCARTNEY, MARY ANN (wife)
MCCARTNEY, HESTER (daughter)
Aged 15
Born Peckham, Surrey, England
Occ.Servant
McCARTNEY, Martha,
Occ. scholar
1851, shows the husband as Henry McCARTNEY, House decorator.
Hester married in Victoria.
Marriage of Hester
MCARTNEY Hester Barbara
GRAHAM John
Year: 1864
Reg 4135
She had her first child in Beechworth in 1865.
Sue
-
Where was the marriage of Mary Ann and John? Did Mary Ann sign or use a cross on her marriage certificate? Where was the baby John actually born and who was present at the birth?
I'm wondering - purely speculation - if Mary Ann went to the Beechworth area with one or both of the McCartney girls and somehow used their surname. (Great find, Sue ;D, but I can only see Hester not Martha) I see John and Mary Ann were living at Stanley at the time of their marriage (Stanley is about 9km from Beechworth).
I'll be at the National Library in the next week or so and will have a look at the immigtration fiche. As Mary Ann THURSTON's index entry has 2 references I'm hoping one of them may be the deposition record which should show where she went to.
I note that Cando found this death of a baby:
BROWN Diana Rebecca
Father William Mother Mary Ann THURSTON
At Lillimur North 1885 4 Months Reg#2051
I posted a death earlier which I thought was a bit of a long shot, however Lillimur and Horsham are both in NW Victoria. Still a bit of a long shot and age is wrong, but I feel that the father's name could easily be mistranscribed. Thorston = Thurston and Chris = Chls. My reference came from Ancestry, perhaps somone with better resources might check.
Victoria, 1895, #9627
Mary Ann BROWN, 61
Death Place: Horsham, Victoria
Father's Name: Thorston Chris
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1834
Adding another possible ref for the immigration fiche for Hester - saves me looking it up later ::)
MCCARTHY ESTHER B 18 OCT 1863 THERESA 14 263
Judith
-
but I can only see Hester not Martha) I see John and Mary Ann were living at Stanley at the time of their marriage (Stanley is about 9km from Beechworth). Judith
The immigration record for Hester came from -
http://prov.vic.gov.au/index_search?searchid=24
The record for Martha came from the immigration collection on Ancestry.
I cannot locate Hester McCARTNEY's on Ancestry nor Martha McCARTNEY's on prov.vic ::)
I have found the prov.vic immigration search options quite unreliable over the last year or so and have not yet discovered the way to search the whole passenger list of a particular ship as used to be possible previously.
Regarding Martha McCARTNEY I have not turned up any further records for her in Victoria to date.
Sue
ADDING As has already been noted, the first DOWDY child was at Beechworth in 1865, same as the first birth to HESTER GRAHAM
-
Mary and John were married in Beechworth, on the certificate Mary signs her own name as Mary Ann Dowdy. It is very clear and easy to read. Baby John was born in Sebastopol on the 4/2/1867 and registered in Beechworth 23/2/1867, John Dowdy (Snr) was the informant and a Mrs Davis (nurse) was the witness.
I am fairly confident that the Mary Ann Brown that died in Horsham is the one in question, her age is slightly off (which is the case in all of the certificates) however she has had the same husbands, children and Daughter in law, as well as having family settled in the area. There are a few articles and family notices about her on Trove.
I haven't done a lot of research into Diana Rebecca Brown however given the parents names, dates and area, I thought it a likely daughter of Mary ann. On the Digger database it does list the mothers, fathers name as Chls Thorston, which may have been mistaken for Chris Thorston.
I also found on Digger the Mary Ann Thurston in the Cowwar/Sale/Rosedale area has the births of her children with unknown fathers and Thurston as a Surname however there are identical listings for all of her children with the father and the fathers Surname completed and so far they don't seem to be related.
-
Sue just enter the ship's name and the year or month if you know it. I always enter display 500 names and all the passenger names will be displayed.
http://prov.vic.gov.au/index_search?searchid=24
Cando
-
Mary and John were married in Beechworth, on the certificate Mary signs her own name as Mary Ann Dowdy. It is very clear and easy to read. Baby John was born in Sebastopol on the 4/2/1867 and registered in Beechworth 23/2/1867, John Dowdy (Snr) was the informant and a Mrs Davis (nurse) was the witness.
Perhaps Mary thought as she was now married she was Mary Ann DOWDY. I've seen it before on registrations with the married name crossed out and maiden name inserted. Just because it is on a certificate does not make it correct.
So Mary Ann was not the informant on the birth registrations. No wonder there are errors.
Cando
-
Sorry, the fathers name on the Mary Ann Browns (in Horsham) Death was listed as Chls Thorston, not on the certificate of Diana Rebecca.
The Marriage certificate also clearly has her Fathers name Charles Dowdy and Mother Mary McCartney, I'm not saying it is correct, just I'm not sure which is :-\
-
I am fairly confident that the Mary Ann Brown that died in Horsham is the one in question, her age is slightly off (which is the case in all of the certificates) however she has had the same husbands, children and Daughter in law, as well as having family settled in the area. There are a few articles and family notices about her on Trove.
Do you actually have her death certificate?
Cando
-
Sue just enter the ship's name and the year or month if you know it. I always enter display 500 names and all the passenger names will be displayed.
http://prov.vic.gov.au/index_search?searchid=24
Cando
Well, that is exactly what I have always done and today was the first time in ages it has worked for me ::)
Performance for me is intermittent at best!
S
-
I haven't done a lot of research into Diana Rebecca Brown however given the parents names, dates and area, I thought it a likely daughter of Mary ann.
Of course it is Mary Ann's daughter.
Births
BROWN Diana Rebecca
9 Jan 1885
Father William BROWN Mother Mary Ann THURSTON
At Avenue Range nr Kingston Wel S343/36
Death in Vic
BROWN Diana Rebecca
Father William Mother Mary Ann THURSTON
At Lillimur North 1885 4 Months Reg#2051
Cando
-
Sue just enter the ship's name and the year or month if you know it. I always enter display 500 names and all the passenger names will be displayed.
http://prov.vic.gov.au/index_search?searchid=24
Cando
Well, that is exactly what I have always done and today was the first time in ages it has worked for me ::)
Performance for me is intermittent at best!
S
I agree Sue. I don't use the shipping indexes on PROV a lot only the Wills and Admon Index. :-X Many links on their how to guides which formerly linked to online indexes no longer function and some indexes have been removed. I've given up contacting them.
Cando
-
mhetfield to help clarify matters would you please refer to bdm registrations as such as registrations are not certificates. Saves us asking if you have certificates etc.
Cando
-
Mmm wonder why an inquest into her death was necessary?
Inquest Index
BROWN Mary A
At Horsham 1895 Ref#984
If Mary was buried at the Horsham Cemetery there is no headstone or marker for her or husband William.
Cando
-
Mmm wonder why an inquest into her death was necessary?
Inquest Index
BROWN Mary A
At Horsham 1895 Ref#984
Cando
The death certificate would certainly throw light on that ;D
Sue
-
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0w4c/
This explains it.
-
The Horsham Times 16 Aug 1895
..has account of the death of Mary Ann BROWN....61 years old....daughter in law Mrs DOWDY.......been treated for epilepsy
-
Hi Wivenhoe,
That is the item to which I have posted the link above. ;D
Sue
-
Seeing I have spent time transcribing the two news items while they have now been linked, I will leave them on the board.
Where was her husband Wm and why was she living alone in a rented house when she had relatives in the town?
The Horsham Times Tues 13 Aug 1895
A married women named Brown, who had been for some weeks living alone a house in McPherson street, rented from Miss Byrne, was last evening found dead, lying on tile floor in her room. Miss Byrne, who had been accustomed to bestow upon the woman kindly attentions, missed her and, looking in at the house, made the discovery of her death. From the appearance of the body it is judged that the woman died in a fit. She is believed to have relatives living in the town. Miss Byrne informed the police of her discovery, and Sergeant Molyneux reported the matter to the district coroner. A magisterial enquiry will probably be held to-day.
The Horsham Times Fri 16 Aug 1895
MAGISTERIAL ENQUIRY.
On Tuesday afternoon Mr Twycross J.P. held a magisterial enquiry into the circumstances of the death of Mary Ann Brown, a married women, 61 years of age, who, as already reported in the Times was found dead on the floor in a room of the house she occupied in McPherson street. Miss Teresa Byrne, who found the body, stated that she had been attracted to the house by the fact that the blind was down. She called the deceased by name, and receiving no answer, opened the door, which was unlocked. She then discovered the woman lying on the floor, apparently dead. The police were called sent and on Trooper Downey examining the body, then still warm, he found life to he extinct. The woman was last seen alive on Sunday by Mrs. Brett, a neighbor, and she then appeared to be in her usual health. On the Saturday, however, she had complained to both her daughter-in-law. Mrs. Dowdy, and to Mrs. Brett, of feeling unwell, and while Mr. Dowdy was at the house she had a slight fit. Mrs. Dowdy called at the house about four o'clock or Monday evening. There was then no one at home and the house door was locked. It was six o'clock when Miss Byrne made the discovery, so it is evident that death occurred between the hour of four and six. Dr. Young deposed that the woman had been under his care for some time, suffering full epilepsy, and on examination of the body, upon which there were no marks of violence led him to conclude that she had died in an epileptic fit. A finding in accordance, with the medical testimony was arrived at. The deceased had several relatives in the district who at arranged for the funeral, which took place on Wednesday. The house it which she had resided was well provisioned and she appeared to have wanted for nothing.
Cando
-
Thanks, Cando, Wivenhoe and Sue for the info re Mary Ann's death. Nothing came up for me in TROVE :( Do we have a death for William?
I think we have her life pretty well sorted now :D
Judith
-
On the marriage certificate for Mary and John (which I do have a copy)
Mary could well have accidentally signed her name as Dowdy
but then why would she write her father's name as Charles Dowdy not Charles Thurston?
Mary also lists her mother as Mary McCartney only to later use McCartney as her maiden name.
I could see that she may of used her mothers last name (McCartney) to avoid confusion, as Mary was supposedly already a Dowdy, which would explain the two children's births in Victoria (which I do have the certificates for)
The first use of Thurston came from South Australia, where John and Mary have the rest of there children, Mary using Thurston as her maiden name (please note that John Snr died when all of the children are quite young the eldest being 8). John Jnr states on his marriage certificate (which I do have) his mothers maiden name is Mary Thurston.
Mary died in Horsham using Thurston as her maiden name and Charles Thurston as her fathers name but no mother listed on the death certificate (which I do have)
So is the marriage between John and Mary wrong? the two births in Victoria wrong? or is the births and marriage (to William Brown) in South Australia wrong?
Could it be that John didn't want his family to know that he married a Dowdy?
-
My opinion for what it's worth.
Obviously some sort of confusion when the minister/priest was filling out the marriage registration. Perhaps Mary Ann thought as she was now legally married, that her name was Mary Ann DOWDY. Perhaps the minister assumed that was her maiden name. Mary would not have written the information but responded to questions by the officiating minister/priest.
According to you, information on Vic birth cert not given by Mary Ann but by her husband.
Perhaps the South Australian local registrar was clearer with his questions.
So is the marriage between John and Mary wrong? the two births in Victoria wrong? or is the births and marriage (to William Brown) in South Australia wrong?
Mary died in Horsham using Thurston as her maiden name and Charles Thurston as her fathers name but no mother listed on the death certificate (which I do have)
That information would have been helpful earlier in the thread ::) ::).
Would you like to type up all the information on Mary's death certificate and I would particularly like to see a snip of the column that shows her father's names and profession as the index does not show his name as Charles. The abbreviation for Charles is Chas.
Cando
-
Do you have the certificate for the first baby - Mary Ann DOWDY b 1865? Could you please transcribe it, including the place of birth, the informant and the person in attendance?
I agree with Cando that confusion is not uncommon on certificates where the informant is not quite sure whose mother/father/whatever is being requested. As has been said it is possible that Mary Ann thought her name was DOWDY, but this does not explain the names she has given for her parents. Did she sign her name or mark with a cross? Illiteracy would mean, of course, that she was unable to check the record.
This search is most intriguing. :)
Judith
-
Sorry cando it is difficult to be certain about the people I have found likely as they are given such discrepancies on the certificates.
the birth certificates in Victoria did list John as the informant, perhaps you are right and John did get Mary's name wrong. it would be amazing that they had more children after John not knowing Mary's name for 3 years. I'm not sure I would be so lucky ;)
if Thurston is Mary's rightful maiden name and Charles Thurston her father what a lot of mistakes to have happened to one woman.
sorry it does not say Charles I just enlarged on the computer ::) it actually said Christian name and underneath not known, occupation not known mother not known so that is probably where Chris came from! it could be read as Thurston or Thorston it is difficult to read.
the cause of death is the same as the inquest I think you have viewed? (epileptic fit)
remember the information given on a death certificate is NOT given by the person in question but by living relative.
I guess I just don't have efficient evidence for any of the three surnames to say it is one or the other with certainty, Mary does use Thurston on more certificates then any other name however there is no mention of it until they relocate to South Australia.
Judith, I do have the certificate apart from the alternative spelling of McCartney everything else is pretty much the same.
Mary did sign her marriage certificate as Mary Ann Dowdy quite clearly as she did with other certificates using different surnames so I guess the search continues!
-
Meet field
Perhaps you will not mind me noting that it has been suggested a couple of times on the thread that you transcribe (that is write word for word) what is on some of the certificates.
It has also been suggested you post a small section of one.
If you would take the time to do this by way of following advice given, there may be something the more experienced eye might see.
This transcribing would mean you write exactly what is written in each and every column.
Sue
-
Hi there,
That's a very good point that Sue is kindly mentioning. May I share some of my oral history .... Several of my ancestors across a couple of generations worked for the NSW Registrar General's Office, some at fairly senior levels. So you would hope they knew the ropes. When my Great Uncle registered the birth of my Uncle, my Great Uncle used as the maiden name for his wife, HIS OWN mum's maiden name ! He did this for the first three of his children. After that, his WIFE did the registering. ::)
I ought to say no more, but he was well educated..., he was so well educated that his handwriting is so full of flourishes that it causes many issues for transcribers....
PS, adding (cause I forgot to include this bit orginally) Gt Uncle's mother and mother in law both LIVED with them ;D ;D ;D
Cheers, JM
-
I haven't viewed the inquest file. I have transcribed information from the Inquest INDEX The file is only available for reading in the PROV reading rooms. PROV do not offer a copying service. You can engage an agent to do this for you.
Just had a thought. IF Hester Barbara MCARTNEY and Mary Ann THURSTON travelled to Beechworth together and married in the same year [well on the marriage index they both married in 1864 but we only know the place for Mary Ann] is it possible they married on the same day? Yes I know very speculative but that's how one needs to approach research initially.
As you are aware there are a number of marriages on the same page of the register when you download the 'image' from the Vic Dept of Justice. Would you please have a look at the other marriages on the page. My thoughts are.....if they married on the same day the minister may have copied the wrong information from the parish register.
Would you consider that John DOWDY or Mary Ann THURSTON had free flowing signatures ie did their signatures appear to be written confidently or did Mary Ann copy her new husband's surname. If they were both illiterate and there is inaccurate information on the marriage certificate, John may have taken the certificate to the local registrar when registering his children's births as he may not have been able to give the required info eg date of marriage, etc etc. and the incorrect information is once again entered.
I would suggest the local bdm registrar in South Australia was more diligent with his questioning hence Mary Ann's correct name ie Mother Mary Ann (formerly) DOWDY (nee) THURSTON
Genealogy is not an exact science and I think you need to approach this research with a bit of commonsense as well as transcribe all the information on the certificates.
Cando
-
You are one smart lady Cando!
The marriage cert for Hester is on line (on a tree for Hester Barbara MCCARTNEY) and guess whose is next to it?? However, not on the same day - Hester and John GRAHAM on 4 Nov 1864 and Mary and John DOWDY on 26 December, 1864.
Both marriages at The Manse Beechworth, according to the forms of the Presbyterian church, married by John K (H?) McMillan. John Dowdy says he is a member? of the Church of England. Mary Ann, as mehtfield has already said, signs her name clearly with the surname DOWDY, however her writing does not appear very steady and she uses a lower case 'd' for the first letter of her surname - 'dowdy'.
Unfortunately I cannot decipher the witnesses' names for either marriage - except for a Robert BURNS for Hester and John - but they do not appear to be each other (if you get what I mean!)
Hester needed consent of the Guardian XXXX(cannot decipher) as she was under age.
Just a point of interest - Hester's mother's married name was Mary Ann MCCARTNEY.
Sue, Hester's sister, Martha MCCARTNEY, was in Peckham, London with her mother in 1871 so I think Ancestry may not have the correct shipping information.
Cheers, Judith
-
Wow what luck.
There is a note either by the local registrar or minister at the right of the entry. Mmm wonder what it says.
I would definitely describe both signatures as being from a possibly uneducated persons, especially Mary Ann's.
Cando
-
And the comment - I wonder if the complete comment is on the OP's copy of the certificate.
-
Fingers crossed this works I'm not sure how to do it :) everything you have been asking for.
yes you are right about Hester Barbara MCCARTNEY it is on the same page as Mary's
So the theory is that Mary signed her name as Dowdy (by mistake) and then Charles's last name is mistakenly written as Dowdy?
Then they also mistakenly wrote Mary's mothers name from the entry above then swapped her name from Alderton to McCartney.
Then when John and Mary had kids John took the marriage certificate in and again a mistake was made from Mary Dowdy to Mary McCartney
then when they get to South Australia all the mistakes seem to right themselves
-
I think father of the bride is recorded as Charles THURSTON
Cheers, JM
-
Well done, mehtfield :)
John DOWDY's signature looks the same on the birth and marriage certs. I will be pleased to see the immigration fiche as I wonder if Mary Ann knew Hester MCCARNEY and, for whatever reason, used the surname MCCARTNEY.
Do you have Mary Ann on the 1861 England census? I can't see her at all.
I note John DOWDY's place of birth as Norfolk on the baby's BC and "Wells" on the MC. I assume then that he meant what is now know as Wells-next-the-sea in Norfolk.
Judith
-
Hi Judith,
you are right John was from Wells-next-the-sea in Norfolk we was born there and came over on the ship ( Ramillies ) it left for Australia around 1848
no sorry I haven't been able to find Mary Ann on the 1861 census
-
Hi JM
Yes I would say it is Charles Thurston as well and that is the second marriage certificate when she married to William brown.
Charles is the first name on both marriage certificates
-
Ahhhhhhhhhhh - no wonder I couldn't see John in 1851.
At least John's parents and origin are correct on the marriage certificate. FreeReg has the marriage of John DOWDY and Mary EAGLE, 21 December 1834 at St Nicholas, Wells-next-the sea with this note: This entry has been duplicated as DOWDY is written as an alternative spelling of DOUGHDY. Groom signed DOWDY I note also that there are many entries for the surname DOUGHTY in Norfolk.
Judith
-
Hi Judith,
I have found that information as well I'm not sure if they may have changed the spelling.
John DOWDY and Mary EAGLE ( John is really James)
James's parents are Richard Dowdy and Mary Neal
-
Again just thoughts---
Errors have occurred for this woman due to her copying the wrong words , as an illiterate person, on "event" documents. Perhaps this copying was from the marriage on the same page in the book (Hester McCARTNEY whose mother was Mary McCARTNEY)
-She certainly copied the words above hers when she signed her name as DOWDY I think the problem continued with McCARTNEY.
I agree with Cando and Judith, the writing is a struggle for both parties and they may have had little or no idea of the meaning. Many at that time could write a little (name city , age etc.) but could not actually read.
John has taken his previous event documents to register births and the errors have been repeated and compounded as the Registrar just copied them.
Finally, getting to SA, the officiating person (as Cando suggests) actually made a clear verbal inquiry and the facts of name were, for the first time, close to correct.
Sue
-
I wrote earlier in the thread.
Just found an online tree ::) yes I know BUT the compiler has noted in the comments that he/she and other family researchers have agreed that Mary Ann is the dau of Charles THURSTON and Mary KNIGHT.
Perhaps they have more information that we have found however I agree with them.
Cando
-
Mehtfield, on the marriage record that is in a tree for the MCCARNEY girl the marriage record for Mary Ann and John is also shown. That image shows that the minister had written a comment on the right hand side of the page outside the usual area. As you have that record I'm wondering if the minister's comment is visible?
Just to get my own thoughts tidied up - what happened to William BROWN?
Cheers, Judith
-
I wrote earlier in the thread.
Just found an online tree ::) yes I know BUT the compiler has noted in the comments that he/she and other family researchers have agreed that Mary Ann is the dau of Charles THURSTON and Mary KNIGHT.
Perhaps they have more information that we have found however I agree with them.
Cando
Yes.
I believe the McCartney surname was an error due to illiteracy and confusion on Mary THURSTON's part.
Sue
-
hi judith,
no i can not read it any better, someone with more experienced eyes might be able to read it.
just a question i wonder if Mary Thurston came to Australia with the McCartney girls maybe they were related maybe her mother was a McCartney.
i have found a death for a Charles Thurston (1869) and a Mary Thurston (1866) in south Australia
on SA BDM and also on TROVE but i don't know how to add it to here
-
Here it is,
it looks to me as it says,
Note name father of bride & bride the (N something) Dowdy JK
-
If you have the 1864 Victorian marriage certificate for John and Mary Ann, it will have Mary Ann's father's occupation however she is not consistent with her father's name so it may not be correct. This could be her in 1851 however I also found a marriage in 1839 for a Charles THURSTON and Mary Ann KNIGHT and this is possibly the family below. You need some information from certificates but in this case I wonder if they will be correct.
I also found a 1 year old Mary Ann THURSTON with a Daniel KNIGHT and his wife living in Norfolk however she was noted as born in county ie Norfolk and below it is detailed Mary Ann was born Middlesex.
1851 Census HO107/1467/543/ 37
Living 102 Star Street, Paddington Middlesex
THURSTON Charles Head 33 Carpenter Born Norfolk, Higham
THURSTON Mary Ann Wife 32 Born Norfolk, Barham Broom
THURSTON Mary Ann Dau 10 Born Middlesex, Paddington
THURSTON Emma Dau 8 Born Middlesex, Paddington
THURSTON Charles Son 6 Born Middlesex, Paddington
THURSTON Louisa Dau 3 Born Middlesex, Paddington
THURSTON Diana Dau 1 Born Middlesex, Paddington
THURSTON Rebecca Dau 1 Born Middlesex, Paddington
Possibly Mary Ann's arrival as an Assisted Immigrant to Victoria
http://prov.vic.gov.au/index_search?searchid=24
THURSTON Mary Ann 22 years Arrived Oct 1863 on the THERESA Book 13A Page 252
Cando
hi judith,
no i can not read it any better, someone with more experienced eyes might be able to read it.
just a question i wonder if Mary Thurston came to Australia with the McCartney girls maybe they were related maybe her mother was a McCartney.
i have found a death for a Charles Thurston (1869) and a Mary Thurston (1866) in south Australia
on SA BDM and also on TROVE but i don't know how to add it to here
Bit old to be Mary Ann's parents ie if that is her with her family on the 1851 census.
Mary Ann KNIGHT/S was born c1819 - this lady c1794
THURSTON Mary
19 Oct 1866 72 years Status Married Relative Charles THURSTON [Husband]
Residence Coxs Creek Death Place Coxs Creek Nai 25/172
This Charles born c1790
THURSTON Charles
29 Oct 1869 79 years Status not recorded Relative not recorded
Residence Bridgewater Death Place: Bridgewater Nai 36/262
Cando
-
I'll try to get to the NLA by Saturday and the immigration fiche should at least show if Mary Ann THURSTON and (H)ester MCCARTNEY have consecutive numbers, which would mean they had probably booked passage together. As they were both in London, and both servants it's possible they knew each other in London. It's also possible that they made friends on the long journey.
My feeling is that there is no blood relationship between the girls but that either Mary Ann used Hester's mother's name for some reason or that it was a mistake by the minister.
The Charles and Mary Ann THURSTON who seem to be parents to your Mary Ann are still alive in London in 1871. It was worth following up though.
Judith
-
Judith this may save you searching at NLA.
Mary Ann is listed as a passenger aboard the THERESA, arrived Victoria, October 1863 from London via Southampton.She is described as passenger number 270, from London, aged 24 years single, Church of England, housemaid, reads and writes, and was engaged to work at the Parsonage in Richmond for 3 years.
She was 1 year in 1841 census when she was with her grandparents, Daniel and Leah KNIGHTS and family at Barham Broom, Norfolk.
If this is her birth then would only be one year of age in Jun 1841.
Births Dec 1839
THURSTON Mary Ann Bethnal Green 2/4
I think Mary Ann's mother died in Jun qtr 1867 and her father married another Mary Ann [possibly CASEY] the same year.
The 1871 census lists Charles wife, Mary Ann as 42 years born Middlesex, City ie born c1829. Mary Ann KNIGHTS was born c1819 Barham Brook, Norfolk.
I'll type it all up tomorrow as bit late for me. If you don't want the info or you can access it yourself just say so.
Cando
-
Judith this may save you searching at NLA.
Mary Ann is listed as a passenger aboard the THERESA, arrived Victoria, October 1863 from London via Southampton.She is described as passenger number 270, from London, aged 24 years single, Church of England, housemaid, reads and writes, and was engaged to work at the Parsonage in Richmond for 3 years.
She was 1 year in 1841 census when she was with her grandparents, Daniel and Leah KNIGHTS and family at Barham Broom, Norfolk.
If this is her birth then would only be one year of age in Jun 1841.
Births Dec 1839
THURSTON Mary Ann Bethnal Green 2/4
I think Mary Ann's mother died in Jun qtr 1867 and her father married another Mary Ann [possibly CASEY] the same year.
The 1871 census lists Charles wife, Mary Ann as 42 years born Middlesex, City ie born c1829. Mary Ann KNIGHTS was born c1819 Barham Brook, Norfolk.
I'll type it all up tomorrow as bit late for me. If you don't want the info or you can access it yourself just say so.
Cando
Yes, I agree with the second marriage for Charles THURSTON.
He continued having children with the second Mary-Ann and on the 1881 census there is a 6 year old Jessie as well as some older. She is most unlikely to be the child of Mary-Ann KNIGHTS.
Charles is still a carpenter in 1881
Sue
-
And he died in 1884. Will post the research if needed
Cheers
Cando
-
Hi cando,
I was just wondering where you got that information from?
I have looked on Victorian archives and I have found two Mary's is the same person?
Family Name G/Name Age Month Year Ship Book Page
THURSTON MARY A 24 OCT 1863 THERESA 14 265
THURSTON MARY ANN 22 OCT 1863 THERESA 13A 252
-
Hi there I just found another Mary ann Thurston
Family Name Given Name Age Month Year Ship Port Fiche Page
THURSTON MARY A 18 MAR 1857 JAMES FERNIE B 121 008
-
Hi there I just found another Mary ann Thurston
Family Name Given Name Age Month Year Ship Port Fiche Page
THURSTON MARY A 18 MAR 1857 JAMES FERNIE B 121 008
This finding has been noted previously in the thread.
I think it was seen as not relevant. Perhaps if you browse back through your thread ........
The Parsonage Richmond may have been at 97 Bridge Road Richmond. Further research would be needed to be certain.
Epworth Hospital is in that spot now. I think.
By way of interest, Hester Barbara M.CARTNEY spent some years in her later life living in Richmond, according to the Electoral Rolls..
Sue
-
Yes you are right I am sorry
but when Judith posted it she had this persons age as 28
on the Index to Unassisted Inward Passenger Lists to Victoria 1852-1923 it has her age as 18.
Judith could this be a typo or did you find this information elsewhere?
-
This woman appears on both Assisted and Unassisted listings.
They are the same person both times.
I have seen this double listing frequently and perhaps someone else can explain it ::)
The Assisted list gives her age as 28
Unassisted as 18
You can peruse this for yourself.
Curious :P
Would love to know where Hester was assigned upon arrival.
Sue
-
The Mary Ann THURSTON on the James Fernie is also on PROV's Assisted Passenger index with age of 28.
Mary Ann THURSTON, 28, arr MAR 1857, per JAMES FERNIE Book 11 p 338
As I had found her on that list I didn't even think to look on the Unassisted index :-[
Mary A THURSTON, 18 arr MAR 1857 per JAMES FERNIE, from a British port. Fiche 121, p008
Off to the NLA on Saturday to have a look at the records for these three girls. ;D
Snap, Sue but as I've put in the refs I'll leave this up coz it saves me finding them again ::)
Judith
-
This woman appears on both Assisted and Unassisted listings.
They are the same person both times.
I have seen this double listing frequently and perhaps someone else can explain it ::)
I have but TWO ancestors who arrive via Victorian Ports. They are among the 'newest' of my migrating ancestors, and they arrived in the mid 1850s, .... (gold fever, two illiterate brothers, born in the 1840s,). They too are listed on both indexes. So I too would be interested to learn the explanation for the double listing.
Cheers, JM
-
This is what I found on the records at the NLA
Mary A THURSTON, 18 arr MAR 1857 per JAMES FERNIE, from a British port.
Fiche 121, p008 shows:
THURSTON, Mary A, age (listed in column for single women) is difficult to read - could be 14, 15 or 18 with the units figure being faintly overwritten so that it looks to me definitely that the record shows in her teens, and 18 seems more likely. Occupation is listed as "Cook" and she is from England. Unfortunately this record only shows whether the person is English, Scotch or Irish, so no locality information.
This one from the Disposal List (Book 11, p338)
THURSTON, Mary Ann, Cook,
Native place: Suffolk
Curch of England, can read and write, age 28 (clearly written)
Disposed to: Mr (perhaps Mrs?) Stephens, Prahran on the 17th; wage: 35 (presumably pounds). The wage is higher than that for the women listed as General Servants.
Now for the women on the Theresa.
From Bk 13A, p 251, per ship Theresa
MCCartney, Hester B, 18, housemaid,
Employer: Mrs J Franklin, 43 Collins St West, Wages 12 (pound)
From Bk 13A, p 252, per ship Theresa (Cando has already listed this)
THURSTON, Mary Ann, 22, housemaid
Employer: Mrs Perks, Parsonage Richmond, Wages 20 pound
From Book 14 p265
THURSTON, Mary Ann, housemaid, 24
Native County; London, Church of England, can read and write
Employer: Mrs Perks, Parsonage Richmond, Wages 20 pounds
MCARTHY, Esther B, housemaid, (I am sure this is the same person as Hester MCCARTNEY))
Native County; London, Church of England, can read and write,
Employer: Mrs Franklin, 43 Collins St West, Wages 12 (pound)
The woman listed next, under Esther MCCARTHY is Euphemia McDONALD from Perth Scotland and is also employed by Mrs Franklin.
So we are no further forward, except that we now have two possible Mary A THURSTONs ::) However, the one who arrived in 1857 has a 'native place' of Suffolk which does not match any of the information for the second Mary Ann. There is no record to show whether H/ester B MCARTNEY/MCCARTHY knew Mary Ann THURSTON but surely the co-incidence of them both marrying in Beechworth is of some importance.
Judith
-
Re listings on both Assisted and Unassisted Records - the records for Mary A THURSTON, 18 arr MAR 1857 per JAMES FERNIE, from a British port are interesting.
The first listing that I looked at was from the Unassisted records.
With regard to this listing being for "Unassisted Passengers" there is a comment at end of the passenger list for the James Fernie that "The passengers, James Fernie, being Government immigrants are exempt from the payment of passenger rate." There is also a comment from the ship's master "...............list are passengers within the meaning of the act of the governor and the Legislative Council of Victoria passed in the eighteenth? year of her present majesty's reign, entitled" This statement is blotted so can't read the bit where I have put dots.
A statement with the same wording is attached to a passenger list for the Gypsy Bride (arriving at about the same date) so it seems that an immigrant is not always an immigrant which goes some way to explaining the contradictory recording on Assited and Unassisted lists. This list of passengers is compiled before leaving and I hazard a guess that the legal meaning of 'passenger may have been different between UK an\d the Colony of Victoria.
There is also a handwritten note on the James Fernie list stating that names and descriptions of the passengers "are also listed in the register of Assisted Immigrants".
Judith
-
That,s terrific information, Judith.
A Trove search "Perks parsonage Richmond" turns up advertisements in the Argus for staff at the Parsonage from as early as 1863.
I am on the tablet at the moment and it won,t download the full image, but others may see something of interest about Perks.
Sue
-
http://trove.nla.gov.au/work/152480712?q=%22Rev+Perks%22&l-availability=y&c=picture&versionId=166190623
Here is picture of Rev Perks.
There I also a letter from with the Parsonage as its address.
Not of great relevance to our search, but I think interesting just the same. :)
Sue
-
Hi all
Thank you Judith that is great work thank you for taking your time to do all that,
I have been talking to a lot of people with Mary Thurston they do all believe that it is the same person but no one can tell me that if Mary's last name is Thurston why did she use McCartney as her last name or as her mothers name,
there must be more to this story
-
Hi all
Thank you Judith that is great work thank you for taking your time to do all that,
I have been talking to a lot of people with Mary Thurston they do all believe that it is the same person but no one can tell me that if Mary's last name is Thurston why did she use McCartney as her last name or as her mothers name,
there must be more to this story
Many on this thread have put forward very plausible theories as to why this happened.
Have you read them?
I doubt you will find more on public record.
Sue
-
I think you need to read ALL the thread again. McCARTNEY was the marriage registration before Mary's in the register and there has been some confusion when entering Mary's details. Thank goodness the South Australian registrar was more diligent. Illiteracy obviously played a part.
Genealogy is not an exact science and I think you need to approach this research with a bit of commonsense.
You are reading far too much into it. A number of other family history researchers have agreed that the Victorian registrations are inaccurate.
You have not managed to decipher the note in the margin of the 1864 marriage. This may be an important clue.
Her mother's name was KNIGHTS.
Cando
-
thank you to everyone who has tried to help.
Thanks again Judith I do appreciate the help and the other like minded people who have commented on my post i was just curious as to why the different names being used i can not just assume that they were all clerical errors, assumptions are how mistakes are made
It turn out a lovely lady emailed me some documents today explaining why Mary choose to use the different names.
-
Hi,
I wonder if you will be sharing the contents of the kind lady's documents. I 'm sure all here will be most curious to know what caused the change of name for Mary.
The kind person who emailed you must have some amazing knowledge we have not found in our efforts here.
Sue
-
I'm seconding Sue's request - please can you give us an idea as to why the name was changed? Did she know Hester MCCARTNEY?
If you do not feel comfortable publicly commenting on something which happened so long ago I would appreciate a PM.
It's great to hear that you have an explanation and, I guess, some extra information found over the course of this thread through R'chat.
Cheers, Judith :)
-
I am pleased to read that you now know why the name was changed, and I too would like to support Sue's request.
Cheers, JM
(I have several Bill Brown chaps in my own 19thC Aussie tree, one has a wife by name of Mary Ann and she was illiterate and had been widowed several times over before she married Bill)
-
Well this was an interesting read. :) Just happened to stumble upon it. Mary Ann Thurston is my hubby's 2nd grt grandmother and her daughter Mary Ann Dowdy his grt grandmother.
I think the major problem with all of this is illiteracy and incorrect transcriptions.
This part of the family has taken me and helpers some time to sort out in the past, think I have it pretty much sorted, I am in Cando's camp re pretty much everything.
mhetfield, if you don't mind, where do you fit in this family please?
Now if someone can tell me what happened to William Brown that would be good.
-
Hi tickford,
I am the great X2 grandson of John Dowdy who was born in the Beechworth area.
I have got some information about William Brown not much but I will have to find it give me some time and ill get back to you.
The thing I wanted to know was it Mary Ann Thurston/Dowdy/McCartney what one is it.
I know now and the reason why she used the different names. You can not just say a person can not read and write because she put down different names, if its in her hand writing I like to think she knew what she was doing.
-
Mary Ann Thurston was her name, daughter of Charles Deeks Thurston and Mary Ann Knights.
There was/is a theory that she gave conflicting names because she was contracted for 3 yrs to the parsonage at Richmond but got married 12 months after arriving and being that she was paid for 3 yrs it was/is felt that she was trying to dodge the authorities, however, that is something we will not really ever be able to confirm.
Although it is said she was able to read and write I wonder how good that really was because her signature doesn't really look like someone that is confident in writing.
Oh and yes if you have anything you can tell me about William Brown that would be appreciated as I have nothing but the marriage for them.