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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Bikegirl on Saturday 14 September 13 02:36 BST (UK)
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Wondering if anyone can lead me in the right direction.
Trying to find details of a Mary Ann Flaherty.
Had an legitimate daughter Hannah Sophia born 1858 ? Morpeth. Hannah married in 1875 to a Thomas Bratby in Newtown. Details on marriage certificate show name as Hannah Flawday daughter of Mary Ann Flawday and John Philps . Mary Ann married ??? Roels sometime after 1875 and before 1878 as son was named Robert Laurence ROELS Bratby was born in 1878 at Newtown. Another child Percy died 1902 at Gulgong and funeral notice was inserted by his grandmother Mary Roels. Have searched BDM no record of a Flaherty / Flawday marrying a Roels. :(
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Mary Ann married ??? Roels sometime after 1875 and before 1878 as son was named Robert Laurence ROELS Bratby was born in 1878 at Newtown. Another child Percy died 1902 at Gulgong
Robert and Percy were registered as the children of Thomas and Hannah, not Mary Ann, or have I misunderstood you?
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/cgi-bin/Index/IndexingOrder.cgi/search?event=births
Debra :)
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OK, I understand now ... ;D
Debra :)
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Do you have Mary Roels death cert ... that should give you where aand when re her marriages IF the informant knew that detail
Cheers JM
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Yep- they are Hannah & Thomas's. but was confirmation that Mary's name had changed to Roels . as on marriage certificate was Flawday. Some of the other children's birth certificate state Hannah surname was Flaherty.
I should have put Hannah was illegitimate daughter of Mary.
No can't find a death certificate for Mary Roels
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No can't find a death certificate for Mary Roels
Have you eliminated : Mary AA ROELS, dau of John and Jane at GRANVILLE 1914 (#6043)
Cheers, JM
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No haven't elimated but haven't been able to connect either. Also looking at B/C born 1840 to Patrick Flaherty and Anne in Parramatta NSW
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Sands 1877 Sydney Alpha Directory
P.J. ROELS, Camden St NEWTOWN
Berhard FLAHERTY, Greek St, GLEBE
J FLAHERTY, 4 Hordens buildings, Parker St
Elizabeth FLAHERTY, 44 Denham St
NONE listed with surname BRATBY or FLAWDAY
Re that 1914 dc, for Mary Roels, it should give you sufficient details to confirm if she was a married woman, AND the names of the husband/s when and where married and ages of her children of each marriage....
Wondering if anyone can lead me in the right direction.
Trying to find details of a Mary Ann Flaherty.
........ Mary Ann Flawday and John Philps . Mary Ann married ??? Roels sometime after 1875 and before 1878 as son was named Robert Laurence ROELS ......
Details of her marriage would also be on the birth cert for Robert ;)
ADD .... And this birth would be eliminated also then (after reading you next post) for Jacoba, parents as Philip John and Mary Ann A, registered at NEWTOWN (5045/1878)
Cheers, JM
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Have eliminated death certificate father John , mother Jane
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JM, Robert was Hannah's son, not Mary Ann's.
Did Hannah give an occupation for her father on her marriage cert? It seems to be a bit of a coincidence that Mary AA's husband was Phillip John ROELS and your Hannah's father had a similar name.
Debra :)
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Agh, thanks Debra .... I can often get confused ;D
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Hannah's father was John Philps, she was illegitimate. Her mother is the one I looking for as the only details I have are : Mothers name on Hannah marriage certificate : Mary Ann Flawday. Notice in newspaper of Hannah's son Percy's funeral states details were inserted by grandmother Mary Roels. and another son of Hannah's was named after the grandmother having Roels in his name. No birth certificate for Hannah, no marriage certificate for Mary Flawday / Flaherty to a Roels. :(
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Hannah's father was John Philps, she was illegitimate. Her mother is the one I looking for as the only details I have are : Mothers name on Hannah marriage certificate : Mary Ann Flawday. Notice in newspaper of Hannah's son Percy's funeral states details were inserted by grandmother Mary Roels. and another son of Hannah's was named after the grandmother having Roels in his name. No birth certificate for Hannah, no marriage certificate for Mary Flawday / Flaherty to a Roels. :(
So, on Hannah's marriage cert, what is the exact information that the clergyman recorded re
:) Hannah's father ..... His full name, his occupation
:) Hannah's mother ...... her full name
Cheers, JM
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Wondering if anyone can lead me in the right direction.
Trying to find details of a Mary Ann Flaherty.
daughter Hannah Sophia born 1858 ? Morpeth.
Hannah married in 1875 to a Thomas Bratby in Newtown. Details on marriage certificate show name as Hannah Flawday daughter of Mary Ann Flawday and John Philps .
May I please ask where the surname FLAHERTY comes into the picture
Cheers, JM
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Marriage Certificate of Hannah & Thomas Bratby,
Hannah Sophia Flawday Birthplace : Morpeth. Fathers Name John Philps ( Farmer) * nothing known about him either other than this,) Mother : Mary Ann Flawday.
On Hannah and Thomas children's birth certificate Hannah is listed as mother Hannah Flaherty
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Did Hannah sign or did she make her mark when she married?
On the birth certs for her children, was it Thomas or Hannah who provided her nee name?
I am wondering this as it may well be that Flaherty is simply how the District Registrar recorded the VERBAL advice when the births were being registered.... and it is perhaps the clerk's spelling for the verbal advice of "Flawday" or perhaps the clergyman decided to spell her surname as FLAWDAY when he was organising the marriage ....
Also, does the marriage cert show that there has been NSW BDM reconciliation from church registers?
Also, which church did Hannah and Thomas marry in ..... Perhaps the original church register will have others of that surname marrying there ....
Cheers, JM
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Both Thomas & Hannah's signature are in the same handwriting of the details of the marriage ie the person that filled out the certificate also filled in their names as signatures. Yes the NSW BDM was reconcile with the church register. Details on children's birth certificate were given verbally. They were married at St Stephens, Church of England Newtown. I might add that Hannah was 2 months pregnant so the wedding was hurried.
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Both Thomas & Hannah's signature are in the same handwriting of the details of the marriage ie the person that filled out the certificate also filled in their names as signatures. Yes the NSW BDM was reconcile with the church register. Details on children's birth certificate were given verbally. They were married at St Stephens, Church of England Newtown. I might add that Hannah was 2 months pregnant so the wedding was hurried.
If it is all in the same handwriting, then I suspect that the reconciliation was not fully fully complete (sometimes five registers needed)..... :) first babies can often be in a hurry but that does not stop the clergyman from recording all the information. In the 1870s there was a huge dispute between the NSW parliament and the Churches re just how much information to provide to the 'secular' BDM offices. But the C of E clergymen recorded the details about the parents on several registers at the local level..... ;D
It is a matter of getting to the original one to see exactly what was recorded re Hannah's parentage to learn further about both her mum and her dad.... I also find it a tad co-incidental that Mary's surname becomes ROELS, and that Hannah's dad was John Philips .... and there's a Philip John ROELS in Newtown when Hannah Sophia marries there.
http://www.ststephens.org.au/ I think their older parish registers would be with the Diocese, and if that is so, then there's some good news ;D
http://www.archives.anglican.asn.au/index.php/p2/family_history
"We are currently planning a mass digitization project with Ancestry.com which will provide even wider public access to the information contained in our baptism, confirmation, marriage and burial registers."
If my memory serves me well, it was Dundee who first alerted RChatters to the above news ;D
Cheers, JM
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Oh wow - thats amazing. I have hope again !!! :D Thanks you so much for setting me off again as I had given up on this line.
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I noticed that everyone with public trees on Ancestry has Hannah's death year as 1938. She actually died in 1919, three years after her husband Thomas.
5556/1919
BRATBY, ANN S
Parents: PHILLIP
Registered at GULGONG
Her obits:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/103013562
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/112428240
Debra :)
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NSW Electoral roll 1903 ROBERTSON, polling at Gulgong
BRATBY:
Harry, at Beryl, labourer
Robert Lorraine, at Beryl, labourer
Thomas David, at Beryl, brickmaker
Hannah Sophia, at Beryl, domestic duties.
Plus : :)
John PHILLIPS, at Three-mile, miner
William PHILLIPS, at Gulgong, miner
(I did not find anyone at that polling place in 1903 with the surname ROELS or FLAWDAY or FLAHERTY or variations)
Cheers, JM
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Thank you so much , Debra. I didn't connect it to Hannah as there are 3 Ann's married to Bratby's. The death date on Ancestry - at least one tree is mine , was handed down by Hannah's son to his daughter in law (my great grandmother) just took it to be right. Just goes to show you have to be very open minded with spelling of names. Have ordered death certificate so hopefully will get more information. Thanks so much again - just love this forum as it opens avenues I hadn't considered.
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Thanks JM,
Funny how " John Philps / Phillips " keeps croping up. Still trying to find out how the " Rolls/ Roels" fits in but at least hopefully will find something. :)
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From Hannah's marriage certificate:
Who were the witnesses?
What is Hannah's "usual place of residence"?
If Hannah was born anytime after 1854 she would have needed permission from a parent or guardian to marry - is there any mention of that on the certificate or did she lie about her age?
I see that her son Sydney's death reg. in Queensland gives her maiden surname as ROLLS so obviously his family also knew of the connection with that name.
Debra :)
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On the marriage certificate the witness's were : Morris Upton and Emily Jane Upton.
Thomas : usual residence was Australia Street Kingston
Hannah : usual residence was Marey ?? Moley ?? Street Kingston ( Street name unreadable).
The certificate has that she is a minor but no mention on who gave permission. On the NSW BDM it states : Particulars in Columns 5- (Birthplace), 7 - (Age) , 9- (Parents details) & 10- (Occupation) obtained from Church register no 464 WH Young Deputy Register Sydney 16 Oct 1915
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Official Transcipts are cheaper and quicker option ... But a snip and attach the address please... Also in the general area where it says according to the rites of .... that is where the clergymen usually note who gave consent... Required for all minors ir under 21 years... How old for Hannah on that cert?
Cheers JM
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Hmm, I wonder if this baptism is relevant:
V18553636
42B/1855
PHILIP, ANN S
Parents: JOHN J F & MARY A A
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTC3-6JL
The same Mary Ann Amelia who later married John ROELS I wonder? But her surname was apparently HANSON :-\
Debra :)
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That Mary Ann Amelia isn't ours as she married a Captain J Roels and at her death the only daughter was Blanche. ( & two sons) (Trove)
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On the marriage certificate the witness's were : Morris Upton and Emily Jane Upton.
Thomas : usual residence was Australia Street Kingston
Hannah : usual residence was Marey ?? Moley ?? Street Kingston ( Street name unreadable).
The certificate has that she is a minor but no mention on who gave permission. On the NSW BDM it states : Particulars in Columns 5- (Birthplace), 7 - (Age) , 9- (Parents details) & 10- (Occupation) obtained from Church register no 464 WH Young Deputy Register Sydney 16 Oct 1915
There ought to be a register around that has the name of the person giving consent, and also gives the actual age for Hannah. She is recorded as Minor, so she has strived to give truthful answers to the clergyman when being interviewed prior to the marriage.
Kingston .... part of Newtown.
so yes, Thomas was of Australia Street and Hannah was of Mary Street ....
Here's some info from the Electoral Rolls (females were not eligible to enrol)
NSW ER 1870 NEWTOWN
John FLAHERTY, Lennox St, freeholder
Philip John ROELS, Denison St, householder
Morris UPTON, St Mary’s St, householder
James FLANADY, residing Smith’s Lane, freeholder, Camperdown Raod, Cook (the location, not the occupation)
NSW ER 1878 NEWTOWN
Thomas D BRATBY, Albermarle St, householder
John FLAHERTY, Lennox St, freeholder, residing Sydney
Martin FLAHERTY, residence, Cavendish St,
Bernard FLAHERTY, Purkiss St CAMPERDOWN, householder
William FLANADY, freeholder Camperdown, residing Petersham
Philip John ROELS, Camden St, householder
Morris UPTON, St Mary’s St, householder
St Mary’s St, ran into Camperdown
Mary St ran from King to Lennox Streets
Lennox ran from Bedford to Australia/Church Streets, crossing Regent and Denison and Mary streets ….
Cheers, JM PS, it would be sensible to remove the full marriage cert image, as it may involve a copyright issue, we are allowed snips to help with deciphering, but not full documents.
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Assessment Books ;D online ;D
http://www.sydneyarchives.info/images/stories/1878_Kingston.pdf
http://www.sydneyarchives.info/rate-books
http://www.sydneyarchives.info/streets
Fingers Crossed
Cheers, JM
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Could there be TWO chaps named Phillip ROELS ;D
In the NSW Police Gazettes a Frank Spicer, alias George Russell was charged with shooting with intent Phillip J H G ROELS and the trial was set for Sydney Quarter Sessions, 2 April 1891 . Frank Spicer was sentenced to 7 years penal servitude.
So that particular Mr Philip ROELS has several “middle names” J, H, G …….
And, Yes there even have been THREE :)
Death registered 1919 at NEWTOWN, Philip G ROELS, son of Sydney P and Alice E (15008)
Death registered 1924 at SYDNEY, Phillip J ROELS, son of Phillip J and Mary AA (5458)
Cheers, JM
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Thanks so much JM - have removed certificate - you have given me more information but still at a loss as to Hannah parents.
So now we have a Hannah Flawday, Hannah Flaherty , Hannah Bratby, Ann Bratby with a mother Mary Ann Flawday, Mary Ann Rolls, Mary Roels and whose father might be John Philps, or John Phillip Roels, or John Phillips. LOL Ha ha ;D no wonder I'm having so much trouble connecting this family!
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Could the father be John James Francis Philp? I may be totally off track here, then again I might not be.
There was a well-researched book published in 1988 "The Story of John Nichols First Fleeter and five generations of his family"/K.Purnell, S.Tuck, S.Draper, B.Coleman & J.Marden.
One of John Nichols children married an Alexander Philp and the descendants lived around the Hunter River area.
Page 122 quote: "On 22nd October 1855 John (Philp) fathered a daughter Ann Sophia Phillip to Mary Ann Amelia Jones (nee Clapham) at Morpeth. This child was baptised on 25 November 1855 by Bishop William Tyrell.......
Mary Ann Amelia was known in the district as Mrs Philp. However, no record of her marriage can be found. Mary Ann Clapham was born on 2nd September 1838 at Sydney, the daughter of Hannah King (nee Hanson) and George Clapham. Mary Ann married William Jones in 1853. Between 1854 and 157 John James Francis had a relationship with Mary Ann Amelia."
The article goes on to say that nothing more could be found about Ann Sophia. This book was written before internet searching and since then other information about some of the people mentioned elsewhere in the book has come to light. Do you think this family could be the one you are looking for? there are some similarities (and differences)
Regards
Jennaya
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Oh - this sounds so close especially as Hannah's death certificate names her as Ann !!!! Is this book available do you know ???
Thank you so much. Now how did the Roels come into it ???? and the Flawday ?????
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yerrr
Can Longhand script 'Clapham' be read as 'Flawday' ? Same no of characters same vowels same up and down strokes ... perhaps there was a flourish completing 'm'
or perhaps the clergyman misread the permission slip for consent to marry rather than misreading his own handwriting
or perhaps Hannah was not descended from First Fleeter
or perhaps May Ann was born FLAWDAY and no record of any others with that name at all or :
Can Mary Ann Amelia Mrs Philp formerly Jones nee Clapham/Hanson have moved on without formally ending her marriage to William Jones (NSW divorce dates from 1873, so YES she can ... otherwise Hannah Sophia would be nee JONES)
If she can move on ONCE can she move on more than once ... of course she can ...
Thats what makes family history intriguing
Cheers JM
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Oh - this sounds so close especially as Hannah's death certificate names her as Ann !!!! Is this book available do you know ???
Thank you so much. Now how did the Roels come into it ???? and the Flawday ?????
The book is out of print however it is held by some public libraries in NSW.(Search trove books to find out) Not sure where you live but it should be available from inter-library loan by applying at your local library, if none of the listed libraries are in you area.
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yerrr
Can Longhand script 'Clapham' be read as 'Flawday' ? Same no of characters same vowels same up and down strokes ... perhaps there was a flourish completing 'm'
or perhaps the clergyman misread the permission slip for consent to marry rather than misreading his own handwriting
or perhaps Hannah was not descended from First Fleeter
or perhaps May Ann was born FLAWDAY and no record of any others with that name at all or :
Can Mary Ann Amelia Mrs Philp formerly Jones nee Clapham/Hanson have moved on without formally ending her marriage to William Jones (NSW divorce dates from 1873, so YES she can ... otherwise Hannah Sophia would be nee JONES)
If she can move on ONCE can she move on more than once ... of course she can ...
Thats what makes family history intriguing
Cheers JM
It was actually John Philp who was descended from the first fleeter through his father
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This link takes you to the John Nichols family society web-page
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~johnnichols/
Click on the Sophia Philp/Markey link on the LH side to read more about this part of the family.
Regards
Jennaya
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I think there are a lot of similarities here, but not sure how to prove or disprove this.
Regards
Jennaya
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"Between 1854 and 157 John James Francis had a relationship with Mary Ann Amelia."
Just realised a typo in the above sentence. Should be 1854 and 1857.
So it looks like she did move on again.
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Roels married Hanson ... likely Mrs Jones using her own Mum birthname ...
Christ Church Cathedral has their historic baptism burial and marriages imaged and on flickr ... Likely includes Morpeth ... live links on rchat NSW Resources Board
Cheers JM
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Thank you so much Jennaya. This does sound very interesting. Have contacted the Family
co-ordinator on Sophia Philps line requesting more info on John so will have to wait and see but ever hopeful :)
JM - so good - this just keeps getting better & better :)
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Hi Bikegirl
I sent you a PM before I read this last post.
Hopefully you will get a reply from the co-ordinator.
Regards
Jennaya
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Hmm, I wonder if this baptism is relevant:
V18553636
42B/1855
PHILIP, ANN S
Parents: JOHN J F & MARY A A
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTC3-6JL
The same Mary Ann Amelia who later married John ROELS I wonder? But her surname was apparently HANSON :-\
Debra :)
That Mary Ann Amelia isn't ours as she married a Captain J Roels and at her death the only daughter was Blanche. ( & two sons) (Trove)
Captain ROELS and Mary Ann Amelia had at least 9 children that I can find registered. Two died as infants, the eldest daughter Marie Antoinette had a difficult life and died in 1888 in Victoria, but when Mary Ann Amelia died in 1914 the remaining six children were still living, three daughters and three sons.
I think you need to get a copy of Mary Ann Amelia ROELS' death cert. and hope that the informant gave a correct account of her partners and children.
Debra :)
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You will likely need more several NSW BDM certs .... Save some pennies and order Official Transcripts instead of the real deal cert. NSW BDM website lists their Official Tramscription Agents... All the info and already deciphered and quicker and email attachments
Cheers JM
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Another Mary A A CLAPHAM in the NSW Index ?
10834/1857 CLAPHAM MARY A A
Mother MARY A A of RAYMOND TERRACE
AND
The same child with surname JONES
10834/1857 JONES MARY A A
Mother MARY A A of RAYMOND TERRACE
More on the CLAPHAM family already named in this thread.
An Obituary for Hannah King nee HANSEN mentions only one son (Thomas George CLAPHAM b. 1841 died in Sydney 1860 – stepson of Jeremiah LEITHBRIDGE) and a daughter Mrs MOUNTAIN (Hannah Elizabeth CLAPHAM b. 1844)
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=MEX19070523.2.14&srpos=6&e=-------10--1----0Letheridge--
A family tree has Mary Ann Amelia JONES as the daughter of George and Hannah as well. http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~kiwiadams/5129.html
All rather confusing.
Essie
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Following from Essie's post and adding other items too
Some possible NSW events of interest
Christ Church St Laurence, is C of E and is located near to Central Railway Staton, SYDNEY
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTCR-N2Q Hannah Elizabeth CLAPHAM born 6 Jul 1844 to George CLAPHAM and Hannah
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTCR-N29 Thomas George CLAPHAM born 30 Jul 1841 to George CLAPHAM and Hannah
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTCR-NF5 Mary Ann Amelia CLAPHAM, born 22 Sept 1838 to George CLAPHAM and Hannah
1853 (ie BEFORE civil registrations for marriages)
William JONES married Mary A CLAPHAM (Volume 81, line 599) Scots Church, Pitt St, SYDNEY
1860 (ie after civil registrations, but BEFORE divorces)
Mary Ann HANSON married Philip John ROELS (#257) Registered Sydney (twice indexed, so some kind of issue with her surname when that index was prepared in the 1930s by volunteers)
I do NOT think the following marriage is part of Hannah Sophia’s family tree….
1879 John Philip ROLES married Annie JONES, Launceston Tasmania 12 July 1879 (#546)
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTZG-Y2T
His likely birth in Tasmania
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTXM-X7J (9 Nov 1849, William Ambrose Roles and Emma Weymouth
Cannot find anyother with that ROELS surname on the austcemindex at present
http://austcemindex.com/inscription.php?id=7805853 23 August 1891, aged 80, Leonard Joseph ROELS
Some bits and pieces
P JHG Roels = Phillip John Henry Geering ROELS …. As per NSW Police Gazette 18 March 1891
Philip HG Roels married in 1924 to Alice C A Collins (#4979) registered Sydney. (did he die same year, and did Alice die 1945, as Alice Christina ROELS (#5323 dau of Frederick, at Redfern)
:) :) BEFORE you order any further NSW BDM marriage certs for any marriage 1856-1895 era… I strongly suggest that if you need marriage cert in that era, you order the Official transcription (a full one, not a partial) See: http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,546609.0.html
Some info re “colonial Divorces” …. This is full of important information … particularly where you can be looking for a burial for a spouse, to explain a second/third marriage, and suspect there was simply an informal ending of the first marriage… http://www.aifs.gov.au/institute/seminars/finlay.html
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/bdm_fh/bdm_rec.html
Important …. If the NSW BDM reference starts with “V” it is NOT a civil registration, so it is NOT a birth/death/marriage. So order the Official Transcript (because you do NOT get the real deal cert for "V" records from NSW BDM anyways...
The “V” stands for VOLUME, and it is therefore an Early Church Record. So it is either a Baptism, Burial or Wedding recorded in a parish or local church register. The event may have been celebrated in one church (of any denomination) and the information then TRANSMITTED to that denomination’s Head Church, or even transmitted to the NSW Chaplains and thus transmitted to the Church of England’s registers.
NOT ALL the records from that pre civil registration era were kept in safe places and so many were lost BEFORE civil registration commenced. Once civil registration commenced, then the local district registrars were expected to foreward returns on a regular basis to Sydney via ORDINARY mail.
Sometimes that did not happen, sometimes the returns were lost in the mail, and sometimes the records may well have been lost in the Sydney Registrar Generals Office.
Of course, todays registrations are handled electronically, so it is hoped that future family history buffs will find things a tad easier.
Cheers, JM
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JM on a slight side track here:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/15496820 SMH 21 Feb 1914
DALEY-DAY marriage in NEW ZEALAND,
Helena May (Nell), elsest dau of late John W and Marie A DAY of Sydney, granddaughter of late Capt P J ROELS, RN.
Capt Philip John ROELS died at sea Feb 27, 1882, aged 54 years.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/13612644 SMH 27 Feb 1886
IN Memoriam
Inserted by his loving daughter L HYNARD
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/850838 Maitland Mercury 13 April 1882. Murder of Capt ROELS in New Guinea
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_York_Island,_Papua_New_Guinea
Apologies for the side track, but I was following up the SMH 6 April 1914 notice for the death of Mary Ann Amelia ROELS, widow of the late Captain ROELS, beloved mother of Blanche Mary HUGHES of St Lives, No. 3 Camden street, Newtown aged 74 years and I agree with Dundee, there’s more than just Blanche …. Also the cutting does NOT preclude more than Blanche…. It is also likely that Blanche would not know Mary Ann Amelia’s parents names with any certainty, (George and Hannah) but I note that Geo is an abbreviation for George as is Jno for John…. Poorly written Geo has been mis-transcribed as Jno many a time across the years.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/15499108
Cheers, JM
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I suspect this is the death registration for Capt ROELS at the NSW BDM :)
1882 Philip J ROSE (sic) aged 53 years, died at sea, a marine registration #12864
Cheers, JM
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Likely births for Mary A and Phillip J ROELS/ROLLS/ROALES (I may have missed some, sorry )
1860 Maria #182 (ROLLS on index)
1862 Ellen E # 484
1864 Florence A # 632
1865 Blanche M , # 2434
1868 Sydney FA #4446
1870 Philip Henry G # 5108 and 187002456 045/1870 (two reference numbers, so there was something causing concerns to Reg Gen)
1873 Laurence Peter McPherson #3950
1878 Thomas (ROALES) #4647 (death 1878 #2864) :'(
1878 Jacoba #5045 (death 1878 #3048) :'(
If (as seems likely) it turns out that Hannah Sophia’s mum was the Mrs Roels of Camden St, NEWTOWN, and if you have lots of pennies …. Then if you want Hannah’s younger half siblings details :
I think that if you were to order an official transcription of the 1878 Jacoba birth cert you would have quality info to follow up for validating “known” info ….. a) when/where Mary Ann and Philip married, b) their ages in 1878, c) Dad’s occupation d) the family’s usual address e) midwife (could be a female family member, living nearby) and of course f) details of Jacoba’s older siblings…. You should also get Mary Ann’s birth surname, and her place of birth (same for Philip) .... Of course, it depends on who was registering the births, and how clearly the Deputy registrar heard the info ;D
Cheers, JM
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Oh wow - all this information !!! I'm starting to get confused, For some reason, I thought I read that the parents of Mary Ann Amelia Hanson who married Phillip Roels were John Hanson and Jane ? where the parents of Mary Ann Amelia Clapham are George and Hannah King (nee Hanson)
I really do appreciate all this help and information - its great to have fresh eyes on this . :)
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Marriage Certificate of Hannah & Thomas Bratby,
Hannah Sophia Flawday Birthplace : Morpeth. Fathers Name John Philps ( Farmer) * nothing known about him either other than this,) Mother : Mary Ann Flawday.
On Hannah and Thomas children's birth certificate Hannah is listed as mother Hannah Flaherty
If Mary Ann had ended her relationship with John Philp, and taken up with another man, surname Flaherty, this may be the reason that Hannah put that name down as her mother's name when she (Hannah) married.
Regards
Jennaya
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In Dec 1852 Thomas HANSON gave notice to clergymen not to perform a marriage ceremony of his niece Mary Ann Amelia CLAPHAM. (prior to her marriage to William JONES!)
http://www.jenwilletts.com/search.htm
I searched with just the surname CLAPHAM.
Essie
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Thanks Essie - seems Mary Ann Amelia Clapham liked the lads :D
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Another Mary A A CLAPHAM in the NSW Index ?
10834/1857 CLAPHAM MARY A A
Mother MARY A A of RAYMOND TERRACE
AND
The same child with surname JONES
10834/1857 JONES MARY A A
Mother MARY A A of RAYMOND TERRACE
More on the CLAPHAM family already named in this thread.
An Obituary for Hannah King nee HANSEN mentions only one son (Thomas George CLAPHAM b. 1841 died in Sydney 1860 – stepson of Jeremiah LEITHBRIDGE) and a daughter Mrs MOUNTAIN (Hannah Elizabeth CLAPHAM b. 1844)
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=MEX19070523.2.14&srpos=6&e=-------10--1----0Letheridge--
A family tree has Mary Ann Amelia JONES as the daughter of George and Hannah as well. http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~kiwiadams/5129.html
All rather confusing.
Essie
The book "The Story of John Nichols First Fleeter" page 122 mentions this child as well.
"Another daughter, Mary Ann Amelia Jones was born on 20 October 1857 to John and Mary Ann Amelia at the village of Alnwick, Hunter River. This child died on 29th August 1858 at Alnwick form bronchitis. Her father John Philp was a fisherman.
In the "History of Saint John's Anglican, Raymond Terrace 1840-1976", it states that the Reverend John Blomfield was appointed march 1857 and his register states his first burial was on 30 August 1858 for an infant ten months, Mary Amelia Clapham. On her death certificate it reads "omit Clapham and add Jones". William Gloag, District registrar of Raymond terrace added to Mary Amelia's birth certificate on 6 November 1858 "all father's particulars be omitted".
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The Roels marriages
257/1860 ROELS PHILIP JOHN ANNE MARY SYDNEY
257/1860 ROELS PHILIP JOHN HANSON MARY ANN SYDNEY
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I have been going back through this thread and this is the timeline that I have come up with.
Mary Ann Amelia Clapham marries a Mr Jones
This relationship breaks down
She has a relationship with John James Francis Philp and has 2 children, one of whom dies.
This relationship also breaks down.
She meets Philip John Roels, this time she wants to marry (perhaps he wants a marriage rather than a de facto relationship)
Mr Jones is probably still alive so Mary Ann Amelia uses her mother's maiden name to cover up the fact that she is still married to Mr Jones.
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The Jones and Clapham marriage
Registration Number Groom's Name Bride's name
V1853599 81-1853 William Jones Mary A Clapham QC
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Thanks so much Jennaya,
My job tomorrow was to get a large sheet of paper and do a timeline with all the details as I am getting so confused.But definitely think this is the right track - just got to prove it now :)
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Hi
PLease dont copy paste from databases which are copyright of their owners.
Better you modify by typing up your own transcription
I wonder if 'fisherman' could be a discreete way to hint 'mariner' ie if Cpt ROELS was the 'fisherman '? Morpeth was a commercial port in that era
Cheers JM
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LOL - I must be getting old - I was going to use butcher paper and a pen :)
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LOL
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http://users.tpg.com.au/gpelosi/dat1.html
According to the above SUBMITTED tree so it needs validating with records, not just with the index references,
John James Francis PHILP son of Alexander PHILP and Sophia NICHOLS was born 10 Sept 1829 at Newcastle and died 25 March 1888 at Raymond Terrace
Mary Ann Amelia CLAPHAM, daughter of George CLAPHAM and Hannah HANSON, was born 2 Sept 1838 at Sydney,
Ann Sophia Phillip PHILP was born 22 October 1855 at Morpeth. Her parents were Mary Ann Amelia JONES nee CLAPHAM and John James Francis PHILP
So, perhaps it would be sensible to work on establishing the validity of the John James Francis PHILP information.
Cheers, JM
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So, following on
From the INDEXES online http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/bdm_fh.html
NSW BDM has the usual TWO entries for INDEX references baptisms from that era ….
1829, Line 9494 of Vol 1C, gives John JF PHILP , son of Alexander and Sophia and
1829, Line 638 of Vol 13, also gives John JF PHILP , son of Alexander and Sophia
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTCD-XXP
I mentioned earlier about the Christ Church Cathedral’s registers being available online ….
Click on this link :
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?board=165.0 then
click on this link:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?board=399.0 then
click on this link:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=369703.0 then scroll further and find the heading “
Baptisms, Marriages, Burials, Christ Church Cathedral, Newcastle” and under that there’s lines of live links with their respective headings on the right….
Here’s those live links and I think it would be sensible to look through the Family Register sections too , not just the baptisms
Baptisms, Marriages, Burials, Christ Church Cathedral, Newcastle
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157606066769147/ 1820 – 1899 Family Register
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157605008173551/ 1826 – 1837 Baptisms, Marriages, Burials
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157604433014652/ 1837 – 1838 Baptisms, Marriages, Burials
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157605132739200/ 1839 – 1861 Baptisms, Marriages, Burials
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157605674610949/ 1856 – 1868 Marriages Register
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157605785759029/ 1869 – 1885 Marriages Register
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157605802132868/ 1885 – 1897 Marriages Register
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157606197590347/ 1899 – 1913 Marriages Register
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157605928662968/ 1913 – 1914 Marriages Register
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157606308436455/ 1914 – 1916 Marriages Register
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157606323070651/ 1916 – 1918 Marriages Register
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157606450662513/ 1918 – 1929 Marriage Register
http://www.flickr.com/photos/uon/sets/72157606952230042/ 1929 – 1936 Marriages Register
NSW BDM has the death registration for a John J F PHILP, registered in 1888 at Raymond Terrace, son of Alexander and Sophia (#9448)
May I suggest you consider ordering a transcription of that NSW 1888 registration as it may well show Hannah Sophia as his daughter
Hannah’s Early Church Records (ECR) are also transcribed ONLINE and may well be imaged within those Christ Church Cathedral images linked above.
Ann Sophia PHILIP, daughter of John James Francis PHILIP and Mary Ann Amelia …. Born 22 Oct 1855, Christened 25 Nov 1855,
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTC3-6JL
The ECR is indexed at NSW BDM as Ann S PHILIP, dau of John J F and Mary AA. It is referenced “V18553636 42B/1855” so it is in Volume 42B, and line 3636.
Cheers, JM
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In Dec 1852 Thomas HANSON gave notice to clergymen not to perform a marriage ceremony of his niece Mary Ann Amelia CLAPHAM. (prior to her marriage to William JONES!)
http://www.jenwilletts.com/search.htm
I searched with just the surname CLAPHAM.
Essie
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/660258 Maitland Mercury 1 December 1852
“Notice to Clergymen of all Denominations. Suspecting my Niece, Mary Ann Amelia CLAPHAM, is disposed to Get Married contrary to my wishes, she being under age; as her lawful Guardian, I hereby Caution Clergymen against performing the ceremony.
Thomas HANSON,
Raymond Terrace, Nov 24, 1852
You needed to be 21 years of age and over to consent to your own marriage, otherwise you needed the consent of your legal guardian, as at law, you were an "infant" ie a minor, that is a person without sufficient "voice". :-X :-X :-X Now a days you need to be 18 years of age to give consent to your own marriage, otherwise you still need the consent of your legal guardian.
Cheers, JM
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Thanks so much JM . Have spoken to a few people from the Philps line and they agree that this might be the right track, So hopefully - fingers crossed,
About to go thru those links you sent me :)
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The Jones and Clapham marriage
Registration Number Groom's Name Bride's name
V1853599 81-1853 William Jones Mary A Clapham QC
The ECR code of QC is for Sydney, Scots Church (Pitt Street) so it is likely that the marriage cert will have scant information … because ......
The Rev James FULLERTON was at the Scots Church, Pitt St in 1853. There was much ado in that era as he was considered to be conducting a “marriage shop”, with the numbers of marriages he conducted. Also, he may not have been as diligent in checking the credentials of the bride and/or the groom :-X
http://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/fullerton-james-3582
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/13646830 SMH 12 August 1887 Obit to Rev Fullerton
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/AUS-PT-JACKSON-CONVICTS/2004-04/1082680521 Info about his Marriage Shop ACTIVITIES…. “His registers do not record parents’ names and only the barest of details” …
Cheers, JM
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It is in the newspapers, but umm…. I have not found it at NSW BDM online index
EDITED POST,
I am editing the post to show that although the marriage was announced in 1892 newspaper, the cutting itself shows that Dr Lang married the couple in 1862. Many thanks to RChatter Dundee for sorting this out for me ....
I have struck through 1892 thus 1892 and inserted 1862 thus 1862
ROELS – LETHBRIDGE
April 6, 1892, 1862 by the Rev Dr Lang, DD., Philip Jean, eldest son of Albert J ROELS, merchant, Rotterdam, to Mary Ann Amelia, eldest daughter of J Letheridge, master mariner.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/113761070 Evening News 27 Feb 1892.
Ummm.... now where's that earlier post with mention of a step relationship with the surname as a variation on Letheridge ...
Back shortly,
Add, here it is :
An Obituary for Hannah King nee HANSEN mentions only one son (Thomas George CLAPHAM b. 1841 died in Sydney 1860 – stepson of Jeremiah LEITHBRIDGE) and a daughter Mrs MOUNTAIN (Hannah Elizabeth CLAPHAM b. 1844)
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=MEX19070523.2.14&srpos=6&e=-------10--1----0Letheridge--
THE FIRST WHITE WOMAN BORN IN THE COLONY. (of New Zealand of course)
Marlborough Express, Volume XLI, Issue 120, 23 May 1907, Page 3
NZ BDM online index ;D Ref #1907/1833, Hannah King LETHERIDGE, aged 91 years. IF you are to consider buying the record, ORDER their PRINT OUT, cheaper, but better still USUALLY HAS FAR MORE INFO than their real deal certs :) ....
https://www.bdmhistoricalrecords.dia.govt.nz/search/
Cheers, JM
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Philip Jean ROELS, Master Mariner in the South Seas in the 1870s
http://mariners.records.nsw.gov.au/1876/12/media/038ros.jpg
There’s a chap, surname ROELS, likely reads “Philip J” for his given names, he was the Mate on the MAVIS, and he was aged 52 of the Netherlands…. Into Sydney 10 Jan 1881,
There’s a Phillipe Jean ROELS, Master of the METARIS, in 1869
http://mariners.records.nsw.gov.au/ Enjoy, as there’s lots more, with images, freely available
And for earlier PHILP ancestors for Hannah Sophia FLAWDAY http://pandora.nla.gov.au/pan/10421/20041220-0000/www.firstfamilies2001.net.au/firstfamily9082.html?id=Philp1964356277
Cheers, JM
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It is in the newspapers, but umm…. I have not found it at NSW BDM online index
ROELS – LETHBRIDGE
April 6, 1892, by the Rev Dr Lang, DD., Philip Jean, eldest son of Albert J ROELS, merchant, Rotterdam, to Mary Ann Amelia, eldest daughter of J Letheridge, master mariner.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/113761070 Evening News 27 Feb 1892.
Cheers, JM
JM, the notice actually says "April 6, 1862, by the Rev Dr Lang"
Who would put that in the newspaper in 1892? It was actually 1860 if the ROELS/HANSON marriage is the correct one. Very odd.
Debra :)
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I have been trying to figure out how a newspaper in Feb 1892 could tell the future ie a marriage for April 1892 .... I had basically decided that it was an announcement for a proposed marriage, with a different Dr Lang .... I will phone some elderly rellies who are trying to figure out a Rev Lang in 1892 for me :-[
http://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/lang-john-dunmore-2326
Thanks Dundee ;D ;D
I will try to edit that earlier post !
I agree, and my elderly rellies agree .... "very odd"
Cheers, JM
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"At the end of that time they returned to the Bay of Islands where they resided until the sacking of Kororareka by the natives in 1845, when with many others they returned to Sydney, taking their two children, a son and a daughter, with them."
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0w56/
It seems that naughty Mary Ann Amelia was written out of the family history.
Vessel: Thistle
Master: CLAPHAM
From Auckland to Port Jackson arriving 28 May 1845
Passengers: Mrs CLAPHAM, 2 daughters & 1 son
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0w57/
...and of course all three were baptised together in 1847.
Debra :)
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Yes, I agree Dundee, but lets hope there's sufficient extant records being found here at RChat to help put her back into their family history ....
I think her Uncle Tom, had a lot to answer for, putting an announcement like that in the newspapers .... I know, it was 1850s, BUT ....... he apparently forgot to advise Dr Fullerton :D
Oh well, that's me looking at it with 21st century eyes, instead of as a dis-interested family history buff.
Cheers, JM
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ROELS – LETHERIDGE
April 6, 1892, by the Rev Dr Lang, DD., Philip Jean, eldest son of Albert J ROELS, merchant, Rotterdam, to Mary Ann Amelia, eldest daughter of J Letheridge, master mariner.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/113761070 Evening News 27 Feb 1892.
Terrific find JM.
Proves our suspicions all along that Mary Ann Amelia eventually "married" Philip ROELS ::)
Essie
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and have just found out Mary Ann Amelia 's mother Hannah Hanson King had a sister Jane who married a Charles FLOWERDAY !!!!!
seems Mary Ann used family members to cover her past ! :D
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Wow, its all coming together.
I guess we shouldn't be too hard on Mary Ann Amelia.
She marries against the wishes of her Guardian. The marriage breaks down (perhaps Uncle was right). There is a good chance that he said something along the lines of don't come crying back to me. The only alternative in those times was to find someone else to care for her.
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I wonder if Mary Ann Amelia had any children with William Jones. I searched BDM indexes, but there were a number of possibilities. Jones is a common name. LOL
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Umm having trouble finding a death certificate for Mary Ann Amelia Clapham, Flowerday, Jones, Hanson, Roels. There is one for Mary A Roels died 1914 daughter of John & Jane at Granville which can't be our Mary daughter of George & Hannah. Looked at Trove -couldn't see anything. Any suggestions ?
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Hi
May help http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=:3083796&id=I612507491
Muss
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Umm having trouble finding a death certificate for Mary Ann Amelia Clapham, Flowerday, Jones, Hanson, Roels. There is one for Mary A Roels died 1914 daughter of John & Jane at Granville which can't be our Mary daughter of George & Hannah. Looked at Trove -couldn't see anything. Any suggestions ?
Yes, I suspect that it is the correct one .... the information for the names of the parents of any deceased person is provided to the funeral director when he is making the arrangements for the funeral. It is likely then the funeral director is dealing with a grieving family, who are concerned with notifying neighbours, friends and of course relatives who may need to come some distance. In 1914, the tyranny of distance included lack of easy access to telephones, cost of telegrams, public transport via horse drawn rather than motor car, etc. The least important item may well have been the names of Mary Ann Amelia's late parents .... afterall back in 1852 her legal guardian was Thomas HANSON, and then in 1862 (as reported in 1892) it seems her step father may have been recorded on a marriage cert as her father ....
I have vague recollection of Hannah as a given name being an alternative for Jane or vice versa.... However I think it is simply a case of a grieving family member (Blanche) perhaps being either misunderstood or simply not knowing of the George and Hannah connection to Mary Ann Amelia ....
Cheers, JM
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I think you should hasten slowly, and work back from one of the birth certs for a child of Mary Ann Amelia ROELS ... The official transcription will have all the same info as on a real deal cert. So it will give you first hand information likely provided by Mary A A ROELS about not just the birth being registered but about herself...
"Births :
Full name, sex, date and place of birth
Mother's details including full name and maiden name, age, occupation, place of birth
Father's details including full name, age, occupation, place of birth
Date and place of parent's marriage
Previous children of the relationship"
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/bdm_fh/bdm_rec.html
Likely births for Mary A and Phillip J ROELS/ROLLS/ROALES (I may have missed some, sorry )
1860 Maria #182 (ROLLS on index)
1862 Ellen E # 484
1864 Florence A # 632
1865 Blanche M , # 2434
1868 Sydney FA #4446
1870 Philip Henry G # 5108 and 187002456 045/1870 (two reference numbers, so there was something causing concerns to Reg Gen)
1873 Laurence Peter McPherson #3950
1878 Thomas (ROALES) #4647 (death 1878 #2864) :'(
1878 Jacoba #5045 (death 1878 #3048) :'(
If (as seems likely) it turns out that Hannah Sophia’s mum was the Mrs Roels of Camden St, NEWTOWN, and if you have lots of pennies …. Then if you want Hannah’s younger half siblings details :
I think that if you were to order an official transcription of the 1878 Jacoba birth cert you would have quality info to follow up for validating “known” info ….. a) when/where Mary Ann and Philip married, b) their ages in 1878, c) Dad’s occupation d) the family’s usual address e) midwife (could be a female family member, living nearby) and of course f) details of Jacoba’s older siblings…. You should also get Mary Ann’s birth surname, and her place of birth (same for Philip) .... Of course, it depends on who was registering the births, and how clearly the Deputy registrar heard the info ;D
Cheers, JM
Cheers, JM
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Mary A A ROELS is buried at Rookwood (Catholic) also with her is daughter Florence:
ROELS Mary A A 74yrs
31 Mar 1914
SEC*M2*E**1278
ROELS Florence 75yrs
23 Mar 1939
SEC*M2*E**1278
http://search.catholiccemeteries.org.au/
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my resource confirms Merlin's Post re Rookwood and includes the MI as "relict of the late Capt. Roels"
JM
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ROELS – LETHERIDGE
April 6, 1892 1862, by the Rev Dr Lang, DD., Philip Jean, eldest son of Albert J ROELS, merchant, Rotterdam, to Mary Ann Amelia, eldest daughter of J Letheridge, master mariner.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/113761070 Evening News 27 Feb 1892.
Terrific find JM.
Proves our suspicions all along that Mary Ann Amelia eventually "married" Philip ROELS ::)
Essie
The significance of the date ...... Capt Roels was killed on Feb 1882, so it was an anniversary announcement on 27 Feb 1892....
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/107236715 10 March 1883 Evening news Death sentence commuted.
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Hi
May help http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=:3083796&id=I612507491
Muss
This death is for the 2nd daughter that Mary Ann Amelia had with John James Francis Philp. (daughter given the same name as her mother)
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errrr Yes that is right
and the link Muss has given includes a contact for our OP to consider as that may help... That is how I read Muss' post ... could be wrong but it is just my view re 'May help'
Cheers JM
Hi
May help http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=:3083796&id=I612507491
Muss
This death is for the 2nd daughter that Mary Ann Amelia had with John James Francis Philp. (daughter given the same name as her mother)
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Hi
May help http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.oceania.newzealand.general/3474.3/mb.ashx
http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.britisles.england.ken.general/19044.257.2.1/mb.ashx
Muss
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It's amazing how much information has been uncovered on this thread. it has been helpful for researchers of other related families such as the Philp family and the families in the previous post. :)
regards
Jennaya
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I am tidying up my notes re the ROELS family, so here are further newspaper cuttings to help with some of Mary Ann Amelia’s ROELS children
ROELS.-Sacred to the memory of Captain P. J. Roels, who was shot at sea on February 27,1882, aged 54 years. Inserted by his loving daughter, L. Hynard.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/13612644 SMH 27 Feb 1886
ROELS.—In memory of Captain P. J. Roels, murdered at sea on 27th February, 1882, aged 54 years. Inserted by his daughter, Lena Hynard.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/13576127 27 Feb 1885 SMH
Mr. F. A. Roels, of Ultimo, has been notified that his son, Private A. E. Roels, has been wounded in France; and Mrs. J. Hughes, of New Lambton, has been informed that her son, Prlvate R. Hughes, has been wounded. Both are grandsons of the late Captain P. J.Roels, for many years well-known in shipping circles.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/15756666 18 July 1917
Albert Edward ROELS, was the son of Fitz ROELS (I suspect this would be Sydney F but that is just speculating, you would need bdms to sort out properly)
Reginald HUGHES was the son of Blanche Mary HUGHES nee ROELS (this would be the same lady who is mentioned in Mary Ann Amelia ROELS death notice)
Both these chaps AIF service records are freely available at the National Archives of Australia’s website.
http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/search/index.aspx (Search the collection option, and search as a guest)
Cheers, JM
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Fitz Roels had an eventful life
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Has anyone noticed how strange the newspaper notice is?
1/ Captain Roels and Mary Ann were married in 1860 not 1862.
2/ Her father was not J. Lethbridge.
3/ I have not been able to find out much about Mary Ann's previous husband, however I suspect (unless anyone knows differently) that he may have been still alive when she married Capt. Roels.
The only reference that I have found which MIGHT be her husband William Jones is in Pre-1839 foreigners in NZ. This site points to a William Jones in the Southland Times, 13 Jan 1898, page 2.
This article says that a William Jones, an old whaler, who resided in Taranaki since early in the 30's, died on Tuesday, aged 89. It does not mention any other useful details.
Of course William Jones is a very hard name to research unless you have some details about the person to start with! So who knows.
It seems very strange to me to put a notice of a marriage in the paper that actually happened 32 years previously and to give a year that is 2 years out. And it is a notice as if the marriage had happened in 1892.
This is altogether a very very strange notice.
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Press (New Zealand) 17 Jul 1897 p7 ( further to reply #83 and #90)
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/CHP18970717.2.52?query=Letheridge
....... article old identity Mrs LETHERIDGE....daughter of HANSON.........Sydney....
Timaru Herald 23 May 1907 p7
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/THD19070523.2.43?query=Letheridge
...obit for this woman Hannah King LETHERIDGE formerly CLAPPHAM nee HANSEN....
might be something to find here.
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Is this your Mary Ann, b. 1838?
BDM NSW birth
797/1838 V1838797 32A CLAPHAM Mary A A parents George / Hannah
798/1841 V1841798 32A CLAPHAM Thomas C parents George / Hannah
799/1844 V1844799 32A CLAPHAM Hannah E parents George / Hannah
SMH 14 Apr 1860
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/13039283?
funeral of Thomas George CLAPHAM step-son of Jeremiah LEITHRIDGE...his residence Sussex St...
SMH 22 Jun 1868 death
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/13168218?
On the 26th February, at the Bay of Islands, New Zealand, Mr.JEREMIAH LETHRIDGE, late of Sussex-street, Sydney.
Possibly?......Hannah HANSEN b. 1814 New Zealand....married George CLAPHAM New Zealand.....is de facto wife of Jeremiah LETHERIDGE in Sydney. Daughter Mary Ann is wife of Philip ROELS.
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Hi and thank you Wivenhoe.
Yes that is my Mary Ann.
I know that her mother married Jeremiah after her first husband was killed. There are lots of details about the family in previous posts. Jeremiah was previously married in 1845 to Sarah Hillier, who died in 1847 and that marriage is under the surname LETHSOW. Hannah and Jeremiah married in 1848. They were married at Independent (Congregational) Sydney, St Phillip's Mariners' Church. They do not seem to be able to get Jeremiah's name correct as it is given differently in a lot of documents, he and Hannah were married under LETHWICH. ???
I don't think that I had the one about poor Thomas' Funeral. It is sad about him. Did you notice that the article above the funeral notice is about his death?
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Are there any relatives still alive of Philippus Johannes Roels? I found old picture of Roels with wife and child before leaving Holland to go to Australia.
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Hi ddenge,
I was interested to see your post. I am only related to the Roels through a marriage to an interesting woman named Mary Ann Amelia Clapham who married Phillip John Roels in 1860 in Sydney. This lady used many different names to hide her identity. I think because she did not want her original family to find her. I do not have much information about the Roels family. On the marriage certificate for Mary Ann Amelia who was calling herself at the time HANSEN, it says that her husband Philip John ROELS was born, The Hague, Holland and that his father was Philip Jacobus ROELS, a merchant, and his mother was M.H.A. HALLUNGILLS (I would love to know what the M.H.A. stands for). Philip John ROELS was also sometimes known as Phillipe Jean ROELS or Philip Jean ROELS. He was a mariner and I have traced him on several ships, mostly as master but on one he was listed as the mate on a ship with his nationality given as Netherlands.
This is as far as I have gone with the ROELS family. If you would be willing to send me a copy of the photo that you have (if you think that there is a connection to the family that I am researching) I would be thrilled. (email: gazell @ westnet . com . au) (leave out the spaces of course).
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Philippus Johannes Roels was a son of Albertus Jacobus Roels and Helena Antonia Maria Hallungius.
Born 31 may 1828 in Rotterdam, Holland.
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Hi ddenge and welcome to Rootschat.
"Pieces of Time" hasn't been active on Rootschat since 2017, but some of the other contributors have been more recent. All those who have made posts should get an email telling them of your new post, assuming email addresses are still the same.
Judith
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Hannah and Thomas Bratby were my great great grandparents. I have done a lot of research and believe I have solved the mysteries. Hannah's birth name was registered as Ann Sophia Philip. (I am pretty that Mary Ann and John James Philp weren't actually married though) She was the daughter of Mary Ann Amelia Clapham and John James Francis Philp. Mary Ann was also known as Jones, Philp, Flawday, and Hanson before she married Philip John Roels in 1860. It seems she married William Jones at the age of 15 but not sure if she divorced, had the marriage annuled or simply changed her name and left. Mary Ann Amelia Clapham had an Aunt Jane who married a Flowerday and I believe the name Flawday is a shortened version of this and she changed her name so she couldn't be found. Hanson was her mother's maiden name (Hansen spelling). Hannah was also known with several surnames. She was born Philp but named was changed to Flawday to match her mother's name change. When she married Flawday was the name she was registered under. She later changed her maiden surname to Roels when registering the births of her children. My great grandfather's birth and death certificates both have her maiden name as Roels. Hannah's death certificate lists her as Ann S Bratby. I am not sure why she was known as Hannah all her life rather that Ann.
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Hi Richo
Welcome to Rootschat. There is a lot of information on this thread.
I assume you know that through John James PHILP, you are descended from first fleet convict John Nichols.
Regards
Jennaya
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Hi Jenaya
Yes I have traced my ancestry back to John Nichols. I found that very exciting and very interesting. My great grandfather's (Sydney George Bratby) mother Hannah has been a mystery for such a long time, it was great to finally unravel all the loose ends. Her mother Mary Ann Amelia Clapham sure had a varied and colourful history with so many name changes ...... :)
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Hi Richo
It is an interesting history. The John Nichols family society publishes a twice yearly journal and also has reunions every five years or so.
Regards
Jennaya