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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: M3D1C_Dan on Thursday 12 September 13 21:28 BST (UK)
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First post so quick hello to everyone ;D
Right, I'm trying to trace my Grandfather on my father's side, and relations back from him.
His particulars are as follows.
Name: Gordon Richard MARKINSON
b. 09/12/1900 somewhere in London (no birth certificate records)
d. 26/03/1971 in Leeds, West Yorkshire
Served in WWII in the Green Howards based at Gibraltar Barracks, Claypit Lane in Leeds, West Yorks (no longer standing) - served with Brother Frederick who was shot and killed in France.
Worked as a Platelayer for London and North Eastern Railways (LNER or British Railways), also worked in a foundary at some point.
Married 10/09/1945 in Leeds, West Yorkshire - to Nora Reddington
Nora REDDINGTON b. 1913 Ballina, Co. Mayo, Ireland - d. c1973 Leeds, West Yorkshire
The REDDINGTON family still reside on Ballina and have numerous connected relations we are aware of.
It has come to light over the past 12 months, unbeknownst to the rest of the family, that he was jailed for bigamy sometime on or around 1947, presumably in Leeds, West Yorkshire. My father was born in 1947, but does not recall his father not being around at any point long enough to have served a prison sentence. Can only surmise that it was during my father's birth in 1947 or within the first couple of years of his birth. I presume a sentence of this nature would have been served in Leeds, having being a resident there, and would hazard a guess this would have been HMP Armley Prison.
I have spoken to the West Yorkshire Archives dept today who deal with prison records, and have emailed them this information in hopes of finding a missing link.
There could have been a partial or complete name change from MARKINSON, or possibly derivatives of the name; MARKSON, MARTENSON, PARKINSON etc
I did find one family with the MARKINSON name with around 5 children, all MARKINSON, but for some reason the parents were listed as PARKINSON ??? Gordon was not amongst the children though, and from a different area.
Gordon allegedly had a sister, Rosemary and a brother Fred. Brother shot and killed whilst serving with Gordon in WWII on French soil, sister (along with Gordon's parents) killed during the Blitz (according to stories my father recalls from Gordon).
Gordon's mother (name unknown) was apparently of French descent. No further details known.
Owing to the fact this information was only found out in the past 12 months, the mystery of his past could possibly have been down to name changes, dates, places etc. A bit of a shot in the dark for me as I'm not that proficient at genealogy to know exactly who or where to research. His marriage to my grandmother Nora, a devout Irish Catholic, would have meant this latest information would have been swept under the carpet, hence why my father's cousin had been sworn to secrecy by his mother, Nora's sister, Margaret. They had moved to Leeds and lived together up until Gordon and Nora met and Married.
According to my father, Gordon never really spoke much of his parents or past, so not much is known. The above information is as concise as I can be based on what I know. It would also be useful to be able to link any leads from Gordon's bigamist marriage.
Any leads, links or information that could open up any new avenues to research would be fantastic, and I thank anyone in advance of anything they can do to assist. 8) ;D :D
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Hi and welcome to Rootschat :)
On Gordon and Nora's marriage certificate, what is Gordon's father's name and occupation?
KR
Gaie
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and a welcome from me .
civilian war dead , Eunice markinson age 23 killed 13 dec 1940 at porter st shelter.
dau of mrs m markinson of 25 guilthwaite crescent , whiston , rotheram . no other civilian markinsons mentioned on commonwealth war graves commission site .
regards
trevor
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Their marriage certificate doesn't have any details for Gordon's father but my mum has just told me Gordon's father was called George and his occupation was as a Horse Trader in London.
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There were four children born with surname Markinson and mother's maiden name Daughtrey between 1911 and 1925, all in Rotherham:
Elsie 1912
Lewis 1914
Susan 1915
Eunice 1917
From FreeBMD: http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl
Gaie
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Have you tried looking for any newspaper archives for that time. Possibly Yorkshire Post or Yorkshire Evening Post. I have someone on my tree who committed bigamy in the 1930s and his court case was reported in the Glasgow newspaper, which gave some interesting detail. Worth a try.
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birth for Eunice markinson reg dist rotheram oct-dec qtr 1917 mothers maiden name daughtrey vol 9c page 1201
marriage
Arthur markinson to may e daughtrey jul- sep 1911 reg dist rotheram vol 9c p 1228
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Interesting case.
I wonder if that was his real name if no birth record exists. Could it be he is registered under mothers maiden name :-\
Have you found him on a census at all in 1901/1911?
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Mmmm, you obviously haven't made much headway since you posted on another site in August last year about your Grandfather. There were a few bigamist marriages late 1930's early 1940's especially with serving personal, my grandfather was a bigamist and only changed his first name.
If your grandfather was on French soil in WW2 are there any medals of his in your family that you know of as you may be able to trace him with a military number.
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Mmmm, you obviously haven't made much headway since you posted on another site in August last year about your Grandfather. There were a few bigamist marriages late 1930's early 1940's especially with serving personal, my grandfather was a bigamist and only changed his first name.
If your grandfather was on French soil in WW2 are there any medals of his in your family that you know of as you may be able to trace him with a military number.
Sadly no headway was made and I had a breather for a while to concentrate on a few other things. I've decided to reopen it now and try explore a few other avenues.
No medals unfortunately, unless my uncles have any, but there has never been any mention of any.
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Interesting case.
I wonder if that was his real name if no birth record exists. Could it be he is registered under mothers maiden name :-\
Its seeming like that is a strong possibility I fear.
I'm not sure how you go about working out if other MARKINSON members from suggested families not known to be connected, are actually connected to my bloodline? As in the case of Eunice MARKINSON of Rotherham, already mentioned.
Have you found him on a census at all in 1901/1911?
Nothing found on the Census no >:(
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When are we thinking he had this bigamous marriage before or after 1945 ???
45 was a little old for a first marriage but if he wasn't imprisoned for it till 1947 does that mean that's when it was found out?
Sorry for not understanding but it all seems a teeny bit fishy to me. I definitely think some name changes have gone on. I can't find a George horse trading and why would George not be on the marriage certificate if he knew who he was and there was nothing to hide :-\
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Bit of a long shot here there is a birth for a Frederick Charles K Wright 4th quarter 1900 in Greenwich. There is also a birth for a Gordon Richard Wright 4th quarter 1902 in Greenwich.
They may not even be related.
We can discount Frederick as he died in 1st quarter of 1901.
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according to 1911 cen it,s Gordon Richmond wright born Greenwich 1903 .
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tmo according to a tree on mundia Gordon Richmond Wright died in 1965 in British Columbia Canada.
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Do you have, or have you considered getting, his military records?
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Clutching at any family that fits even a little with known info.
There's a Gordon R Gardiner age 1 in 1901 with a brother Fred A 2 and sister Rose F 5.
Father is George 34.
Birthplace Kingston Surrey.
However he seems to be Gordon Roberts Gardiner and dies in 1945 :(
5 children baptised at the same time 14 October 1900 - father soldier reservist.
Don't know where they were in 1911, maybe father posted somewhere.
Anyway probably not your man so will stop there :)
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Just throwing this into the topic....
If he was born in 1900 and he was working on the railways, would he have been called up? a)because of his age (too old) and b) the railways were reserved occupations
Did a quick google search for the Green Howards, and they not have seen active service at the front in ww2?
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There appear to have been 3 children born after the 1945 marriage so he couldn't have been in prison very long or he couldn't have fathered 3 children.
Newspaper reports? There might be something about his bigamy/imprisonment in a local paper.
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I did a search of the Yorkshire Post, there are reports of bigamy trials in a lot of issues from 1930-1950 but nothing with his surname.
Also looking at the censuses and the surname is rarely seen down south in and around London, just do a freebmd search for the surname and see where the surname occurs.
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I did a search of the Yorkshire Post, there are reports of bigamy trials in a lot of issues from 1930-1950 but nothing with his surname.
Also looking at the censuses and the surname is rarely seen down south in and around London, just do a freebmd search for the surname and see where the surname occurs.
Well that's saved me some leg work, thank you ;D
I wonder if his origination from London could mean he served his sentence down that end of the country?
•••Updated information•••
Gordon's Father is listed on Gordon/Nora marriage cert as George Markinson deceased, so no occupation to go from. However, there is a John George Markinson listed.
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I'm still very puzzled by this one.
Surely the "second marriage" in 1945 must be the bigamous one and he hadn't been a bigamist until this point. So he can't have been imprisoned before 1945. How was it found out ???
I strongly suspected name changes all round but fathers name, if correct, seems to belie that.
Nothing adds up.
Where is the John George Markinson listed - as a witness on the marriage? Who was the other witness?
Am determined to get somewhere with this one!
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See Dan's thread on Genes Reunited for certificate information. I didn't see it anywhere on this thread so I'll post it now.
http://www.GenesReunited.co.uk/boards/board/ancestors/thread/1307975 (http://www.GenesReunited.co.uk/boards/board/ancestors/thread/1307975)
Marriage Cert:
Gordon and Nora married 10 Sept 1945 Saint Anne's Cathedral, Leeds.
Gordon was aged 45, Tram Car Cleaner, 9 Duxbury Street, Leeds 7.
Nora Reddington was aged 40, Dressmaker, same address as above.
Witnessed by Margaret MacPherson (nee Reddington) and Daniel Hopkins
ErrorSPAM
REPORT THIS POST AS SPAM (Use 'Report to Moderator'). DO NOT CLICK ON ANY LINKS IN THIS POST. DO NOT REPLY TO THIS PERSON.
](but in another post on that thread you say the witnesses were Margaret and Sandie McPherson).[/color]
Death Certs:
Gordon Richard Markinson, Retired Railway Platelayer, 7 Barrowby Crescent, Leeds.
Reg date: 26th March 1971 Leeds
Nora Markinson, widow of above 10 Jan 1975 Leeds
Nora DOB 22nd April 1907
Father on marriage certificate is named as George Markinson, deceased.[/b][/i][/color]
Can you confirm these details are correct Dan?
Cheers,
Paul
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Sandie McPherson was the husband of Norah's sister, Margaret REDDINGTON. Daniel Hopkins was the other witness on the cert who was apparently a friend, along with Margaret.
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One more question please Dan - did he claim to be a bachelor or a widower in 1945?
As mentioned previous if he was busy having a family soon after marriage there doesn't leave much of a gap for a prison sentence. But then I don't know how long a sentence he would have got :-\
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His marriage certificate states he is a bachelor.
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Dan,
Please read my last post on your thread at Yorkshire Indexers
http://www.yorkshireindexers.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?5019-Looking-for-Grandfather-MARKINSON-and-parents-Bigamist (http://www.yorkshireindexers.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?5019-Looking-for-Grandfather-MARKINSON-and-parents-Bigamist)
Thanks,
Paul
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Dan,
There does seem to be more than a little vagueness in the information you're providing.
How much of it is just stories that have been handed down and how much of it is actual fact?
Well obviously actual fact would have to be backed up, so with this in mind, the only FACT I hold would have to the hard evidence of BMD certificates of the following:
Gordon's Marriage (to Nora) and death certificates
Nora's Birth, Baptism, Marriage (as above) and death certificates.
I agree that is the DOB shown on his death registration but how do you know he was born "somewhere in London" when you don't have his birth certificate and he can't be found on either the 1901 nor the 1911 census?
Mainly going on what info I have been given from my Dad and Mum.
Do you have confirmation of this? Have you tried contacting the regiment?
I may be wrong, and please correct me if I am, but I was always under the impression that the Green Howards were always based in the North Riding.
I haven't contacted the GH as yet, but Gordon was based at a Barracks in Leeds. We have a portrait of him from when he was in the Green Howards (somewhere - I am trying to get hold of this). The GH have a head office up in Richmond N.Yorks but their regiments, I am lead to believe, were scattered. As far as I am aware, based on internet evidence, the GH in Yorkshire were actually known as the Yorkshire Regiment, 8th Foot Battalion (citation needed on this).
I found no record of him in the Ancestry UK Railway Employment Records.
His occupation on his marriage cert states he was a Tram Car Cleaner, and on his death cert as Retired Railway Platelayer. Info given to me by my Dad was that he worked for the GNER. Nothing to substantiate this though.
She died in 1975 (as shown in post #2) and her death registration shows she was born in 1907. I did find her birth in the Irish Civil Registration Birth Index.According to my dad, the BMD office in Dublin was destroyed in a fire. I have nothing to back this up though.
Name: Norah Reddington
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1907
Registration District: Ballina
Birth Country: Ireland
Volume: 4
Page: 9
FHL Film Number: 101071
May I ask where from and just how did that information "come to light"?
Nora's sister, Margaret actually told her daughter this information before her death, but made her swear to secrecy that she wouldn't divulge this info to my father or his brothers. Instead Her brother obtained this info from her and told my father himself. According to this information from Margaret's daughter, the only person who knew of this act of bigamy was Nora and her sister Margaret.
I spoke to Margaret's son today regarding this with hopes the witness Daniel Hopkins, to Gordon and Nora's marriage my either have mentioned some other missing clue to any of his living relatives, or may have been around to ask in person. Sadly he died earlier this year.
Again, according to this information, Gordon left a wife and family down South somewhere before he married Nora.
A little vague.
etc, etc.
Sorry to go on Dan but do you see what I'm getting at?
You need to be more concise and post another message telling us everything that you know to be true which you can back up with documented information.
If this was a Court of Law the case would have been dismissed a long time before it went to the jury.
Where is your evidence?
I don't mean to be rude but several people already (in other forums) have been running around in circles and haven't found anything.
Let's have the facts. Forget about the rumours. Just go through all the official documents and stuff that you can verify and repost with information from that and we'll take it from there.
Thanks. Please don't get mad at me! All of us want to help but you have to help us too. And you did ask for help!
Kindest regards,
Paul
PS. To be notified of replies to this thread you need to go to "Thread Tools" at the top and select "Subscribe to this Thread"
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I do understand what you are saying and appreciate all the help you are putting in. The problem is that only having a few hard copy BMDs, all you can go on are things told by relatives.
Someone having a southern accent indeed would not constitute coming specifically from London - however, if my father can recall Gordon telling him he "was born behind the Arsenal Football ground", would that not be evidence of him coming from the Highbury area of London? He was also an avid Arsenal FC fan.
My father also states the following based on recollections of 'what his father told him':
Gordon was named after the famous jokey - Gordon Richards.
His mother was French.
His father was a horse breeder.
My father was born in 1947
He has two brothers born in 1948 and 1951 so would this not suggest Gordon's timings for conceiving his sons?
Gordon (according to Margaret's son's hand-me-down stories), had an older family - I am currently trying to obtain more info on this to elaborate whether this meant he had older siblings, or if this is in relation to his 1st marriage to unknown wife no.1 of bigamist marriage.
He served his prison sentence at Armley Jail in Leeds, I am suspecting sometime between 1947 and 1951,
His earlier claim that the BMD office in (?) London (?), burnt down destroying his birth cert, could well be an 'easy way out', of destroying his original name, pinched from Nora's claim of the same.
If the police managed to catch up with him, they obviously had some information that could be the missing link here; original name? Address?
My guess to finding this missing link would either be down to his army service, or within his prison sentence?
If the recorded bigamy sentences already found reveal nothing on a Gordon Richard Markinson, could this be down to him being imprisoned under his REAL name? Could this REAL name be the one held by the Green Howards.
I do intend to do some leg work on this when I get time, as well as scanning in and uploading the documents I hold to somewhere that can be viewed.
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OK.
But so far you really haven't give me any hard evidence to work from.
Get back to me when you do have some.
Kindest regards,
Paul
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Maybe he simply didnt commit bigimy ;D
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"He served his prison sentence at Armley Jail in Leeds, I am suspecting sometime between 1947 and 1951"
Please elaborate on that ... right now I'm having a laugh and sharing it too.
Where did that come from?
The man is innocent and I don't believe he was ever proven to be guilty.
Dan, I think you are taking us for a ride here?
Paul
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Maybe he simply didnt commit bigimy ;D
Questions to be asked. I tend to agree.
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Gordon was named after the famous jokey - Gordon Richards.
Hi - the jockey (Sir) Gordon Richards was born in 1904 and made his racing debut (according to online sources) in about 1920-1921.
So a child born in or about 1900 cannot have been named (at birth) after the jockey. However, it might be worth keeping in mind the possibility that in renaming himself as an adult (if he did) he chose to name himself after the jockey.
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Given that (allegedly) his father was a "horse trader" I suppose it's quite possible.
Personally, I think not. That's just my opinion.
Did I spell "opinion" right?
Paul
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I've been thinking about this one ::)
Firstly ;D I dont know anything about the UK electoral registers but could it be checked in anyway to see when he first turned up around the Leeds area? ??? And if anyone else with the same name was at the address as well.
Secondly ;D IF he was in the military i wonder if he could have married overseas while serving ???
Ooops forgot to ask poster where did he get the date of birth for Gordon from.
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He got the DOB from the GRO index entry for his death ...
Name: MARKINSON, Gordon Richard
Registration district: Leeds
County: Yorkshire
Year of registration: 1971
Quarter of registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
Date of Birth: 9 December 1900
Volume no: 2C
Page no: 731
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"He served his prison sentence at Armley Jail in Leeds, I am suspecting sometime between 1947 and 1951"
Please elaborate on that ... right now I'm having a laugh and sharing it too.
Where did that come from?
The man is innocent and I don't believe he was ever proven to be guilty.
Dan, I think you are taking us for a ride here?
Paul
I'm actually quite offended by this response Paul and sorry you feel this way. I can assure you that I am not trying to take anyone "for a ride", but quite simply trying to trace my father's family tree. short of inventing a time machine and going back to gather your 'hard evidence', all I have to work with are stories and this I have been passed on from my relatives. if this is to be your response to my adding for help, perhaps you should focus your attention on someone with more 'hard evidence' than I unfortunately don't have.
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My grandmother's first husband committed bigamy in the 1940's in Scotland and did 6 months in jail for it. He had used his proper name on both marriages ::) I have newspaper articles and some of his prison info but with him having used his proper name it was all very easy to track down.
Family stories can change as it gets passed down so its not always easy to trace but in time it all gets sorted ;D
I did notice that Nora and Margaret both married a little older than the usual age for a first marriage.
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Am i right in saying that for now it is only assumed that he was born in the London area?
Just another thought was if his mother was infact French maybe his parents married in France and the kids were born there, hence not finding them on a UK census.
Also if you havent already maybe see if there is a death notice or obituary for Gordon Richard. Sometimes they might have little bits of info in them that can lead to somewhere.
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Am i right in saying that for now it is only assumed that he was born in the London area?
Just another thought was if his mother was infact French maybe his parents married in France and the kids were born there, hence not finding them on a UK census.
Also if you havent already maybe see if there is a death notice or obituary for Gordon Richard. Sometimes they might have little bits of info in them that can lead to somewhere.
Yes indeed, unfortunately a lot of the points I have listed have been (what is appearing to be) Chinese whisper tales which may have indeed been altered or even made up. unfortunately for me, this is all I have to go on until proven impossible.
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Sometimes it is the "Chinese whispers" which provide the clue to solving a difficult puzzle. I spent years hunting for records of my gg-grandfather in Scotland. It was a chance (and almost entirely inaccurate) remark by a very elderly great-aunt which set me on the right track to finding him - on the run from the authorities, using an alias, in the Amazon basin.
Noting down every piece of oral history, with its source, is absolutely the right thing to do - hope we (collectively) can help you make a breakthrough on this one.
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If he had a complete name change (first, middle and last) then we are never going to find him from birth indexes.
Plus if those are made up names then the fathers name on the marriage cert must also be made up.
One can't be true and the other false if you see what I mean.
Newspapers, newspapers, newspapers is the only thing I can see that might give us some info.
As I said before if he was busy having a family after marriage he can't have been in prison at the same time - unless he served a less than 9 month sentence (I don't know how long he would have got)
Have to confess I was disbelieving about this one as well but it could be the way the info has been coming across. I do understand with very little fact to go on one has to turn to bits of family rumour as that is all you have :)
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Thank you for this positive response, I really appreciate this, and yes, I hope of what stories I have been passed, some will lead to a positive result.
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I'm sure there will be elements of truth in this once we get to the bottom of it.
I'm puzzled though by the choice of surname if he was using if this is as an alias.
Looking at the birth, marriage and death indexes, Markinson is almost unique to Leeds and Yorkshire uUntil the later parts of the 20th century) in its distribution. Of all the surnames, why chose this one?
I'll have another look through the newspapers and the later bigamy reports, the papers are transcribed using ocr software and they aren't always accurate.
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I'm sure there will be elements of truth in this once we get to the bottom of it.
I'm puzzled though by the choice of surname if he was using if this is as an alias.
Looking at the birth, marriage and death indexes, Markinson is almost unique to Leeds and Yorkshire uUntil the later parts of the 20th century) in its distribution. Of all the surnames, why chose this one?
I'll have another look through the newspapers and the later bigamy reports, the papers are transcribed using ocr software and they aren't always accurate.
This was my thoughts entirely. Surely if the bigamy tale is true and he was trying to bury his past, he would've gone for a more common surname?
There are a number of Markinson lines within the Jewish community, non to my knowledge related to my family.
If I need to spend time looking through somewhere for clues, please let me know as I'm not 100% sure where I need to be digging but don't mind. My thoughts and intentions at this point are to contact the prison archives and look through archives of Yorkshire Post editions, even for totally different names of bigamists at that time.
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If the bigamy was in a newspaper then it should be under the name Markinson because that is the name he was a bigamist under.
He wasn't one until the marriage in 1945 as everything was "above board" until then.
He carried on in life with that name so that must be the name he was charged under. I don't see how looking at bigamists with different names is going to help.
That's just how I see it I'm no expert but I do think newspapers is the way to go. I know there was a Leeds Mercury but not sure what years it covered.
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If the bigamy was in a newspaper then it should be under the name Markinson because that is the name he was a bigamist under.
He wasn't one until the marriage in 1945 as everything was "above board" until then.
He carried on in life with that name so that must be the name he was charged under. I don't see how looking at bigamists with different names is going to help.
That's just how I see it I'm no expert but I do think newspapers is the way to go. I know there was a Leeds Mercury but not sure what years it covered.
I'm no expert either but the way I saw it was that if the police caught up with him and he had changed his name, they must have had another name for him, presumably his 'real' name, so would he not be either jailed under that name, or have both names listed, as in an a.k.a.?
The Yorkshire Post in Leeds has been running since 1754.
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Yes I understand what you're saying.
I should be at the library tomorrow so will check what papers they have online.
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I tried to work out possible dates for him being 'caught' and based on my father and uncles ages: my dad was born in '47, his brothers were born in '48 and '51 so reckon it to be somewhere around these days. it might narrow it down somewhat?
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None of the publications listed for Leeds on the British Newspapers Archive site go up as far as 1945 :(
Had a thought if his name doesn't come up probably his wife's name would be mentioned wouldn't it as the innocent party. If her maiden name went in a search maybe that would bring up something? If we can find a paper covering the right time that is.
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I've had this email from the Wakefield Archives in West Yorkshire today who handle the prison deeds for Armley Prison. It might be something to go on.
We have now undertaken a search of the Armley Prison collection (ref. C187) and I am afraid we were not able to find an entry for Gordon Richard Markinson. There was, however an entry for a Gordon Rowland Markerson imprisoned at a similar date to your enquiry. This gentleman seemed to match the description you had given and was imprisoned for a similar offence. He was admitted to the prison on the 22nd of October 1949 and was released on the 9th of January 1950.
I have undertaken a search on the website freebmd.org and was able to find a marriage entry for George Markerson to Phyllis Oakley in March of 1934. I was not able to find a birth entry of registration of death for Gordon R. Markerson.
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4 Markerson/mmn Oakley children born in Aylesbury 1934-1945.
Won't name them here as they are most probably still living.
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Looks like Phyllis remarried in the 1950's and died in 1972.
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There are even fewer Markerson entries in the bmd indexes
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Well that's certainly an intriguing development :)
You've probably already seen this, but the bridegroom referred to in the archivist's email as George M________. was in fact Gordon R. M______ (Aylesbury, Mar qtr 1934).
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Oh that's quite some news isn't it. Similar names indeed and the dates fit between when he was between fathering children.
There are a few Markerson marriages in Aylesbury say no more.
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I wonder if the Oakley/Markerson marriage ended in divorce if she remarried in 1950's?
It would also be interesting to learn the other details given at the time of the 1934 marriage eg groom's father's name and occupation and grooms age.
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It would also be interesting to learn the other details given at the time of the 1934 marriage eg groom's father's name and occupation and grooms age.
Agreed - also any other details appearing in the Armley records kept at Wakefield - possibly DOB etc?
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Hang on a second though births from the Markerson marriage go right up to Jun 1945 so can he really be the same man who moved to Leeds and married in the next quarter :-\
Not much time to meet anyone else let alone court and marry them is it - just not sure this is the same man.
Plus if he got divorced from first wife he can't have committed bigamy. If they didn't get divorced then she (Phyllis) shouldn't have been remarrying either. What a tangle.
Finding a death for this chap before she remarried would be a bonus and rule him out as the man we are after.
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Definitely more needed to say it's the same man - but it may be that the Armley records can link the two satisfactorily. If he is the same man, it may be that in wartime he spent time away from his Aylesbury home & developed another relationship in parallel to his marriage.
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Freebmd has no Markerson deaths after 1934.
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Just wanted to say that these are rare names, and a casual google by a family member or neighbour will come straight to this thread. We must be very careful what is posted.
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Baring in mind I am trying to trace my family tree and nothing so far derogatory has been written, can you please explain the issue here? :) Just asking
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Definitely more needed to say it's the same man - but it may be that the Armley records can link the two satisfactorily. If he is the same man, it may be that in wartime he spent time away from his Aylesbury home & developed another relationship in parallel to his marriage.
I will email them back and ask if there is any further information they can divulge.
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Baring in mind I am trying to trace my family tree and nothing so far derogatory has been written, can you please explain the issue here? :) Just asking
The concern raised is not a criticism of you (or anyone else) but just a recognition that the subject-matter is sensitive and may be pertinent to (other) living people. One of the moderators will no doubt step in if any post oversteps the mark with respect to Rootschat's rules and guidelines.
Back on topic, it may be that newspapers from the relevant time (not currently available online) would be illuminating. The Yorkshire Post and its sister newspaper the Yorkshire Evening Post were both published in Leeds in the late 1940s (and still are). You may get assistance from WYAS Leeds: http://www.wyjs.org.uk/archives-leeds.asp.
Added: ...and/or Leeds Central Library, as mentioned in this old thread: http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=102470.0
(Just seen from earlier in the thread (reply #19) that Dawn has already kindly searched the Yorkshire Post for the first-mentioned version of the surname).
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Dan. the concern is not a criticism of you (or anyone else) but just a recognition that the subject-matter is sensitive and may be pertinent to (other) living people. One of the moderators will no doubt step in if any post oversteps the mark with respect to Rootschat's rules and guidelines.
No, I understand and this is perfectly fine ;D
Back on topic, it may be that newspapers from the relevant time (not currently available online) would be illuminating. The Yorkshire Post and its sister newspaper the Yorkshire Evening Post were both published in Leeds in the late 1940s (and still are). You may get assistance from WYAS Leeds: http://www.wyjs.org.uk/archives-leeds.asp.
Added: ...and/or Leeds Central Library, as mentioned in this old thread: http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=102470.0
The WYAS are who provided me with this latest information regarding this new name lead in connection with the prison sentence. I emailed them last week.
I was intending to go and look at some micro film archive when I had an idea which direction to go in. This new information could possibly help a great deal with that. :)
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The WYAS are who provided me with this latest information regarding this new name lead in connection with the prison sentence. I emailed them last week.
Yes, my thought was simply that WYAS Leeds may have records which WYAS Wakefield don't have (I confess I don't know how interlinked their respective catalogues are).
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Baring in mind I am trying to trace my family tree and nothing so far derogatory has been written, can you please explain the issue here? :) Just asking
The concern raised is not a criticism of you (or anyone else) but just a recognition that the subject-matter is sensitive and may be pertinent to (other) living people. One of the moderators will no doubt step in if any post oversteps the mark with respect to Rootschat's rules and guidelines.
This is exactly what I meant, and absolutely no criticism of anyone was intended, just a warning that others may be involved and to tread carefully.
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Just to let you know, as a moderator and a contributor I have been watching this topic carefully and so far everything is just about within the boundaries we have here. see my comment in reply #52.
Dan, if money is no object and you can wait 5 days, it wouldn't be a bad idea to get the 1934 marriage to see what details are contained in it, bearing in mind though that this could be a red herring and you can't send tyhe cert back if it's wrong.
If Gordon has fibbed on the 2nd marriage, he may have fibbed a bit on the first.
Dawn
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If Gordon has fibbed on the 2nd marriage, he may have fibbed a bit on the first.
If indeed it was his first...
(By which I simply mean it may be worth bearing in mind the possibility that the 1934 marriage wasn't his first, no trace of him in that name having yet been found before that date. Again, the court/prison records from the late 1940s may assist on his marital history, if it's the same person).
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Dan, if money is no object and you can wait 5 days, it wouldn't be a bad idea to get the 1934 marriage to see what details are contained in it, bearing in mind though that this could be a red herring and you can't send the cert back if it's wrong.
Lol, if money was no object I would hire someone to do EVERYTHING for me lol. Seriously though, how would I go about purchasing said cert, and what would I be looming at as a price? I don't mind paying for 'possible' leads if they may direct us, within reason of course. :-)
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Hi
Order certificates directly from the GRO:
http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/
You have to register, but it's free.
Cost is £9.25 including postage wherever you are in the world.
When filling in the form, click on the option that you do know the details, which are:
March Quarter 1934
Registration District: Aylesbury
Volume: 3a
Page: 2086
Gordon R MARKERSON
Phyllis E OAKLEY
or whatever order it is on the form.
KR
Gaie
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It may well be the best £9-25p you ever spent Dan, if it was me I would take the plunge, until you find anything in the newspapers, I don't think you will move forward with him, I have a great great grandfather who was just the same, but he used more elaborate names, such as Marco Emile De St Hilaire and Alexander Charles Borromeo, when his real name was Charles Tucker, I had to go down to Kew just to move on another 4 years, still don't know what became of him when he was released from prison.
Regards Pat.
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Have sent you the details in a message Dan but someone has posted it above so you are all set to go.
I think we all look forward to knowing what it says as much as you!
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Marriage certificate ordered. Fingers crossed
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I'm afraid I haven't been able to help but spent yesterday afternoon looking for Gordon Ronald's born 1900 but to no avail so will be waiting with beited breath for the certificate to arrive!
Good luck
Suziq
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I'm afraid I haven't been able to help but spent yesterday afternoon looking for Gordon Ronald's born 1900 but to no avail so will be waiting with beited breath for the certificate to arrive!
Good luck
Suziq
Am I getting confused here? I thought it was Gordon Rowland he was called (or was that just a type error Suziq?)
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Name: Gordon Richard MARKINSON
b. 09/12/1900 somewhere in London (no birth certificate records)
d. 26/03/1971 in Leeds, West Yorkshire
From the first post. I thought we were looking for Gordon Richard Markinson?
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He became Gordon Richard Markinson but the prison record name (which may or may not be the same man) is under the name Gordon Rowland Markerson. However this may not have been his birth name either seeing as we can't find a birth under either name.
See post below for clarification.
We have now undertaken a search of the Armley Prison collection (ref. C187) and I am afraid we were not able to find an entry for Gordon Richard Markinson. There was, however an entry for a Gordon Rowland Markerson imprisoned at a similar date to your enquiry. This gentleman seemed to match the description you had given and was imprisoned for a similar offence. He was admitted to the prison on the 22nd of October 1949 and was released on the 9th of January 1950.
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Thanks for clarifying that Milliepede.
I must have missed that update ;)
Carol
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I had an email today to inform me that the marriage certificate of Gordon to Phyllis will be dispatched on the 26th if this month due to a back log
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Thanks Dan,
Please keep us informed ...
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I messaged WYJS Archive Services to ask if they had any further information on Gordon Rowland Markeson. This was their reply received today:
I am afraid there are no details listed for the home address of Gordon Rowland Markerson. The only other information listed is that he was committed at Leeds and was born in Newark.
In terms of information held in other sources it would be possible to trace George Rowland Markerson through the electoral registers, this would give you an idea who he was living with at that time. This collection is held at our Wakefield office and is open to the public.
We also hold the West Riding Registry of Deeds which consists of memorial copies of deeds for land that was registered between the dates of 1704 and 1970. It is therefore possible that you may be able to find out if Mr Markerson owned any land in the county.
I'm hoping to receive the marriage certificate for this chap any day soon to add to this. Not sure what to make of this though if I'm honest. Newark certainly wouldn't be classed south enough for him to have had a 'southern' accent, not unless he moved their shortly after he was born.
Does anyone have access to registries for this area to seek information as to whether he owned land or not?
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Oh gosh Newark now? I don't even know where that is except in America and presume they don't mean that one or he would indeed have an accent!
Hope the certificate is more enlightening Dan.
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Newark is in Nottinghamshire and would definitely be considered to be farther south than Yorkshire ;D
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Newark was also a target of German bombing in WWII. However, none of the CWGC's lists of civilian deaths in Newark match with the details mentioned earlier in the thread:
http://www.cwgc.org/find-a-cemetery/cemetery/4004969/NEWARK%20ON%20TRENT,%20MUNICIPAL%20BOROUGH
Have you tried contacting the MOD for a copy of his service records for WWII?
http://www.veterans-uk.info/service_records/service_records.html
at least perhaps to confirm if he can be found under the name/birthdate you have for him.
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just got the marriage cert for Gordon and Nora:
information from marriage certificate which I purchased last week:
Married: 3 February 1934 - The Registry Office, Aylesbury, Buckingham
Gordon Roland MARKESON
Born: 1905
Profession: Engineer
Residence at time of marriage: Swan House, Holly Tree Lane, Cuddington, Buckingham HP18 0BG (still standing apparently - Grade 2 listed building)
Father: George MARKESON (his profession: buarker) apparently a buarker is a soldier???
Spouse: Phyllis Emily OAKLEY
Born: 1917
Residence: she also lived at Swan House
Fathers name: William his prefession was builder.
Was at the registry office witnessed by H MARTIN and l MARTIN (or could be MASDIN)
what does any one think? Same man?
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I'm actually struggling to read Gordon's profession now I look at it again. Looks like it's 'Coelum Breaker'.
Can we post images up on here?
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You can post images, but preferably just the part of the image you're having trouble with, not the whole certificate. When you post, click "Attachments and other options" to add an image.
In common with earlier mentions that his father was a horse trader, could it be something like "colt breaker"?
It could be the same man. We have the father as George; the occupation as generic "Engineer" which could fit with his later work as a platelayer. The age variation is not unexpected, either. Witnesses could possibly be Phyllis's sister/brother in law as I can see a Martin/Oakley marriage.
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It is very possible.
I'm not sure if this will read week enough to decipher but here goes...
*attachment*
it is easy to seer how the surname could write easily have been changed to MARKINSON when you see the handwriting on this document.
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I'd agree that the occupation could easily be "Colt breaker" and I agree with josose's conclusion that it could well be the same man. In fact, I'd go for "95% certainly the same man".
The bride at the first marriage was only 17, so Gordon may have knocked a few years off his age to disguise the fact he was twice her age, or maybe he added a few years later to cover his tracks.
Doesn't get us much nearer to finding his birth or origins, though :-\
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Hope I haven't missed this,Phyllie E Markerson married George Chowns in Aylesbury in 1958 and died
Phyllis Emily Chowns DOB 2 Jul 1916 died Dec 1972 in Oxford aged 56
Volume 6b Page 2819
Births Sep 1916
Oakley Phyllis E mmn Wilson Aylesbury 3a 1797
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Definitely "colt breaker" to my eyes. Interesting that he's listed his father as deceased (conflicts with earlier mentioned family stories about parents + sister dying in the Blitz)
freebmd.rootsweb.com shows:
WIlliam Oakley m. 1904 Aylesbury to Louisa Wilson
a possible older child for this couple, Gladys L(illian) Oakley b. 1906 and m. 1926 to a Herbert G Martin which would cover the witnesses.
Still cannot find anything concrete about Gordon or father George. It's looking quite likely that there was a George, colt/horse breaker/trader (or somehow otherwise engaged in that industry), possibly with some link to Newark, but almost certainly not with the surname of Mark(in/er)son.
The two documents to go after now, I would think:
Gordon's military records (I linked to the MOD a couple of posts up)
Any newspaper records for the 1949/50 case (copies may be held, possibly on microfilm, by either WYJS or in the British Library's newspaper collection - but I think the later is about to be moved so not a good time. Either way would probably require someone to visit in person).
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Nice one Jorose, thank you.
Not quite the positive I was hoping for but then, it wouldn't so much fun if it was ask straight forward would it.
I was thinking of contracting the Green Howard's regarding this new name search to see what they could unfold.
Would searching in person, microfiche records of either newspapers or past MOD info reveal anything or is this something that had already been explored online?
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If you want to look through newspapers at the British Library in Colindale, you'll need to get a move on as they plan to close permanently 1st week of November. Everything is moving to Boston Spa and won't be available at the British Library at St Pancras until February 2014. Once moved, you'll have to give 48hrs notice at St Pancras so they can order things to be delivered from Boston.
Having seen earlier bigamy reports in the Yorkshire newspapers, I don't think you'll actually gain anymore information than you'll already been given. There were so many bigamy reports I don't think they were actually that newsworthy.
here's a clip from 1944
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what I need to do is find info on Gordon Roland Markerson's mother to fund out if she was French. That would be a deff confirmation of the same guy, based on what my Grandfather told my dad.
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Would there be any mileage in contacting the 4 children born after 1934- they all married in the same area as Phyllis and Gordon's marriage by the way.I wonder if he stayed around for long or if they know what happened to him?
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I was (tentatively) wondering that too. Two are deceased I think. Obviously this would be very sensitive territory. The Leeds "marriage" took place just months after the birth of the youngest child.
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Definitely, yes. I've just set up a public tree based on what we know so far about Gordon and Phyllis to see if possibly any of their relatives come forward with any info.
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Definitely, yes. I've just set up a public tree based on what we know so far about Gordon and Phyllis to see if possibly any of their relatives come forward with any info.
Possibly yes. My theory is that anyone on an ancestry site is obviously looking for answers. I think you have to be prepared that some of the responses will shock or surprise.
Just my theory 8)
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Where has the info on the children of Gordon/Phyllis come from?
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The children can be found on FreeBMD. Enter surname Markerson with mother's maiden name Oakley.
Too recent to post here.
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OK I'll have a look thank you
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Also check your PM inbox...
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What a fascinating story and helpful people! Hang in there, as bit by bit it unravels. My grey great grandfather's story took two years to unravel, with countless hours involved, and only because of the generous help of Rootschatters!! The family stories all proved to be true and I have gone back two more generations.
Good luck Tiki
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What a fascinating story and helpful people! Hang in there, as bit by bit it unravels. My grey great grandfather's story took two years to unravel, with countless hours involved, and only because of the generous help of Rootschatters!! The family stories all proved to be true and I have gone back two more generations.
Good luck Tiki
I actually can't thank you guys enough for the help you've already given me in getting to this level. Sometimes it's the little snippets of info from you guys, from your experience of these things, that has helped. This is probably the 3rd or 4th time I've tried to seek my Grandfather's past, and it can be off putting when you feel ever avenue I seek is the wrong one.
I won't be deterred though.
Thanks you all so much 8) 8)
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Is it possible to search for "colt breaker" as occupation on census?
Worth a shot to see if a likely looking George pops up.
Still fiddling about with names trying to find a birth but no luck.
If he did have a French mother could he have been born abroad :-\
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M3D1C_Dan,
Have you seen this? http://www.lostcomms.co.uk/forum/displaytopic.asp?T=15256&P=1
So they have been looking, and given that at least two of the siblings are already deceased I think that time is of the essence!
Debra :)
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Fantastic find Debra!
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Brilliant find :) The person who posted the message seems to be easy to trace/contact online.
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Ooh that's good and did you notice he has the names switched round to Roland Gordon 8)
I was looking for Rolands this afternoon. To no avail I might add. I can see this one is going to continue for a few pages yet!
I can't understand why you would make up/change a name from the off when there is nothing to hide. Subsequent marriages yes but not for the first or for your birth just doesn't make sense.
I'm sure someone would have found a birth by now or a census entry.
Any other little snippets you can tell us about him Dan that might not seem relevant but could help in some way? :)
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Sadly no in terms of anything additional.
On a plus note, a massive thank you to Debra for posting the link on the Forces Forum from someone looking for their grandfather's history.
I contacted the poster yesterday through various means at my disposal ;) and managed to get in contact with her grandfather, Ernest MARKERSON. Ernest is Gordon's brother who, from information he gave me, struck too many coincidences for my liking. See what you make of this:
Ernest is the son of Gordon Roland MARKERSON and Phyllis Emily OAKLEY.
His father joined the army and left his mother when Ernest was 10 years old.
He recalls his G/father being called George and being a horse breeder (of sorts), which would tie in with the 'Colt Breaker' on Gordon & Phyllis' wedding cert.
He knows Gordon left and moved to Leeds where he had a family, but the last he heard of Gordon was when he returned to Ernest and his wife's wedding in 1956.
He never heard from him after this.
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Library computers weren't being very helpful today (searches taking too long that kind of thing)
I found one "colt breaker" called George. He was George Baker born 1851 Hailsham Sussex which sounds most unlikely.
Maybe someone with FindMyPast could have a look for horse traders called George? Has to be worth a shot tho I suppose he could have had that profession after 1911 so it wouldn't come up on a census :-\
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There is a George WILSON (Horse Breaker) living in Southwell, Nottinghamshire in 1911. Southwell being about 9 miles from Newark. Maybe worth following up?
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In 1901 he is coachman at a livery stables. Born Westby Lincs.
George R age 32
Wife Sarah A 40
daughter Emily R 3
boarder Edward Storey 17 who is a groom
Would be interesting to see if the R stood for Roland! He only admits to one child in 1911.
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That is great news that you have made contact, possibly not the easiest thing you have had to do? It does seem likely that they are the same person and perhaps an exchange of photos will clinch it?
The next step would be to chase up his service record to see what he says about himself.
At the moment I am leaning toward some sort of alien involvement ;D
Debra :)
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So glad you were able to make contact :)
As Debra says, it all points to Gordon Roland Markerson and Gordon Richard Markinson being one and the same person, doesn't it.
It would be fascinating to see any surviving military records of his.
I have to say it does seem surprising, given his supposed birthdate of Dec 1900 (or even 1904-5 as per the 1st marriage cert), that he would be joining the Army as late as about 1944. Could it have been a cover story for his trips to Leeds?
I also have a niggling doubt about whether he was really a bachelor when he married Phyllis in 1934, or whether he might have a secret past under another name.
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In 1901 he is coachman at a livery stables. Born Westby Lincs.
George R age 32
Wife Sarah A 40
daughter Emily R 3
boarder Edward Storey 17 who is a groom
Would be interesting to see if the R stood for Roland! He only admits to one child in 1911.
The R in George R Wilson's name may be for Rockett - can't quite pin him down at birth or in 1871, but he may have been born before the marriage of his mother Emily Rockett to George Wilson, Mar qtr 1869 Goole.
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There is a George WILSON (Horse Breaker) living in Southwell, Nottinghamshire in 1911. Southwell being about 9 miles from Newark. Maybe worth following up?
In 1881 he is with his mother Emily ("husband out") & siblings Kate, Willie, Charlie & Frank at 154, Cheapside, Worksop, Notts.
He's not with the family in Southwell in 1891 (RG12 / Piece: 2707 / Folio: 54 / Page: 19).
His father George (b.1846, Kirkby, Lincs) is working as a Stud / Groom / Domestic Servant.
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Just for thoroughness of investigation the other colt breaker George Baker from Sussex was married to Agnes and had 11 children by 1911.
1901 - colt breaker
1891 - colt breaker
1881 - coachman
Don't think he is the George we are after but never know with this one. He does have a son called George born 1875.
Son George a coachman marries Kate and is with her and their 3 children Viletta 4 George 2 Ada 1 in 1901. So there we have another George. I wonder now if Gordon was really a George.
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I have a horrible feeling that GRM's birth name may be something entirely different from what we have seen.
On the family rumour that he was "named after the famous jockey, Gordon Richards" - Gordon Richards was champion jockey in the following years:
1925, 1927-1929
1931-1940
1942-1953
So if our man was into the horses and wanted to pluck an appropriate alibi out of the air (say) when he met Phyllis and married her in 1934, "Gordon Richard" might well have appealed.
Added: hmmm, though he actually called himself Gordon Roland when he married Phyllis, didn't he.
Perhaps I'll do a timeline!
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Totally agree. His real birth name could be absolutely anything. And if his name is wrong it stands to reason his fathers name - surname at least - on the certificates is also wrong.
The puzzle is why would he need a fake name for marriage number one if there was nothing to hide? Unless, as I think you mentioned previous, it wasn't marriage number one!
Who was he between birth and marriage ???
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Here's a summary so far:
GRM timeline
Birthplace: possibly London (Highbury/Arsenal) per 2nd family tradition; Newark per prison records.
Mother: possibly French. Father: horse breeder. Siblings: Frederick, Rosemary - all per 2nd family tradition; GRM claimed they all died in WW2, and that his birth records had been destroyed in a fire.
1899-1900: Birthdate, per 2nd marriage cert.
1900 (9 Dec): Birthdate, per death registration.
1904-1905: Birthdate, per 1st marriage cert
1934 (3 Feb): Gordon Roland MARKERSON (bach, 29, engineer) marries Phyllis Emily OAKLEY (17), Aylesbury reg office. His father George, a colt breaker (decd). Bride & groom both of Swan House, Cuddington. Witnesses likely related to Phyllis.
1934 (Sep qtr): Son born, first marriage.
1938 (Mar qtr): Daughter born, first marriage (now decd).
1940 (Jun qtr): Daughter born, first marriage.
1944-5 (abt): Left his family and went to join the Army (per first family). Served in Green Howards, Claypit Lane, Leeds (per second family, who have a portrait of him in the Green Howards).
1945 (April): Son born, first marriage (now decd).
1945 (10 Sep): Gordon Richard MARKINSON (bach, 45, tram car cleaner) marries Nora REDDINGTON (40), Leeds. His father George, decd (no occupation stated). Marriage witnessed by friends Margaret McPherson & Daniel Hopkins (now deceased).
1947 (Sep qtr): Son born, second marriage.
1948 (Mar qtr): Son born, second marriage.
1949 (22 Oct): GRM imprisoned as Gordon Rowland MARKERSON, Armley Jail (Leeds), for bigamy.
1950 (9 Jan): GRM released from prison.
1951 (Mar qtr): Son born, second marriage.
1956 (Sep qtr): GRM attends Aylesbury wedding of eldest son from first marriage. Not seen again by him.
1958 (Jun qtr): Phyllis MARKERSON nee OAKLEY remarries – new name CHOWNS.
1971 (26 Mar): Dies as Gordon Richard MARKINSON (retired railway platelayer), Leeds. Second family believe he had worked for the GNER.
1972 (Dec qtr): Death of Phyllis Emily CHOWNS formerly MARKERSON nee OAKLEY, Oxford.
1975 (Mar qtr): Death of Norah [sic] MARKINSON, Leeds.
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I do think the Assize papers from the bigamy trial, if available, may be illuminating.
I wonder whether candleflame got anywhere with this similar inquiry?:
www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=505023.0
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Hi
I've been following this thread with interest. :) However no I have not as yet been able to do anything about visiting either Leeds/Wakefield or National Archives simply due to expense and working, so its on the waiting list of things to do - a bit like all those certificates that you would LOVE to get but are not absolutely essential.
Was bouyed by the fact that the poster had received a reply from the Wakefield Archives. I was curious as to whether they would have had to pay for that archive search as most archives charge these days it would appear. I don't mind that they have to charge as they have had budget cuts, but I have to be realistic as to how I spend on this what can be quite expensive hobby/passion. ( subs just been renewed on my one annual online sub to a well known provider :))
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Thanks for the summary AVM228
I have been following this fascinating thread with interest although I haven't found anything more than other Rootschatters. My gg grandmother committed bigamy although she didnt change her name so it was much easier to research.
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As a bit of a novice, can I ask a question - if Phyllis Oakley was GRMs first wife, how was she able to marry George Chowns in 1958. Was there a divorce from GRM. I know he 'married' Nora Reddington in 1945 but surely Phyllis was still legally married to him in 1958? Or have I missed some info along the way
Chris
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As a bit of a novice, can I ask a question - if Phyllis Oakley was GRMs first wife, how was she able to marry George Chowns in 1958. Was there a divorce from GRM. I know he 'married' Nora Reddington in 1945 but surely Phyllis was still legally married to him in 1958? Or have I missed some info along the way
Chris
This is a very pertinent question, and one of the reasons I think the 1949 trial records (if available) would be interesting.
At the moment we don't know what the basis of his conviction was.
It may be that the bigamy conviction arose because he was still lawfully married to a living wife when he went through a ceremony of marriage with Phyllis in 1934. In this case the marriage to Phyllis would be void. The marriage to Nora might also be void, or might be lawful, depending upon whether the mystery first wife was still living on 10 September 1945.
Phyllis on this scenario would not have needed a divorce from GRM (never having been lawfully married to him) prior to her 1958 marriage.
Alternatively there may just have been the two ceremonies of marriage, in which case Phyllis' 1934 marriage would be valid, and Nora's 1945 marriage would be void for bigamy.
Phyllis on this scenario would have needed a divorce from GRM, and if there was one it ought to be reflected in the marital status disclosed on her subsequent marriage. If that's what happened I'm a bit surprised not to see evidence of Nora dragging GRM down the aisle a second time, after his divorce, to make things legal. On the other hand, the fact that the criminal charge was brought in the 1940s (rather than earlier) may point to the 1945 Nora marriage being the bigamous one.
It is of course possible that one of Phyllis' living children knows whether there was a divorce.
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It's all very convoluted. Marriage law says if your husband (or wife) has "gone missing" and you've not heard from him (her) and maybe he (her) was believed to be dead then after 7 years (statute of limitations) you can legally marry again. This has always been the law. So far as I know.
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He hadn't gone missing from his first family though. He was at the marriage of his eldest son only 2 years before Phyllis remarried.
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It's all very convoluted. Marriage law says if your husband (or wife) has "gone missing" and you've not heard from him (her) and maybe he (her) was believed to be dead then after 7 years (statute of limitations) you can legally marry again. This has always been the law. So far as I know.
That (sort of), if the relevant facts can be proved, is a statutory defence to a charge of bigamy (nothing to do with a statute of limitations, though).
However it clearly wasn't a defence available to GRM in 1949, as he was convicted rather than acquitted.
It also would not have been available to Phyllis, as GRM attended their first son's marriage, in Sep qtr 1956, less than two years before her Jun qtr 1958 marriage (as alpinecottage says - sorry, cross-posted).
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It's all very convoluted. Marriage law says if your husband (or wife) has "gone missing" and you've not heard from him (her) and maybe he (her) was believed to be dead then after 7 years (statute of limitations) you can legally marry again. This has always been the law. So far as I know.
That (sort of), if the relevant facts can be proved, is a statutory defence to a charge of bigamy (nothing to do with a statute of limitations, though).
However it clearly wasn't a defence available to GRM in 1949, as he was convicted rather than acquitted.
It also would not have been available to Phyllis, as GRM attended their first son's marriage, in Sep qtr 1956, less than two years before her Jun qtr 1958 marriage (as alpinecottage says - sorry, cross-posted).
"(nothing to do with a statute of limitations, though)"
Why do you say so?
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"(nothing to do with a statute of limitations, though)"
Why do you say so?
I can bore you for hours on English law but don't think that's going to be helpful in this quest.
A statute of limitations prescribes an end date at which proceedings can be issued, after the relevant matters have taken place. It doesn't exist in English criminal law. If you've committed an offence, you can be prosecuted at any date thereafter. It does, however, exist in English civil law - see the Limitation Act 1980.
The statutory defence to bigamy doesn't tell the Crown that it can't prosecute once a certain time has elapsed after the offence - rather, it prescribes and limits the circumstances in which an offence will have been committed. Quite different things.
Back to the topic...
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But this is the topic ...
Obviously you are better informed than me ... what is the "statutory defence" to bigamy? Pray tell ...
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It can easily be googled. I'm off duty :)
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It can easily be googled. I'm off duty :)
OK. I'll google it since you can't be bothered to explain.
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It can easily be googled. I'm off duty :)
OK. I'll google it since you can't be bothered to explain.
I expect you just ripped it from Google anyway ...
Off duty lawyers ...
Huh ...
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Was looking at this thread earlier today and one thing occurred to me.
So, just going back to basics - I am wondering when the cert that M3D1C_Dan has (or it seems that his parents have) for the (possible) second marriage to Nora Reddington was actually issued ?
Officially (but not always in practice !) if a bigamous marriage has been detected, (and especially after a conviction) the GRO should be informed and then be unable to issue a further copy, since that marriage was null and void in the first place.
So am wondering if that cert was issued before or after the conviction ?
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I was wondering the same thing, but as Dan needed advice on how to purchase a marriage cert. earlier in the thread I just assumed that he has the original marriage cert.
Off topic, but will the GRO just transcribe the details from the cert for you if they cannot issue an official copy?
I was also curious about why GRM appears in the gaol records under his first married name. Would he not have been convicted under the second name as that was the one he was using when he committed the offence? Perhaps they had evidence that the second name was the alias. I don't know how hard the authorities would have tried to establish his real identity in the 1940s.
I can't believe how much it costs to get a copy of a decree absolute - £65 if you don't know the case number or the court :o
Debra :)
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"(nothing to do with a statute of limitations, though)"
Why do you say so?
I can bore you for hours on English law but don't think that's going to be helpful in this quest.
A statute of limitations prescribes an end date at which proceedings can be issued, after the relevant matters have taken place. It doesn't exist in English criminal law. If you've committed an offence, you can be prosecuted at any date thereafter. It does, however, exist in English civil law - see the Limitation Act 1980.
The statutory defence to bigamy doesn't tell the Crown that it can't prosecute once a certain time has elapsed after the offence - rather, it prescribes and limits the circumstances in which an offence will have been committed. Quite different things.
Back to the topic...
"... for this reason English law developed a statutory defence to a criminal charge of bigamy based on lapse of time (7 years of continual absence without knowledge that the person was living in that time)".
You posted that yourself on another thread here recently ...
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=641019.msg4880655#msg4880655
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Changing tack (horse pun not intentional) would it be possible to search for brother Frederick who served with him and was shot and killed in France?
But then what surname would he be under ???
Any history of the regiment that might give a clue or commemorate members that were killed?
Only other thing I can think of at the moment is to look for his brother and sister together as children (presuming born pre 1911) and see if there is another brother who could be Gordon. Needle in a haystack but hey.
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My thoughts - He used Markerson and Markinson across the timeline. Is it possible there is another spelling? Or can you search Mark**son to see if there was another spelling?
Tiki :)
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You can do a birth search on freebmd with the surname MARK*SON where the search engine will look for any letters inbetween the K and S. Markerson & Markinson are particularly rare names and Markinson tends to be localised to the Leeds area.
you can do a 1911 census sibling search with Ancestry, by entering a first name ie Fred* (because we don't know if Gordon is his real name) and leaving the surname at the top of the form blank and entering 2 siblings as Rose* and Gordon but that supposes they were all born before 1911. Ancestry will search for Fred, Fredrick, Frederick, Freddy etc
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You can search http://www.cwgc.org/ in various configurations - name not required:
For example - regiment Green Howards, additional information "Newark", this is the only hit:
http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/2659362/MIDWORTH,%20JOHN%20ARTHUR
(but many men do not have any additional info listed).
You can also use wildcards - plenty of interesting possibilities, no obvious ones.
On the Railway employment database on Ancestry there appears to be a "Geo Markuson" who might bear investigating.
It's possible he was raised under another name and only told about his father when he was a bit older - then took on that name with the spelling as he thought it should be.
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I spoke with Gordon's brother, Ernest Markerson and he says in addition to what we already know, that the reason Gordon and Phyllis are registered both at the same address at the time of their marriage, is due to Gordon living with (as a lodger), Phyllis' patents. He used to clean their brasses. He also states that Gordon got Phyllis pregnant hence why the first Gordon/Phyllis offspring was so close to the marriage date.
Ernest has also said he had quite an extensive record of the MARKERSON family tree of his cousins, dating back as far as 1854. He is going to let me have this information which may open some clues and hopefully missing links to Gordon's father George.
Ernest is known as 'John' by his family.
Ernest also said he had reservations about his 2 deceased siblings, Phyllis and Reginald as to wether they were his real siblings, so they're could well have been a marriage/family pre Phyllis OAKLEY.
Ernest wife mentioned something about Gordon's father, George, seeing somewhere his occupation being 'Horse Whisperer', and that he was probably from the USA. This may be just an assumption on her part and shouldn't be taken gospel.
I'll update more as and when.
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The plot thickens ???
When Ernest mentioned the Markerson family tree of his cousins, would they be GRMs brothers children? Would that brother be Frederick I wonder?
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Horse brasses one assumes :D
Just to clarify Ernest is Gordon's son isn't he not his brother?
Gordon being a lodger would seem to indicate he was a chap on his own but not necessarily.
The other two siblings mentioned were born after Ernest so they can't have been from a previous marriage/family.
Was assuming Frederick never married or had children as he was killed in the war but that could be a wrong assumption and he was old enough when he died to have been married.
Cousins with the same name would have to come from the fathers side. Maybe there was another brother we don't yet know about.
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Cousins with the same name would have to come from the fathers side. Maybe there was another brother we don't yet know about.
Not necessarily - could be descended from an illegitimate child of Gordon's sister.
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Ernest has also said he had quite an extensive record of the MARKERSON family tree of his cousins, dating back as far as 1854. He is going to let me have this information which may open some clues and hopefully missing links to Gordon's father George.
Fascinating development - hope he comes back to you soon :)
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Cousins with the same name would have to come from the fathers side. Maybe there was another brother we don't yet know about.
Not necessarily - could be descended from an illegitimate child of Gordon's sister.
Yes, but it is supposed to go back to 1854 so would still have to go through the father of Gorden's sister or it wouldn't be a MARKERSON line, but the line of the father of the illegitimate child of Gordon's sister :D
Even if he had the name of a sibling of GR that would be very helpful.
Bizzare the bit about thinking the second child was not a full sibling. I guess there could be a question mark about the fourth, but not the second born. ???
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As I understand it siblings of Gordon were Frederick and Rosemary.
Frederick who served with him and was killed in France.
Rosemary killed with parents in the blitz.
If there is an extensive Markerson tree then it must be the right name after all so why can't we find births for these people? I'm sure we've all tried every spelling combination known to man and then some!
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I must say I am itching to see that family tree!
The hint from the living relatives about a possible US link is interesting. Markussen/Markusson occur there a fair bit due to Scandinavian immigration, and might well be turned into Markerson. Still, I can't see any obvious candidates across the water either ???
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I'm just passing on info that I've been fed from Gordon's son Ernest. May be of some relevance. May be totally wrong. May just provide a link or vital piece of help.
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I'm just passing on info that I've been fed from Gordon's son Ernest. May be of some relevance. May be totally wrong. May just provide a link or vital piece of help.
Maybe you could kindly provide us with Ernest's feed ...
Just a thought ...
Paul
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Gordon & Nora are buried at Harehills Cemetery, Leeds.
Grave Section U7 (Unconsecrated) / Grave Number 843
MARKINSON, Gordon Roland / buried 1 April 1971 / Age 70
MARKINSON, Norah / buried 15 January 1975 / Age 67
Look a little further
Paul
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So ... let's get back to the topic ...
I spoke with Gordon's brother, Ernest Markerson and he says in addition to what we already know, that the reason Gordon and Phyllis are registered both at the same address at the time of their marriage, is due to Gordon living with (as a lodger), Phyllis' patents. He used to clean their brasses. He also states that Gordon got Phyllis pregnant hence why the first Gordon/Phyllis offspring was so close to the marriage date.
Ernest has also said he had quite an extensive record of the MARKERSON family tree of his cousins, dating back as far as 1854. He is going to let me have this information which may open some clues and hopefully missing links to Gordon's father George.
Ernest is known as 'John' by his family.
Ernest also said he had reservations about his 2 deceased siblings, Phyllis and Reginald as to wether they were his real siblings, so they're could well have been a marriage/family pre Phyllis OAKLEY.
Ernest wife mentioned something about Gordon's father, George, seeing somewhere his occupation being 'Horse Whisperer', and that he was probably from the USA. This may be just an assumption on her part and shouldn't be taken gospel.
I'll update more as and when.
Any news Dan?
Paul
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Dawn
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Thank you for this Dawn (and other management involved), it is appreciated.
Now that I am updated to the whereabouts of what happened here...
back on topic ;D
I spoke at length with Ernest, his daughter and his Granddaughter over the post week and sent him some photos at various ages of Gordon (the one believed to be his father). In exchange, he sent me a few pictures of himself, but whilst I can't see the same striking resemblance I hold between Gordon, my father, myself and my own son, I'm not ruling it out yet. Having different mothers could account for s lot in this instance, and whilst there are some visual similarities (same ears, mouth and eyes), the verdict is still out. What is good though, is that both my father and Ernest are keen to have a DNA test to prove any blood line.
Are we allowed to post photos of living people on here? I can upload some pictures of Gordon, my family (dad and myself), as well as Ernest. You could have a look yourself and see what you make of the similarities?
I am currently awaiting confirmation as to the possibility of Ernest or anyone else in his family either recognising my photos of Gordon, or then having wedding photos of Gordon and Phyllis.
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Hi Dan
Information about and photos of living people are not allowed on Rootschat.
Have a quick look here
http://www.rootschat.com/help/posting_guide.php
Dawn
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Gordon & Nora are buried at Harehills Cemetery, Leeds.
Grave Section U7 (Unconsecrated) / Grave Number 843
MARKINSON, Gordon Roland / buried 1 April 1971 / Age 70
MARKINSON, Norah / buried 15 January 1975 / Age 67
I think ljuk could have found your missing link there !!
That would be a coincidence too much for me.
M3D1C_Dan. Any chance on on following this up with a phone call to the cemetery, also what the headstone says in comparison.
What is good though, is that both my father and Ernest are keen to have a DNA test to prove any blood line.
What a great idea. Well done to them both. ;)
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Brilliant ;D
The death index entry is for Gordon Richard.
Think I would be getting the death certificate as evidence Dan. Presume that will be the same as the index entry and if the burial records are different then I think that clinches it.
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Brilliant ;D
The death index entry is for Gordon Richard.
Think I would be getting the death certificate as evidence Dan. Presume that will be the same as the index entry and if the burial records are different then I think that clinches it.
Got it. It is Gordon Richard Markinson, as on the index. Not sure where the other index states it was Gordon Roland Markinson though. ??? ???
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Not sure where the other index states it was Gordon Roland Markinson though. ??? ???
The burial records at Harehills Cemetery for Gordon and Nora as quoted above by ljuk
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Now I'm ??? again because if anyone in the family had visited the grave wouldn't they have noticed a different name?
Gordon died first so presumably Norah would have provided the memorial details.
An intentional clue left behind perhaps!
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The cemetery record will possibly/probably be what appears in the cemetery register recording who's buried in what grave etc, not what is on the gravestone. There may not even be a headstone, though it would be good to know what, if anything, it says.
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Harehills Cemetery, Leeds
Grave Section U7 (Unconsecrated) / Grave Number 843
MARKINSON, Gordon Roland / buried 1 April 1971 / Age 70
MARKINSON, Norah / buried 15 January 1975 / Age 67
This came from the transcribed burial registers which are on the Yorkshire Indexers subscription database. Those transcriptions (for Harehills) are complete between 08 Nov 1908 & 29 May 1987.
Records after 29 May 1987 are computerised and held by Leeds City Council.
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By the way neither of these two left a will,a friend of mine went to Holborn wills office today and I asked him to check.
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So Dan, you say Gordon's death certificate only shows St James' Hospital as his final address ... maybe it would be worth getting Norah's death certificate as well to find her final address? And the name (if related) of the informant would also be useful.
Name: MARKINSON, Norah
Registration district: Leeds
Year of registration: 1975
Quarter of registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
Date of Birth: 22 April 1907
Volume no: 5
Page no: 0043
Hopefully soon I'll get to Leeds and start looking at those electoral registers for you ... so far I only have Duxbury Street as an address for them in 1945?
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So Gordon & Norah had 3 sons born between 1947 & 1951 who I can't name here for obvious reasons but their birth registrations can be found. Have you been able to talk to them or their families? Presumably one of them is your father (grandfather?).
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So Dan, you say Gordon's death certificate only shows St James' Hospital as his final address ...
I'm not sure about that ...
In one post (on YI ... 28-09-2013) you say "There's nothing on Gordon's death certificate to state where he was living at the time of his death, just the hospital he died in: St James Hospital, Leeds, West Yorkshire."
And in another (on Genes Reunited in 2012) you say "Death Certs: Gordon Richard Markinson, Retired Railway Platelayer, 7 Barrowby Crescent, Leeds. Reg date: 26th March 1971 Leeds"
What is actually entered on the death certificate?
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Is there any significance to the fact that Gordon and Norah were buried in unconsecrated ground?
Chris
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Norah was a practising Roman Catholic (or at least she was when she married Gordon at St. Anne's RC Cathedral in 1945). The consecrated ground was reserved for C of E burials.
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Norah was a practising Roman Catholic (or at least she was when she married Gordon at St. Anne's RC Cathedral in 1945). The consecrated ground was reserved for C of E burials.
Thanks for the explanation
Chris
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I was going to read all 18 pages, but am on my way out. I have a very similar situation whereby my gt grandfather committed bigamy during WW2 and was imprisoned after the war. Curiously, lots of references to bigamous marriages in the local papers, but his story isn't there. My gran said it appeared in the Daily Star (front page apparently!), but without knowing the year, it's costly to find out for sure (assuming it's the correct paper!).
Furthermore, the trial occurred in the Old Bailey, with members of the family travelling down, and he was imprisoned somewhere in London. There doesn't appear to be any reference to the second marriage in the GRO lists, and it only came to light when my gt gran stopped receiving payments from the army, so presumably there may be a mention in his army records.
It's a bit of a tricky situation to find the relevant info as my gran was only a child at the time, and those of the next generation have sadly all passed on
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My gran said it appeared in the Daily Star (front page apparently!), but without knowing the year, it's costly to find out for sure (assuming it's the correct paper!).
Not this paper as it was first published on 2 November 1978
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Maybe Gran meant Evening Star?
"Star, News and Standard!"
Even I can remember London news vendors shouting that! ;D
Ray
There's a word you don't hear very often nowadays, "vendor".
"Suitor"?
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Good point guys lmao. We're in South Wales, so unlikely to be a London only publication as apparently people all over the small valley town had copies. But the OP may find (like me) that whilst there are loads of mentions in local papers about bigamy during the war, but my grandfather's wasn't there? Not sure whether some were bigger news than others for some reason
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Well there was a lot of bulwarks going down between 1939 and 1945 so it's not surprising that a bigamy crime wouldn't be reported ... unless, as you say, it was big news.
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When GRM was convicted of bigamy, would anything be noted on his marriage certificate to the second 'wife'
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It wouldn't have been discovered till after he married his second wife would it? He hadn't done anything wrong up to then.
Or do you mean noted on the records after it was discovered? Interesting question.
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Yes I meant after it was discovered that he was already married
Chris
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I did notice a number of online posts where researchers indicated that a notation was made on the marriage entry if either party was convicted of bigamy. Although the marriage will still appear in the indexes, if you try to order a copy of the marriage cert the Registrar General will refuse the request as it is not a legal document. I don't know if they would be willing to just supply a transcription of the information instead.
I did wonder if Dan has the original marriage certificate from 1945.
Debra :)
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I have a copy of a bigamist marriage cert(as it turned out later) from 1959.
I ordered it in 2004 and they sent it with no problems,there's no notation on there to say it was any different than a usual marriage cert.
He was found out and imprisoned in the mid 1960's.
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Another myth busted! ;D
Debra :)
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Interesting thread anyway but the OP doesn't seem to be that interested ...
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Some of us have real lives and other things that need to be done before we spend time here.
I'm sure Dan will come back and join in when he is able to.
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Some of us have real lives and other things that need to be done before we spend time here.
I'm sure Dan will come back and join in when he is able to.
I look forward to that day when I get done and I get a real life ...
Grazia ...
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Have been following this thread with interest. Still not totally clear to exactly what exact "facts" and info to chase (up on). It's a plot with many twists it seems. Nonetheless there are many of rchatterers who have been very dogged chasing info and thinking of possible avenues to hunt down.
Just wanted to give a pat on the back.
Cocksie
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Some of us have real lives and other things that need to be done before we spend time here.
I'm sure Dan will come back and join in when he is able to.
Nothing from Dan yet then ... see he was last active on the 10th of October in the afternoon ... been a while ...
It's a give and take thing you know ... not like a drive-in MacDonalds ...
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That is not so long ago ljuk, he could just be on his holiday, working abroad of even in hospital. Do rather hope that he is on his annual holiday somewhere nice and sunny 8)
Sarah :)
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Some of us have real lives and other things that need to be done before we spend time here.
I'm sure Dan will come back and join in when he is able to.
Nothing from Dan yet then ... see he was last active on the 10th of October in the afternoon ... been a while ...
It's a give and take thing you know ... not like a drive-in MacDonalds ...
I'm still here, just nothing that constructive to add from what little time I have had of late to dedicate to this. Comments of me being "not interested" I find slightly amusing. Allow me to ellaborate:
I work for the ambulance service working all hours god sends on a 12 hour-a-day rota, this week I've been working all weekend on nights. When I'm not working I'm also trying to get through a GCSE Human Health and Physiology course at college so I can progress at work to Paramedic. SOmewhere in between work and college, I run my own motorcycle website, review products and also try and juggle my wife and 2 young sons as well. It sounds clichéd, but there honestly aren't enough hours in the day for me to get done everything I hope to do, and whilst tracing my grandfather's past is another past-time, it isn't top list of my priorities in amongst everything else.
I can appreciate that for those who either don't work, or don't have as many things on the go as I do, awaiting a response from myself on this thread can be frustrating, and for that I apologise – I confess I can be the world's worst person for being impatient.
As far as current info goes, I sent Ernest Markerson some photos my father has of Gordon, and Ernest says, and I quote:
"that's him without a shadow of a doubt, the man who came to my wedding back in '56"
My father and Ernest are now looking into getting a DNA test done to confirm this 100%.
As far as tracing proof or obtaining evidence of Gordon's birth, or his father (George) whereabouts or birthdate etc, I'm not sure where to go from here or what I need to do.
I will try and make a conscious effort to keep you posted sooner on this thread, if for nothing other than respect for those who have put some much of their own time and effort/experience into helping me so far.
Once again, I can't begin to thank you all so much for the help you have so kindly given up and I hope you will continue to help.
;)
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Hi Dan
Glad you're ok.
As I surmised in reply #186, you seem to have a full and hectic life away from here.
Just reply as and when you can.
Dawn
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Hi there,
I stumbled on this fascinating thread while chasing my own bigamy puzzle.
A search on FindMyPast's newspapers brought up this:
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To add:
It is from Yorkshire Evening Post Wednesday 20 November 1946.
Tony.
(modified for clarity ;D)
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Well done, Tony! Fascinating thread!
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Awesome work there mate, thank you.
That’s 100% my grandad - the names, places and dates all add up.
Thank you.
I did track his estranged family down and after making contact with his granddaughter, confirmed the suspected info.
I apologise for not keeping you all updated on this but to be honest it kind of got parked as it seems I’ve opened a Pandora’s box with what is obviously another family branch I will now have to explore.
I’d actually forgotten all about this tbh so thank you for opening this back up 😂
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Hi Dan,
Have you found his birth records?
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No PatLac not yet. I don't think I will TBH given that we always were led to assume his middle name was Richard and not ROLAND as is evident here.
I've just spoken to my Dad who confirmed that the date of their wedding s as in the clipping is correct as well.
I've not reached back out to the MARKERSON family who I initially spoke to and wouldn't be surprised if his son from his estranged family down south is still living as when I spoke to him way back (I can't even recall when it was now), he was well into his 80s if my memory serves me correctly.
We'll find out as I have a lot more time on my hands now.
If anyone has any suggestions of where I take this, I'm all ears.
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Thanks! I understand you have his DOB from his death records as 9 Dec 1900, is that correct?
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I’ve just been chatting to my dad and he’s found this.
It would seem that from what he was aware of previously, that DOB is wrong but would tie in well with someone doing a rubbish job of creating a new identity 🤣
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Name: Mother's Maiden Surname:
MARKERSON, HARRIS RACHELL
GRO Reference: 1905 M Quarter in ST. GEORGE-IN-THE-EAST Volume 01C Page 362
I can't find Harris Markerson's marriage or death on FreeBMD .
This is probably him
SALE OF AYLESBURY DAIRY SHOW The second annual dairy show and sale was held in Aylesbury Cattle Market ..
... fixture, and defeated them by 6 goals to 1. Team: VV. Archer; R. Dunkin, F. Peisley; F. Ewers, b. H. Dunkin, P. Woodford; G. Markerson, L. A. Toihes, R. L. Munday. F. B. Woodford. R. E. Frost. Referee; A. V. Small (Hartwell/. Harvest Thanksgiving.—The har ...
Published: Friday 02 October 1936
Newspaper: Bucks Herald
County: Buckinghamshire, England
AYLESBURY DISTRICT LEAGUE
... This proved to be the only goal of the match. Cuddington: E. E. Cox; F. Peisley, J. Ewers; R. Dunkin, S. H. Dunkin, G. R. Markerson; T. Godfrey, L. A. Tomes, R. L. Munday, F. B. Woodford, R. Tu. Frost. QUAINTON 4, RIVET WORKS 2. Quainton were again at ...
Published: Friday 20 September 1935
Newspaper: Bucks Herald
County: Buckinghamshire, England
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Edit: Reply moved to AnthonyMark's own post & Question about Bigamy, had typed here in error after following his link to it).
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=890491.msg7645508#msg7645508
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I've noticed that on his first marriage certificate his father George Markerson was deceased. That doesn't add up with the oral history of your family that his father died during the Blitz.
I don't have access to these newspapers, but maybe you could check them out, maybe they have more information.
On Wednesday morning the ambulance fetched Mr. Markerson, of Oxford House, Cuddington, from the Oxford Road, near Longwick, where he had been knocked off his pedal cycle by a motor ...
Published: Friday 06 March 1936
Newspaper: Bucks Herald
County: Buckinghamshire, England
... BIGAMY ALLEGED Mr Markerson, Engineer, Enfield Avenue, Leeds, who pleaded not guilty and reserved his defence, was committed for trial at the Assizes in Leeds today om a charge of bigamy. Mr.
N. C. Haslegrave, prosecuting, said Markerson was married at Aylesbury ...
Published: Friday 09 August 1946
Newspaper: Yorkshire Evening Post
County: Yorkshire, England
George Markerson?
Friday—George Bennett, 12, of Brandon, was summoned for destroying the glass in two lamps, valued at 9a. 6d., the parish. George Markerson, a lad about the same age stated is then come towards him. Witness said to defendant,“ You will get in the \ ...
Published: Saturday 26 February 1876
Newspaper: Lowestoft Journal
County: Suffolk, England
... of Brandon, was summoned for destroying the glass in two lamps, valued at 9s. Sd., the property of Brandon parish.— George Markerson, a lad about the same age as defendant, stated that on the 30th ult. he was in the street at Brandon, when he happened ...
Published: Tuesday 22 February 1876
Newspaper: Bury and Norwich Post
County: Suffolk, England
His military records:
Name: G R Markerson . Service number: D/34689 . Date of birth: 7 December 1901
Reference: WO 421/58862
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C17731838
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Awesome work there mate, thank you.
That’s 100% my grandad - the names, places and dates all add up.
Thank you.
You are welcome Dan, and welcome back to Rootschat!
It looks like your old thread has regrown its legs and is running again. PatLac has pulled up some interesting new leads to follow.
Did anything come of the idea that your Father and Ernest do DNA tests? Even if contact has been lost with the other family it might certainly be worth considering your Father testing. Tests are cheaper in real terms and the data bases bigger than 12 years ago.
Best wishes, Tony.
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I’m trying to reach back out to that side of the family to see where they are at or whether Ernest is still alive. Even if he isn’t, I would imagine his children may still be a viable line for testing? I’ll be honest, I don’t know a great deal about DNA testing for genealogy purposes or even well I would contact to get these done - reputable providers etc.
It was late yesterday when I picked this back up and being a weekend, I didn’t really want to probe too far into it as I didn’t think the response euros be that appreciated given people’s family time etc.
What was interesting though was given the info from Gordon’s first marriage in Aylesbury, I did a random Facebook search for MARKERSONS and found a couple from that area, coincidentally friends with each other so potentially directly related. One of the individuals, I’m sure is the mother of the lady I contacted (or who contacted me) after seeing this post and who has been looking for her grandfather’s lineage - her grandfather turned out to be ERNEST.
I don’t recall ERNEST’S daughters Christian name but her married name at the time was KISS.
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So further to this - and this is where social media and todays technology makes this so fast and easy - I’ve just gone through a few of the MARKERSON individuals on Facebook and their publicly available friends, and found quite a few who are all connected by name (their in each other’s friends lists).
The last I had direct contact with is definitely related to the MARKERSONS you can find from AYLESBURY.
*Apologies if anyone finds this slightly intrusive, but if you don’t lock down your friends list and make certain areas of your social media accounts private, this is how easy people can find each other.
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I’m trying to reach back out to that side of the family to see where they are at or whether Ernest is still alive. Even if he isn’t, I would imagine his children may still be a viable line for testing? I’ll be honest, I don’t know a great deal about DNA testing for genealogy purposes or even well I would contact to get these done - reputable providers etc.
From my experience I would say that Ancestry would be the best bet for DNA. They have the largest database and have periodic discounts. The "Mother's Day" one of £59 + shipping has just finished but I guess the "Father's Day" one will be along soon.
This thread: https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=885241.0
is an interesting read or just browsing the DNA board on here would answer lots of your questions.
Tony.
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I'm not sure if the surname is really Markerson but if it is, the place (Clerkenwell) and his DOB are interesting. Could he be Gordon's brother? No sign of him on FreeBMD.
SERIOUS ASSAULT
... would not keep. . did it because my wife and child were starving were the words alleged have been used arrest by Martin Markerson, twenty five, an electrician, St. John-street,Clerkenwell, who was committed for trial North London charged with assaulting ...
Published: Thursday 26 May 1921
Newspaper: Illustrated Police News
County: London, England
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Sad news... Ernest has passed away in 2022
https://ernestmarkerson.muchloved.com/
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Sad news... Ernest has passed away in 2022
https://ernestmarkerson.muchloved.com/
Yeah, I've just seen that as I've signed up to the free trial on Ancestry to see how much info that has, and I have to say that it looks like it's fairly good so far. I might end up signing up to it fully.
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I'm not sure if the surname is really Markerson but if it is, the place (Clerkenwell) and his DOB are interesting. Could he be Gordon's brother? No sign of him on FreeBMD.
SERIOUS ASSAULT
... would not keep. . did it because my wife and child were starving were the words alleged have been used arrest by Martin Markerson, twenty five, an electrician, St. John-street,Clerkenwell, who was committed for trial North London charged with assaulting ...
Published: Thursday 26 May 1921
Newspaper: Illustrated Police News
County: London, England
I think this is a completely different person TBH
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I'm not sure if the surname is really Markerson but if it is, the place (Clerkenwell) and his DOB are interesting. Could he be Gordon's brother? No sign of him on FreeBMD.
SERIOUS ASSAULT
... would not keep. . did it because my wife and child were starving were the words alleged have been used arrest by Martin Markerson, twenty five, an electrician, St. John-street,Clerkenwell, who was committed for trial North London charged with assaulting ...
Published: Thursday 26 May 1921
Newspaper: Illustrated Police News
County: London, England
I think this is a completely different person TBH
I didn't mean to say he was Gordon, but a possible brother... Markerson was not a common name.
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I'm not sure if the surname is really Markerson but if it is, the place (Clerkenwell) and his DOB are interesting. Could he be Gordon's brother? No sign of him on FreeBMD.
SERIOUS ASSAULT
... would not keep. . did it because my wife and child were starving were the words alleged have been used arrest by Martin Markerson, twenty five, an electrician, St. John-street,Clerkenwell, who was committed for trial North London charged with assaulting ...
Published: Thursday 26 May 1921
Newspaper: Illustrated Police News
County: London, England
I think this is a completely different person TBH
I didn't mean to say he was Gordon, but a possible brother... Markerson was not a common name.
There is a 26 year old Martin Markuson, born Furgus Falls USA, an out of work maintenance electrician with wife Emily and a daughter at 68 St. John Street on the 1921 census.
Freebmd has:
Marriages Sep 1920 W.Ham 4A 208
Martin M Markuson + Emily Veal
Ancestry's Essex England C of E marriages gives the date of marriage as 2 Aug 1920, his middle name as Marcus and his father as Harry Markuson.
Tony.
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There is quite a well documented tree on ancestry for this family.
Father Markus Hans Markuson1861–1944
Birth 19 JAN 1861 Copenhagen, Kobenhavn, Denmark
02 JAN 1944 • Rochester, Olmsted, Minnesota, USA
Mother Pennella Nelson 1861–1901
Birth 09 JAN 1861 • Norway
Death 07 MAR 1901 • Henning, Otter Tail County, Minnesota, USA >:(
Martin Markuson and wife Emily nee Veal emigrated back to the US and both died there in New York.
No Gordon recorded as a brother only an Alfred and a Henry.
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... BIGAMY ALLEGED Mr Markerson, Engineer, Enfield Avenue, Leeds, who pleaded not guilty and reserved his defence, was committed for trial at the Assizes in Leeds today om a charge of bigamy. Mr.
N. C. Haslegrave, prosecuting, said Markerson was married at Aylesbury ...
Published: Friday 09 August 1946
Newspaper: Yorkshire Evening Post
County: Yorkshire, England
Just in case you haven't been able to access the newspapers the rest of the above article says
... in 1934. There were four children of the legal marriage.
While serving in the Army he was stationed at Leeds in 1944
and there met Norah Reddington, a single woman then
living ain Woodhouse Lane. They went through a form of marriage
at St Anne's Cathedral in Sept 1945. Accused then used the name of Markinson
Norah Reddington, in evidence, said "we have been very happy together.
It is my intention to stick by him until this matter is over"
and this was published later:
Yorkshire Evening Post 20 Nov 1946, page 8 col 3
BOUND OVER FOR BIGAMY
Gordon Roland Markerson (44), motor engineer, Enfield Avenue,
was bound over for 12 months at Leeds Assizes today, on a charge
of bigamy with Norah Reddington. The bigamous marriage took
place at St Anne's Cathedral, Leeds, on Sept 10 1945
Boo
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There is quite a well documented tree on ancestry for this family.
Father Markus Hans Markuson1861–1944
Birth 19 JAN 1861 Copenhagen, Kobenhavn, Denmark
02 JAN 1944 • Rochester, Olmsted, Minnesota, USA
Mother Pennella Nelson 1861–1901
Birth 09 JAN 1861 • Norway
Death 07 MAR 1901 • Henning, Otter Tail County, Minnesota, USA >:(
Martin Markuson and wife Emily nee Veal emigrated back to the US and both died there in New York.
No Gordon recorded as a brother only an Alfred and a Henry.
I think this is a completely different lineage to mine but thank you for the insight.
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... BIGAMY ALLEGED Mr Markerson, Engineer, Enfield Avenue, Leeds, who pleaded not guilty and reserved his defence, was committed for trial at the Assizes in Leeds today om a charge of bigamy. Mr.
N. C. Haslegrave, prosecuting, said Markerson was married at Aylesbury ...
Published: Friday 09 August 1946
Newspaper: Yorkshire Evening Post
County: Yorkshire, England
Just in case you haven't been able to access the newspapers the rest of the above article says
... in 1934. There were four children of the legal marriage.
While serving in the Army he was stationed at Leeds in 1944
and there met Norah Reddington, a single woman then
living ain Woodhouse Lane. They went through a form of marriage
at St Anne's Cathedral in Sept 1945. Accused then used the name of Markinson
Norah Reddington, in evidence, said "we have been very happy together.
It is my intention to stick by him until this matter is over"
and this was published later:
Yorkshire Evening Post 20 Nov 1946, page 8 col 3
BOUND OVER FOR BIGAMY
Gordon Roland Markerson (44), motor engineer, Enfield Avenue,
was bound over for 12 months at Leeds Assizes today, on a charge
of bigamy with Norah Reddington. The bigamous marriage took
place at St Anne's Cathedral, Leeds, on Sept 10 1945
Boo
I don’t know how accurate the information compiled from Ancestry.com is, I guess, as much as the information input from associated families, but looking into the hints from the MARKERSON side from GORDON (my grandfather) to his first wife PHYLLIS in 1934, there were 4 connected children:
ERNEST W O (1934 - 2022),
REGINALD J (1945 a 2010),
CHRISTINA M (CHANDLER) (1933 - 2016),
PHYLLIS J (1937 - 1999)
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Hi Dan,
Just seen this shared by Glen in Tinsel Kni:
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=890809.msg7647252#msg7647252
£29 is the best price I've seen.
Tony.
-
How do they work in terms of connecting to others?
Do I just get mine done and link it and then hope others match up in time etc?
Approaching prior I don’t know but suspects are part of my lineage and asking them “are btw, would you mind getting a DNA test with me please?” seems intrusive and weird.
-
... BIGAMY ALLEGED Mr Markerson, Engineer, Enfield Avenue, Leeds, who pleaded not guilty and reserved his defence, was committed for trial at the Assizes in Leeds today om a charge of bigamy. Mr.
N. C. Haslegrave, prosecuting, said Markerson was married at Aylesbury ...
Published: Friday 09 August 1946
Newspaper: Yorkshire Evening Post
County: Yorkshire, England
Just in case you haven't been able to access the newspapers the rest of the above article says
... in 1934. There were four children of the legal marriage.
While serving in the Army he was stationed at Leeds in 1944
and there met Norah Reddington, a single woman then
living ain Woodhouse Lane. They went through a form of marriage
at St Anne's Cathedral in Sept 1945. Accused then used the name of Markinson
Norah Reddington, in evidence, said "we have been very happy together.
It is my intention to stick by him until this matter is over"
and this was published later:
Yorkshire Evening Post 20 Nov 1946, page 8 col 3
BOUND OVER FOR BIGAMY
Gordon Roland Markerson (44), motor engineer, Enfield Avenue,
was bound over for 12 months at Leeds Assizes today, on a charge
of bigamy with Norah Reddington. The bigamous marriage took
place at St Anne's Cathedral, Leeds, on Sept 10 1945
Boo
I don’t know how accurate the information compiled from Ancestry.com is, I guess, as much as the information input from associated families, but looking into the hints from the MARKERSON side from GORDON (my grandfather) to his first wife PHYLLIS in 1934, there were 4 connected children:
ERNEST W O (1934 - 2022),
REGINALD J (1945 a 2010),
CHRISTINA M (CHANDLER) (1933 - 2016),
PHYLLIS J (1937 - 1999)
Ancestry hints are just that, they'd need to be checked out before taking them as definite.
Checking on https://www.freebmd.org.uk for these births will show the mother's maiden name Search for births Mark*son mothers maiden name Oakley between 1933 and 1945 brings up 4 results, all registered Aylesbury. Ernest, Reginald and Phyllis check out, plus an Evelyn born in 1940.
The Christina M Chandler born 1933 birth comes up as registered in Battersea mmn Dunne - seems very odd as a 'hint' - which proves that these hints need to be checked :-)
Boo
-
Thanks Boo.
Christina was actually the wife of one of the brothers, Ernest. I’d got that wrong as the hints generated double entries in at some stages, see right hand side of this image.
The lineage to the left is obviously what I know from my own side.
-
Maybe I need to look deeper into how to correctly use these sites to ratify this information.
I can see how easily you can end up going in a completely different direction down the wrong tree.
-
How do they work in terms of connecting to others?
Do I just get mine done and link it and then hope others match up in time etc?
Approaching prior I don’t know but suspects are part of my lineage and asking them “are btw, would you mind getting a DNA test with me please?” seems intrusive and weird.
Hi again, sorry for delay in getting back,
I'll try and set down how I think DNA could help with this even without tracking down strangers and asking them to test (at least to begin with! ;D). I'm very much still in the beginners club with DNA but I have had some success with a couple of puzzles.
The most useful person to test for this would be your Dad if he is willing. If funds allow getting one for yourself too would be useful. The test kits arrive by post and after registering with Ancestry you send off the saliva sample. About six weeks later the results are available to view.
The most useful to you will be the match list. This shows everyone you share DNA with from closest to furthest. The higher the cM number the closer the relationship. The fun part is working out how you connect.
Say for example you are working with your Dad's match list. Ancestry will have assigned each match as 'parent 1' or 'parent 2' (there will also be some that are 'unassigned' - worry about those later!). This has split the matches into maternal and paternal sides but at first you won't know which is which.
Imagine then that the closest match to your dad is "Ethel" and she is assigned to 'parent 1'. Luck is on your side and you know that "Ethel" is the grandaughter of Nora Reddington's sister. Now 'parent 1' can be marked as maternal and Ancestry's system will automatically mark 'parent 2' as paternal. Anyone in this paternal group will be from Gordon's family.
Imagine now that the closest match in the paternal group is "John". You can then look to see who are the closest shared matches with him and they are "Brenda", "Tom" and "Mike". I'd start to look at any trees that these four may have - what I'm looking to work out is how they relate to each other and then work back to a common ancestor that your Dad (and thus Gordon) share with them. It will likely be necessary to build your own version of the tree that connects them.
Along the way any Fred, Rosemary, platelayers for the LNER, horse trainers/breeders, anyone born in Newark or near Arsenal football club would be getting a very hard look ;D. It will be quite a hard slog and will need some luck too but the circle should tighten and tighten until the origins of Gordon are revealed.
I keep going through your thread and what keeps coming up is that nothing can be found about Gordon before he goes to lodge with the Oakleys in about 1934. No birth record, no census entries, nothing. So unless he stepped off an alien spaceship it seems that he probably started out with a different name. Yours is only half the puzzle - somewhere out there is someone with a Gordon shaped hole in their family tree, and if they've already DNA tested.......
I hope that sort of makes sense. Others here on Rootschat have lots more knowledge than me and will help as you go along.
Best wishes, Tony.
Added: I don't know how I've ended up with the big space at the end! ???
Added: I should mention that to get full access to your match list and make best use of shared matches you will need a paid Ancestry membership and the add on "pro tools" is useful.
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Exactly what I was about to ask...
I've just been looking at the DNA testing kits that are on offer today at £29. I'm not sure how a £9.99 shipping fee is justified but hey-ho. I'll speak to my dad today and see if he fancies doing one with me - it certainly sounds like it could yield some interesting results.
I've actually got more info from my paternal grandmother's side over in Ireland, NORAH/NORA REDDINGTON. I've found a fair amount of documentation relating to the REDDINGTON side of the family, but as my dad said yesterday, "they didn't have TVs in those days" and according to my dad, NORAH was one of 11 children. The biggest issue I'm finding is being able to decipher the handwriting on the BDMs from the Irish sources. The REDDINGTON family lineage looks huge.
I've been using https://www.freebmd.org.uk/ as well as https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/ in a bid to try and trace the REDDINGTON line.
I did randomly message one of the MARKERSON grandchildren on Facebook, and whilst the initial response was him confirming he was the cousin of the granddaughter I made contact with a few years back, so is definitely of the lineage connected to GORDON's brother ERNEST, he hasn't responded since. I may take a punt and message one of the other connected MARKERSONs from their connected 'Friends' list as they are all obviously part of the same family.
I did start off on the Ancestry free trial membership but ended up signing up to the Essentials at £10.99 a month. I'm finding though that some of the resources it finds and hints require more expensive subscriptions so am toying with upping that the £13.99 Premium membership for now to see what more that yields.
I'll keep this updated in due course but once again, thank you to all who are helping me research, it's a massive if somewhat interesting journey.
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Memorial on Find A Grave has a photo now.
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/226764598/gordon_roland-markinson
Headstone reads Gordon Richard and memorial reads Gordon Roland.
Regarding Nora(h) Reddington:
There are 2 birth records, different mother's names?
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/birth_returns/births_1907/01683/1668965.pdf
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/birth_returns/births_1907/01694/1672308.pdf
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Ernest wife mentioned something about Gordon's father, George, seeing somewhere his occupation being 'Horse Whisperer', and that he was probably from the USA. This may be just an assumption on her part and shouldn't be taken gospel.
I'll update more as and when.
Just wondering.. if this information has some truth in it, maybe it was Newark, US instead of Newark UK?
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Not sure but it’s a possibility.
You are correct that his name was Gordon Roland Markerson and his actual DOB was 9th dec 1901
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Have you ordered his military files (says DOB 7 December 1901) and have you checked this military entry on Ancestry?
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I think I've got him!!!!!
Looking at his attestation on Ancestry pointed to by PatLac he gives the 9th December 1901 date of birth that matches his 1939 entry. His place of birth is Newark, Peterborough, Northamptonshire. I didn't know that there was a Newark near Peterborough!
I started to work my way through the boys on the 1911 with Newark, Northamptonshire as their place of birth. Any that could be accounted for by a death or appearance on the 1939 register I set aside and moved on to the next.
Richard Gilbert Pitchers is the son of a former horsekeeper George Pitchers, has a brother Fred and a sister Rose. He married a woman whose maiden name was Markson. I can't find any record of him after this 1926 marriage.
He appears as Gilbert Pitchers in Woolpack Lane Whittlesey 1911 with widowed father George, at this time a general labourer, and siblings Leah, Priscilla, Lilian, Fred and May.
From freebmd:
Births Mar 1902 Peterboro 3B 218
Pitchers, Richard Gilbert
Births Dec 1907 Peterboro 3B 188
Pitchers, Bertie Fred
Births Sep 1904 Peterboro 3B 213
Pitchers, Rose Priscilla
Jumping back to the 1901 father George, born Banham Norfolk, is working as a "Horsekeeper on Farm" at Newark, Peterborough Without, Northamptonshire.
Gilbert Pitchers in 1921 is at Landi Kotal Camp, Khyber Pass, North West Frontier Province. He is a Private in the Northamptonshire Regiment.
Back at Whittlesey in 1921 father George is with the children that have not yet left home. There is also a widowed Housekeeper, Lucy Mabel Bellamy and her young son Harold Sidney Bellamy.
From freebmd:
Marriages Sep 1926 Whittlesey 3B 1362
Gilbert R Pitchers + Lucy M Bellamy
Births Mar 1915 Whittlesey 3B 913
Bellamy, Harrold Sydney (mmn Markson)
Marriages Jun 1914 Whittlesey 3B 1305
Herbert S Bellamy + Lucy M Markson
Herbert Bellamy was killed in World War one.
I haven't been able to find anything else on Richard Gilbert/Gilbert Richard after that 1926 marriage to his father's housekeeper.
Lucy by 1939 I think is with a George H Kennelly at Redbrick Farm, Newark, Peterborough. They are shown as being married but I've not yet found the marriage. She seems to have 'lost' a few years from her age given in 1921 but there is a Kennelly daughter with them and this girl's 1938 entry on freebmd has the mother's maiden name given as Markson.
Lucy is a bit of a mystery too. The green ink on the 39 indicates that she later used the forenames Hannah Lucy. There is a 1971 death in Peterborough district of Hannah Lucy Kennelly in 1971 with date of birth 13 Aug 1894.
Several trees on Ancestry have her starting life as Hannah Lucy Hazell in Reddish Lancashire in 1894 but I can't work out how, if that's her, she came to have the surname Markson.
If I'm right that your Gordon Roland Markerson/Markinson is actually Gilbert Richard Pitchers then the 1934 marriage to Phyllis was likely bigamous too! He seems to have kept his initials and created a surname based on the maiden name of his wife!
My curiosity got the better of me and I sent for Richard Gilbert Pitcher's birth certificate. I had to use the reference from freebmd as I couldn't seem to find the same one on the GRO index.
The PDF arrived today and guess what? His date of birth is Ninth December 1901. BINGO!!!
I'll try and snip part of the cert. What does everyone think? Is it case solved or have I lost the plot?
Best wishes, Tony.
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Wow, Tony, you may have lost the plot but this is THE plot! ;D Richard Gilbert, than Gilbert Richard... it looks like he fancied a change of names from the very beginning. It'll take a bit of time to go through all this information, but it's certainly very interesting!
Could this be their son, born before the marriage?
PITCHERS, RICHARD GEORGE ALBERT FRED -
GRO Reference: 1925 D Quarter in WHITTLESEY Volume 03B Page 724 Occasional Copy: B
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Plenty of options there for that boy to swap his names about!
Looking for him in 1939 without success so far.
Tony.
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One other thing that's been niggling.
From the newspaper report we know he was 'bound over' in 1946 for the bigamous marriage to Nora Reddington.
He is not imprisoned until 1949 - What for?
Tony.
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Then there's this:
Births Dec 1922 Whittlesey 3B 763
Bellamy, Mary Celia Pitcher (mmn Markson)
Just going by the index this girl possibly registered as the child of the Bellamy/Markson marriage (we'd need the cert to know more).
Mr Bellamy died in WW1.......
Tony.
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George Pitchers had a sister called Celia...
The plot thickens...
Surname First name(s) Spouse District Vol Page
Marriages Dec 1945 (>99%)
Bellamy Mary C Bothamley Peterbro' 3b 633
Bothamley Frederick F Bellamy Peterbro' 3b 633
Bothamley Frederick F Kennelly Peterbro' 3b 633
Kennelly Mary C Bothamly Peterbro' 3b 633
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I think I've got him!!!!!
Looking at his attestation on Ancestry pointed to by PatLac he gives the 9th December 1901 date of birth that matches his 1939 entry. His place of birth is Newark, Peterborough, Northamptonshire. I didn't know that there was a Newark near Peterborough!
I started to work my way through the boys on the 1911 with Newark, Northamptonshire as their place of birth. Any that could be accounted for by a death or appearance on the 1939 register I set aside and moved on to the next.
Richard Gilbert Pitchers is the son of a former horsekeeper George Pitchers, has a brother Fred and a sister Rose. He married a woman whose maiden name was Markson. I can't find any record of him after this 1926 marriage.
He appears as Gilbert Pitchers in Woolpack Lane Whittlesey 1911 with widowed father George, at this time a general labourer, and siblings Leah, Priscilla, Lilian, Fred and May.
From freebmd:
Births Mar 1902 Peterboro 3B 218
Pitchers, Richard Gilbert
Births Dec 1907 Peterboro 3B 188
Pitchers, Bertie Fred
Births Sep 1904 Peterboro 3B 213
Pitchers, Rose Priscilla
Jumping back to the 1901 father George, born Banham Norfolk, is working as a "Horsekeeper on Farm" at Newark, Peterborough Without, Northamptonshire.
Gilbert Pitchers in 1921 is at Landi Kotal Camp, Khyber Pass, North West Frontier Province. He is a Private in the Northamptonshire Regiment.
Back at Whittlesey in 1921 father George is with the children that have not yet left home. There is also a widowed Housekeeper, Lucy Mabel Bellamy and her young son Harold Sidney Bellamy.
From freebmd:
Marriages Sep 1926 Whittlesey 3B 1362
Gilbert R Pitchers + Lucy M Bellamy
Births Mar 1915 Whittlesey 3B 913
Bellamy, Harrold Sydney (mmn Markson)
Marriages Jun 1914 Whittlesey 3B 1305
Herbert S Bellamy + Lucy M Markson
Herbert Bellamy was killed in World War one.
I haven't been able to find anything else on Richard Gilbert/Gilbert Richard after that 1926 marriage to his father's housekeeper.
Lucy by 1939 I think is with a George H Kennelly at Redbrick Farm, Newark, Peterborough. They are shown as being married but I've not yet found the marriage. She seems to have 'lost' a few years from her age given in 1921 but there is a Kennelly daughter with them and this girl's 1938 entry on freebmd has the mother's maiden name given as Markson.
Lucy is a bit of a mystery too. The green ink on the 39 indicates that she later used the forenames Hannah Lucy. There is a 1971 death in Peterborough district of Hannah Lucy Kennelly in 1971 with date of birth 13 Aug 1894.
Several trees on Ancestry have her starting life as Hannah Lucy Hazell in Reddish Lancashire in 1894 but I can't work out how, if that's her, she came to have the surname Markson.
If I'm right that your Gordon Roland Markerson/Markinson is actually Gilbert Richard Pitchers then the 1934 marriage to Phyllis was likely bigamous too! He seems to have kept his initials and created a surname based on the maiden name of his wife!
My curiosity got the better of me and I sent for Richard Gilbert Pitcher's birth certificate. I had to use the reference from freebmd as I couldn't seem to find the same one on the GRO index.
The PDF arrived today and guess what? His date of birth is Ninth December 1901. BINGO!!!
I'll try and snip part of the cert. What does everyone think? Is it case solved or have I lost the plot?
Best wishes, Tony.
A few things of coincidence here.
Richard Gilbert Pitchers - this is my father's father, My father's name is George J.P. Markinson (similar initials for his middle names there... maybe?). My father's brother, Charles, named one of HIS son's Richard, although I wouldn't have thought he would have known the TRUE history of his own father's birth name.
Richard/Gordon, whatever his real name is, his father was indeed a George (or so Ancestry is suggesting on their 'HINTS', which would make sense as to why my father was Christened George. The hints stop here as far as Ancestry suggestions go.
On a plus side, both my mother and father have taken the Ancestry DNA tests and I am currently awaiting their results. It'll be interesting if any of your research correlate with these result findings. I'll keep you posted.
The other point is that if Gordon's marriage to Phylis Oakley 3rd Feb 1934 makes Gordon 33, that's plenty of time in those days to accept that he could indeed have been married and fathered children to a previous marriage. When I look back through history of marriages, there are a lot of people married in their late teens early 20s.
I'm still relatively green to researching my history, and I don't know how you managed to research the findings you have done Tony, but I applaud your skill and thank you.
I'm not sure if I should build these potential findings into my tree now, start another with these names/DOBs and see what results, or what.
Please feel free to DM me if you need any specific info I haven't included as I'm sure you are just as interested in this as I am.
Regards
Dan
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One other thing that's been niggling.
From the newspaper report we know he was 'bound over' in 1946 for the bigamous marriage to Nora Reddington.
He is not imprisoned until 1949 - What for?
Tony.
Where was thew imprisonment information originating?
-
I've had this email from the Wakefield Archives in West Yorkshire today who handle the prison deeds for Armley Prison. It might be something to go on.
We have now undertaken a search of the Armley Prison collection (ref. C187) and I am afraid we were not able to find an entry for Gordon Richard Markinson. There was, however an entry for a Gordon Rowland Markerson imprisoned at a similar date to your enquiry. This gentleman seemed to match the description you had given and was imprisoned for a similar offence. He was admitted to the prison on the 22nd of October 1949 and was released on the 9th of January 1950.
I have undertaken a search on the website freebmd.org and was able to find a marriage entry for George Markerson to Phyllis Oakley in March of 1934. I was not able to find a birth entry of registration of death for Gordon R. Markerson.
Morning,
The 1949 imprisonment date came from this contact from the prison archives back at reply #51.
It only struck me when having a thorough re read of the whole thread that the newspaper report found was from 1946.
Tony.
-
So I've set up another couple of trees from scratch with the info Tony has found and used the suggested hints on Ancestry to see what it throws back.
I started with the Gilbert Richard Pitchers - Lucy Bellamy connection and worked it from there. The results I've compiled have been from the BDMs and other access Ancestry uses, as well as having a nosey at where some of the info sits in the publicly available trees from other users.
Gilbert R Pitchers -m- Lucy M Bellamy 26th July 1926
Makes Gilbert 25 years old
Lucy M Bellamy born April - June 1872 in Peterboro'
3b 269
From the GREEN FAMILY TREE:
Lucy M Bellamy (nee MARKSON) born 13 Aug 1894, Stockport, Cheshire - Died July 1971 Peterborough
Marriage to Herbert abt. 1891 in Fletton, Huntingdonshire
Son from marriage - Harold Sydney Bellamy 7 Jan 1915, Whittlesey, Died about April 2003, Alford, Lincs
_________
Back to the Pitchers household in the 1911 Census.
George Pitchers aged 44 - Widowed - General Labourer - Born April 1866, Banham, Norfolk
- Married to Sarah Elizabeth Dolby, born 1872 in Helpston, Northants - Died April 1909 Peterboro'
Also in house at that time:
Leah age 11 (Born in Peterboro')
Gilbert 9 (born in Neewark)
Prescilla (also listed as Rose Prescilla) 7 (Eastfield)
Lilian 5 (Eastfield)
Fred 3 (Peterboro')
Mary 1 (Peterboro')
George died 9th April 1945 (Fountain Family tree)
Gilbert listed as 16years and 4 months, simgle, Newark, Private/Soldier in Northampton Rgt (page 38)
the connection to Hannah Lucy/Lucy Mabel Hazell/Markson (a few names to go at here) - from the trees I could access, no connection to any marriage or children from this relationship
George Pitchers -m- Sarah Elizabeth Dolby 21 Feb 1898
George's father, William -m- Elizabeth in the 1871 Census. Liced at 8 Hempnall Rd in Woodton, Norfolk.
Also in house at that time
William - Head - General labourer - Widowed from Elizabeth
Robert
Mary A
John
Herbert G
Matilda
Walter
Frederick
Not sure if this helps but it's a bit more to go on (maybe).
I guess it depends how well you want to trust what Ancestry hints as connected suggestions but will certainly be interesting if the DNA results connect any of these tree lines I found this info from to my own.
As I mentioned above, I'm by no means good at this but I'm trying to learn so any pointers would be greatly appreciated, and once again, thank you for all your input. Just wait till I get to working down my Mother's side – her father had told her (take from this what you will) that he was related to Mary Queens of Scotts :))
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I'd forgotten all about that quote on the imprisonment :D
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Researching Mr Pitchers is the way I'd go next. If he can be found having a life after that 1926 marriage - a 1939 register entry or death record - then he can't have become your Gordon Roland/Richard and my theory would be disproved. I'd keep him out of your own tree until more research has been done.
Richard Gilbert/Gilbert Richard Pitchers does appear in a number of Ancestry trees but none of them have anything on his life after 1926. You could consider messaging the tree owners to see if anyone has any family stories about him. Something about "Uncle Gilbert that disappeared" would be gold dust!
Your Dad having taken a DNA test is very good news and if you're very lucky his match list will point quickly to the truth. There are lots of Rootschatters with DNA expertise that will help.
As others have said please do be wary of Ancestry hints. They can be helpful but reflect what people have built into their trees and can mislead.
Happy hunting!
Tony.
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One way of knowing where Lucy Mabel's surname Markson came from is to find her first marriage record to Herbert Sydney (Sidney) Bellamy.
Hannah Lucy Hazel(l) had a brother Mark and a brother Harold. Maybe she used her brother's name to create a new surname (Markson) and gave her first son the other brother's name, Harold.
In 1911 Lucy Hazell (17) was living with brother Mark and wife, and brother Harold in Stockport Third, Reddish, Cheshire. No sign of her after that, unless she is one of two H. Hazell who emigrated to Canada.
If Richard Gilbert Pritcher was Gordon Roland Markerson/Markinson, he might have borrowed from her the idea of faking his name.
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One way of knowing where Lucy Mabel's surname Markson came from is to find her first marriage record to Herbert Sydney (Sidney) Bellamy.
Hannah Lucy Hazel(l) had a brother Mark and a brother Harold. Maybe she used her brother's name to create a new surname (Markson) and gave her first son the other brother's name, Harold.
In 1911 Lucy Hazell (17) was living with brother Mark and wife, and brother Harold in Stockport Third, Reddish, Cheshire. No sign of her after that, unless she is one of two H. Hazell who emigrated to Canada.
If Richard Gilbert Pritcher was Gordon Roland Markerson/Markinson, he might have borrowed from her the idea of faking his name.
A picture of the certificate is on one of the Ancestry trees.
21st April 1914 District Registry Office Whittlesey.
Lucy Mabel Markson, Spinster
Father: John Markson, Undertaker (deceased)
???
Tony.
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Thanks Tony. I'm in Brazil, I don't have access to many UK records.
I can see that Hannah Lucy Hazell's father was John Hazel and he died in 1909 (FS tree, no source), which is consistent with the information that Lucy Markson gave about her father, but he is listed as a Carter (transcription, could be wrong) on the 1881 Census and a Coal Agent on his son's birth certificate on 28 December 1881 (Walter William Hazel). I don't have access to his occupation after that. If he died as an Undertaker that would confirm that she changed her surname.
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Tony,
You wrote:
"Lucy by 1939 I think is with a George H Kennelly at Redbrick Farm, Newark, Peterborough. They are shown as being married but I've not yet found the marriage. She seems to have 'lost' a few years from her age given in 1921 but there is a Kennelly daughter with them and this girl's 1938 entry on freebmd has the mother's maiden name given as Markson."
I think Lucy Mabel Markson wasn't the biological mother of this 'daughter', she was probably her granddaughter registered as daughter. I though Lucy was a bit old to have another child and I found this newspaper article. Lucy Ann Kennelly married Lucy's son Harold Sydney Bellamy. Her father was Henry Kennelly and mother Susannah Ward. I suspect Henry was George Herbert Kennely's uncle.
AFFILIATION ORDER
.... AFFILIATION ORDER. Pte. Thomas Patrick Bannon, Royal Artillery, Woolwich, was summoned by Lucy Ann Kennelly, 3 Tucker's-yard, Stanground, for an affiliation order. Appelant was represented by Mr. J. W. Winter, of Huntingdon, and defendant denied paternity ... she discovered her condition she asked him what he was going to do but he gave no definite answer. When defendent went to Aldershot she went out with another man. A child was born on December 7th. On Monday night defendant called at 3. Tucker's-yard where ...
Published: Friday 04 March 1938
Newspaper: Peterborough Standard
County: Northamptonshire, England