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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: Lazarus on Sunday 08 September 13 07:46 BST (UK)

Title: 62 Foot Depot Belfast 1861
Post by: Lazarus on Sunday 08 September 13 07:46 BST (UK)
I am trying to establish if James Wyatt from Glossop Derbyshire served in Belfast C1861.
Assuming it is "my" james,he married 1860 Belfast,Ellen Faren (or similar)
d/o Edward.
I have found a listing of a James Wyatt indicating he was a member of 62 Foot Depot in Belfast in 1861.
I believe this might be an English Regiment.
In order to prove this I am hoping that enlistment documentation if available might reveal the name of his parents or his permanent home address.

I have not been able to find my man on an 1861 Census.I am assuming he enlisted between 1851 and 1861.

Again assuming I have the correct person,he died 1870 Glossop Derbyshire.

Any help greatly appreciated.
Title: Re: 62 Foot Depot Belfast 1861
Post by: aghadowey on Sunday 08 September 13 09:04 BST (UK)
There was no such thing as an 'English' regiment (or an Irish regiment)- all part of the British Army.

Irish marriages only lists fathers (and their occupation). James Wyatt's father was James-
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FGFW-253
Title: Re: 62 Foot Depot Belfast 1861
Post by: Lazarus on Sunday 08 September 13 10:09 BST (UK)
Pardon my ignorance Aghadowey.
I wasn't sure if I have the right man.
His father is James Wyatt.
Seems they had children Hannah 1861,.Mary Catherine (Minnie) b1863,Edward James b1864 all born Belfast and Jane Ellen b1868 Glossop Derbyshire.

I think James died d1870 Whitfield Glossop and his wife remarried.
I think wife Ellen came from Belfast.

I thought military records if available might prove I have the right person.

With thanks

Rex
Title: Re: 62 Foot Depot Belfast 1861
Post by: aghadowey on Sunday 08 September 13 10:23 BST (UK)
There might be military records which survive- lots of experts on Armed Forces board will be able to help with this and hopefully a moderator will soon move this to the correct board.

Looking at this from a non-military angle- have you found a birth certificate for Edward James? (should list father's occupation as well as mother's name). Jane Ellen's English birth certificate would also confirm mother's name (father's occupation might have changed).

Added- here's extracted record for Edward's birth in Belfast-
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FRQY-9PL
Title: Re: 62 Foot Depot Belfast 1861
Post by: Lazarus on Sunday 08 September 13 10:27 BST (UK)
Thank you aghadowey.
I wasn't sure that I had the correct board.This family may have moved around a bit and militay documents might explain.

Rex
Title: Re: 62 Foot Depot Belfast 1861
Post by: Lazarus on Sunday 08 September 13 10:45 BST (UK)
aghadowey
Father of James Wyatt was a butcher.
An English birth record for Jane Ellen would be likely to confirm the mothers.
The mother Ellen must have remarried ( Henry Lomas) in 1870 the year James Wyatt died.
The 1871 Census has the Lomas/Wyatt family living in Glossop.

Thanks
Rex
Title: Re: 62 Foot Depot Belfast 1861
Post by: km1971 on Sunday 08 September 13 12:08 BST (UK)
Hi Rex

Did you find the information regarding the 62th Foot on Findmypast in their 1861 index? This index is based upon the Muster and Paylist for Q2 1861. The same source has five other men of that name serving.

If he did not serve long enough to earn a pension his record would not have been kept. This would have given his age and place of birth, but not his next of kin. You will have to go the Kew and look at the muster and paylists to find his first and last entries. These often give his age and place of birth.  By the end of the 1860s the musters list wives on the married establishment and the ages of any children.

Ken
Title: Re: 62 Foot Depot Belfast 1861
Post by: Lazarus on Sunday 08 September 13 12:30 BST (UK)
Hello Ken
I am in Australia so a visit to Kew is out of the question.
The possibility of my James Wyatt being in Belfast with 62nd Foot Depot arises through a listing on a site "forces-war-records.co.uk".
If I have the correct man,they had three children born Belfast and one born Derbyshire.
I need confirmation of hi birth place C1833.
He was only 37 when he died.
Again if I am correct,his mother was Hannah (Hopwood)

Thanks
Rex
Title: Re: 62 Foot Depot Belfast 1861
Post by: km1971 on Sunday 08 September 13 17:30 BST (UK)
I am in Australia so a visit to Kew is out of the question.

Check at your nearest LDS centre or National/State archives. Some musters have been put onto microfilm.

Ken
Title: Re: 62 Foot Depot Belfast 1861
Post by: Lazarus on Monday 09 September 13 00:04 BST (UK)
I was hoping a military expert might respond with access to records for 62nd Regiment of Foot Depot in Belfast.

Rex
Title: Re: 62 Foot Depot Belfast 1861
Post by: aghadowey on Monday 09 September 13 00:06 BST (UK)
Army records will be at Kew not Belfast.
Title: Re: 62 Foot Depot Belfast 1861
Post by: Lazarus on Monday 09 September 13 00:10 BST (UK)
Is it possible the moderator will redirect this to a more appropriate board?

Rex
Title: Re: 62 Foot Depot Belfast 1861
Post by: millymcb on Monday 09 September 13 01:11 BST (UK)
Hi Lazarus

I have moved this to Armed Forces main board -  new and best home for this thread :)

Which list did you find him listed on at Forces War Records? What else did it say?

Looking at what people have suggested so far - Have you checked FindMyPast for the James Wyatt listings there?

And - aghadowey suggested birth certificates of the children born in Belfast as these often give Regiment and Rank details for serving soldiers. Do you have any of these?
 

Milly
Title: Re: 62 Foot Depot Belfast 1861
Post by: aghadowey on Monday 09 September 13 01:15 BST (UK)
Thanks for moving the topic to the correct board, milly  :)

Registration of births started in 1864 so the only child registered will be Edward James (1864).
Title: Re: 62 Foot Depot Belfast 1861
Post by: Lazarus on Monday 09 September 13 01:22 BST (UK)
Hi Milly
I found could be him on Forces War Records by a bisic search their site line 14.
Tried for short term membership but unable to procede.Only gave basics including year 1861.

I do not have access to FindMyPast.

I only have IGI record of birth of children.No birth certificates.No mention of military service.

Thanks

Rex



Title: Re: 62 Foot Depot Belfast 1861
Post by: Lazarus on Monday 09 September 13 01:33 BST (UK)
1871 Census Glossop Derbyshire indicates that Edward James Wyatt was born Ireland.
He is with his mother now remarried to Henry Lomas 1870.

Rex
Title: Re: 62 Foot Depot Belfast 1861
Post by: millymcb on Monday 09 September 13 01:36 BST (UK)
 
Looks like FindMyPast or the birth cert is your best next step. I think the 62nd Regt were with 14th Depot at Belfast until 1866 so that birth cert does fall within the right dates

Milly


Title: Re: 62 Foot Depot Belfast 1861
Post by: Lazarus on Monday 09 September 13 01:44 BST (UK)
Thnks Milly.
Forces War Records 1861 Census may not give his place of birth or names of parents.
Purchase of a birth certificate might be the best option unless something comes up on FindMyPast

Many thanks
Rex
Title: Re: 62 Foot Depot Belfast 1861
Post by: millymcb on Monday 09 September 13 02:07 BST (UK)
Where did you get Belfast Depot from? The free search I just did on Forces War records shows rank and regiment but not place. It just says Depot so could have been any one of the other depots at the time (eg Canterbury, Limerick, Parkhurst, Walmer,)

And..I wonder if the Forces War Record entry was from this collection?
http://www.forces-war-records.co.uk/Collections/Info/23/Serving-personnel-on-the-1861-census

If so - then would that include Belfast in 1861? I don't think the 1861 returns were kept so how would the data be extracted for Belfast?  It would make one of the English locations a much more likely option

(I am not an Irish Census expert or familiar with the Forces War Records collection so happy to be corrected here)  :)

Which brings us back to the Worldwide Army Index 1861 at FindMyPast..... which contains info extracted from the relevant Muster Books to coincide with the 1861 Census date

Milly
 
Title: Re: 62 Foot Depot Belfast 1861
Post by: Lazarus on Monday 09 September 13 02:33 BST (UK)
Thanks again Milly.
Belfast was an assumption as James Wyatt = 1860 Belfast Ellen Faron ( or similar).
Assuming correct person their first daughter Hannah was born 1861 Belfast.

Rex
Title: Re: 62 Foot Depot Belfast 1861
Post by: millymcb on Monday 09 September 13 02:57 BST (UK)
Ah I see - it is just that your initial post suggests that you know that the James Wyatt you had found was with the 62nd Depot Belfast...not just with 62nd at any Depot. It sheds a different light on things.

I suspect that it was not the Belfast Depot (Given the source of that 1861 Census data collection).

That makes the birth cert route look like a much more constructive route to take.

Milly


Title: Re: 62 Foot Depot Belfast 1861
Post by: Lazarus on Monday 09 September 13 03:01 BST (UK)
Thanks Milly
I am just a little confused.

Rex
Title: Re: 62 Foot Depot Belfast 1861
Post by: aghadowey on Monday 09 September 13 08:47 BST (UK)
Best to work back step by step through available records rather than leading yourself, and us, on wild goose chases.

1871 census - Ellen & children Edward, Hannah, Minnie born Ireland
1881 census- Ellen & children Edward, Hannah, Mary C. born Belfast
1891 census - Edward as born Belfast and mother born [County] Down

Edward's birth certificate will confirm details father's occupation.
Birth: Edward James Wyatt, 1864, Belfast registration district, volume 16 page 270
Title: Re: 62 Foot Depot Belfast 1861
Post by: Lazarus on Monday 09 September 13 09:54 BST (UK)
Thank you aghadowey.
Much appreciated.

Rex
Title: Re: 62 Foot Depot Belfast 1861
Post by: Maiwand on Sunday 15 September 13 12:44 BST (UK)
The 62nd (Wiltshire) Regiments museum is in Salisbury Wiltshire. The website is www.thewardrobe.org.uk . Give them a try they may have muster roll. During the time you are looking at the Regimental Depots were in fact all over the place and very ofen co locatred with outher units. The 62nd Regiments permant depot was opened about 1878-80 at Le Marchant Barracks, in Devizes.

Give it a try

Cheers

Maiwand
Title: Re: 62 Foot Depot Belfast 1861
Post by: Lazarus on Sunday 15 September 13 12:51 BST (UK)
Thank you Maiwand.
I will give that a try.

Rex
Title: Re: 62 Foot Depot Belfast 1861
Post by: hasta on Wednesday 18 September 13 03:03 BST (UK)
Rex - it looks like your initial hunch was right.
Source - 1861 Army Census:

James  Wyatt 
62nd Foot (Wiltshire) Depot 
Private 
Soldier Number: 3980
Stationed at: Belfast   
also a bit of Googling has many mentions of the 62nd in Belfast in 1861/62.
Title: Re: 62 Foot Depot Belfast 1861
Post by: Lazarus on Wednesday 18 September 13 04:51 BST (UK)
That's great thank you hasta.I had almost given up hope.
Any reference to his d.o.b. or parents names?
I think I read 62 Regiment of Foot came from Wiltshire.
? not all that far from Glossop.
Can I please ask where you sourced this information.Trying to prove I have the right man.

With thanks
Rex
Title: Re: 62 Foot Depot Belfast 1861
Post by: km1971 on Wednesday 18 September 13 06:41 BST (UK)
Hi Rex

Because of the lack of permanent depots until 1873 you cannot relate the nominal geographical name with where a regiment found recruits.

As you have found the 62nd Foot had a depot in Belfast and would have found lots of recruits in Ireland. Regiments also had recruiting parties far and wide and after joining sent the recruits to wherever the depot was fot attestation.

You can order the Belfast birth certificate here - http://www.nidirect.gov.uk/index/information-and-services/government-citizens-and-rights/order-life-event-certificates/order-a-birth-certificate.htm#fees

Even at £15 this would be better value than employing a researcher to look up the muster book. As the certificate should give you his regiment.

Ken
Title: Re: 62 Foot Depot Belfast 1861
Post by: Lazarus on Wednesday 18 September 13 07:05 BST (UK)
Hello Ken
Thank you for this.
However my gut feeling is that he was born England S/o James Wyatt and Hannah Hopwood C1833/35.
There was a baptism Glossop 25 Nov 1835 IGI #054491.
I think this is him who married Belfast 1860 whilst serving with 62 Regiment.
I am trying to prove I have the right person.It is looking positive.

Rex
Title: Re: 62 Foot Depot Belfast 1861
Post by: aghadowey on Wednesday 18 September 13 08:41 BST (UK)
You can order the Belfast birth certificate here - http://www.nidirect.gov.uk/index/information-and-services/government-citizens-and-rights/order-life-event-certificates/order-a-birth-certificate.htm#fees

Even at £15 this would be better value than employing a researcher to look up the muster book. As the certificate should give you his regiment.

Goodness NO! Don't order the certificate there!

Read the 1st post here for information on ordering a four Euro research certificate-
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=599538.0
Title: Re: 62 Foot Depot Belfast 1861
Post by: km1971 on Wednesday 18 September 13 14:30 BST (UK)
You can order the Belfast birth certificate here - http://www.nidirect.gov.uk/index/information-and-services/government-citizens-and-rights/order-life-event-certificates/order-a-birth-certificate.htm#fees

Even at £15 this would be better value than employing a researcher to look up the muster book. As the certificate should give you his regiment.

Goodness NO! Don't order the certificate there!

Read the 1st post here for information on ordering a four Euro research certificate-
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=599538.0

Belfast comes under Northern Ireland - hence GRONI. Roscommon covers the Republic. I cannot see the UK allowing the RoI to sell its data for 4 euros.

Rex...The certificate I was referring to was for the child born in Belfast after civil registration started in 1864. The hope being that it gives the father's regiment. An earlier post gave you the references I believe.

Ken
Title: Re: 62 Foot Depot Belfast 1861
Post by: aghadowey on Wednesday 18 September 13 14:54 BST (UK)
Ireland was until 1921 one country, therefore, GRO in Roscommon holds the 1864 birth record in question. Instead of paying the full price for a certificate (as you would when order your own birth certificate, for example) you can get the 4 euro research certificate from Roscommon. It's all explained in the link I posted.

aghadowey (ex-Ireland Moderator)
Title: Re: 62 Foot Depot Belfast 1861
Post by: millymcb on Wednesday 18 September 13 17:28 BST (UK)
Rex - it looks like your initial hunch was right.
Source - 1861 Army Census:

James  Wyatt 
62nd Foot (Wiltshire) Depot 
Private 
Soldier Number: 3980
Stationed at: Belfast   
also a bit of Googling has many mentions of the 62nd in Belfast in 1861/62.

I stand corrected...Belfast it is ;D ;D

Milly
Title: Re: 62 Foot Depot Belfast 1861
Post by: hasta on Wednesday 18 September 13 17:39 BST (UK)
Hi Rex
As I said in my earlier post, the source is the 1861 World Army Census. However it is just an index, so no further details included other that what I posted.

This is from 1860's Belfast Timeline
http://www.glenravel.com/belfast-timeline.html

May 1864
"Brigadier-General Haines, Commander of the First Infantry Brigade in the Dublin district, inspected the depot battalion in Belfast Barracks. The troops, to the number of 700, consisting of the depots of the 20th, 69th, 62nd, 63rd, 76th, and 96th Regiments, under the command of Colonel Frazer were paraded in the Barrack Square."

So James Wyatt might well still be in Belfast in 1864 when Edward James is born.

Do you have the marriage cert for James Wyatt/ Ellen Faren ? I would think that one is even more useful to get. It will confirm his fathers name and occupation (which you know already)
Details are
1860 - Registration District: Belfast
Vol:2 - Pg : 834
I would be optimistic that you have enough circumstantial evidence now to take the punt !!
You can definitely get both certs from GRO Roscommon for €4 each as aghadowey says - I have gotten several Belfast certs from them 1860s through 1880's.