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Census Lookups General Lookups => Census Lookup and Resource Requests => Census and Resource Discussion => Completed Census Requests => Topic started by: Jan Ann on Wednesday 04 September 13 09:54 BST (UK)
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Hello All - Hope you are all well on this Sunny Morning in Lancashire :)
I have posted this quest on the General Board because the search may be countrywide for what I am asking. I know it isnt protocol to look for living relatives - but I dont want details of the living publishing on here - send me Personal Messages if you find anything folks.
My dilemma is that I have promised to help to someone out on a pretty urgent project - unfortunately because of health issues and family dilemmas I am not able to help, because at present, I have no access to the internet. - This post is being typed by my daughter, who I am in contact with via mobile, I can check in now and again to see progress and check e-mail, but that is about it. I do hate to let people down and so that is why I am asking for your kind help. All hands to the pump, so to speak!
I am trying to track down the living relatives of 3 airmen who tragically died during WWII when their RAF plane crashed into a cinema. To see the full story you can read the fund raising leaflet produced by Mick Bradford here http://www.tiveyfamilytree.com/Shottermill.pdf
The Airmen were:
Deaths (all recorded GRO Jul-Aug-Sep)
Flying Officer William Michael Esdaile Winter (Pilot) age 22 (1920)
(civil death registration – Vol no. 2a, page no. 544)
Pilot Officer John Horace Lindley (Squadron Adjutant) age 34 (1908)
(civil death registration – Vol no. 2a, page no. 545)
Flight Sergeant Wilfred Edward Cleall** (Radar Operator) age 27 (1914)
(civil death registration – Vol no. 2a, page no. 545)
**b Wilfred's birth name was Wilfred Ernest Newton, Long Ashton, Somerset (Oct-Nov-Dec) 1914
The other information on the mens' you will find here: http://www.tiveyfamilytree.com/shottermillrelativesearch.html so as not to compromise Rootschat privacy policy.
If anyone can help with any snippets of info, contact numbers - just anything ;D The aim is to have some living relatives present at the unveiling of the memorial. Please post your replies but be careful of mentioning the living - contact me by PM instead and I will pass these on to Mick
Thank you all in anticipation - your time is appreciated.
Kind Regards
Jan Tivey
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Esdaile Winter is likely to be a family name and a quick google shows several of them including one in Australia in 1931.
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Hi,
1962 - sister Mary was unmarried. (Born 1924 Eastbourne - mothers maiden name Bettinson)
The probate for the mother of William Michael Esdaile Winter - Gladys Stovin Winter who died 25 th September 1962 was left to Westminster Bank and Mary Maclean Winter (Spinster)
The Rev Ernest E winter had died 8 April 1958 Eastbourne - probate to Westminster Bank - no clues.
Sandra
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The sister appears to have died unmarried - Mary Maclean Winter born 24 September 1924 - died June 1975 Oxford. Oxfordshire. (Aged 50 years) :'(
Probates only go as far as 1966 at the moment ::)
Sandra
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I've had a look on Mundia and I have found John Horace Lindley in 3 trees. One of those trees seems to be made by his nephew/niece of something. I will contact all 3 and ask them to give me their email address or phone number. When I receive an email address or phone number, I will PM it to you.
Jack
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Gladys Bettinson had a brother Frederick (Uncle to William and Mary)
Frederick Liddel Bettinson died 19 May 1962 Worcestershire England. 30 Causey farm Road. Haley Green. Halesowen - probated granted to the widow Phoebe Jane Bettinson (maiden name Chase)
Frederick and Phoebe were married 1906 West Bromwich. Staffordshire. Had 1 daughter Gladys Maria Bettinson aged 2 years in 1911.
Possible marriage for Gladys Bettinson in 1932 Stourbridge to Edward A Roberts.
Possibilities of births to the couple - can't be specific ::)
Looks like Gladys died Stourbridge Dec 1972 - no probate to help. ::)
Sandra
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Ernest E Winter had a brother Cecil Esdaile Winter - Married at Blaby 1916 to Gladys M Corah.
Cecil died 16 July 1964 - Probate to his wife Gladys Marie Winter and company Chairman Robert Wessel. (Entry recorded by a private member tree - have sent a message)
2 female births to this couple.
The daughter Pamela (cousin to Mary) born Sept 1917 married John Peel Weston Samuelson (born 13 Sept 1917) 15 Sept 1942. Couple had 2 sons before divorce. Both Pamela and John are now deceased.
Son Nigel Esdaile Samuelson was born 7 September 1944 - died 9 April 2010
Married twice, had a daughter and 2 sons with second wife Angela Margaret Samways (now deceased 1999) The first born daughter has Esdaile as part of her middle name.
Cecil appears in the cricket archives :-
http://cricketarchive.com/Archive/Players/33/33994/33994.html
Ernest also had another brother Claude Esdaile Winter born 1882 who died 23 June 1959 Bexhill Hospital, Sussex but the probate for him did not give any further clues.
Another brother of Ernest - Gerald Esdaile Winter (nee Foster) born 1877 died 17 January 1923, probate to his wife Gertrude Searley Winter. Gerald had married 1917 -
Sandra
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Hello Sandra et al - I have replied to your message on Ancestry. Pamela was my grandmother, and so William is a previously unknown first cousin and I will be most pleased to donate or assist in any way. Her sister is also still alive, with daughters, and I will let them know about this also.
I will also get in touch with the Maclean clan, as by his grandmother Jessie, William is part of the clan.
Regards, John
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Hi John,
Thanks for your speedy response - ancestry is pretty slow - will look forward to your message arriving in due course.
Am sure Mick Bradford will be delighted a relative has been found.
Regards
Sandra
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You might also find this interesting John
http://library.sps.edu/06archives/war/ww2/pdf/Winter_William_Michael_Esdaile.pdf
Sandra
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Thank you for this, fascinating and tragic at the same time.
One of my middle names is Winter, by the way.
I am also a member of the RAF Club in London (never served but via other family) so I am quite sure between us all we can get this done.
Regards, John
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Just a quickie. on my mobile. Thank you all so much, Mick will be thrilled. Jan
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Hello Rootschat Peeps ;)
Now that I have access to a proper computer and can use I keyboard (briefly) I would just like to thank EVERYONE who has contributed to finding these relatives. Mick will be absolutely thrilled that people have responded.
I cannot thank you all enough for helping ME out like this - You are all Absolute STARS! :)
Cheers
Jan :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-*
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I've been following this thread [not contributed though] & I realise a lot of information has quite rightly been passed by pm.
Could you just post, though, whether you have found living relatives for all the airmen & how many in total? When the time comes, please post a link to the memorial unveiling :)
Josey
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Hi Josey
Relatives have been found for Flying Officer William Michael Esdaile Winter (Pilot) and Pilot Officer John Horace Lindley (Squadron Adjutant) Unfortunately, we havent had any contact for Flight Sergeant Wilfred Edward Cleall (Birth name NEWTON) (Radar Operator), but Mick is absolutely thrilled about the repsonse (as am I :) )
I Will certainly post any news items or links to media about the memorial's unveiling.
Cheers
Jan :-*
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Hi,
Just joined Rootschat because I have been told that someone was looking for relatives of John Horace Lindley. Not familiar yet with the working of the website so bear with me but wanted to say quickly that John Horace Lindley's mother was my Great Aunt Emma. I have info and dates of John's parents, if this is of interest, and I was very interested to read the story of these three airmen.
Thanks
Raydor
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Hi There Raydor
I would be very interested in John's relatives as his wife Francis Tivey is connected to my husband (distantly) as Rootschat does not like peeps publishing their e-mail address - please go to my website contact page for my e-mail address. http://www.tiveyfamilytree.com/Tivey-family-Contact.htm
Cheers
Jan :-*
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Hi Jan
There is a probate record for Wilfred Ernest Newton Cleall............administration at Llandudno
12 Jan 1943 to a Ada Emily Cleall spinster............Mike might find if he sent for the will
it could give some clues to any rellies
sandie
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Some further info on Ada Emily Newton/Cleall and her family from the Tivey website.
http://www.tiveyfamilytree.com/shottermillrelativesearch.html
Sandra
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Wilfred Ernest Cleall (Newton)
Have sent a message to someone on anc. that has James Newton and Phyllis Elsworth, the parents of Ada Newton (mother of Wilfred), in there tree. Hopefully they will respond here.
Sandra
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This marriage already mentioned of Frederick and Phoebe . Frederick L Bettinson married Phoebe J Chase at All Saints Church West Bromwich in 1906, if you need full details I can look it up either this week or next.
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Hi,
Are we absolutely certain that Ada`s parents were James and Phyllis Newton? I have a strong feeling that she was actually the daughter of a Henry W Newton and Sarah. She has a sister Blanche aged 21 also born Bath on the 1901 census and they are living in Essex. RG13/1274 folio 74 page 25. Using the free 1911 index it would appear the Sarah, Blanche and Ada Emily are back in Walcot in 1911. I would suggest taking a look at Ada Emily`s occupation and then try looking for the surname Cleall in Walcot - only two ::) It`s all becoming clearer ;D
Not that it really helps.
Mo
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Thank you for the suggestion of the Will, Sandie - normally it would be a great idea but the ceremony will be 22nd Sept unfortunately, so not much time for it to arrive - but great thinking, non-the-less :)
Thanks SANDRA, hope they reply soon.
MO - (from my point of view) there is every possibility that Ada Emily's parents mentioned on my webpage is incorrect - I cant tell you, because I havent researched it personally I have just published the information that Mick sent me,
Please let me know of any suggestions you may have - I will try and have a look myself tomorrow now that I have access to tinternet again.
Thanks to everyone :)
Jan :-*
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I will send you a PM Jan :)
Mo
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Thanks Mo ;D
Jan :-*
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If you had the incorrect parents Jan and they turn out to be Henry W Newton and Sarah Ann Hacker, there is a family tree for this family.
The gentleman owner may has message board posts in 2010 and may have a facebook page - will send info - see what you think.
Sandra
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Thanks Sandra :-*
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Hi Jan
There is a probate record for Wilfred Ernest Newton Cleall............administration at Llandudno
12 Jan 1943 to a Ada Emily Cleall spinster............Mike might find if he sent for the will
it could give some clues to any rellies
sandie
I know you have already said no to this but there isn't a will, just a letter of administration.
However if you did pay the £6 you would get an address (albeit now out of date) for Ada
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Thanks Sandie, it's a great idea, but as I said before - timing is of the essence really - the ceremony is 22nd September so it quite possibly might not arrive by then.
Wilfred Cleall (b Newton) is the only one we have to find a rellie for now, so I will try and get around to building a tree for Ada Emily and see what we can come up with. Im almost certain (as Mo says) that one of the Cleall brothers is the father - probably Wilfred, he and Ada may have lived together for a while after the war - he married in 1920 - so he and Ada may have been together during and after the War - then he met someone else, Ada changed their names to Cleall - possibly to avoid embarrassment.
I will build a tree and see if anything comes up.
Keep suggesting folks, because every little snippet of info counts :)
Cheers
Jan :-*
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Hi Jan
was Dawn that repeated the will bit not me :)
Have you been in contact with the person with the tree for Wilfred Cleall I see his brother Alfred
Ernest died 1914.............wonder if it was him that was father?
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If Ada is the daughter of Henry & Sarah...........on the latest census her occupation is assistant licensed victualler.......... which is the trade of Alfred Ernest & his brother who managed a billiards room.
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Whoops! Sorry Sandie - I actually looked at Dawn's profile pic n then thought - another Sandie, must remember - sometimes I can only be described as a daft sod ::)
I did contact the person with the tree - but through ancestry not facebook - reason being that facebook now charges you for messages to people who aren't on your friends list - otherwise it puts the message into a separate inbox and that inbox does not alert you to the message - I think it is to stop spammers. I havent heard back from him.
Been trying to put a tree together tonight but just cant concentrate - had a very busy week, combined with illness - not good :P Think it's time for an early night so I will be fresh in the morn :)
I know that Alfred was killed in the War 1914 but he was also married in 1911 - I think it was Wilfred's child - if he also went to war, I think he returned but they didnt marry, for whatever reason, but Ada changed both her's and her son's name from Newton to Cleall - Wilfred Snr then married in 1920 to someone else, but Ada kept the name - That's my theory ::)
I am going to have a good look at the children of Henry and Sarah - 6 of them were alive in 1911, according to the census so any offspring of these children would be Wilfred's first cousins - some of them may have descendants alive - fingers crossed :)
Cheers
Jan :-*
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let me know if you want anything looking up............not facebook though never use it its the one
thing I do get annoyed when so many things want you to use it.........
sandie
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Thanks Sandie :-*
I do need any help I can get ;) I have started on the tree but not got very far, as I have the concentration of a gold fish at the moment - new meds - not good :-\
There were 6 children - all born Bath - Henry John and William Arthur 1868, Arthur Victor 1874, Herbert George 1876 and Blanche Mary Kate 1879, Ada Emily being the youngest.
I started on Henry - I think he is in Middlesex in 1911 - with a wife "Maryann" (?) and two children Elsie (who I think is Edith Kate E born 1895 Bath) and Horace born c1902 in Enfield.
That's about it so far - was going to bed an hour ago - but have been chatting on the phone for an hour - well listening anyway (my mum) ::)
So anything you can turn up will help, (and is appreciated) ;D
Cheers & Nightall
Jan :-*
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I tried Herbert George Newton m Eliza Elizabeth Rann
son Herbert Arthur Newton b 1901 Bristol d 1940 M Elsie Dora Alexander Turner
daughter Mollie Elizabeth Newton b1928 d2010 m Alan John Hinton East 1925 d 1982
son........will pm as he is I hope alive with a tree on Ancestry also a lady with photos
Herbert Arthur had a brother Royston George b 1911 d 1969 he married in1932
to Marjorie Brookman but cant see any children.
sandie
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Thanks for the information Sandie - I have sent you a reply to the PM you sent me.
Your help is much appreciated.
Cheers
Jan :-*
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HiYall
After all my dramas both last week and this (so far!) I have now got a little time to spend looking at the Newton/Cleall's family.
Thanks to Sandiep I have tried to contact 2 people with relatives of Ada Emily's brother Herbert George Newton, but they havent replied :-\
So I have made a start on the others - I am starting with Henry the eldest twin child. Sandiep has looked up Herbert George - that leaves WILLIAM ARTHUR NEWTON B 1868, ARTHUR VICTOR NEWTON B 1874 - I have checked out her sister Blanche who married Ernest L Stone in 1920 - no children.
So if anyone can help with William & Arthur, Id be grateful. I will keep updating as I go along.
Just out of interest - there here is a news item from last year featuring witnesses who were present when the plane crashed - http://www.itv.com/news/meridian/story/2012-09-22/memorial-for-bomber-crash-victims/
Cheers
Jan :-*
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heres a start on William Arthur Newton
married Jessie Langford in 1892 in Portsmouth
daughters Jessie Lillian b 1898 Portsmouth
Dorothy Ada b 1896 Portsmouth
on last census says he is in Royal Navy...........will now look for marriages of daughters
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Thanks Sandie, that's good news ;)
I hadnt looked at William because I had a pm saying he had no children - strange one :-\
Do let me know if you find anything on the marriages/descendants etc. I told Mick that I thought all avenue's were exhausted - obviously not ;D fingers crossed.
Cheers Hun
Jan :-* :-*
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there is a marriage of a Dorothy A Newton to an Alfred Waller in 1920 in Portsmouth a poss.
they appear to have had 3 children 1921, 1928, 1930 will pm names in case living
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Arthur Victor Newton married Bessie Wilson 1906 Portsmouth he was also in Royal Navy
children so far
Arthur Herbert Robert Newton b 1907 Portsmouth
Ronald William Newton b 1909 Portsmouth
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only thing I have now is deaths of Arthur Herbert Robert Newton 1986 Enfield
Ronald William Newton 1988 Bury st Edmunds Suffolk
afraid I am all Newtoned out for tonight!!
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Big Thanks to Sandiep for the PM info - just to stop anyone else looking - she has found a possible link with one of the Waller children and an address from the Electoral rolls
Cheers Sandie
I will pass the info onto Mick
;D
Jan
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the ceremony will be 22nd Sept
Have I missed it or has there been a link posted to news about the unveiling of the memorial?
Josey
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Hello all,
Apologies for not putting this on sooner.
Here are a couple of Photos * that Mick sent me of the local news coverage of the memorial unveiling. Moderator comment: photos etc removed - this is copyright material
Thanks once again to everyone who contributed and made this a very special day. :)
Cheers
Jan :-* :-* :-*
*Moderator comment: photos etc removed - this is copyright material. Link added insteadhttp://www.haslemeremessenger.com/news.cfm?id=33491&searchword=pilot
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And one more!
Moderator comment: copyright material removed. Cannot find in the online archive to post a link. :(
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fantastic Jan.........what a great ending
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Brilliant, well done to everyone involved.
Josey
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Great result!
Consider making thread complete (and lock)?
Ray
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Hiya
Bit late in the day but i am a living relative of Wilfred Newton but cant find anyone to contact. I might be able to fill in blanks with Newton tree
Qt.sam xx