RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Antrim => Ireland => Antrim Completed Look up Requests => Topic started by: charles girl on Sunday 01 September 13 05:50 BST (UK)
-
Wondering if there is anyone out there that might be related or know of any info on my grandmother's family. Her name was Elizabeth Weir born around 1902 either in Belfast or Dundalk (died 1962 in Belfast). Her mother was Elizabeth also, maiden name unknown. Her father was James Weir (a labourer). It appears James Weir had died sometime before 1918. My grandmother Elizabeth and great gran Elizabeth lived at 8 Watson Street, Belfast around 1918, when my grandmother married James Coyle (1919) they lived also at 8 Watson Street, then Gay Street, then 22 Connaught Street. Great Gran Elizabeth lived with them until her death (1877-1937). My grandmother Elizabeth had an aunt that lived off the Shankill Road (1920-1940 ?) who used to keep pigs in back yard. I do not know if she was related to the Weir family side of the family or related to Great Grandmother Elizabeth's side of family. It is beleived that this aunt may have had the surname Mclean. Thanks for any help. Charles girl
-
Hi,
Closest I can find in the 1911 census is James Weir, His wife Elizabeth and 9year old daughter Elizabeth living in Movilla Street, Newtownards.
Regards
-
the Elizabeth on that census is 13 born about 1888 however she is the closest match with the parents that you are looking for,did you get her age from a death cert where ages are usually guessed approx,she is on the 1901 census age 3 at 21 Georges st,in 1911 her parents are married 22 yrs so approx 1887/1888.
edit looks like i made a typo too birth should be 1898.
-
Hi,
Yes, I made a typo on the age. She was indeed 13 in 1911 so that would have made her birth in 1898 which agrees with the 1901 census age of 3.
Regards
-
It saves so much work if you post a link when you find a census record.
Here's the 13 year old Elizabeth Weir in 1911- what hasn't been mentioned is that it's a rather large family. Charles girl- any family stories that your grandmother had lots of brothers and sisters?
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Down/Newtownards_Urban/Movilla_Street/268777
Same family in 1901-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Newtownards_Urban/Georges_Street/1259117
Charles girl- did great-grandmother Elizabeth Weir die 21 Aug.1937? If so she was buried in Belfast City Cemetery (Public Ground so no family members listed) and address given as Belfast Infirmary.
The 1918 Belfast directory lists Mrs. Weir at 6 Watson St.- www.lennonwylie.co.uk/wyzcomplete1918.htm
In 1910 the same house is listed as vacant- http://www.lennonwylie.co.uk/wyzcomplete1910.htm
Hopefully a moderator will soon move this from completed requests to the main Antrim board.
-
Thankyou to everyone who replied. I have death cert of my great grandmother Elizabeth (also called by nickname Lizzie), and have the info of the census, sorry yes it is 6 watson street. I have tried to get birth cert on my grandmother Elizabeth (also called by nickname sissy), my mum can't remember her exact birthdate (mum is 87) but she thinks it was 12/5/1902. She died at 59 on 15/4/1962. I have also looked up Belfast Cemetary site and have all that info. I have tried to get birth cert from both Northern Ireland and Eire birth, deaths and marriages but no luck with them both. Mum is sure she said she was born in Dundalk. Would there be a Dundalk in England or Scotland ? I haven't been able to find one if there is. Grandmother Elizabeth was definately an only child. The only other thing about my grandmother Elizabeth was the family used to have a large photo ( not like the black and white photos but brown tinge like what used to be used in 1910-1915 time ) it was oval shaped. She had long hair with big black bow, white frilly blouse and long black skirt, I wonder if a struggling family around this time could have afforded a photo like this? I don't know anything of how much it cost to have photos taken back then. This was destroyed when the family house at 22 Connaught Street was burnt down (1971). My grandmother Elizabeth had 13 children and I have my grandparents marriage cert. I have heard that there was a Weir family in Belfast that many members of this family died in a fire or bombing in the family mill I don't know exactly the time span could be before 1930's. I just have hit a brick wall and can't seem to get anywhere with my grandmother's family. Thanks again for reading Charles girl.
-
this might be them
9 Sturgeon st St George Antrim 1911 cenus
Rachel Watters a widow
dtr Rachel age 16
Samuel age 13
sister Elizabeth WIER 42 a yarnspinner
dtr Elizabeth WIER Age 8 both born belfast, Elizabeth 42 is down as single but is probably a widow, if this is them you may be able to find Rachel Watters marriage for her maiden name,also in St george there is a Watson st no 18 shows an Ellen McLean.
-
if right family either of these births will get parents names,
Rachel Watters Oct Dec 1894 ,Belfast volume 1 page 275.
Samuel Watters Jan Mar 1898 ,Belfast volume 1 page 303.
-
Hi,
1894 Robert Watters married Rachel Weir in St. Annes Church of Ireland, Shankill, Belfast.
Regards
-
perhaps Elizabeth was'nt married but its strange that both Elizabeth and Rachel rubbed out the childrens born column on the census return form, they had something wrote there but rubbed it out.
-
1894 Robert Watters married Rachel Weir in St. Annes Church of Ireland, Shankill, Belfast.
Can't see that marriage but UHF database search for marriage of Rachel Weir with groom Robert Watters shows as 1892 with her father's name Samuel.
1911 census for household of Rachel Watters
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Antrim/St__George_s/Sturgeon_Street/156606
perhaps Elizabeth was'nt married but its strange that both Elizabeth and Rachel rubbed out the childrens born column on the census return form, they had something wrote there but rubbed it out.
No great mystery there- someone (possibly enumberator) rubbed out details incorrectly entered- number of children born & living was a question only married women were supposed to answer.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai001460218/
-
Hi,
Aghadowey is correct. The date should have been 1892 and I agree that the father is Samuel Weir.
Regards
-
Hello! once again thankyou for searching, sorry but I have actually already researched this Rachel and Elizabeth Weir. I am sure this is not my great grandmother as on my grandmother's marriage cert it has James Weir as her father and on my great grandmother Elizabeth's death cert it has that she is the widow of James Weir. Also she died aged 60 in 1937 which in 1911 she would have only been around 34 years old. Thankyou all for trying to help. Charles girl
-
i know you are probably going by greatgrans death cert for her age making her born 1877 but do you know if she ever had a pension,i seen on here yesterday where if the person had no birth cert the pensions office? went back through the census forms to see when they first appeared on the census,these searches are recorded i have seen some in National Archives Dublin but am not sure wheter they exist for applications after 1922. Just a last straw for you to grasp at.
-
There are pension application records for earlier dates avalaible- applicants had to be aged 70, not sure when it changed.
"One such source of data is the Old Age Pension Claim Forms held in the Public Records Office of Northern Ireland (P.R.O.N.I). These give essential information from the 1841 & 1851 censuses for Northern Ireland & Co. Donegal. Similar records are held by the National Archives in Dublin although here they are referred to as Census Search Forms and these contain the same essential information, but for the whole of Ireland, including additional records for Northern Ireland."
www.ireland-genealogy.com
http://www.belfastforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=39072.0
-
Thanks for information, my mum thinks her granny did have a pension, so I will do some investigating there. Yes I am going by the age 60 that is on her death cert, I mean you would think on such a cert that the information would be accurate ???? although my mum thought she was older, but she was only 11 when she died and I guess for all children that young all grandmothers might appear older. Thanks again and I'll keep searching. Charles girl.
-
The Old Age Pension claim forms that survive (and are on microfilm in PRONI) cover, I think, 1909-1922 only.
-
I don't think it will be relevant, but my great grandfather's sister, Mary (Minnie) Gilbert married a John Weir. They had a daughter called Sarah Anne Weir, born on 20th November 1879 at Grange, Armagh. Here's the IGI link:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FGNR-2PV
I'm not 100% sure that Mary Gilbert is the one I'm related to. But if you do happen to come across more information about these Weirs please let me know.
Good luck.
-
Hi,
John Weir married Mary Gilbert in Jan 1879 in High Street Methodist Church, Shankill, Lurgan.
Regards
-
Ooh, thank-you. How did you find that? (I'm fairly new to this)
How do you think I could go about trying to find out if this Mary Gilbert's parents were indeed William John Gilbert and Ellen Orr Killen?
-
Only fathers are listed on marriage certificates. Mary Gilbert, father- Richard. m. 1879 John Weir, father- Robert.
-
Hm, interesting. Maybe that's not my Mary (aka Minnie) then.
Minnie's uncle referred to a niece "Minnie Weir" in his will. Then when I came across a Mary Gilbert Weir I thought that had to be her. Back to square one though if her father's name was in fact Richard (should be William John).
-
PRONI has Will of Richard Gilbert- " The Will of Richard Gilbert late of Ballinacorr County Armagh Farmer who died 20 July 1891 at same place was proved at Armagh by George Blaney Roland of Ballinacorr National School Teacher the sole Executor."
Will mentions daughter Anna Gilbert, daughter "Mary or Minnie Weir", grandson Gilbert Weir.
-
Interesting. Maybe Minnie isn't a daughter of William John afterall.
I've also seen a marriage record of 21st November 1855 in Aghalee (village next door to Aghagallon where my Gilberts were from) a Sally Gilbert, daughter of Stephen Gilbert marrying Robert Gilbert, son of Thomas Gilbert.
If this Sally Gilbert is a sister of Stephen Gilbert (brother of William J. Gilbert, and therefore also son of a Stephen Gilbert), and it was her that had a daughter Mary, it would explain why Stephen referred to a niece Minnie Weir in his will when he died in 1902.
[I feel bad for hijacking this thread- maybe I should make my own??]
-
You can use 'report to moderator' to ask for the last bit of this topic to be split into a separate thread (and moved to Ireland General board since there are several counties involved).
Stephen Gilbert (son of Stephen) m.1857 Lurgan district to Sarah Ann Bell (daughter of Edward).
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FGCN-NZ3
Stephen (d.1902) Gilbert's Will mentions lots of relatives which should make drawing out a family tree much easier- wife Sarah Ann; sister Margaret Ann Rountree in N.Z.; nieces: Annie Price, Mary Gilbert, Geanie Gilbert, Ealenor Gilbert; nephew Edward Gilbert's sons, N.Z.; nephews: William Gilbert, Stephen Gilbert, Henry Gilbert; executors William Gilbert, merchant, Belfast & Jonathan Gilbert, farmer, Aghagallon.
As the family seem to be Methodist (Stephen's Will mentioned a bequest to Moira Circuit) keep an eye out for other Gilberts who were Methodist.
-
P R O N I Will
William John Gilbert died 6 aug 1880 left his house and lands on Antrim rd known as 9 Castleton?Park to beloved wife Ellen Orr. value 10,349pds 15s 2d. no children mentioned.
dont know if this is your sarah?
1901 census of Carleton st Portadown,Armagh
Mary Elizabeth Weir age 22 national teacher head,
Sara Gilbert Weir age 21 sister, bookkeeper/typist both Methodist
-
William John Gilbert died 1880 (father- Stephen) m.(1851) Ellen Catherine Killen died after 1880 (father- Edward).
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FGCQ-WLL
Children of William John Gilbert & Ellen Orr Killen-
Jane McCausland Gilbert (c1860-1908)
“Probate of the Will of Jane McCausland Gilbert late of 2 Sandown park Knock Belfast Spinster who died 26 July 1908 at Portstewart County Londonderry granted at Belfast to William Gilbert Merchant and Thomas Stephen Gilbert Civil Engineer.”
Ellenor/Eleanor (1866) https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FR4Q-CFP
1911- www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Down/Victoria__part_of_/Irwin_Avenue/230849
Died 1930 Canada- https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FLG6-7LN
“Gilbert Eleanor of Landsdown Road Uplands Victoria British Columbia Canada spinster died 30 August 1930 Probate Belfast 5 May to Thomas Young Ekin seed merchant. Effects £450.”
(male) Gilbert (1869) https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FPDV-FRD
Henry Gilbert (1870) https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FPR4-GFX
1901- Henry Gilbert (30), sisters Jane M (41) & Eleanor (33), niece Eleanor Mary (5)
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Carrickfergus_Rural/West_Division/992260
Online family tree (with mistakes) gives details on the family, including Mary/Minnie born c1858.
-
Thanks MF Gilbert, good luck with your search. Yes it's hard to find details if you don't have the initial little bits of vital info, but it looks like the you might have some luck with the replies people have already posted for you. If I come across anything I will post it here for you. Best of luck searching charles girl.
-
Thanks charles girl. Yes, these posts have been very useful. I've made my own thread to figure out the various details I was struggling with, so that I don't continue to clog up your thread:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=660453.msg5061882#msg5061882
It turns out the will that caused all the confusion actually mentions Minnie Weir as well as a Mary Gilbert, so there was two of them. I'll let you know if I find out a few more details of the Weirs, just in case you one day find a link to Minnie.
-
Hi
I'm looking at a certificate of marriage of my great grandmother. Her name was
Rachel Weir and she married Robert Watters on 14 May 1892 at St Anne's Parish Church, Belfast, the signature of the witnesses are Hugh McCullough and Lizzie Weir.
My grandmother was Rachel Watters and she married George Bruce. They lived in 29 Foreman Street, Shankill area, Belfast.
Hope this is helpful.
-
Hi Anita
Thanks for sharing your information on your great grandmother. My mum (who is 89) feels the name Watters is familar for her great aunt that lived off the Shankill Rd. This aunt had two children a daughter and son. The daughter was oldest child. Mum has always thought that her grandmother Elizabeth Weir might not have been married and that when she died she was in her 70's however her death cert has her at just 60. Both mum's mum Elizabeth Weir (known as Sisssy) and her grandmother Elizabeth Weir (known as Lizzie) never spoke of her grandfather who on the marriage cert and Lizzie's death cert has his name being James Weir. I haven't any hard evidence that he exsisted or if my great, grandmother Elizabeth Lizzie Weir had my grandmother Elizabeth Sissy Weir out of wedlock. My grandmother Sissy always said she was born in Dundalk. When my great, grandmother Lizzie passed away 1937, mum went with her mother (Sissy) to this aunt's house off the shankill rd to let her know. Mum says this woman was a not that tall and carried alittle bit of weight. Mum says this lady lived in a house that was well decorated and that she kept pigs. They were presbyterian. Mum says she never remembers her grandmother (Lizzie) wearing a wedding ring, but was very religious. There was only one photo of my grandmother (Sissy) which got destroyed in the fire that burnt the family home down in Connaught Street, Belfast in the early 1970's. She was dressed in long black skirt, white frilly blouse and big bow in her hair. There was no photos of my great, great grandmother Lizzie but she kept her long hair up until she died in a bun. There is a 1911 census record with people fitting what could be a connection but because I can't find solid evidence that this is them I can only speculate till I can prove this. Will keep you posted if I can find anymore information. Charmaine
-
Posting this to see if anyone can debunk it. Coming at this from a different angle, I looked for a child called Elizabeth (or variants) with a father called James and a mother with the surname Weir. I happened across an Elizabeth Hutchinson who was born on 23 May 1902, the key pieces of information being that father James Hutchinson was a signalman, mother's name was Lizzie Weir, and the address was 10 Capstone Street, Belfast.
Firstly, I have been unable to find a James Hutchinson marriage to an Elizabeth (or variants) Weir. Secondly, the closest James Hutchinson (a signalman) I can find in the 1901 census is this one in Symons Street, Belfast, he was married to Jemima Rainey in Armagh in 1879:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Saint_Anne_s_Ward_Belfast/Symons_Street/953885/
The 1901 census offers up no immediate clues regarding 10 Capstone Street, the residents are a Robert Gillian/Gillan and Lizzie McCollum, the 1901 street directory confirms their residence at number 10:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Windsor/Capstone_Street/965737/
Is Elizabeth Weir properly Elizabeth Hutchinson, illegitimate child of signalman James? Can anyone with fresh eyes eliminate this from the running?
Edited to add: BTW, note that James Hutchinson and family in the 1911 census are living near Dundalk:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Louth/Dundalk_Rural/Marshes_Upper/577761/
Could this have got mixed up in family anecdote and explain why it is thought that Elizabeth could have been born in Dundalk?
-
Just to note, Belfast City Council has burial records which might indicate that James and Jemima Hutchinson returned to Belfast, last residence 97 Omeath Street in East Belfast:
https://ssl.belfastcity.gov.uk/burialsearch/burialSearch.aspx
However, while the names and ages are in the ballpark, the will calendar index entries refer to James being a builder / driller, so I would keep an open mind on them:
Hutchinson Jemima of 97 Omeath Street Belfast married woman died 9 January 1933 Probate Belfast 1 September to James Hutchinson retired builder. Effects £314 13s. 1d.
Hutchinson James of 97 Omeath Street Belfast retired driller died 11 January 1940 Administration W/A Belfast 14 February to Annie Lamb widow. Effects £595 7s. 11d.
-
Hi there, why is this in "Antrim Completed Look up Requests" where it is unlikely to receive the optimal viewership?
-
because it's an old post from 2013 that has been resurrected by Anita Downey
-
Thanks for this, what I was trying to understand from the OP, is why it is marked as completed (presumably they requested it so) since they don't yet have a definitive answer to their original query. It was by pure chance that I was logged in at the right time to pick this up in the list of latest topic posts on the home page and was able to post a new lead which may or may not be fruitful. While I would routinely look at the Antrim Board (and other Irish Boards) to assist folk, I would never routinely look at completed requests.
-
Att Anita Downey. I tried to send you a pm but your inbox is full.
Just wanted to let you know after much research, it does appear we are related Rachel Weir was my great grandmother's sister. The Lizzie Weir on your great, great grandmother's marriage cert is my great grandmother Elizabeth Weir.
If you are interested in any more information just pm me.
Kind regards Charmaine.
-
Att Anita Downey. I tried to send you a pm but your inbox is full.
Just wanted to let you know after much research, it does appear we are related Rachel Weir was my great grandmother's sister. The Lizzie Weir on your great, great grandmother's marriage cert is my great grandmother Elizabeth Weir.
If you are interested in any more information just pm me.
Kind regards Charmaine.
Anita only made that one post so isn't able to use Personal Message system yet (that's why you got the inbox is full message). Best wishes, aghadowey