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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: knbkms on Friday 30 August 13 22:53 BST (UK)
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Is there anyone that can possibly help to knock down this enormous brickwall that I have spent 2 years chewing over.
Basically can anyone find out anything more about the above Frederick Gutrolf/Gutrolg
I have a marriage 30th Sept 1883 to the above Matilda Julia Lawrence at Bethnal Green,
His father was George Adam Gutrolf, deceased at time of wedding. Fredericks occ then was baker.
He comes from Germany on one census ~ Ohio, Cleveland on the other (1891)
In 1891 he is living at 41 Griffin Street with Matilda, he is now a gen lab.
And then he disappears ....... no death, no travel, no census records, nothing. Can anyone please tell me anything more about him .......
With many thanks and much appreciation
Kim
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Does Matilda also disappear or is she on later censuses?
If she is - what is her marital status
What is his birthyear?
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I've found the 1891 as Gutrolg and she is Mathilda. Marriage cert shows her as Matilda Lawrence
Both aged 31 - she was b Deptford.
No children at that time
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You say 'he' disappears after 1891 but I can't see any further trace of her either!
Either he changed or anglicised his surname or they left the UK.
Annette
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Well I have a theory, I think that Matilda is the Matilda that went on to have two children with my great grandfather, they classed themselves as married but there is absolutely no evidence anywhere of a marriage so I am wondering that perhaps they couldn't marry because legally she was still married to Frederick. That's why I am going down this road, of trying to solve where he went so that I can work out whether Matilda and Frederick stayed together. I looked for evidence of leaving the country, nothing!!!!!!!!
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Those facts are always very possible -- but can you tell us how you have adopted this particular Matilda as the one who hooked up with great-grandpa? ;)
I know the process well, having figured out that my gr-grfather did a name shift in the late 1870s, when I found that he did not exist before his 1883 marriage (and a possible sighting in the 1881 that turned out to be correct) ... but somebody with the same given names was born right when and where gr-grf claimed to have been, and disappeared right before gr-grf appeared.
It's a matter of ruling out at both ends -- did Matilda Julia Lawrence Gutrolf cease to exist after Point X, but also, did other Matilda never exist before Point X.
You may not want to name names, but if you do, it would help to give the info on Matilda the second, as well.
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I have spent months on this particular part of my tree, and I have eliminated most other Matilda Lawrences/Laurences that popped up when looking for mine. The problem is that I cant even eliminate this one because they do both, totally disappear after that 1891 census. No Mathilda Gutrolf/Gutrolg is anywhere, no children were born, no death, no travelling, nothing .... and add to the mix that My Matilda, who I know for sure was my great great grandmother had two children with my GGGrandfather, William Henry Pratt, and her name is quite clear on both their birth certificates, and on workhouse records, and her death in 1922 ........ but no marriage is to be found for them, on the 1911 census, when the entire family were in a workhouse in Dartford, she is stated as Matilda Julia Laurence, then Pratt added .... and "S" in her marital status, then crossed out and the "M" added ...... so I really don't think they married. I think they were a "rough" family, obviously very poor, and lived in the slummiest of "Sutton-AT-Hone" Swanley, and then the really "bad" parts of Deptford when they moved back. I would so love to crack this, and actually don't think I will ever manage it, so far no stone has been left unturned and I don't think there is any other avenues. My post on here was a desperate one!!
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The 1891 entry for Matilda Gutrolg shows her birthyear as 1860 and birthplace Deptford
Matilda Lawrence Pratt is shown as b 1872 Deptford
The 1883 marriage cert shows her father as Thomas Street Lawrence occ caulker and there is a baptism for a Matilda Julia Lawrence on 29.1.1858 at St Pauls Deptford - parents Thomas Edmund Lawrence - ship caulker and Susan Jane
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You've seen this entry for Fred Gutroll in the 1880 US census?
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/MWF3-2WY
Ewington, Dauphin Co, Pennsylvania, USA
Aged 21 (c1859)
Born in Germany, parents born in Germany
Works at S. Works
(I don't have paid access to I don't know what the image says)
Several other men who seem to be boarders also all work at "S. Works".
Oh duh, Pennsylvania, this would be Steel Works.
Your Fred was in the 1881 UK census, so that would have been a quick move, but there is certainly a strong resemblance.
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Think I may possibly have identified your Matilda who was with William Henry Pratt but before I type out this complicated family can you first please confirm the following:
1. What is the exact name given for Matilda on her 2 childrens birth certificates?
2. Is Matilda the Matilda Pratt bc.1871 who died Sept.qtr.1922 Greenwich (which covered Deptford when William and she were living at 59 Hales Street per electoral roll)?
Annette
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Dear Annette,
Yes that's the one, On her childrens birth certificate she gives her name as Matilda Julia Pratt, formerly Laurence .......
Many thanks
Kim
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Well that puts a spanner in the works! I'll explain why.
On the 1918 and 1919 electoral rolls Matilda is listed with William Henry Pratt as Matilda Jane Pratt at 59 Hales Street, Deptford. I, therefore, looked for a Matilda Jane Lawrence/Laurence born Deptford and found one that fits almost to a 't'.
So this begs the question - why would she be Matilda Jane on the electoral roll and Matilda Julia on her childrens birth certificates??
I can let you know all that I found but it's for a Matilda Jane, as on the electoral roll.
Annette
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This was an era when quite a few women decided to fancy up their names. My grandmother, who married in 1918, was made to call herself Lilian rather than Lily, her real name, by her husband, who considered "Lily" too common for him. (He was marrying down, doncha know.)
I untangled someone's grandmother at another site a while back who was known to her family as Kathleen Marion, but turned out to have been born as plain old Kate Mary. ;)
Remember that while Lily and Kate may seem very modern to us, they were olde-fashioned at the time!
So it's quite possible that Matilda Jane decided she would rather be Matilda Julia, and called herself that on all but the most official occasions.
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By the way, in 1911 she is listed as Matilda Lawrence Pratt (no Julia).
Annette
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Just going back to that 1883 marriage showing father as Thomas Street Lawrence -- maybe we can trace that Matilda a little that way.
"The 1883 marriage cert shows her father as Thomas Street Lawrence occ caulker and there is a baptism for a Matilda Julia Lawrence on 29.1.1858 at St Pauls Deptford - parents Thomas Edmund Lawrence - ship caulker and Susan Jane"
Thomas Street Lawrence aged 57 (c1814), death reg in Greenwich reg dist in June Q 1871.
A Thomas Street Lawrence birth was reg in Greenwich reg dist in Sep Q 1872 (too late to be his child), and he married in Stepney reg dist in June Q 1898. FS shows baptism Sep 1872, parents John Willm Lawrence and Isabel.
Interestingly, Thomas Street Lawrence the elder had a daughter named Julia Jane Lawrence baptised 1835 in Deptford, mother Matilda Elizabeth.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NLR5-5QM
Could Matilda baptised in 1858 actually have been a daughter of that unmarried Julia Jane? It is not at all unheard of for children of unmarried parents to name their maternal grandfather as their father when they married, to avoid acknowledging their status, or to recognize their grandfather's role in their upbringing. Could the younger Thomas Street Lawrence also have been a child of hers? In 1911 he is in Limehouse.
The names certainly seem to fit, to some extent: Julia and Jane, and an older generation Matilda. Again, it was very common for unmarried women to name their daughter for their mother.
Thomas Street Lawrence and wife Matilda Elizabeth also had children James, Edmund Peter, Henry, William Henry, Thomas Edmund (1831), Matilda Mary Ann (1833), Matilda Elizabeth (1851). So it looks like maybe Thomas Street L was named as father on the marriage certificate, and his son Thomas Edmund L was named as father on the baptism. But who is Susan Jane on the baptism ...
Julia Jane Lawrence 1835 may have married in Lewisham in 1860, to Henry Goodchild or Henry John Saltwell. Per the 1861, Henry Goodchild married Eliza Jane (Seedman), so it was Saltwell. Here they are in 1861 as Sattwell, per Anc'y, in Deptford. No children with them.
Thomas E Lawrence, a shipwright, is in the 1861 census in Deptford with wife Susan J and daughter Susan J, aged 3. That has to be the Matilda baptised in 1858. But aargh, the only related looking birth is Susan Jane Harris Lawrence in Greenwich reg dist in 1854 ... and I looked at that one a little yesterday ... Son Harry in the 1861 was registered as Harry Lawrence in 1860 in Greenwich. FS shows the couple also baptising Mary Jane in 1856 and Thomas in 1865. Edit - and also Susan Jane Harris Lawrence born 12 July 1854, baptised 24 December 1854, daughter of Thomas Edward and Susan Jane -- and death reg Mar Q 1856.
I think the thing may be that Thomas Edmund and Susan Jane were not actually married. In 1871, Susan is shown as born in Brixham, Devon. And sure enough, there in 1851 is Susan Jane Harris (Harris being a name given to the first child in 1854), c1832, in Deptford, born in Brixham -- father a shipwright. I don't see a previous marriage for either Thomas or Jane, though. (Also don't see Matilda's birth reg as Harris, just in case.)
In 1871, the same child of Thomas (a wood caulker) and Susan Lawrence, aged 12, is called ... anybody's guess. Anc'y has it as Amma. It may be Susan.
In any case, that really has to be the Matilda baptised in 1858.
Yes indeed. In 1881, the family is visiting a Mr. Humphries in Deptford -- and the daughter is now Matilda, aged 23, occupation general servant.
So that, if you will excuse my wandering a little, is the backstory for Matilda who married Fred!
Baptised in 1858, daughter of Thomas Edmund Lawrence and Susan Jane Unknown (oops, now known to be Harris), called Susan in her first two censuses 1861 and 1871, and a general servant under the name Matilda Lawrence in 1881.
The Julia/Jane confusion would fit with this person, since she was baptised Matilda Julia, but seems to be been a "Jr." of her mother for the first part of her life, her mother being Susan Jane -- and she also had an aunt named Julia Jane.
Per the baptism record, she was born 10 Jan 1858. Could her birth be one of, in Mar Q 1858 in Greenwich reg dist, Blanche Julia Lawrence or Susannah Lawrence? ... But Blanche Julia died in Jun Q 1859. Susannah could be the Susan who died in Sep Q 1859; I don't see her otherwise in 1861.
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Thank you all for all this information, I am going to print it off tomorrow and read it through thoroughly, and try and unravel it..... will let you know what I think. Thanks again, it is much appreciated
Kim
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Annette, also, I have never found any electoral records that you come across, would it be possible for you to perhaps copy them and send them to me via email or something, I would greatly appreciate it
many thanks
Kim
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The dilemma here is are we searching for a Matilda Julia Lawrence/Laurence or a Matilda Jane. The lady in question having used both names - Matilda Julia on her childrens birth certificates, but Matilda Jane on electoral roll. As JaneyCanuck has explored the 'Julia' aspect, I'll list my 'Jane' findings.
Matilda's death is recorded as plain Matilda bc.1872, d.1922 - she is Matilda Jane on 1918 and 1919 electoral rolls.
In 1911 she is Matilda Lawrence Pratt bc.1872 Deptford (husband WH shown bc.1869 Deptford)
In 1901 she is shown as Lilly (?) Pratt bc.1864 Deptford (husband shown bc.1862 Deptford) with 2 children - William aged 2 and Lilly 10 mos. (?-hard to read).
So far, the records would suggest that she was Matilda Jane Lawrence born sometime between 1864-1872 Deptford.
A Matilda Jane Lawrence b.25/8/1868, bp.14/9/1868 Deptford, dau. of William Alfred Lawrence and Maria of 3 Faireys (or Farleys?) Buildings.
William Alfred Lawrence married Maria Chappell 16/6/1862 St. Nicholas, Deptford.
1871 Census - 16 Greenfield Street (?) Deptford, London - ref. RG10-745-68-24
William Laurence 30 Deal (?) Porter b. St. Pauls, Deptford
Mary Ann (?) Laurence 28 b. Sheerness, Kent
John Laurence 9 b. Deptford
Emma Laurence 7 ditto
Mary Ann Laurence 5 ditto
Tilly Laurence 2 ditto
Two further children born between 1871 and 1881 and by 1881 William is a widower, Maria Lawrence bc.1843 d.Mar.qtr.1878 Greenwich (which covered Deptford).
1881 - 19 Canal Row, Deptford, London - ref. RG11 - 706 - 100 - 22
William Lawrence 52 (??) Wood Cutter b. Deptford
John Lawrence 20 ditto
Mary A. Lawrence 15 ditto
Kate Lawrence 7 ditto
Lizzey Lawrence 5 ditto
(The 2 children missing are Emma, a servant elsewhere in Deptford, and Matilda who's a servant in Hackney.
William Alfred Lawrence and Maria Chappell had 6 children - can't find a baptism for eldest child John, but the others are:
Emma Maria bp.5/8/1863 Deptford, dau. of William John (??) Lawrence and Maria, of No.6 Bridge House.
Mary Ann - bc.1855 but not baptised until 25/4/1869 Deptford, dau. of William Lawrence and Maria of Faireys (??) Buildings.
Matilda Jane - b. & bp.1868 as detailed above.
Catherine Phoebe bp.17/8/1873 Deptford, dau. of William Alfred Lawrence and Maria of 19 Black Horse Fields.
Elizabeth bp.16/1/1876 Deptford, dau. of William Alfred Lawrence and Maria of 19 Black Horse Fields
So, in 1871 Matilda Jane appears as 'Tilly', 1881 - just 12 years old and a servant in Hackney. Cannot locate her in 1891 and thereafter is well-known albeit on one type of record she is Matilda Julia and on another Matilda Jane. (There is no marriage or death entry for Matilda Jane b.1868 Deptford hence my conclusion that it is this Matilda who is the Matilda who was with William Henry Pratt as she appears with him as Matilda Jane in 1918 and 1919.)
Therefore, Kim, you can now have 2 different scenarios to study. I'm beginning to dislike Matilda as she can't decide if her second name is Julia or Jane and most unhelpfully doesn't actually marry William Henry Pratt! Certainly she seems to have been born in Deptford between 1864 and 1872 - at no time does she seem to have been born before this period.
Annette
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Kim - if you can PM me your email address I will forward them to you.
Annette
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I like Tilly/Lilly for the job too at first glance, anyway -- I didn't mean to be adopting Matilda Julia who married Fred, just to sort her out so we could take a good look at her. ;)
(I just don't always rely on census or death ages, since a woman older than her husband was often wont to make major adjustments to her age.)
How about the "Lilly" in 1901 is really a contemporary misreading of the more unusual "Tilly"? What was the infant daughter Lilly Pratt's name, in fact?
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Dear Janey,
The daughter is actually another Matilda, born in Addey Street, Deptford on 23rd May 1898. And also incidentaly whilst checking these records, I noticed that on this birth certificate the mother is stated as Matilda Pratt, formerly Lawrence, but on the sons birth certificate she is down as Matilda Julia Pratt formerly Lawrence. They moved from Deptford down to Sutton at Hone Swanley by the time the son, William Henry was born (11.05.1900), where they spent some years in a workhouse before coming back up to Deptford. There is a baptism record for William Henry in Crockenhill, but I could find no trace of a baptism for Matilda.
Kim