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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Catrina on Sunday 25 August 13 07:10 BST (UK)
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Hello all
I was pointed in the direction of Lincolnshire a long time ago for the birth of this William Searby.
But having checked Parishes and Towns I am unable to find anything like this. A definite ascender and descender unless that is just one word.
Any help appreciated thank you
Regards, Kate
(Sydney, Australia
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Could it be Holford? :-\ If so, then that is in Somerset.
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You don't give any kind of date for William - but you can always check out Holford baptisms 1714 - 1850 via the Somerset pages of GENUKI, as they have been transcribed, along with marriages and burials.
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It doesn't appear to be so as on other part of document the F is very definite having both ascender and descender. But I will bear in mind what you have said about births, it was 1841.
In my first post I meant "could it be one letter" not one word, sorry about that.
Kate
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Have you found him on any census?
1851 onwards gives a place of birth!
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Looks like Holford to me.
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Is William the son of George and Ann Searby, living in 1851 in Huttoft? If so, then it is said that he was born in Goulceby, which comes under the Registration District of Horncastle, where there is a birth registration in June quarter 1841 of a William Searby. If this is the right family, then the other children are said to be born in Huttoft.
According to GENUKI, Huttoft is 5 miles from ALFORD :-\
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I thank you all for trying.
We have already found that couple and for want of any proof have at this point dismissed them or at least put them to one side.
In this new document William is the father of three children born in USA and three in Australia the last being the one referred to now. I hoped it would show his place of birth, I'm wishing William had been the Informant instead of his wife, that would have made things clearer.
Kate
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Kate,
May I please ask when did William arrive in Australia? Have you checked for his 'Native Place' on the passenger list?
Cheers JM
I thank you all for trying.
We have already found that couple and for want of any proof have at this point dismissed them or at least put them to one side.
In this new document William is the father of three children born in USA and three in Australia the last being the one referred to now. I hoped it would show his place of birth, I'm wishing William had been the Informant instead of his wife, that would have made things clearer.
Kate
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Unfortunately it doesn't give that information just that the Ship departed Plymouth.
Only details on Manifest ages, children, sex, how many.
Kate
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So, let me just try to get this right in my head ;D ;D
William is born in Lincolnshire in 1841. He marries, somewhere, has 3 children born in America, and then 3 further children born in Australia. He leaves for Australia from Plymouth. Have I got this right?
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Frustrating isn't it?
I got William's Death certificate in 1970, it stated he was born Lincolnshire, parents William Searby, M N Bruchmann, many people have looked for them believe me but to no avail.
Also that he married in New York had three children there returned briefly to England then came to Aus arriving 1876, then had three more children.
Every certificate tells me something different. The Informant for his Death cert. was an Agent for the Undertaker.
Please don't stress over this, it's been driving me nuts for years but maybe one day with the moon in the right quarter etc.
Kate
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Frustrating isn't it?
I got William's Death certificate in 1970, it stated he was born Lincolnshire, parents William Searby, M N Bruchmann, many people have looked for them believe me but to no avail.
So who is Marion Manning? ???
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Maria Mannion (Manion, Manning) is William's wife.
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So William, who died 1970 and born in Lincolnshire, is the son of William Searby and ?Bruchmann - is that right?
If he died in 1970 then he was well over 100 years old!!! :o Or am I missing something somewhere? Have we, in fact, got two William Searby - one born in Lincolnshire in 1841, son of ?? and ?? and another one born somewhere else, who died in 1970, son of William and ? Bruchmann?
And which William are we talking about whose wife is Maria Mannion?
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No I "bought" William's Death certificate 1970, he was born 1841 died 1916. His parents those I have given you and he was supposedly born Lincolnshire.
He married Maria Mannion in New York, all this according to that certificate.
The one we are looking at now, to try to figure out where he was born, is the birth of his youngest girl child 1881.
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mWhich Australian port for arrival of which ship please...
Re the snip in your OP ... Do you HAve the birth cert handy ...if so re Williiam and his wife what does cert record for
When and where they married .
Their ages when this baby was being registered
Williams occupation and usual address
When baby born ...year at least
Australia has eight different BDM systems and each system has different depth of detail. NSW VIC WA QLD are as good or better than Scotland for depth of detail
Cheers JM
Unfortunately it doesn't give that information just that the Ship departed Plymouth.
Only details on Manifest ages, children, sex, how many.
Kate
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So, is this your man?
William George Searby, born c1841 Lincolnshire
Married Maria Manion, 1870, New York
Travelled to Australia, c1876?
Children: Charles, James, Julius (presumably the US born children)
William George (1870), Peter Paul (1878), Mary Ellen (1880)
Parents: William Searby & Mary Maria Bruchmann
Wife: Maria Manion, born c1840, Galway, Ireland.
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And the informant was recorded as an agent of the Undertaker... I find info on a death rego is not usually as reliable as say the first hand info given when registering a birth...
Have you checked TROVE digitised newspapers 1916 for Obit or the State Archives for any Probate Packet or Will... If NSW death a probate packet can include many BDM original certs used as evidence at NSW Supreme Court to PROVE eligibility to inherit
Cheers JM
No I "bought" William's Death certificate 1970, he was born 1841 died 1916. His parents those I have given you and he was supposedly born Lincolnshire.
He married Maria Mannion in New York, all this according to that certificate.
The one we are looking at now, to try to figure out where he was born, is the birth of his youngest girl child 1881.
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I Agree, that's why I bought the Birth Certificate, to get the information straight from the horse's mouth, so to speak.
I have searched everywhere and as for a Will, not a chance.
Many thanks to all, I appreciate your input.
Regards, Kate
(Sydney, Austraila)
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Please type up the info on the birth cert ... I am happy to search through my offline NSW resources. I know of quite a few Aussie RChatters who have offline resources for the other States/Colonies.
Have you considered asking for help on the Aussie Board
Cheers JM
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Thanks JM but it's not Aussie stuff I need it's the name of the place he was born on this birth certificate I put online.
Kate
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Thank you all very much, I'm very grateful for your efforts but I forget to eat when I'm doing this and I am STARVING, I have to stop and eat.
Regards Kate
(Sydney, Australia)
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Yes I realise that ... BUT on that birth cert what does it say about
where he married
when he married
what was his occupation
what age at birth of the baby
With that detail then a search can be made to find that marriage and thus what info on that doc re his birthplace ...
marriage info is first hand.
the info on that birth about William is second hand.
May I also note there is a commercial website with images from passenger lists into several Australian ports.
Cheers JM
Thanks JM but it's not Aussie stuff I need it's the name of the place he was born on this birth certificate I put online.
Kate
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OK - do you have any other documentary evidence regarding the birthplace of William Searby?
From FreeBMD I can find only two instances of a birth in the name of William Searby being registered in the period January 1840 - December 1841 - both are within Registration Districts covering Lincolnshire - March quarter 1840 in Spilsby, and June quarter 1841 in Horncastle District, although of course there are other forenames registered within the period. This in itself is not conclusive since, unfortunately, it was not obligatory to register a birth until 1870's ???
Again, from FreeBMD I cannot see any marriage for William Searby anywhere in England or Wales during the period July 1837 to December 1841. Therefore we must assume that William (Senior) married prior to the introduction of Civil Registration on 1 July 1837.
The 1851 census shows two instances of a William Searby having been born in the period 1840 - 1841. Both are in Lincolnshire, and both have a father named George. The 1841 birth year is the son of George and Ann, and was born in Goulceby (in Horncastle Registration District) and living in Huttoft, and the other is the son of George and Elizabeth born in Bolingbroke (in Spilsby Registration District) and living in Chelsea. The 1841 shows George, Elizabeth and William living in Bolingbroke.
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The 1841 registered William Searby was baptised 4 July 1841 at All Saints, Goulceby, the son of George (a labourer) and Ellen Searby. I'm assuming that Ellen dies, as George marries Ann Mason in 1847.
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Have you considered re-purchasing that 1916 certificate. NSW BDM updated their equipment several times since 1970 when you purchased it. You will have noticed some of the changes when you received the 1881birth cert.
May I ask which office issued the document in 1970.. Was it a local BDM office or the Sydney HQ for BDM or the local Titles Office or.... perhaps even a Court HOuse...
Cheers JM.
No I "bought" William's Death certificate 1970, he was born 1841 died 1916. His parents those I have given you and he was supposedly born Lincolnshire.
He married Maria Mannion in New York, all this according to that certificate.
The one we are looking at now, to try to figure out where he was born, is the birth of his youngest girl child 1881.
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http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/70008601 Williamstown Chronicle 1 Dec 1883. (Victoria, Aust) A missing man named as William Searby.
Would he be Mary Ellen SEARBY's Dad? Her birth was registered in 1881, with the BDM online index showing her parents as William Searby and Maria Manning, at Hotham. (Vic # 24218)
Does that birth cert confirm that Mary Ellen has older siblings, if so, does it give their names and ages? I am asking this simply so that RChatters can help you find clues to your elusive William Searby. :)
Is this the death for William in 1916?
The ONLINE index shows Wm Searby, at Northcote, Victoria at age of 82 with his parents recorded as Wm Searby and Mary Bruchmann. (#15691) .... 1916 - 82 gives a slightly early birth year .... sadly it takes it back BEFORE civil registration, so perhaps a different search needs to be done .... a search for a possible baptism :) .
Cheers, JM
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I can see a William SEAR aged 40 as a passenger arriving January 1876 ex the Somersetshire, into Victoria... :) on the PROV indexes
http://prov.vic.gov.au/provguide-50
Cheers, JM
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The death certificate 1916 was issued from the Victorian Registrars Office.
I don't know about the missing William Searby, could have been anybody but the Death at Northcote is certainly William's.
I am taking William's age from the passenger list when he arrived in Australia, the Manifest was drawn up July 1876, ship arrived Oct. His age was 35 so, born 1841, if he had a birthday after July the he would have been b 1840.
I'm supposing he would have a better knowledge of his age than the Undertaker's Agent 40 years later.
The extract I put online with my first post is Mary Ellen's Birth and as William was her father that's why we are trying to understand the writing of the name place where William was born.
The full certificate is on
http://s1235.photobucket.com/user/Catrina39/library/?sort=3&page=1
You are spending a lot of time on this and I appreciate it but I have already done all the normal things one does, looked at all the websites one searches, I've been doing this for years that' why it's so frustrating.
This is the "only" certificate with full information supplied by one of the parents.
I don't yet know what information is supplied on USA Marriage certificates, I have to suss that out.
Regards, Kate
(Sydney, Australia)
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Did you notice that on that Victoria Australia birth cert that Maria did NOT know when she married William Searby, (not even a year) but she did advise the registrar that she was married in Pennsylvania ;D
Fingers crossed that will help a tad :) (I cannot decipher the tiny writing at bottom right outside the margin as my current video card in this puter is not quite up to scratch :-X at the mo :-X Shhh.... my OH updated a driver and now it is .... errr .... not as good as previously :-X )
I have seven generations of ancestors in NSW records, so I know how difficult it can be to find the tiny detail to unlock the hurdle to get past the brickwall too :)
Cheers, JM
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There's been lots of discussion over the years about the 'accuracy' of the age of the passengers on those manifest lists.... General consensus seems to be "not as accurate as ought to be" .... so I would not be placing too much reliance on the age on the manifest.
Cheers, JM
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Yes, OH's can do that, not that I have one but have lots of siblings with one (or more)
One would have thought Maria could have had a stab at the Marriage date, I mean if one married a year prior to or after birth of first child.
I have gone right back to the early 18th century with three of my ancestors and with lots of personal information about some of them. Always easier to trace if they had money.
The Searby's have been the bane of my life.
Thanks for your help.
Kate
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Just wondering whether you have any of the other children's birth certificates? US ones may be more difficult to obtain, but how about one of the other two born in Australia. Did William register their births? If so then we might have a second chance at finding where he came from.
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Unfortunately the other two were born in South Australia they had terrible records, only give parents names, father's occupation.
Kate
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Not a lot we can do then :'(
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No, but you all tried very hard and I thank everyone who offered assistance.
Regards, Kate
(Sydney, Australia)
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There is a christening of a William searby July 1841 goulceby parish of huttoft father George mother Ellen. Who do you have as his wife?
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Have noted that one but no proof yet as to William's parents, so still only guessing. :'(
Kate
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Hang on a minute ;D You said that his death certificate states that his parents were William Searby and Mary Maria Bruchmann :-\ I've just had a look on FreeREG where most of the Lincolnshire parishes have been transcribed, and there is no marriage for anyone called Bruchmann listed. Not conclusive, obviously.
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Just to keep everyone up-to-date!!
From FreeBMD - covering England and Wales from 1 July 1837
First instance of a marriage for the surname BRUCHMANN = 1894
First instance of a marriage for WILLIAM SEARBY = 1847
There are no instances of a marriage between SEARBY and MARY MARIA
ADDED
First instance of a birth for WILLIAM SEARBY is 1838
First instance of birth for BRUCHMANN is 1866
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May I ask how would 'Huttoft' be heard and then written in 1881 by a clerk in Victoria if an Irishwoman pronounced it as the birthplace of her husband? Clerk cannot check spelling with the informant as she can make her mark rather than sign her name. Would clerk scrawl 'Holford'
Cheers JM.
There is a christening of a William searby July 1841 goulceby parish of huttoft father George mother Ellen. Who do you have as his wife?
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Seztratt found him Kate ... I am quietly confident ... look ..... naming pattern in the children and this next is icing on cake:
ALFORD .... V Holford .... Alford is market town for Huttoft.
Done and Dusted
Cheers JM.
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m
Seztratt found him Kate ... I am quietly confident ... look ..... naming pattern in the children and this next is icing on cake:
ALFORD .... V Holford .... Alford is market town for Huttoft.
Done and Dusted
Cheers JM.
As I pointed out in Answer #6 Alford is 5 miles from Huttoft ;D ;D But Kate insists that William is son of William Searby and Mary Maria Bruchmann :-\ And William baptised at Goulceby is the son of George and Ellen. :-\ Hey ho!!!
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My apologies in advance for this BUT 8) I'm hoping that you have not taken too much notice of the various trees shown on Ancestry, which may or may not be correct.
You must take note ONLY of the documentary evidence that you have in your possession.
From Mary Ellen's birth registration in November 1881 we have the following siblings:
George William - 12 (1869)
Joseph - 10 (1871)
Charles - 7 (1874)
Lewis - 5 (1876)
and Peter - 3 (1878)
Maria (Manning) also states that she does not know the date of her marriage to William, other than it took place in Pennsylvania. In 1881 she is 35 and from Ireland, William is 40 from England.
SO - where do the names of William Searby and Mary Maria Bruchmann come from? Also I'd be interested to know the names of the children who accompanied William and Maria to Australia from Plymouth in 1876 - do they tie in with the names of the children quoted on Mary Ellen's birth registration? (I don't have full access to Ancestry - just the UK records so I can't check for myself). What other information is given on the passenger lists - ages, etc. etc.
Again, very sorry for being a pain ;D :P :-*
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Can I ask a question?
Do the records state that Maria Manning married in Pennsylvania U.S.A., or just Pennsylvania?
The reason I ask is that there is a village in Gloucestershire called . . . . Pennsylvania!
Also a suburb of Exeter, Devon!
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I don't know if the first record(s) are relevant or known,but on FamilySearch there is a record for William Searby born 1840 Lincolnshire in prison in Dublin.One variant of the record has him in a female prison(!)and there is a slightly later record of a Mary Manning(only 15 in 1864?) in the same prison.There are a number of other variants on the name and age that look like different people.
Of more direct relevance there is a Latinised(presumably Catholic) christening record for Carolum(Charles) parents Gulielmo(William) Serby and Maria Manning 1874 in Buffalo,Erie,New York
Regards
Roger
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I'm going to leave Kate to answer these questions - after all, it's her family!! But looks very interesting :) :)
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Can I ask a question?
Do the records state that Maria Manning married in Pennsylvania U.S.A., or just Pennsylvania?
The reason I ask is that there is a village in Gloucestershire called . . . . Pennsylvania!
Also a suburb of Exeter, Devon!
The full certificate is on
http://s1235.photobucket.com/user/Catrina39/library/?sort=3&page=1
Did you notice that on that Victoria Australia birth cert that Maria did NOT know when she married William Searby, (not even a year) but she did advise the registrar that she was married in Pennsylvania ;D
Fingers crossed that will help a tad :) (I cannot decipher the tiny writing at bottom right outside the margin as my current video card in this puter is not quite up to scratch :-X at the mo :-X Shhh.... my OH updated a driver and now it is .... errr .... not as good as previously :-X )
I have seven generations of ancestors in NSW records, so I know how difficult it can be to find the tiny detail to unlock the hurdle to get past the brickwall too :)
Cheers, JM
The birth certificate says Pennsylvania, but it does not locate it with further geographical info.
Cheers, JM
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The tiny writing doesn't help either- it simply says " I (registrar's name) certify that..............."
Regards
Roger
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From Mary Ellen's birth registration in November 1881 we have the following siblings:
George William - 12 (1869)
Joseph - 10 (1871)
Charles - 7 (1874)
Lewis - 5 (1876)
and Peter - 3 (1878)
I wonder if this Victoria BDM death registration will provide the name of the country where he was born?
In 1952 Chas Jas SEARBY, death at age 79, at Parkville Victoria…. A son of Wm SEARBY and Maria MANNON. Rego no. #2859.
Victoria BDM death certs usually include “place of birth of the deceased and how long he or she resided in the Australian colonies or states (stating which)” , : :) :)
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,373754.0.html
Vic certs are downloadable, via plastic card.
https://online.justice.vic.gov.au/bdm/index-search?action=purchaseImage
Cheers, JM
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Yes. I know, that's why we are trying to establish where he was born from this latest Birth certificate, section of said certificate on my first post.
Many mistakes on Certificates, one of my ggt's was recorded as Fraser when in fact her name was Ashby
All a bit like hard work sometimes instead of a hobby :-\
Kate
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I have some questions .. If I may
What Victoria BDM certs do you currently hold for the CHILDREN of William and Maria ... any of them marry in Victoria at all .
if so would you check these and let us know the exact wording on each one as to 'where born'
Also dont overlook that on the death cert for Chas Jas SEARBY it could at a minimum give you his country of birth .... Perhaps you have missed KGarrad's post re Pennsylvania being two locations in England...
Perhaps William and Maria did not marry in USA as they perhaps were not at Pennsylvania USA but were in England to marry ..
Cheers JM
Yes. I know, that's why we are trying to establish where he was born from this latest Birth certificate, section of said certificate on my first post.
Many mistakes on Certificates, one of my ggt's was recorded as Fraser when in fact her name was Ashby
All a bit like hard work sometimes instead of a hobby :-\
Kate
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Firstly I didn't receive the post about Pennsylvania being in England so apologies to KGarrard for not responding and yes, I was aware of the fact.
The Death cert of Francis Joseph stated born America.
All the children married in Victoria and the one certificate I have says born New York.
There is also the birth found in New York for Charles the second born and the third was almost certainly born there prior to their sailing back to England before coming on to Australia.
So that seems to be correct, because the other three were born in Australia.
Kate
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Reverting back to your original question regarding the origins of William Searby and "HOLFORD".
My gut feeling is that the place is ALFORD in Lincolnshire - the informant was Irish, possibly had an Irish accent and appears to be illiterate, AND the Registration took place in Australia. Plus we know that there are a number of occurrences of the surname SEARBY in the Spilsby Registration District, which covers the town of ALFORD.
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I decided to follow through the families of the George Searbys from Lincolnshire and in particular that of George and Elizabeth in Chelsea in 1851(HO 107 1474 407 60).While they are horribly mis transcribed on FindMyPast in 1861(George is given as 75 from Herefordshire) I'm fairly sure they are the family at 365 Albany Road Camberwell(RG09 386 91 36).William is not with them,but,and it may be wishful thinking on my part,the occupation of George on the original looks like " Sec't(?) of John Manning(?) Company".It could be "Mining" or something similar..but worth a look?
Regards
Roger
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Thanks BumbleB and despair
Taken note of both suggestions and have been looking at Alford as suggested by another person too.
I am now shifting search to Pennsylvania Marriages, fingers crossed.
Many thanks to all.
Regards Kate