RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: Wood-dweller on Saturday 24 August 13 22:39 BST (UK)
-
I've been researching my family tree and have been at a brick wall for years now. If anyone could please give me any info, pointers or leads, I'd be very thankful.
The surname I'm looking for is DALTREY and they are a line of ivory/bone carvers and fan makers from around Bow/Shoreditch area of London.
I've got back to James Daltrey who was christened in 1747 in Bishopsgate, London. His father is listed as James Daltrey and his mother as Lydia King. It's there that I get completely stuck as I can't find any birth record for the older James Daltrey. I have James down as being born in 1700 but don't know where that date actually came from.
I've found James' and Lydia's marriage record which says:
"James Daltry Widower and Lydia King Spinster, both of the parish of St. Saviour, Southwark, were married by license" On the record, it looks like it's listed as 1741 but I believe it may be 1742 instead. Also, although the record itself says "St. Saviour, the text lists it as being St. Martin, Ludgate.
I've found a possible match for James' first wife: Mary Lewis who he (presumably) married on 22nd January 1740 in the parish og St Bartholomew the Great. By October 1741, Mary has died in childbirth and also, their baby, William. This would then fit in with James marrying Lydia in 1742.
This is the earliest trace of James I can find and I'm stumped. I've found a family he would fit well with but can't link him to it. William and Jane who lived around the St Martin Vintry area for many years and had several children born a few years either side of 1700. I just can't find that link though!
One other possibility I've seen on other peoples' linked trees is James' father being listed as John Daltrey/Daultree b 14 May 1665 Dunnington Near York, Yorkshire and a few generations back from him. I've also seen James listed as having died 1755 Pontefract, St. Giles, Yorkshire. Is there any way I can find out if this is likely to be true? At the moment, I've seen no concrete evidence of him having lived anywhere outside of London :-/
My grandad always said we were Huguenots who came over from France and I think that, ultimately, we go back to the D'Hauterive (also called De Alta Ripa) family but I just can't find links to them, or even to the Huguenots.
Any help, advice or leads would be very welcome .. thank you :-)
-
hi and welcome to rootschat .
can,t really help you but if you think there is a hugenot link why not look here www.hugenotsociety.org.uk they have several pdfs on searching possible hugenot links .
hope this helps
regards
trevor
-
Before you try to go any further backwards ...
"James Daltry Widower and Lydia King Spinster, both of the parish of St. Saviour, Southwark, were married by license" On the record, it looks like it's listed as 1741 but I believe it may be 1742 instead. Also, although the record itself says "St. Saviour, the text lists it as being St. Martin, Ludgate.
The image of the register shows that the marriage was at St Martin Ludgate, by licence, on 1 January 1742 (in the modern calendar, not 1741). Before 1752 the year began on Lady Day (25 March), and dates up to 24 March were reckoned as part of the previous year. Such dates are now often written in the form '1741/42', to avoid ambiguity.
Similarly, the earlier marriage to Mary Lewis was actually in 1741, not 1740.
When James and Lydia married at St Martin Ludgate, they were both resident in St Saviour Southwark. They will have married by licence because neither was resident in the parish where they married. Marriage by licence was an alternative to having banns read. One party had to swear an oath (allegation) that there was no legal impediment to the marriage, and he/she would forfeit a sum of money (bond) if the allegation later proved false.
This particular licence was issued by the Faculty Office of the Archbishop of Canterbury on 31 December 1741. The allegation and bond may give you a little more information, such as the name of the bondsman (who may be a relative), and perhaps an occupation. However, a father is unlikely to be named unless either spouse was under age.
The original allegations/bonds are held at Lambeth Palace, but there is a film at the Society of Genealogists Library in London, and there are also LDS films. If you don't have access to London, you could order a printout from the SoG microfilm, either via FindMyPast (if you subscribe) or directly from the Society itself.
http://www.sog.org.uk/the-library/search-copy-service/
Or post on the London & Middlesex Lookup Requests board for a lookup at the SoG library?
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?board=239.0
-
Hi Wood-dweller
Have you got round that brick wall?
I would be very interested to know if you gained information beyond James Daltrey (1700-1755) - presumably you are aware of the tree on Wikitree [ http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Daltrey-38 ] ?
I too am a decendent of James Daltrey, or so I believe.
My mother who died in 2007 had done a lot of research but as far as I am aware she never concluded if we were descended from Huguenot refugees in the C17th
[ http://www.historytoday.com/robin-gwynn/englands-first-refugees ]
or from Daltreys who came over in 1066
[ http://www.1066.co.nz/library/battle_abbey_roll1/subchap191.htm ]
Any further thoughts on the Huguenot connection?
Kind regards
Michael
-
I'm banging my head on same brick wall though re Yorkshire link I don't think that works. I've seen it before on trees - a James was buried in 1755 in Pontefract (and possibly born 1700) but the London James was cited as father to Ann with Lydia a week later (!) in London and on land tax records in 1759 so not the same one.
-
Hello again and sorry for not spotting your replies before now! You know you're going round in circles when you think you've hit on something good and it's just Google churning up your own forum posts! ;D ??? I'm still beating my head on that wall .. how about you two, spiller-daltrey and essaying_life? I'm absolutely no further on at all.
I have looked at the Dawtreys who came over in 1066. They're a fascinating family and I spent quite some time reading up about them but I can't find a link. My own feeling is that there isn't a connection (unless it's far back before then) for a couple of different reasons:
- The Dawtrey family were obviously rather prosperous in the 1600s. When James Daltrey appears in 1740, he is rather ordinary - it would be quite a leap (though not impossible) from coming from a family with land and titles.
- The family story that I've always heard is that we were decended from Huguenots who came from France. I think the story of Dawtrey connections, as they're so interesting, would have been carried down for sure if the link was there .
I also agree that the link with Yorkshire seems dodgy, though there are obviously a clump of Daltreys there at around the time we're looking at. I've also found Daltreys in Gainsborough but ruled them out as improbable.
My own hunch at the moment is to look further into these traces:
London land tax records
William Daltrey – Farringdon Without, City of London – 1692
William Daltrey – Vintry, City of London – 1725/1726/1728
I've also found my notes from last time I was looking. Please excuse the lack of sense in them but they're just thoughts as I went along. As follows:
Freeman of London records
Record 1 (which Ancestry has listed as being for 1686):
Willsford, son of William Dealtrie of “Brick Hill Land” and part of the Company of Dyers was made Freeman of London in 1686 - although the record is written like a sum: 1686
38
-------
1724
Possibly the correct date could be 1724? (This date is important to tie it in with a birth record for Willsford further down these notes)
Possibly, “Brick Hill Land” Could be “Brick Hill Lane”, St. Martin Vintry although I would need to verify that this lane existed at that time.
Record 2:
Thomas Dealtrey, son of Willsford Dealtrey of Nottingham (... Former deceased?) puts himself apprentice to John Bennett citizen and cutler of London.
(Though further down in my notes there is a birth record showing Willsford as being christened in Saint Martin, Vintry, London so why would it list him on the apprentice records as being from Nottingham? This record may be nothing to do with "our" Daltreys and just a co-incidence)
A hunch …
Could Willsford be James’ brother? Could William be his father?
While looking for clues of this, I’ve found traces of a family from around the same time. They were baptised/christened at St. Martin Vintry. The parents are William and Jane Doltrey. Their children are shown as being christened in 1689, 1697 and 1705 so time-wise, they would fit as siblings for James. It’s a long shot but possible … ?
William Dolltrey m. Jane Willsford 04 Apr 1689 (Saint James Dukes Place, London)
Samuell Daltrey b. 1689 (St. Lawrence Jewry and St. Mary Magdalen Milk Street, London)
Susana Doltrey b.1697 (Saint Martin – Vintry, London)
Willsford Daltrey b.1705 (Saint Martin – Vintry, London)
Of course, the only problem with the above theory is that I simply can't find the birth/christening record for James! Any thoughts you have about it all would be very welcome :)
-
Freeman of London records
Record 1 (which Ancestry has listed as being for 1686):
Willsford, son of William Dealtrie of “Brick Hill Land” and part of the Company of Dyers was made Freeman of London in 1686 - although the record is written like a sum: 1686
38
-------
1724
Possibly the correct date could be 1724? (This date is important to tie it in with a birth record for Willsford further down these notes)
The year given in Ancestry's transcription (1686) is incorrect. The record isn't dated on the front where it should be, although there is a printed 17... for the year at the top. Ancestry's source information shows February-July 1744, which looks a lot more feasible. This would be the year that Willsford was admitted to Freedom.
The year 1686 is when Willsford's father William Dealtry became a Freeman. A son could be admitted to Freedom by patrimony (as here) only if his father had been admitted to Freedom before the son was born.
To validate this, the father’s date of admission is checked in the relevant register and recorded here (3 March 1686). As a double-check, the age of the son who is applying for admission (38) is then added to the year of the father’s admission (1686), to ensure that the total (1724) comes to less than the current year (1744).
So if Willsford was honest about his age (38 in 1744) he would have been born around 1706.
NB It is indeed Brick Hill Lane (not Land).
-
Bookbox, that's really helpful - thank you! It all makes sense when you know how to read it properly :-)
I'm banging my head on same brick wall though re Yorkshire link I don't think that works. I've seen it before on trees - a James was buried in 1755 in Pontefract (and possibly born 1700) but the London James was cited as father to Ann with Lydia a week later (!) in London and on land tax records in 1759 so not the same one.
Spiller, yes, I agree that the Yorkshire James is very unlikely. It just doesn't sit right at all, although I notice that so many people have added him to their records!
My own feeling is that James' birth record is probably there but mis-transcribed so I'm planning to try trawling through and seeing if I spot anything. One other thought I had on it all (which goes against my theory of him fitting in with the family above) is that he's often listed as being born around 1700 but that would make him about 40 when he was first married and 41 before his first child was born. He would have been 55 when his last child was born. I wonder if his birth date needs to be shifted about 10 - 15 years later to 1710 - 1715.
Will let you know if I find anything out :-)
-
Hi again,
Good to hear from you - I have only recently picked this up again myself, so your renewed interest is timely. But I am afraid I dont have great deal to add at this stage in terms of evidence, and to-date have been greatly helped by others (Spiller particularly to thank). For now I offer a few observations:
1. I think the fact there was also a belief in our line that there was a Huguenot connection is possibly significant, but evidence is only circumstantial. I have also been reninded this week that there was also a seperate story in our line of "three brothers" who came over (no context though!).
2. Focusing on the knowns - I think it is significant Lydia was baptised in Nonconfomist chapel and James Daltrey (b.1747), wife, and many decendants were buried in Nonconformist burialgrounds.
I think that is significant for a number of reasons - including one possibility to be considered - that James elder was a Baptist - as if so there would potentially be no infant baptism - in most cases though (as I understand) there would be a birth record - But note - Protestant Dissenters' Registry of Births from Dr Williams Library only started in 1716 - so may have just missed James. Just a speculative thought.
Keen to continue.
Michael
-
Good points Michael :) The "three brothers" story is very interesting! I started looking further into non-conformist records and then went off on a tangent (family history seems very good for that!) and decided to go back to the first "definite" evidence of James that I have - his marriage to Mary Lewis in 1740. It was in Southwark so I started looking for records of Daltreys there and came across a fascinating website! There are a great many mentions of William Dawtre (or Dawttre or Dawtrey, the spellings vary throughout) in the late 1500s. It may well just be coincidence and not linked to our Daltreys but it's very interesting that it's a variation of Daltrey in the earlier "definite" place we know of. It makes a fascinating read regardless!
You can find links to much of the info at http://www-personal.umich.edu/~ingram/StSaviour/
I just opened lots of the pages and searched the page for the text "Daw" and it came up with many mentions of William Dawttre and the wall he built :)
1579 May 4 Monday:
A Vestry called the 4th of May Anno 1579, being the 15th day after Easter in the presence of these persons following, at which time the churchwardens brought in their quarter account for that quarter viz Robert Pinder, John Darlysonne, John Trene, John Pidgin, John Mounfyld, and Walter Burtonne, the Queen's Majesty paid her half year's rent due at this day for this parsonage, and all other debts, duties, and charges owing by the parish any way to any person being then paid and discharged in like manner by the said churchwardens, yet their doth remain in their hands this present day as money of the parish's, the sum of £13 6s 8d, I say £13 6s 8d.
At which Vestry William Dawtrye came in and requested that the law betwixt the parish and him might surcease, and submitted himself to the parish, and requested that he might have a lease of the ground whereupon his brick wall stands adjoining unto our church way, and abutteth upon the well house of the Bull Head for the yearly rent which was granted him at the setting up of the wall, which was 16d by the year. In consideration whereof he paid the same day in the Vestry to Robert Pinder, being then churchwarden, and the rest of the churchwardens all the charges which he caused us to spend in the law in Richard Dodsonn's time, which was the sum of 21s 0d. Also he paid more the same time unto the said churchwardens for five years' [ar]rearages, which was behind and unpaid for the said ground 6s 8d, in all the sum of 27s 8d, and so he departed. And then the house concluded with the whole consent that he should have a lease of the same, and for the same rent, which lease should be for so many years as at this day is unexpired of Thomas Bromfyld's lease of the garden plot within the said wall — 27s 8d.
There are also searchable "Token book" records on there in which Dawtry is mentioned three times between 1572 - 1579 and he also witnesses three different wills with the earliest being 1563.
It's another long shot but it may be worth us concentrating on Southwark to look for traces of James? What do you think? After partially dismissing the idea of us being related to the Sussex Dawtreys, it's quite ironic that the spelling is the same! I wonder if there is a link after all ... ?
-
Very interesting - will reflect on this when I have time and get back.
Forgot to add in last email - on issue of date of James birth, Spiller - located the 1741 request for marraige licence with Lydia - which gave James age as 25 on 31.12.1741 - so working on James birth must be 1715/1716.
Be in touch again soon
-
Just a very quick note to day that I stumbled across another forum today where some people were discussing trying to trace a different line of Daltreys/Dawtreys. They discuss the William/Jane/Willsford group I mentioned in my post above. I though they may be a possible family for our James but it looks like one of the people on the forum have studied the family quite a bit and there's no mention of James at all, just the other children they had. So, it looks less likely to me that James would fit with this group after all. Of course, it's not ruled out but I just thought I'd mention it anyway. The thread is at http://pub11.bravenet.com/forum/static/show.php?usernum=907514572&frmid=22&msgid=1122799&cmd=show
One post from the thread (I think they're looking at the possibility of these Daltreys being linked to the group from Gainsborough):
It would be interesting to see what the 1689 William Dealtry did for a living...the Gainsborough Dealtrys were wine merchants so it is quite likely that they would have had some presence in the capital.
Interesting that I've seen a fair few Daltreys living in Vintry ward which was so-named because of all the wine merchants there.
Anyway, my brain is feeling rather frazzled with all these possibilities but I may post a reply on the other forum to see if anyone picks it up and we can all share a few notes. If there was a link, it may also tie in the Nottingham/Gainsborough/York Daltreys :-)
-
Hi all
Like many coming back to this brick wall again recently.
Firstly though, I've not been too convinced about the Huguenot connection in early 1700s as checked the French church in the city via the H society and nothing like daltrey listed anywhere.
Secondly I've just discovered on Findmypast (not listed on Ancestry or Family' search) a James Daltry born in Beverley Yorkshire in 1717 (year is at most 1 year out) to father James a shoemaker. No proof of link to London but I can't find any subsequent Yorkshire records (marriage, children, death) relating to him and people clearly did move to London (e.g. Richard Dealtry will from 1740 says lived Whitechapel left lease in Bubwith Yorkshire - son James, another red herring!). Looks like his father married a Mary which is James and Lydia's first daughters name I believe.
Not proven I know but given lack of any London (or anywhere else given birth date now known) or Huguenot connections maybe it works......
-
Just to add James baptism was 2 May 1717, actual birth could easily have been 1716 i.e. before 25 March.
-
Sorry meant also to add, seems were some Huguenots who came over to Yorkshire in earlier wave in 1500s...
-
Hi, sorry about multiple posts but just found London apprenticeship record from 1678 for William Daltrey son of Hugh Daltrey of Beverley Yorkshire. So moving down (or sending son) to London clearly did happen. Have found baptism for Willus son of Hugonis in 1663. William (who may be the Carrington William around 1690) could be uncle of James, his father Hugh brother to William and also in Beverly a Hugh bpt in 1675 son of John - stretching s point but these could be 3 brothers! Can only find the 1663 William baptism though. All very speculative but it could all fit. Need to spend more time on this.
-
Hi Spiller
Welcome to Rootschat ;D
Wood-dweller was online here last September so should receive an email notification that you have posted and hopefully come back soon.
Dawn
-
Early history of Daltrey
Someone wanted to know who the parents of James Daltrey - died 1694
Parents William Daltrey 1663-1732 married Janes Willford 1663 -1731/2 and had other children - Sarah, Elizabeth, John, Willsford (?), Samuel, Mary , Susannaand Rosamud.
-See attached pdf Note Early Daltreys -that that came with William the conqueror are recorded a side chapel in York Minster, York
-
Sorry Spiller and Daltrey, I've just come back to this and have discovered your replies! How interesting - I'll have a look at all the leads and will report back. Thank you both!
-
Hi
I did a bit more work on this and found a tentative link to Yorkshire with birth date of James in the right period plus link to another Daltrey (cousin) who definitely moved to London - also no further records in Yorkshire of this James. Hopefully the attachment explains a bit more !
Keith