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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Dublin => Topic started by: Rpeake on Wednesday 21 August 13 22:30 BST (UK)
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Ok I am struggling a bit with my great grandmother Ellen brophy born 1887 Dublin
I've found a baptism record saying her parents are John brophy and Teresa brimmer ( though record looks more like Crimmer based on how they wrote B in another name) and put her in rathimes (I think that's what it says I've come off page now) but her marriage records say her parents are Thomas brophy and Teresa crimmins this record I know is correct as the address was the family home of my nan. Which names do I out as parents as 1901 census has mother called Mary but this could be step mother due to difference in age between siblings.
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There are three Brophy baptisms on irishgenaelogy of children born to Teresa Crimmins
Ellen Teresa Brophy of Mt Pleasant Place -Father John Brophy 18th Sept 1887
James Michael Brophy of Ranelagh- Father James Brophy 29th Sept 1889
William Brophy 2 Westmoreland Park- Father Thomas Brophy 9th August 1891
All baptised in Rathmines . Terasa Crimmins is named as mother in all three. Do you have the civil birth record for Ellen? Maybe obtaining the civil birth records for the three children might clear up the confusion regarding fathers names
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Hi
Marriage of Teresa Crimmins
G.R.O Index
Marriages Dublin South Jul/Sept 1886
Volume 2
Page 587
Thomas Brophy is on same page ,same reference
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Oh wow how did you find that? Would that mean the baptist record is not hers as record has her name and same mother but dad as john
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Sorry I am not clearer I think all 3 baptism are for the same family-it is a little confusing that the fathers name is different on all 3 baptisms.
On irishgenealogy there is also the following marriage in Rathmines
25th August 1851
James Crimmin and Maria Butler---possible parents of Teresa Crimmins
Also 2 baptisms in Rathmines
John Crimmins of Mount Pleasant 12th February 1860-Parents James Crimmins/Maria Butler
James Patrick Crimmins of Mount Pleasant 6th July 1862- Parents James Crimmins/Maria Butler
Possibly brothers of Teresa.
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Right to confuse everyone even more. Looking at the marriages of Thomas and Teresa these are not the people. When I looked at the census records for Ellen her mom is down as mary I know it's the right Ellen because she is on Gordon's place ten yrs later still there but has moved a few houses down to the murphy family where she married the son William a few months later and this became the family home for many hrs till they moved to charlemount street.
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Ok looking at the1901 census and looking for births for the children there are 2 possible births on the G.R.O Index for Thomas aged 5 in 1901.
Thomas Brophy
Births Dublin South Oct/Dec 1895 Volume 2 Page 545 and
Births Dublin South Jan/Mar 1896 Volume 2 Page 581
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Can you give me the link to that page please as I can't seem to find it and then maybe I could try and search for Ellen to get a birth certificate for her
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Hello,
Irish BMD indexes are here: https://familysearch.org/search/collection/1408347
Here are the two Brophy (https://familysearch.org/search/record/results#count=20&query=%2Bgivenname%3AThomas~%20%2Bsurname%3ABrophy~%20%2Bbirth_place%3A%22Dublin%20south%22%20%2Bbirth_year%3A1895-1897~&collection_id=1408347) births mentioned
Heywood
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Thank you
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In answer to your question which father’s name to use;
from a brief look at the family I think that I would accept the details recorded at Ellen’s marriage
unless you locate further information to the contrary.
My reasoning for this is that it is an official record and everything else requires proof.
What I discovered is listed below with links:
Marriage Record of Ellen BROPHY & William MURPHY; 1911 (http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/fb7b5e0006581)
shows her parents as Thomas BROPHY & Teresa CRIMMINS (transcribed as BRIMMER);
Ellen BROPHY in the MURPHY home on the 1911 census (http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Fitzwilliam/Gordon_Place/73373/)
Although her parents’ address was given as 19 Gordon Place;
they are not resident there on the census return
BROPHY Family on 1901 census at 11.7 Gordon’s Place (http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Fitzwilliam/Gordon_s_Place/1306411/)
This looks like the church marriage record in 1886 (http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/ec83e10013931) of Thomas BROPHY & Teresa CRIMMINS;
her name is transcribed as CUMMINS however it looks more like CRIMMINS to me,
if you examine the original. which would tie to the civil record shown by jnoone earlier.
I believe that the family were in the habit of using alternate given names throughout their lives
as the baptisms previously found with the mother Teresa Crimmins,
showed different father’s first names on each:
Baptism of Ellen BROPHY 1887 (http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/b9a87f0025931) (F)John
Baptism of James Michael BROPHY 1889 (http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/74af920026388) (F) James
Baptism of Wiliam BROPHY 1891 (http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/e601bb0026823) (F)Thomas
However other records tie all these people, places and names together.
There are prison records referring to Teresa BROPHY in 1900 which would imply
that she was alive at that time 1900 in Mountjoy as Bessie O’BRIEN (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/KM7J-8SJ)
& 1900 as Teresa BROPHY which may be the same minor offence of drunk (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/KM7J-8SV).
The address of Gordon’s Place links her to the family in 1901
and the birthplace of Mt. Pleasant Ave links her to the baptism records.
There is also a record of an Ellen BROPHY (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/KM7W-JH9) in 1910;
birthplace Mountpleasant, residence Gordon’s Place, aged 22
which would tie the baptism with the father’s named John. She was also known as Teresa!
There are further records that I looked at on a paid site where
William BROPHY aged 21 in 1911 showed his mother Teresa of 19 Gordon Place as his next of kin;
Teresa BROPHY aged 43 also in 1911 showed T. Brophy as her husband and next of kin;
James BROPHY aged 25 in 1914 showed his mother Teresa of 21 Gordon Place as his next of kin.
James also applied unsuccessfully to join the Royal Dublin Fusiliers in 1914;
his file gives his next of kin as mother Theresa of 19 Gordon Place
and Bro. William of South Richmond Street.
There is no other family member mentioned i.e. Ellen or Thomas.
There is a death of a Theresa BROPHY in 1918 (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FR2V-KMW)
that fits with the correct age but not at any other time in Dublin
which could imply one of two things that
Teresa was listed as Mary in 1901
or that Thomas and Teresa just parted ways and he called a new partner, Mary, his wife on the 1901 census.
Hope that this helps rather than confuses but if you go though each records and compare the similarities you will see that most ties together and the purchase of a few civil records could confirm the details. – good luck!
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Marriage record lists residence of bride (and groom) at the time of the parents but that may not be where their families were living.
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Marriage record lists residence of bride (and groom) at the time of the parents but that may not be where their families were living.
In the case of Ellen BROPHY's marriage, the church record fortunately shows both her parents names and their address; and it differs from hers. Unfortunately, she is shown on the 1911 census a few months earlier, at the address she gave at her marriage; but her parents are not where is given for them or elsewhere on that road!
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Hello,
I am very interested in this post as James Brophy who unsuccessfully applied to the Dublin Fusiliers just might be James Ernest Brophy who successfully applied to the Lancashire Fusiliers and went on to Gallipoli.
I am looking more into James Ernest who is my gr grandfather.
Thank you for the read. Any suggestions on great places to search, feel free to advise.
Kind regards.
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joannae
Welcome to Roots Chat!
What do you already know of your great grandfather James Ernest BROPHY?
In my searches for this Brophy family I have located several pieces of information for the James mentioned.
The address of Gordon Place and parents names are the main links.
Two definitive pieces are that James was in Mountjoy on a charge of deserting the Connaught Rangers Reg#10965 in 1914 and unsuccessfully tried to join the Royal Dublin Fusiliers later that year.
If you know more about your James Brophy we may be able to help prove he is the same man or look up further information on him. Did he survive WW1?
I don't see a death in Gallipoli but there is one in France in 1916 (See Link (http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead.aspx?cpage=1))
There was a death in Gallipoli but the man was in the Royal Dublin Fusiliers
As your GGF he was presumably married - if you locate his marriage certificate this will help piece more together for you
If he is not from the same family it may be worth while starting a new topic
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myluck! Hi. Wow, some great info there, which has prompted me to dig out my laptop for more info.
James Ernest was my grandfather, (sorry, I got that wrong). James CHESTER is my gr grandfather and was a member of the Lancashire Fusiliers Service number: 9360, (now confirmed as not your guy), where I understand he achieved the rank of acting RSM on 20/04/1919 and was later discharged as RSM. He married Mary Ann. They lived at Bolton Rd, Bury.
I think her Mary Ann's maiden name was Webb. Mary Ann and James Chester had four children, three of whom died of consumption. James Ernest is my grandfather DOB 30/04/1903. Born in Aldershot, England. GrGrandfather was advised by his doctor to take James Ernest to a more temperate climate as he was quite a sickly child. I believe they moved after the war,possibly 1920. They moved to Australia.
James Ernest married Molly ? (can't lay my hands on the surname atm). He worked in an area of essential supply during the second world war (for a petroleum company), and as such was not a soldier himself. They had five children. James, Patricia, Christopher, Colleen and Mark. Patricia, Christopher and Colleen are deceased. James Terrence Brophy is my father. DOB: 07/11/1941
Any suggestions on what to search and where to search next would be much appreciated.
Kind regards,
Jo-anna
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Joannae
A couple of things
As it now seems that your James Brophy is from a different family;
may I suggest that you start a new topic to avoid confusion?
Depending on what you are hoping to find will depend on which forum to use
i.e. your Irish roots or English roots etc.
I can see the family on the UK 1911 and 1901 census and have found some information that I will then add to the discussion as I can confirm most of what you have stated here plus a bit.
Also, once you have a third posting on this site you can send and receive private messages
This is the best way to share sensitive information e.g. details of people still living to protect their privacy if you are looking for living relatives.
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Any suggestions on what to search and where to search next would be much appreciated.
you can access ancestry.com free for a trial period if not already subscribing
on this site there are at least two public family trees that include your ancestors
I would however be very cautious in accepting the information shown as there are anomalies in it
e.g. one child is shown as having died in 1902 but she is listed on the 1911 census
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This is probably a complete red herring but I am researching my brophy family. None of the info in this post relates (as far as I can see) except that my grandfather - Michael Brophy - married Roseanne McCall who was born and lived at 21 Gordons Place. Parents are living there on 1901 census and she gives it as her address in 1902 on a marriage certificate. She married Michael in 1903. Also Michael had a brother James born 9 May 1880 Linehall St and christened 14th May in St Michans.
Is this too much of a coincidence? ???
Mike
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What was Michael's address at the time of his marraige or in 1901?
I see that Michael's parents are William and Bridget Fennelly
(from James's Baptism record[url=http://)
The [url=http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai003725343/]Brophy family at 11.7 Gordon's Place on the 1901 census])
The [url=http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai003725343/]Brophy family at 11.7 Gordon's Place on the 1901 census (http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/0c0a090262824) (original to topic) were
Thomas and Mary (Teresa) - they may have been related in some way
Their marriage records is not available on line but the reference was given earlier in this topic
If Thomas is William's brother the parents should be the same!
Or he could be a cousin!
However you would need to work through relationships to be sure
I wouldn't rule is out or in until you've proof ;)
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he was at 51 BISHOP STREET (beside where the national archive is now :o). She was at 30 LWR CLANBRASSIL STREET. http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/0a76090006183 (http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/0a76090006183)
His mother was fenlon - I am assuming a mistake on the part of the person entering the original record and wrote fennelly rather than fenlon?!