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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Australia Lookups completed => Topic started by: plewsy on Wednesday 21 August 13 21:35 BST (UK)
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Hi
Im hoping to find my relative we believe moved to Ausralia .
His name was Thomas Carlen we believe he was born 1845 in shoreditch london and moved to Australia.
any help would be brilliant
thankyou
Plewsy
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Hi, Ah you say you believe your Thomas Carlen was born 1845 in London. Does this statement mean you are not sure? Also when did he supposedly move to Australia, was he married, or go with family or single, young, old and also any idea of what State he went to? Modified....Do you have him on any census?
His Parents names will help identify the correct one if found in Australia, do you know these please?
Neil
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Hi Neil
its been passed down the family that Thomas Carlen went to Australia ,we dont know when or where abouts .
his parents were Thomas and Sarah but i dont know if they went .
he was born 1845 in shoreditch london
the last cencus we found was 1851 in london with his parents
plewsy
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I can find only one roughly fitting the right age/name. That is an Arthur Thomas CARLEN in 1861 London the son of a Widow Sarah Carlen and siblings. He is born 1848.
Neil
Seeing red
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can i ask what seeing red means at the end of your comment
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Means your post was up before my reply?
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Possibly your Carlen Family.
Thomas b1891 TYPO b1791South Shields, Susan b1801Hampton, Thomas b1845 City Road. they are living at
NICHOL SQUARE Parish SAINT LEONARD SHOREDITCH City TOWER HAMLETS County Middlesex
Division Of County MIDDLESEX OSSULSTON.
Are these the one's you refer too and what leads you to believe that Thomas went to Australia, please. ???
Neil
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Plewsy on this link you were also sure another of your CARLEN ancestor had emigrated to Australia but was found in the US.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=654848.0
Is this your family in 1851? If so, mother appears to be Susan not Sarah.
1851 Census HO107/1537/178/ 41
Living at 82 Nichol Square, Shoreditch [There was also another family living at this address]
CARLEN Thomas Head Married 60 years Merchant's clerk Born South Shields
CARLEN Susan Wife Married 50 years Born Hampton
CARLEN Thomas Carlen Son 6 years Born Mid City Rd
MORGAN Catharine Servant 15 years House Servant Born Westminster
Oh Neil I now see Neil has mentioned the 1851 census however I have listed Thomas' seniors occupation so will leave it.
This may be Susan's death
Deaths Mar 1868
CARLEN Susannah 67 years Islington 1b/144
Incidentally do you have Thomas's birth certificate? If not how do you know you have the correct Thomas?
Cando
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I don't hold much store in family tales, but I will add that if Thomas b1791 came from South Shields in Durham that you may have some good luck with tracing his family via the Durham Bishops Transcripts. They are available online and are a great resource.
Your Thomas may have been the reason for the others going to California, so a possible post there may yeild a result.
Neil
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The only CARLEN registration in 1845 in England and Wales on FreeBMD is a John William CARLEN, reg Shoreditch Jun qr, Vol 2 p403
I think this is the baptism for that baby:
18 April, 1845 at St John Hoxton, Hackney
John William CARLEN
Parents: John Carlen, cashier, Susan Carlen residing at Britannia St
I have not read all of the other thread but this John William CARLEN would seem to be the father of Henry Tatton CARLEN found in US. This John William CARLEN also went to the US but was still in London in 1861 with his parents, and 1871 with his wife and children. (Image shows that the surname may have been CARLEN)
4 Sebbon St, Islington
John Carlin 72, 'town traveller', b South Shields
Susannah Carlin 60, b Hampstead, Middlesex
John W Carlin 16, b Hoxton
Sarah Whitaker 28, servant
This couple were married in 1843. His occupation is given as 'accountant' and both were living in Cromwell Rd (presumably in Lambeth as that's where the marriage took place). If her age is correct she was 46 when her baby was born.
The Thomas we are looking for seems to fit the 1851 census details put up by Neil and Cando, however his parents are given as Thomas and Susan. ??? Could the names have been a mistake on the part of the enumerator? ::)
Judith
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Hi ,im so sorry for dissappearing but i had a bad day
had to put the family dog down .
thankyou to Neil for the message and no offence was taken .
the 1851 cencus was correct sorry ,it was Susan Carlen not Sarah .
but after that cencus young Thomas born 1845 dissappears
our family have passed down the years he moved to Australia ,im afraid thats all i know .
i went on the Ancestry Australian sight and there is one thomas carlen on the imagration records but it costs a fortune to find out who he was ,
cheers
Plewsy
P.S the John William Carlen found was his Cousin
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Hiya Plewsy, so sorry about the dog. Always hard to loose a family friend. Actually I found it very difficult to find any Carlen, seems lots of spellings and possible connections, but really nothing concrete on any of them past 1851 census. What I like to do is dig them out first in England before trying to find out who possibly emmigrated and to where. I have not done any searches here or NZ yet and have not sighted that immigration record. I wasn't sure you were continuing ;)
Will see what we can find
Neil
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Thankyou Neil
Thats very nice of you
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So sorry about your dog Plewsy.
The closest I can find is a Thomas Carlan, residence London, who died at sea aboard the St Marnock. He was born about 1841 and died 29th Feb 1888. His death was registered Port Adelaide, South Australia. (page no 190 vol 171)
This newspaper report said he was a seaman and died of heart disease http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article47265716
regards,
Ros
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Or if we look much later ... (from ancestry)
There is a Thos Carlin arriving in 1908 with his family. Looking at the image it could possibly be Carlen.
Thos Carlin, ship's name Ormuz, departed London 10 July 1908 for Sydney Australia. No ages given.
Thos Carlin, farmer
Esther Carlin, wife
Marion Carlin
Maggie Carlin
Tom Carlin
Esther Carlin
regards,
Ros
Can't see a death for this man in NSW BDM http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/bdm_fh.html before 1950 so doesn't look likely and doesn't explain why he wasn't in censuses
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There are some CARLIN deaths in New Zealand and some in Victoria both have a Thomas but none with right parents, so their out.
Running out of options ::)
I really don't think he came to Oz, not sure of what happened to any of them as the name can be spelt many ways we may never know ?
Cheers Neil
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There was a crewman on an Immigrant ship to NSW Aust.
James CARLEN, aged 23, AB, British, on the Golconda in Sept 1871 (departing from the port of Charente .... France)
There's no report indicating he jumped ship though, so he probably was still an AB on its return voyage.
http://mariners.records.nsw.gov.au/1871/09/079gol.htm
I have searched diligently, both on the earlier thread and again for this thread. I cannot find a Thomas CARLEN in NSW Australia.
Cheers, JM
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thankyou everyone
it puzzled us too ,like you say we may never know
all your searching has been much appreciated
Plewsy
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I am quite puzzled by some of the co-incidences and overlaps in the records for Thomas and Susan CARLEN and their son Thomas, with the records for John and Susan(nah) CARLEN and their son John William.
Could you tell us what records you have for either Thomas the father or Thomas the son - I can see only the one record on the 1851 census?
Was John CARLEN, 47 (b abt 1793), the person pleading guilty at the Old Bailey on 6 July 1840 to forging 2 bills of exchange? This man was sentenced to 7 years transportation, (I cannot see a transportation for him but it's not unusual to be sentenced and kept in prison in UK) and in the 1841 census he is in the General Penitentiary, Millbank, Westminster, occupation: clerk, not born in Middlesex.
There is no mention of this man in the 1851 census but in 1861 he is with his wife Susannah, and son John William, as we have already seen.
I am inclined to think that there is a possibility that the 1851 entry for father Thomas and son Thomas is actually John, his wife Susan and their son John William using the forenames Thomas and Thomas.
My reasons, and they are only conjecture:
There is no birth registered for a Thomas CARLEN anywhere in England and Wales in 1845. There is a birth registered for John William in 1845 in Shoreditch.
In 1851 Thomas jnr's birthplace is given as City Road, Middlesex which is definitely within the Shoreditch registration district.
In 1851 Susan's birthplace is given as Hampton, in 1861 Susannah (husband given as John) also has the birthplace Hampton The ages of the adults, birthplaces of Thomas and John are consistent across the censuses also.
You say that Thomas jnr is a cousin of John William which implies that Thomas and John (the fathers) were brothers. It seems to me to be too much of a co-incidence that there are two brothers, both marrying a Susan born in Hampstead 1801 or a Susannah also born in Hampstead 1801, both producing a son born the same year in the same area of London.
Perhaps John used the name Thomas as he had been in prison or perhaps the census enumerator collected the name incorrectly.
There is also a daughter of John and Susannah - Fanny Susan(na) Burton CARLEN, b1832.
Do you want information about her?
Cheers, Judith
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Yes Judith ... Fantastic ... .... and may I add....
19th C longhand used abbreviations ...
eg Jno for John and Thos for Thomas (with superscript for the "s" so it could fade out or bleed away to a blemish)
Jno v Tho in longhand .... easy to mis-read in 21st C. Also easy to 'over-write if trying to disguise your name !
Cheers JM
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If I can I will look through the Bishops Transcripts ( A VEEEEERy Long process) To see who was actually born in South Sheilds Durham between 1790 and 1802. I have them open at the moment but they are not pageing correctly and will only go page by page. Asthere are 900odd pages I don't want to download each of them. Maybe tomorrow (today) 12,35pm when my brain is operating better.
Neil
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Hi Again
ok here is what i know for deffinate
Thomas Carlen was born South Shields 1784 christened 11 January 1784
i have a marraige for him to Sarah Davison 22 june 1813 in Mickelham Surrey
so im thinking the 1851 cencus is incorrect.
i have the will for sarah Carlen nee davison who died 1 may 1876 where she is a widow and leaves her money to her nephew and not a son .
im confused aswell as i found a death for Thomas Carlen in 1845 but dismissed it as i found the 1851 cencus with his name on it .
by the way i live in South Shields and there was only one Carlen Family here .which is why i was sure the 1851 cencus should be the Thomas Carlen in my tree .
but as Judith explains its too much of a coincidence for the marriages and births of the two brothers families .
i love the idea that they changed the names because he was in jail.
yes id love Fanny susan burton calens info please
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Well I am not going to go through the Bishops Transcripts as you already have his Baptism. You should put as much info into your post when you first do them, it saves everybody else looking for same information and wastes an awful lot of time.
If Sarah left her goods and chattels to her nephew presumably John/Thomas...then he was more than likely her actual son who had changed his name to save some prison time for a possible crime as yet to be punished. :o You could tell the census enumerator anything and he would have to believe that, so maybe not incorrect just a few fibs. I don't know where you found the death for a Thomas Carlen as we are unable to but, I would get the DC as this will at the least have his approximate age. I think what you have is the Grandparents of the Thomas you are looking for, Sarah would have been way too old to be having children in 1845, but not the Sons (Thomas) wife SUSSANAH
IE: Thomas CARLEN 1784 = Sarah DAVISON have Sons John and Thomas b 1813-1818 or close to those dates maybe they marry later one to a Susannah one to a Sarah ??? Somewhere around early 1840's then they have sons mid 1840's one of which is a Thomas and one of which is a John......
A whole heap of conjecture at this stage but it looks more like a family tree..... ::)
Neil :P
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Why would i think you would look at south shields births when i asked about a bloke who went to Australia
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The last 2 posts have been moderated.
May I remind everyone that if you personally receive a reply to one of you posts that you are unhappy with then please "Report to Moderator". Do not reply in manner that may make matters worse.
Misunderstandings can easily happen on forum postings , sometimes it's hard to make a point without
sounding rude or nasty. :(
So please think before you post , we are all here to help each other. :)
thank you
ev
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Hi Plewsy,
Neil was just saying that he didn't need to look anymore for Thomas Carlen's baptism if you already had it :)
cheers,
Ros :)
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Thankyou all for your help but id rather leave this now .
Please dont do any further research.
Cheers
Plewsy