RootsChat.Com
General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: SmallTownGirl on Monday 19 August 13 15:50 BST (UK)
-
Hi
This picture was worked in wool by someone who was a Private in the Royal Marines 1860-1874, and who died in 1879. He served variously on HMS Formidable, Charybdis, Brisk, Euryalus and Pylades.
Is there any way of finding out
a) if it's supposed to be one of these ships
and
b) what the flags mean?
Thanks
-
If you search Wikipedia for each ship you should get a picture. I know there is one for Euryalus. My GGF was a RM aboard when they fought a Japanese warlord in September 1864
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:NavalBrigade%26MarinesatShimonoseki.jpg
No medals apart from a couple of VCs.
It could be Euryalus. but you need to check out the others.
A ship dresses up when it is being reviewed, to celebrate a royal birthday, or visiting a foreign port on a courtesy visit. Most of the flags are signal flags.
Ken
-
Between the dates 1860 -1874 there were three Royal Navy Fleet reviews, Aug 1865, July 1867,
and June 1873 all by Queen Victoria, this woolwork could well be a record of one of them,
Though sailors/marines were very competant at all kinds of crafts and hobbies whilst at sea, Scrimshaw work, modelling from bone and other "salvaged" material, rope and canvas shoes et al,
so it may be a gift for a family member when he returned home.
James
-
If you search Wikipedia for each ship you should get a picture. I know there is one for Euryalus. My GGF was a RM aboard when they fought a Japanese warlord in September 1864
A ship dresses up when it is being reviewed, to celebrate a royal birthday, or visiting a foreign port on a courtesy visit. Most of the flags are signal flags.
Ken
Then your GGF and this man, who was my GGF, were on the same ship, at the same time, in the same place.
I did try looking for images of the [named] ships, but couldn't really make them out. Didn't think it was the Euryalus though, that only seemed to have one row of black-and-white rows (sorry, absolutely no idea what they are/what they are called).
-
Here's the Euryalus
http://www.euryalus.org.uk/hist-2nd.htm
-
You are correct. It cannot be HMS Euryalus (1853). With 35 guns (RN did not count the carronades in the rating) it would have only have one gun deck. I see I also got the number of VCs wrong. Should be three.
A good rule of thumb was one marine per gun. I will check that out one day for my GGFs ships.
Royal Marines usually served in their home town ships. So was yours a Chatham man? My GGF was later transferred to the Portsmouth division. His other claim to fame was when I ordered his records about 15 years ago the PRO were trying out a new A2 colour printer and his record was on display as a sample for many years in the print room.
Good luck in the search for a ship.
Ken
-
So was yours a Chatham man?
He was, and discharged on grounds of ill-health from there too.
Can anyone point me to a good site where I could read what flag signifies what, please?
-
I don't know anything about it I'm afraid but just wanted to say what a lovely picture it is!
-
Hi STG
Glad you got it sorted :)
Would you know if there is anything on the back/facing or if the person who sent you the image could look at the back. It might give some clues.
Gadget
-
The backing is just brown paper and has a postcard-size piece of paper stuck on it, on which is written his name, date of attestation and date of discharge.
The picture was hanging at my GF's house until his death in 1966. GF had eight children. The picture now belongs to the son of GF's eldest daughter. I think the handwriting on the card belongs to the daughter of GF's second daughter. I think another cousin (I've got loads, want to borrow any?), son of GF's fourth daughter, has a photo of GGF in uniform, and has been promising for years to "look stuff out of the loft", but keeps failing to do so.
In fact, I'm going to ring him now and chivvy, chivvy.
-
Good evening,
You would appear to have a 64 gun 3rd or 4th rate frigate. The ships you name are as follows;
Formidable 1854 84 gun 2nd rate, so too big
Charybdis 1859 screw corvette, too small and no funnel shown in picture
Brisk 1851 14 gun sloop, far too small
Euryalus 1853 35 gun screw frigate (5th or 6th rate) no funnel shown
Pylades 1854 screw corvette again so again too small and again the funnel
Corvettes, sloops, brigs etc were unrated as they were too small and lightly armed. They were not included in the line of battle but used as signal ships or messengers etc.
It could be that he was looking at another ship in harbour and not his own.
John915
-
Wow, John, thank you.
Still trying to ID the flags.
-
This site may be able to help in identifying the flags: http://www.flaginstitute.org
The National Museum of the the Royal Navy might also be able to assist you: www.royalnavalmuseum.org
-
I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with John915; if it is any of the ships he served on then Formidable is the front runner. HMS Ganges was the sister to Formidable, just compare the photograph of Ganges with the needlework.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:HMSGanges.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:HMSGanges.png)
Martin
-
Good afternoon,
I'm afraid I have to disagree with Martin, yes they do look very alike but then so did many other ships of the line. Ganges, like Formidable, was an 84 gun 2nd rate, she became a training ship in 1865; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Ganges_(shore_establishment).
The ship pictured shows only 30 gun ports, double it and allow for bow and stern chasers and you have a 64 at the most. It looks very alike but is considerably smaller so only a 3rd or 4th rate.
The picture also shows windows under the poop deck whereas Ganges shows gun ports making 42 in view.
John915
-
For some reason the link doesn't work properly, you need to click on where it says "did you mean"
John915
-
This may help as well but will have a go myself; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_maritime_signal_flags
John915
-
Good evening,
Well, have tried deciphering the flags and all I get is gobbledegook. Some letters, some numbers and some that don't appear on the list at all. There were several different flag sets used by the RN during the 1800s and then you have to take into account the code books used.
John915
-
hi all
regarding the flag situation be careful what you look at as the signal flags have changed and been added to since the picure was done you need to find a site that has the flags for the nelson era late 1700,s early 1800,s I,ve tried my self over the last 2 days to find a list of them but haven,t found a complete set , I did wonder if the picture flags spelled out nelsons message before Trafalgar ,
England expects that everyman will do his duty but looking at Wikipedia and other sites it,s no where close in fact it looks like just a jumble of flags there,s at least 2 union flags an admiral of the white flag the top of the main mast has a royal standard on it , none the less a very nice picture .
regards
trevor
ps stg
you asked earlier about the black and white sides of the ship when the ships gun ports were closed she would have a solid stripes of white but when the ports were open it shows a chequered effect this made it easier in the heat of battle to distinguish the English ships from the enemy , the admiralty allowed some leeway on colours used , nelson had his ships painted yellow and black but later on a more standard colouring was the black and white stripe .
pps
johns just beaten me too it but I agree with him re flags
-
Good evening,
It occurred to me whilst doing this that signals sent between ships were always hoisted in vertical strings. It was also done in a set order, main mast, foremast, mizzen mast, peak, starboard of main, port of main, stbd of fore, port of fore, stbd of mizzen and port of mizzen.
The starboard and port strings would hang from the ends of the yards. Nelsons message was sent using Pophams code. Sets of numbers up to 250 ? each meant a word or phrase (253 was ENGLAND). Duty had to be spelled out and hung from stbd of fore 4-D, port of fore 21-U, stbd of mizzen 19T and port of mizzen 24Y.
John915
-
quite right john915 I,m no expert but using the normal port and stb lines would be a bit elaborate for the pic this looks more like a fore and aft string of flags seen more at a review .
regards
trevor
-
Thanks for all the input, peeps, especially trying to decipher the flags.
Am way out of my depth with this, so have contacted Chatham Dockyard to see if they can help further.
I'll let you know if I solve the puzzle.
Thanks again
STG
-
Good evening,
I think you are correct Trevor, I'm sure that even in the present day ships are dressed fore and aft in port for special occasions. Whether or not what is shown actually means anything I don't know, probably like the picture, a load of gobbledegook.
Just for the record, using a flag set from 1913, the flags shown are as follows starting from the bow;
Preparative, F, UNION JACK, U, E OR PENDANT 1, X, 2, N?, 3, 4 (upside down) PENDANT 4, UNION JACK, D?, H?, *, V, *, 4 not fully visible, 9, PENDANT 8, A OR 6, INTERROGATIVE, 5, Y, PENDANT 4, *.
The numbers are square and the pendant numbers are the long pointed flags. The asterisks are flags that don't appear to be on any list. Iv'e used the 1913 set because that's the only complete set I can find or make sense of. The 2 larger UJs near the bow are actually on shore.
If there are any ex navy signallers out there, perhaps they could give us their professional opinion.
John915