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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Gillg on Saturday 17 August 13 10:43 BST (UK)

Title: Minimum info, but could use suggestions
Post by: Gillg on Saturday 17 August 13 10:43 BST (UK)
A relative of my mother was always called "Cousin Sarah", although it seems more likely that she was the cousin of someone in an earlier generation.  I know that Sarah was married to a Jack Kershaw and that they lived in Royton near Oldham in the 1940s, where Jack was manager of the Yorkshire Penny Bank.  I don't know Sarah's maiden name and of course Jack could be a shortened version of James, John or Jacob.  In addition, it was quite common for people in the  family to be given two forenames and then called by the second of these names.  Sarah was probably born in the 1870s in Newhey, Rochdale or Oldham.

How on earth do I proceed in finding out Sarah's maiden name?  I have tried FreeBMD for Kershaw marriages in the early 1900s, but it's a very common name in the area.  There is a possibility that she may be the daughter of Alice nee Wild, born c 1840, but I don't know who Alice married - there are far too many marriages of Alice Wild in the Rochdale/Oldham area to find the right one.

Can anyone suggest a way forward for me, please?

Gillg
Title: Re: Minimum info, but could use suggestions
Post by: touchofmange on Saturday 17 August 13 11:27 BST (UK)
hi try for kershaw births to the parents and see if you get any couples, try it on familysearch. If you can find some with the right parents then they probably got married before the first child.

when you say you checked freebmd, you know you can find the spouse or spouse with other entries by clicking on the end number?  if there are no sarah's it's not him.

i don't know if you have a county bmd but if you do, go back to the spouse names of alice wild, put the surname in and sarah for christian and see if you get wild as a maiden name.

you just have to try and be logical about the search, it takes some getting used to, but look on the bright side you have the information, you just have to do the ground work.

 :)
Title: Re: Minimum info, but could use suggestions
Post by: SmallTownGirl on Saturday 17 August 13 11:30 BST (UK)
If he was a bank manager, there might well have been an obituary for him in the local paper, or at least a notice of his death.  If so that might give details of his children and then you could try to find the births of those children, SN Kershaw and that would give you the mother's maiden name.



Title: Re: Minimum info, but could use suggestions
Post by: aghadowey on Saturday 17 August 13 11:37 BST (UK)
Previous thread: http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=355639.0

There was a (female) Kershaw in the Trustee Dept. of the bank-
http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/41050/supplements/2452/page.pdf
Title: Re: Minimum info, but could use suggestions
Post by: Gillg on Sunday 18 August 13 15:31 BST (UK)
Thanks, everyone for your suggestions.  Sorry aghadowey, I should have referred to my earlier attempt to find this elusive lady. 

Sarah and Jack had no children, so can't trace back this way.
 
I believe Sarah would probably have been born in the mid to late 1870s and married in the early 1900s, maybe around 1910.

I have been right through the Lancashire Kershaw/Sarah marriages on FreeBMD and Lancs BMD - there are rather a lot of them in Rochdale and Oldham, the most likely places.
 
The idea of an obit for Jack sounds hopeful.  I'll see what local studies in Oldham can come up with.
 
Alice Wild was born around 1840 but there are even more Alice Wild marriages in the 1860s.  Obviously a popular name, and to be honest I am not absolutely sure that she was Sarah's mother.  Just a hunch because of a sampler by someone of that name which was left to us by our Sarah.

touchofmange - I will try to keep hopeful and logical, but I have been trying for years to solve this one.  If only I asked my mother more about this when she was alive! :(

Gillg
Title: Re: Minimum info, but could use suggestions
Post by: SWar on Monday 19 August 13 11:07 BST (UK)
Hi,

A few thoughts -

Are you able to check the 1911 census by occupation - chances are that Jack would have already been working in a bank.

Have you checked probate records for Sarah.  This one caught my eye in that they may be related.
‘Sarah Alice Kershaw of 426 Barnsley Road Halifax (wife of Frederic Kershaw) died 4th Dec.1939. Probate Wakefield 21st March to the Yorkshire Penny Bank. Effects £808 4s.11d’
And this one.
‘John Ernest Kershaw of 341 Bowling Hall Road Bradford died 3rd March 1947 at St Lukes Hospital Bradford.  Probate Wakefield 2nd June to the Yorkshire Penny Bank Ltd.
Effects £2354 10s 3d’

Also found this marriage which may fit in somewhere
Dec. Q 1930 Rochdale
Frank Kershaw to Alice Wild/Southwell
8c 114

Both Sarah and Jack could have been married previously and therefore the marriage could be a lot later than you think.

Sue
Title: Re: Minimum info, but could use suggestions
Post by: LizzieW on Monday 19 August 13 12:01 BST (UK)
Just slightly off topic -I'd never heard anyone in my family referred to as Cousin X, my mum and grandma always referred to female relatives as XY, Y being their maiden name whether married or not and mean as YY. (Which was very useful when researching the family tree)  However, my husband has a cousin who was always referred to as Cousin H.  I have no idea why they did that, there weren't any other Hs in the family.
Title: Re: Minimum info, but could use suggestions
Post by: mazi on Monday 19 August 13 13:12 BST (UK)
A quick thought, when you were promoted to Bank Manager it was almost never in the same branch that you had worked in before, and might have been a fair distance away, often a house nearby went with the job, as the "keyholder" in emergencies you had to be nearby, although this mostly died out in the 1950's
Title: Re: Minimum info, but could use suggestions
Post by: Gillg on Monday 19 August 13 15:14 BST (UK)
LizzieW
We had lots of these Cousins in my mother's family.  I suspect that the cousin relationship referred to my grandparents or gt-grandparents, and this title was handed down from one generation to the next, thus my grandfather's true cousin Annie, daughter of his mother's sister, had a daughter called Cousin Vera.  All three generations - my grandfather, my mother and my brother and I - always referred to them in this way and they would sign Christmas and birthday cards like that, too.  There were also two Cousin Gerties!  Maybe it's a northern thing or just a family quirk.

SWar
I don't believe Sarah, at least, was married before, but that's just a gut feeling.  Obviously she was getting on in age when I first knew her in the 1940s, though Jack was still at work in the Yorkshire Penny Bank.  They lived in a flat above the bank, which was just a tiny branch.  Actually, thinking about her age in the 1940s, maybe she was born a little later than I thought, in the 1880s, perhaps.  I have a rather formal photo of my grandparents with her and my mother, then aged about 4, which seems to indicate to me that she was still unmarried at that time (about 1905).

Thanks again, everyone.
Gillg  :)
Title: Re: Minimum info, but could use suggestions
Post by: heywood on Monday 19 August 13 15:20 BST (UK)
Hello,

if you recall them living on Rochdale Road, you may be to find the timing through electoral rolls.
That may then help with death records. I looked at cemetery records when you first posted but couldn't see anything to match. http://apps1.oldham.gov.uk/bacasweb/gensearch.aspx

Did they move in retirement, do you recall.

regards
heywood
Title: Re: Minimum info, but could use suggestions
Post by: Gillg on Monday 19 August 13 16:01 BST (UK)
Hi Heywood

I think Jack probably died soon after retirement (at what age did men retire then, I wonder?) and Sarah eventually moved into a care home. 

Electoral rolls - that's a good idea.

Thanks
Gillg
Title: Re: Minimum info, but could use suggestions
Post by: heywood on Monday 19 August 13 16:18 BST (UK)
Was the care home in Oldham or Rochdale? Any memories?
Title: Re: Minimum info, but could use suggestions
Post by: Gillg on Monday 19 August 13 16:21 BST (UK)
You're asking me to stretch my memory a long way, Heywood!  I was only a youngster at the time when my mother took me to visit her there, but I'm pretty sure it was in Oldham and was council run.

I have found at least 8 possible deaths for Jack in Oldham, which isn't very helpful.
Title: Re: Minimum info, but could use suggestions
Post by: heywood on Monday 19 August 13 16:34 BST (UK)
Righto - back to Electoral rolls!

His death may also be John Kershaw ::) of which there are more than a few.
Title: Re: Minimum info, but could use suggestions
Post by: Annette7 on Monday 19 August 13 19:26 BST (UK)
Have found a probate record and all the details seem to fit except for one - they had a son.

John Edmund Kershaw aged 71 of 687 Rochdale Road, Royton, Lancashire died 26/7/1947.   Probate Manchester 14 October to Sarah Kershaw, widow and Edward Kershaw, mechanical engineer.

According to marriages John Edmund Kershaw married a Sarah Heywood bc.1875 Failsworth in Jun.qtr.1900 Oldham - their son Edward b.Dec.qtr.1902 Oldham.

Looked through probates as one would think that someone employed by a bank would leave a will.   His age seems to fit, lived Rochdale Road, had a wife Sarah and both bc.1875/6.   The Edward listed must be their son as shown on census - but you say they didn't have any children??

Annette
Title: Re: Minimum info, but could use suggestions
Post by: aghadowey on Monday 19 August 13 20:02 BST (UK)
Have found a probate record and all the details seem to fit except for one - they had a son.

John Edmund Kershaw aged 71 of 687 Rochdale Road, Royton, Lancashire died 26/7/1947.   Probate Manchester 14 October to Sarah Kershaw, widow and Edward Kershaw, mechanical engineer.

According to marriages John Edmund Kershaw married a Sarah Heywood bc.1875 Failsworth in Jun.qtr.1900 Oldham - their son Edward b.Dec.qtr.1902 Oldham.

Looked through probates as one would think that someone employed by a bank would leave a will.   His age seems to fit, lived Rochdale Road, had a wife Sarah and both bc.1875/6.   The Edward listed must be their son as shown on census - but you say they didn't have any children??

Annette

How can you be sure that the Edward Kershaw mentioned in the probate record and the Edward Kershaw born 1902 are 1) the same person and 2) their son?

Added- I suspect that John Edmund Kershaw and wife Sarah may not be the correct couple, which means that Edward (b.1902) could be their son.
Title: Re: Minimum info, but could use suggestions
Post by: Annette7 on Monday 19 August 13 20:51 BST (UK)
aghadowey, obviously I can't be sure that the Edward Kershaw shown in probate record was John Edmund Kershaw's son but knowing he did have just one child, son Edward b.1902, it seems a reasonable assumption.

Nor can I be sure that this relates to the couple in question but too many details all match the given facts so far which is why I had to post it!  Surely you can see that? 

Annette





Title: Re: Minimum info, but could use suggestions
Post by: aghadowey on Monday 19 August 13 21:00 BST (UK)
Found some details earlier which seem to indicate that John Edmund and Sarah are the parents of Edward but John isn't the Jack Kershaw who worked in the bank. Will see if I can get it again and will post new information.
Title: Re: Minimum info, but could use suggestions
Post by: aghadowey on Monday 19 August 13 21:43 BST (UK)
John Edmund Kershaw married Apr./June 1900 Oldham district (vol. 8d page 1034) to Sarah Heywood. Marriage took place at Christ Church, Chadderton according to Lancs FreeBMD

Here's Edward Kershaw, age 8, in 1911 census- https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XW1X-BSV
Lancs FreeBMD gives mother's maiden name as Heywood which fits with above marriage.

1901 census- Wardle, Lancs. (in household of Richard Kershaw)
son John Edmund Kershaw, age 20, single, born Rochdale, ? [felting?] miller

Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

1911 census for this John Edmund Kershaw would give his occupation.
Title: Re: Minimum info, but could use suggestions
Post by: SWar on Monday 19 August 13 22:11 BST (UK)
Hi,

Would it help to find their burial place?

Found this site
http://apps1.oldham.gov.uk/bacasweb/gensearch.aspx

If you type in 'John Kershaw' there is an interesting burial on Page 3
John aged 76 buried 2.4.1955
Sarah aged 87 buried 30.9.1965
Ann aged 63 buried 12.12.1906

Doesn't help with Sarah's maiden name though

Sue
Title: Re: Minimum info, but could use suggestions
Post by: SWar on Monday 19 August 13 22:37 BST (UK)
Hi,

Maybe....

Probate
Kershaw Sarah of Broadway Hostel Chadderton Oldham died 25th Sep 1965 Oldham and District General Hospital. Administration (with will) Manchester 26th October to Fred Hambler dye works tenter-in


FreeBMD marriage

Sept. Q 1908 Rochdale
Sarah Hambler
John Kershaw on the same page

Sue
Title: Re: Minimum info, but could use suggestions
Post by: SWar on Monday 19 August 13 23:10 BST (UK)
Freebmd
Births
Sarah Hambler
March Q 1878 Rochdale 8e 7
Fred Hambler
Dec. Q 1901 Rochdale 8e 1

Marriage
March Q 1874
David Hambler with
Alice Wild on same page 8e 132

All seems to fit - I hope it's right

Sue
Title: Re: Minimum info, but could use suggestions
Post by: Annette7 on Monday 19 August 13 23:13 BST (UK)
Sue - think you might have cracked it.

Sarah Hambler  bc.1878 was the daughter David Hambler and wife Alice.   David Hambler married Alice Wild Mar.qtr. 1874 Rochdale.

Annette

(We crossed)
Title: Re: Minimum info, but could use suggestions
Post by: Annette7 on Monday 19 August 13 23:19 BST (UK)
On 1881 Census - ref. RG11 - 4100 - 96 - 5 - at Butterworth, Lancs. - David and Alice have a son named John Kershaw Hambler.

Annette
Title: Re: Minimum info, but could use suggestions
Post by: heywood on Monday 19 August 13 23:46 BST (UK)
This looks very interesting.

I was browsing earlier and someone had posted re the Yorkshire Bank being next door to the Railway Hotel in Royton. The pub address is 1 Oldham Road and I looked in 1911 but I couldn't see a number 3. Nor can I find another reference to the bank address. (It is now a newer building and in the Precinct/ Rochdale Road).
The burial of John Kershaw gives an address of 9, Oldham Road Royton.
There was a care home called Broadway House.

However, Ann Kershaw (also in the grave) has an address of Dove Street Oldham. She is in 1901 with her son, John who is a velvet weaver.

I did wonder earlier if John was the caretaker of the bank with him living over the premises?
He may have moved on though, I do realise.

Title: Re: Minimum info, but could use suggestions
Post by: Gillg on Tuesday 20 August 13 09:55 BST (UK)
These last bits of information are amazing and would seem to fit the bill perfectly - I just knew Rootschatters would help me to solve this mystery.  There's a lot to take in and think about, but I'm pretty sure you have cracked it - thank you so much, everyone. 

Oldham archives replied very promptly that my information was too vague for them to find anything, except that the Yorkshire Penny Bank was not on Rochdale Road, but at 5, Oldham Road!

The Kershaw name appears on both sides of the family, Alice Wild being the daughter of Charles Wild and Hannah Kershaw, hence the John Kershaw Hambler.

Will think more later, but am so grateful.

Gillg ;D
Title: Re: Minimum info, but could use suggestions
Post by: heywood on Tuesday 20 August 13 10:05 BST (UK)
Hi again,
Just one more point. This is from memory last night, but Ann Kershaw was a single mum living in Crompton and was born in Butterworth also. Her parents were John and Sally Kershaw.

Regards
Heywood
Title: Re: Minimum info, but could use suggestions
Post by: Gillg on Tuesday 20 August 13 17:05 BST (UK)
Just working to fit in all the information you have provided and have the following questions:

1. Whose son was John Kershaw Hambler born Saddleworth W Yorks June Q 1862?  In the 1881 & 1891 he is shown as David & Alice's son, but they didn't marry till 1874.  Could he have been a nephew, perhaps with that Kershaw middle name?  Odd that he was born in Yorkshire. 

2.  What relation was Fred Hambler, executor of Sarah Hambler/Kershaw's will in 1908 to Sarah?  In 1911 he's living with his father Fred in Rochdale, Fred snr born Dec Q 1869, Fred jnr born Dec Q 1901. Was Fred snr perhaps another of Sarah's brothers. born before David & Alice married?

3.  How do we know that Ann Kershaw's parents were John & Sally?

Did David and Alice Hambler have any other children?

Not asking much, am I, but you have all been so skilful at finding stuff that I've been struggling to find for years.  Just waiting for my niece to send a photo of the Alice Wild sampler which Cousin Sarah left to our family to check the date on it.

Regards
Gillg
Title: Re: Minimum info, but could use suggestions
Post by: Annette7 on Tuesday 20 August 13 18:45 BST (UK)
Re. Question 1.

John Kershaw Hambler b.1862 Saddleworth was indeed a son of David by his first wife Elizabeth.

In 1871 he (35) in is Butterworth with his parents - Eli 62 and Sarah 63 - together with a brother William 26 and John K. Hambler 8  b. Saddleworth shown as grandson to Eli.   David is shown as a widower.
Ref.RG10 - 413 - 86 - 37

In 1861 David is in Saddleworth with new wife Elizabeth:

David Humble (this is as written)    25     b. Rochdale
Elizabeth Humble                           23     b. Oldham
Ref.RG9 - 3242 - 16 - 11.

David married as David Ambler - familysearch shows David Ambler, son of Eli Ambler, married Eliz'h Mills 8/1/1861 Oldham - both are single  - her father is shown as - wait for it - John Kershaw!! 

Her baptism is on familysearch: Elizabeth Mills bp.26/2/1837 Oldham, dau. of Mary Mills.

So, whether John Kershaw married Mary Mills after her birth or she just knew who her father was I have no idea.

Annette
Title: Re: Minimum info, but could use suggestions
Post by: heywood on Tuesday 20 August 13 18:55 BST (UK)
Here are the references for John and Ann
1901 3818/165/21
25 Dove Street Oldham
Ann Kershaw head single 58 yrs b Oldham
John Kershaw 22 yrs b Morecambe
Mary Ann Hawksworth 57 yrs lodger b Oldham

*At this moment am wondering if I knitted that last night- I can't find them in 1891  ::)

1881 4083/ 16/ 26
5 Gartside Street Oldham

Ann Kershaw 38 yrs b Butterworth
John 2 yrs b Morecambe

Will have to look later
Title: Re: Minimum info, but could use suggestions
Post by: heywood on Tuesday 20 August 13 19:27 BST (UK)
Somehow I thought you had a BIG file on Kershaws etc and wouldbe able to slot everything in place  ;D

This is who I thought Ann's parents are but I could be very wrong! There are a lot of Kershaws in Butterworth/Crompton and the wider area.

1851
Bardslys Crompton
John Kershaw 44 yrs Farmer of 10 acres b Butterworth
Saley Kershaw 48 yrs b Butterworth
Elizabeth Kershaw 14 yrs b Crompton
Ann Kershaw 8 yrs b Crompton
Eliza Cheatham lodger 18 yrs b Crompton

1855 Sarah Kershaw marries William Spencer

1861 Crompton
Sally Spencer 56 yrs
Ann Kershaw  18yrs
both born Butterworth

1871
They are still at Bardsleys, Crompton
Ann - head
Sally Spencer - stepmother  ???
Joseph Kershaw lodger 61 yrs born Butterworth
Title: Re: Minimum info, but could use suggestions
Post by: Annette7 on Tuesday 20 August 13 19:41 BST (UK)
Question 2 - Fred Hambler, senior was son of a James and Elizabeth - David and James do not appear to be brothers - cousins maybe?

Certainly, there seems no real close connection between Sarah and Fred.   

David and Alice also had a son Charles Eli Hambler bc.1875 so their only children together were  Charles and Sarah.

Question 3 - I don't believe that Sally was Ann's mother.   In 1871 census with Ann she is Sally Spencer 67 Wid. but shown as Step mother. - RG10 - 4110 - 72 - 5

In 1861 Sally Spencer is head of household with Ann Kershaw 18 daughter.

1851 - Crompton, Lancs. - ref. HO107 - 2243 - 412 - 41

John Kershaw    44    b. Braiseworth, Lancs.
Saley Kershaw   48         ditto
Elizabeth Kershaw  14    b. Crompton
Ann Kershaw 8   b. Crompton
Eliza Cheatham  18   lodger    b. Crompton

There's a marriage in Dec.qtr.Rochdale when 2 on the page are a John Kershaw and Sally Anderton so this could be when step mother Sally came into the picture.

Ann's birthplace shown as either Crompton or Butterworth and I can't so far find any obvious baptism for her or her older sister Elizabeth to ascertain who their mother was.

Annette

(Heywood has nipped in before me but will post this anyway).
Title: Re: Minimum info, but could use suggestions
Post by: heywood on Tuesday 20 August 13 19:46 BST (UK)
It's all confusing and I do hope it helps -

1891 has this family on Dove Street

Sally Hawksworth 57 yrs head single b Oldham
Mary Ann Hawksworth 46 yrs daughter single b Oldham
John Henry Hawksworth 22 yrs son b Oldham
John Keshaw 12 yrs adopted son born Huddersfield Yorkshire
Betsy Taylor 26 yrs lodger

Clearly Mary Ann cannot be the daughter of Sally. (This is not the previous Sally Kershaw/Spencer)
Mary Ann was lodging with Ann and John in 1901

I think Ann Kershaw born abt 1844 Butterworth is a servant in Ashton under Lyne (not too far from Oldham)
Title: Re: Minimum info, but could use suggestions
Post by: heywood on Tuesday 20 August 13 19:48 BST (UK)
(Heywood has nipped in before me but will post this anyway).

I only nipped in with the Ann/John information because I was the one who asserted that her parents were John and Sally. I thought I had better explain myself  :)
Title: Re: Minimum info, but could use suggestions
Post by: heywood on Wednesday 21 August 13 00:10 BST (UK)

Question 3 - I don't believe that Sally was Ann's mother.   In 1871 census with Ann she is Sally Spencer 67 Wid. but shown as Step mother. - RG10 - 4110 - 72 - 5

In 1861 Sally Spencer is head of household with Ann Kershaw 18 daughter.

1851 - Crompton, Lancs. - ref. HO107 - 2243 - 412 - 41

John Kershaw    44    b. Braiseworth, Lancs.
Saley Kershaw   48         ditto
Elizabeth Kershaw  14    b. Crompton
Ann Kershaw 8   b. Crompton
Eliza Cheatham  18   lodger    b. Crompton

There's a marriage in Dec.qtr.Rochdale when 2 on the page are a John Kershaw and Sally Anderton so this could be when step mother Sally came into the picture.

Ann's birthplace shown as either Crompton or Butterworth and I can't so far find any obvious baptism for her or her older sister Elizabeth to ascertain who their mother was.

Annette

(Heywood has nipped in before me but will post this anyway).

The marriage December quarter 1848 is between Sally Anderton and Joseph Ashton  :(
Title: Re: Minimum info, but could use suggestions
Post by: heywood on Wednesday 21 August 13 00:25 BST (UK)
If the marriage is correct between William Spencer and Sarah Kershaw - she was Sarah Butterworth.
There is a marriage in 1840 between a John Kershaw and a Sarah Butterworth.

I can't find any details re this marriage and perhaps at the moment, these folk are too far removed from the query.
We don't know yet whether it is the right Ann Kershaw, I suppose.
Title: Re: Minimum info, but could use suggestions
Post by: SWar on Wednesday 21 August 13 09:52 BST (UK)
What a complicated family!

There is a marriage in Rochdale March Q 1895
John Hambler with Sarah Butterworth

This couple are on the 1911 census with a 9 year old son called Fred

Wondered if this John is the John K who was Sarah's half brother

Just a thought

Sue
Title: Re: Minimum info, but could use suggestions
Post by: Gillg on Wednesday 21 August 13 10:07 BST (UK)
These Kershaws get everywhere!  I know it's a very common name in the Rochdale/Oldham area, but hadn't quite expected these complications.

The information that you have all found for me is amazing.  I'm going to sit down with a very large sheet of paper and try to draw up a family tree for Cousin Sarah's family.  At least I now know thanks to you that she was my grandmother's cousin.  I remember her as a very sweet old lady who nevertheless dominated her husband.  Of him I only remember his walrus moustache!

Many, many thanks once again.

Gillg :)
Title: Re: Minimum info, but could use suggestions
Post by: heywood on Wednesday 21 August 13 12:23 BST (UK)
Good luck with the plan and please let us know if it works out as you hope. :)
Title: Re: Minimum info, but could use suggestions
Post by: Gillg on Wednesday 21 August 13 14:38 BST (UK)
Update...

Have just found someone on Genes R who is researching the Hambler family and includes David, Sarah and several generations of Johns on her tree, though not Alice Wild.  Perhaps she can add something to the tale if she replies to my query. 

I do wonder where John Kershaw was born, as his mother Ann states on the 1881 age 2 and 1901 age 22 that he was born in Morecambe.  Can't see any JKs on the 1901 born in Morecambe, and looking on FreeBMD can only see one from Sept Q 1878 under Lancaster, which is in any case a little too early.  In the main most of these John Ks come from the Rochdale/Oldham area.

Gillg
Title: Re: Minimum info, but could use suggestions
Post by: Gillg on Monday 26 August 13 11:34 BST (UK)
More complications following a reply from my Hambler contact, who says that John Kershaw Hambler was the daughter of Alice Kershaw, who she says was David Hambler's first wife and who died in Mar Q 1862!  I cannot find such a marriage, also JKH was born in June Q 1862, whilst Elizabeth was still alive.  She died in Saddleworth in Sep Q 1863. 

Oh, these Kershaws!  so far I have

1) Hannah Kershaw, wife of Charles Wild and mother of Alice Wild
2) Elizabeth Mills whose father's name was given on her marriage entry as John Kershaw
3) John Kershaw Hambler, whose mother may have been Elizabeth Mills/Hambler or Alice    Kershaw.
4) Alice Kershaw, possible mother of JKH; her parents are given by my contact as Thomas & Mary Kershaw
5) John Kershaw, son of unmarried Ann Kershaw, who married Sarah Hambler, daughter of David Hambler and Alice Wild

I was wondering if Alice Kershaw was a sister/half sister of Elizabeth Mills, who died in childbirth and whose child, John Kershaw, was taken in by David and Elizabeth, however, that doesn't seem to work as the death of Alice Kershaw in Mar Q 62 is followed by the birth of JKH in JunQ 1862!  Although John's name is registered in Saddleworth as John Kershaw Hambler, I can't find a birth/baptism record on Family Search for either a John Kershaw or John Kershaw Hambler in 1862 or thereabouts.

Just how many Kershaw families are involved here, I wonder?  More work to do, obviously.

SWar #38
Yes, the marriage of John Hambler and Sarah Butterworth in 1895 is that of John Kershaw Hambler.  It was possibly their son Fred who was executor on his aunt Sarah Hambler/Kershaw's will

Gillg
Title: Re: Minimum info, but could use suggestions
Post by: heywood on Monday 26 August 13 12:49 BST (UK)
Hello again  :)

I steered clear of the Hambler/Mills/Kershaw bit earlier.
However, on the face of it, you have:
1861 marriage of David Ambler and Elizabeth Mills/Kershaw
1862 birth of John Kershaw Hambler with mother's maiden name Kershaw
1863 death of Elizabeth Hambler

Which seems to work

Unless there are certificates to prove otherwise.

Heywood
Title: Re: Minimum info, but could use suggestions
Post by: SWar on Monday 26 August 13 13:45 BST (UK)
Wow - Heywood that looks good

I was just typing - saying I couldn't find an earlier marriage for David Hambler and you seem to have cracked it.

Marriage Rochdale June Q 1857
Elizabeth Kershaw with Robert Mills on same page

Several possible deaths for Robert
March Q1859
Sep. Q 1861
June Q 1862

Sue
Title: Re: Minimum info, but could use suggestions
Post by: heywood on Monday 26 August 13 13:56 BST (UK)
I also was wondering re a marriage for Elizabeth. I just found the baptism for John Kershaw Hambler with  mum Elizabeth  :)

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/JQ3M-5YP

The earlier marriage has been mentioned in the thread but your info looks worth a follow up.
Title: Re: Minimum info, but could use suggestions
Post by: heywood on Monday 26 August 13 14:03 BST (UK)
No, that marriage is no good. Elizabeth is 29 yrs and father is James. Robert Mills is a widower.
Title: Re: Minimum info, but could use suggestions
Post by: SWar on Monday 26 August 13 23:21 BST (UK)
Just for info. if you haven't already got it
David and Elizabeth Hambler on the 1861 census
RG9/3242/16/11

Think you really need John K Hambler's birth cert.

Sue
Title: Re: Minimum info, but could use suggestions
Post by: heywood on Tuesday 27 August 13 07:45 BST (UK)
Just for info. if you haven't already got it
David and Elizabeth Hambler on the 1861 census
RG9/3242/16/11

Think you really need John K Hambler's birth cert.

Sue

Hi Sue,
that would be ideal but his baptism says mother is Elizabeth and it does fit with the time line.

heywood
Title: Re: Minimum info, but could use suggestions
Post by: SWar on Tuesday 27 August 13 10:33 BST (UK)
Here is the marriage that Heywood found -

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NNM8-FW8

It says Elizabeth is single - so does that mean that her mother was a Mills who married John Kershaw after Elizabeth was born?

Sue
Title: Re: Minimum info, but could use suggestions
Post by: SWar on Tuesday 27 August 13 13:47 BST (UK)
I wonder if this fits in somewhere

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FMB8-PG8

Sue
Title: Re: Minimum info, but could use suggestions
Post by: SWar on Tuesday 27 August 13 14:43 BST (UK)
The only likely baptism I can find for Elizabeth

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/J7VR-MD9

Sue
Title: Re: Minimum info, but could use suggestions
Post by: Gillg on Tuesday 27 August 13 15:41 BST (UK)
Just a brief summary for anyone else who is following this topic:

My original search was to find out who “Cousin Sarah” was and how she was related to Alice Wild, whose sampler was passed down to my mother.

Charles Wild(e) of Rochdale c1800-1867 married Hannah Kershaw of Newhey 1804-?1893 in Rochdale in 1831.

Their children were James c1831, William 1837, Alice 1840 and Betty 1843.
Alice married David Hambler in Rochdale in 1874.  She was his second wife, the first being Elizabeth Mills, who died in 1863 in Saddleworth.  David and Elizabeth’s son John Kershaw Hambler was born in Saddleworth in 1862.  Elizabeth’s father’s name was given in marriage records as John Kershaw.  David and Alice then had two children, Charles Eli 1875-1925 and Sarah 1878-1965.

Sarah Hambler, daughter of David & Alice, married John Kershaw 1880-1955 in Rochdale in 1908.  John was the son of single mother Ann Kershaw.

Sarah Hambler/Kershaw, wife of John Kershaw, was the daughter of Alice Wild/Hambler.  Alice’s younger sister was Betty Wild 1843-1899.  Betty was my gt-grandmother.  Her daughter Sarah Hannah Bolton was therefore a cousin of Alice’s daughter Sarah Hambler/Kershaw – hence the title “Cousin Sarah”, used not only by her real cousin, Sarah Hannah, but by Sarah Hannah’s children and grandchildren (me), too.

There seem to be three Kershaw families involved here!

Obviously other interesting issues and details were raised by diligent RootsChatters Heywood and SWar, but I think this is the centre of the search.  I am really grateful to them for helping me so generously.

Meanwhile another little teaser –
The Alice Wilde sampler is dated 1867.  If it was indeed worked by our Alice, she would have been 27 at the time, unmarried and working long hours in the cotton mill.  Most samplers were worked by children, I believe, so could there have been another later Alice…….?  (There are numerous potential candidates in Rochdale and Oldham, with or without the “e” on Wild.)

Gillg
Title: Re: Minimum info, but could use suggestions
Post by: newbeltane on Saturday 07 September 13 16:49 BST (UK)
Hi

Just joined this site and did a search on Royton (my home town) and came across your post. There is a Dr Kershaw's Hospice in Royton (see http://www.drkershawshospice.org.uk/). There may be some family link there. Also, Saddleworth is near to Oldham (Royton is now part of Oldham) but technically in Yorkshire. Its not uncommon for folk to be born in Yorkshire and move to Lancashire for employment. My own ancestors did this when moving from silk industry to cotton industry for work.

I will ask my parents if they know anyone related to the people you have mentioned.

Steven
Title: Re: Minimum info, but could use suggestions
Post by: newbeltane on Saturday 07 September 13 16:52 BST (UK)
Further info on Dr Kershaw and the hospice:
Administrative history:
Dr John Kershaw (1840 - 1909) was at one time the Medical Officer of Health for Royton. When he died, he bequeathed almost his entire legacy for the establishment of a hospital for the people of the district. Although discussion began almost immediately on the subject, it was many years before the hospital actually opened.
The hospital was completed in 1929 by Whitworth, Whittaker and Co Ltd, and was built and equipped for a total cost of £14,850. The architect was Mr Sidney Moss of Manchester. In 1930, a charity was registered under the name 'Dr Kershaw's Cottage Hospital'. The Charity Commissioners' Scheme for the Hospital stipulated that it was to be administered by a committee of nine people. This committee, in accordance with Dr Kershaw's will, was not to include any Clergymen or Socialists.
Dr Kershaw's Hospital finally opened at Turf Lane in Royton on 28 February 1931. At that time, it had five male beds, five female and two private. Patients were admitted on the recommendation of their doctor, and they continued to be treated by that doctor while in the hospital. They still had to pay their doctor's fee, and, initially, they had to pay ten shillings a week towards their maintenance (this was reduced to five shillings in 1937). Preference was given to the residents of Royton, and those who did not live in Royton had to pay more. The hospital was intended for medical and surgical patients only. Infectious, mental, chronic and incurable cases were not admitted. In 1938, the hospital was extended.
Despite the protests of local people and the management committee, the hospital was transferred to the newly formed NHS in 1948, but seems to have continued running in much the same way as before. In the 1970s, Patrick Steptoe established his human in-vitro fertilisation clinic at Dr Kershaw's, and the world's first test tube baby was conceived there in 1977. In 1984, Dr Kershaw's was removed from the control of the local GPs and placed under the Area Health Authority who designated it a centre for geriatric care only. In 1986, the hospital was closed 'temporarily', but by the time it re-opened in 1989, it had been handed over to the Oldham Hospice Appeal and renamed Dr Kershaw's Hospice.
Oldham Local Studies:
A History of Dr Kershaw's Cottage Hospital, Royton by G M Hargreaves (1999) (NH)
Dr Kershaw's Cottage Hospital in Varley's Royton Annual 1931 (FW72)
Dr Kershaw's Chronicle produced by Dr Kershaw's Hospice, Oct 1992, Jun 1994 (NH) pamphlet
Dr Kershaw's Christmas Chronicle produced by Dr Kershaw's Hospice, Dec 1993 (NH) pamphlet
Dr Kershaw's Hospice - for the People of Oldham District and Middleton (NH)
Various items on the History of Dr Kershaw's Hospice - newspaper cuttings, photocopies, etc (NH) pamphlet
Title: Re: Minimum info, but could use suggestions
Post by: Gillg on Sunday 08 September 13 13:12 BST (UK)
Hi, Steven

This is all really interesting and though it may possibly be relating to a family member I'm mindful of the fact that there are an awful lot of Kershaw families in the area.  As I mentioned in my earlier message, there are three possibly quite separate Kershaw families on this side of my tree alone.  I'll have to do some following up, but I'm pretty sure my John/Jack Kershaw was an only child and he and his wife had no children.

What an interesting fellow Dr John Kershaw was - I'd really like to have him in my tree, though I think most of my Kershaws were millworkers.  Although I'm a Rochdalian by birth, so lived just a few miles away from Royton, I had never heard of the hospital/hospice.

My maternal gt-gt-grandfather and family also made the journey across the Pennines to find work.  As a Lancastrian I was not at all happy to discover that I had Yorkshire blood in me.  The folk memory of the Wars of the Roses still persists, and not just in cricket!

Thanks very much.
Gillg
Title: Re: Minimum info, but could use suggestions
Post by: xxfoghornxx on Friday 27 September 13 07:41 BST (UK)
i was wondering is there anyone looking for a eli hambler born about 1775 and his son eli born about 1807 born in the milnrow area ?
Title: Re: Minimum info, but could use suggestions
Post by: Gillg on Friday 27 September 13 11:00 BST (UK)
xxfoghornxxx

This looks like the same family!  Eli Hambler born c1809 was the father of David Hambler, husband of Alice Wild.  I believe his wife was called Mary, but I don't have any details of Eli senior.  The son of David and Alice was called Charles Eli (1875-1925).  He was the brother of my elusive relative Cousin Sarah, married name Kershaw.  If you can struggle through all the pages of this topic you will see that Sarah was the cousin of my grandmother.

I have more information on the family from another person interested in them.  You can send me a PM if you like.

Gillg