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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Dublin => Topic started by: mikebro on Tuesday 13 August 13 22:55 BST (UK)
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Looking for some advice.
I found my great grandfather/mother on the 1901 census. (http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/North_City/Capel_Street/1332296/) with their 5 children. There is no record of the family on the 1911 census. I also found a death record & burial for Bridget in 1909, died in the North Dublin union workhouse and buried in Glasnevin.
The question is what happened to the children, particularly Anne who would have been 14 at the time of the 1911 census (so not married and therefore no change of name).
My assumption is either death or emigration. Am I correct do you think? Where could I search for her. I looked at Ellis Island records and also Australian 1911 census records with no luck.
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People in institutions (workhouses, hospital, school, gaols, army barracks, etc.) should be listed in 1911 census under initials. Have you tried that yet?
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I didn't know that was how they were recorded. I checked for A Brophy but no luck. I will try the rest of the family.
Thanks
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Initials were used for both first and surname, so Anne Brophy should appear as A. B., etc.
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Possibly Michael Brophy in 1911-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Mansion_House/Mercer_Street__Upper/75220
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I think this is Edward - died 8/8/16 'Son of the late William and Bridget Brophy, of Dublin'
http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/3050675/BROPHY,%20EDWARD
further information I found on Royal Navy War Graves Roll is
DOB - 6 Aug 1892, Dublin, Ireland - Cause of Death "Killed or died by means other than disease, accident or enemy action" He was buried at sea, the location not recorded.
It lists his next of kin as a son named Michael at 21 Upper Gloucester St Dublin.
Any DaS I have seen would at least record the ocean or sea or closest coastline, you could try track where the Juno was in August 1916.
EDIT - just spotted another record that gives his cause of death as 'Accidental Drowning'
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aghadowey
Thanks - that Michael Brophy is my grandfather.
No luck with the searching using just initials - the are three females with the A B initials, born in dublin and RC but none are 14. All are either in hospital or workhouse school. I guess at the time, 14 would be quite old for a girl of working class background to be in a school.
There are 6 Brophy females, 14 y/o, born in dublin and RC but all are daughters of the head of household and none are Anne.
Possible that Anne was adopted? She would have been about 9 when her mother went into the workhouse. How easy would it be to follow an adoption from those times?
Thanks for the advice
Mike
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hasta
Thanks very much. Looks like that is my relative.
regards
Mike
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Possible that Anne was adopted? She would have been about 9 when her mother went into the workhouse. How easy would it be to follow an adoption from those times?
There was no such thing officially as adoption until much later- in this period it would have been an informal arrangement by family, friends or neighbours to look after a child. If she was taken in by another family she could be listed in 1911 under their surname, as their daughter, etc.
Have you checked to see if Anne could have died after 1901?
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As per Aghadowey's 1911 census return for Michael Brophy marriage in Harrington st 8 Sep 1907
Michael Brophy 51 Bishop st son of William Brophy and Bridget Fenlon of 23 Winetavern st to
Rose McCall 30 Lr Clanbrassil st dtr of John McCall and Anne Murphy 6 upr Mercer st
witness Hubert Kennedy 31 Kingsland Parade and Agnes McCann 35 Synge st.
checking the 1901/1911 census for Winetavern st there dosent seem to be a number 23 as it starts at 27.
baptism ST Michan 1876
Michael Henry Brophy
born the
7 Jan 1876 8 Linehall st mothers name
Margaret Fenlon but other child born same address of Bridget Fenlon.
on the 1911 census there is a Cissy Brophy age 16 servant girl no notable match for her on 1901 census.
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you might want to check this out, Irish Prison Registers ,Michael Brophy Bishop St also known as Rose Brophy [next of kin ] in 1908 at Kilmainham.
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Roseanna McCall born 19 Oct 1876.
at the marriage of William Wynne and Anne Murphy in Harrington st Church 1902 she's a witness and gives her address as 19 Gordons Place.
1901 census of 19 Gordons Place shows
Anne McCall age 51 a widow
Christopher son 19
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aghadowey
I cant find a record of death on Familysearch.org
Findmypast has an Annie b.1896 d. 1951
but if that is her, where was she in the intervening years?
dathai
Roseanne is my grandmother. while Anne McCall is her mother, Christy was Rosanne's brother - my grand uncle.
I had most of the other info but I have Michael Francis Brophy born 1882 rather than your Michael Henry Brophy born 1876. The census records would put it at 82+/-1
Not sure what you mean by "mothers name
Margaret Fenlon but other child born same address of Bridget Fenlon."
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@dathai re prison records - not sure I want to check the prison records lol. There are loads of records on familiysearch for brophy on the legal/prison records - obscene and abusive language, soliciting, drunk & disorderly and even stealing a greyhound.
Seriously though, they dont give addresses or ages so it's difficult to know if they are my direct relatives.
Mike
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Mikebro, this is what i found on Irish Genealogy.
Michael Henry Brophy 8 Linenhall st 10 jan 1876 son wm brophy and Margaret Fenlon sp Anna Brophy.
Catherine Brophy 8 Linenhall st 12 apr 1878 dtr wm brophy and Bridget Fenlon.
Michael Francis Brophy 33 Usher Quay son wm brophy and Bridget Knelon sps Michael Brophy/Eleanor Fitzgerald. also
on Family Search ,Irish Prison Registers,
Michael Brophy born 1882 Arran Quay
residence Bishop St next of kin Rose Brophy
Kiilmainham 1908.
I will let you draw your own conclusions on these , regards Dathai
edit Michael Francis Brophy born 19 May 1882.
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Strangely enough, when I searched Irish Genealogy church records for Brophy I couldn't find the ones listed about although using Google ('brophy & linenhall st') gets the same records-
Michl Henry Brophy- http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/bbf8e50259825
Catherine Brophy- http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/eaa90a0261371
Michaelis Fransiscus Brophy (parents- Gulielmus Brophy & Bridgids Knelon)- http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/a9bada0287972
In addition there looks to be another child in the database- John Joseph Brophy of 8 Linenhall St. with parents Wm. Brophy & Bridget Fennelly:
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/0c0a090262824
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Birth registrations-
Catherine (1878) https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FGKG-SBR
James (1880) https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FGG5-M5W
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Aghadowey i first searched under Brophy /Fenlon no christian names ,then WM Brophy/Brigid no last name and then under the addresses,i did spot the Fennelly birth but as you can view the register it is written clear and distinct i did'nt think it could be a mistranscription. Dathai
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I searched earlier for just Brophy/Dublin, Brophy/fenlon, etc. and didn't get those results although after I got one via Google I was then able to search database from there and did get them so I suspect some sort of glitch. Now, however, I've re-done the search of Brophy/Fenton and got only 4 items-
1) Michael Brophy's 1907 marriage to Rosa McCall
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/0a76090006183
2) Michael's 1876 baptism
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/bbf8e50259825
3) Catherine's 1878 baptism
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/eaa90a0261371
4) baptism for John Joseph in 1885-
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/0a72b10205825
The last one is not the same John Joseph born and baptised in 1880 so the earlier one likely died and the parents re-used the names.
It's also possible that they had 2 sons named Michael.
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Michael Brophy married Roaseanne McCall in 1909. Her address is listed as 30 LWR CLANBRASSIL STREET. When I browse the 1911 census, there is a gap in the numbering of the houses on UPPER clanbrassil st - it goes from 29 to 31, no 30. The numbering on lower clanbrassil st is 56 -121. So is this a mistake on the register i.e. it should have been 30 upper clanbrassil st? And why is there no 30 upper clanbrasil st on the census - was it empty at the time perhaps? Fallen down?
Any thoughts?
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Michael Brophy married Roaseanne McCall in 1909. Her address is listed as 30 LWR CLANBRASSIL STREET. When I browse the 1911 census, there is a gap in the numbering of the houses on UPPER clanbrassil st - it goes from 29 to 31, no 30. The numbering on lower clanbrassil st is 56 -121. So is this a mistake on the register i.e. it should have been 30 upper clanbrassil st? And why is there no 30 upper clanbrasil st on the census - was it empty at the time perhaps? Fallen down?
Any thoughts?
Use the Browse Census feature for 1911 census to see if there was a number 30.
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aghadowey
I browsed both the 1901 and 1911 census and both of them skip number 30 for some reason. So it's unlikely to be a mistake in transcription. Looking at google maps there is a number 30 lower clanbrassil st now and it is attached to, and very similair in build to, no 31.
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I can't see the gaps. Are these not it?
1901
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Wood_Quay/Lr__Clanbrassil_Street__East/1347983/
1911
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Wood_Quay__part_of_/Clanbrassil_Street__Lower__East_Side/78064/
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Ah, that explains it. I had found Clannbrasil St under Merchants Quay
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Merchants_Quay/Upper_Clanbrassil_Street/
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Merchants_Quay/Lr__Clanbrassil_St___W__side_/
Obviously the street is a DED boundary.
Thanks for the help
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The problem with comparing the 1901 with 1911 census is that the numbers shown are the numbers on the Enumerator's page and nothing to do with the actual address. In 1911 you have the option to check the scanned page which gives the actual address but you can't do that in 1901. So, #30 Clanbrassil St. could appear as household number 15 in 1901 and #33 in 1911.
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William Brophy a widower age 50 a cork cutter at 84 Capel St in 1911
Described as a lodging house belonging to Anne Nolan.
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dathai
Great minds think alike, I found him this afternoon. I had missed this guy because the age is wrong, he should be 55 acording to the age given on the 1901 census. However it looks to be the same person as he is a cork cutter by profession (the 1901 has him as a cork butter which confused me for quite a while).
This brings me to a question, who fiilled out the census return. Nowadays it would be done by the head of the household but I suspect they forms may have been filled out by the enumerator. Am I correct?
You could imagine the owner of a logding house getting the age wrong of one of her lodgers (as opposed to a family member).
Which age would you be more inclined to accept?
Mike
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yes it looks like Patrick McQUAIDE the enurimater filled out the form as he witnesses the x by head of household.