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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: davidgodalming on Tuesday 13 August 13 14:35 BST (UK)
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Please excuse my ignorance but I have an entry in the 1841 census for an ancestor who thought he was born about 1786. However I cannot find any record of his baptism. Did many people simply not bother to have baptisms? That may explain why I cannot find a record. It just isn't there. Any comments gratefully received.
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They could have been non-conformist so will not be in C of E parish registers.
Stan
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Hi
Do you want to give some details so that others can have a look?
Many records have not yet been transcribed and uploaded to the internet, so it may be your ancestor's records are amongst those.
KR
Gaie
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Also remember that ages were rounded down on the 1841 census so he could have been between 55 to 59 years old.
Mo
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Thanks to you all for the rapid response. My ancestor is a Joseph Jonathan born about 1786 in the village of Llansawel in Carmarthenshire, at least that's what he reckoned in the 1841 census. The surname Jonathan whilst not common is nevertheless one which crops up a lot in south west Wales so maybe an extended family. I cannot find a record of him marrying Anne but some of their children were baptised although not all it would seem. Looking at census records there's a Timothy Jonathan in the same village born the same time so maybe twin brothers. I just don't know.
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Just remember that in the 1841 census, ages were rounded down to the nearest five years, so when looking for baptisms you need to extend your search accordingly.
Gaie
Added: many 1841 census pages do not have the ages rounded down, though ::)
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A fee was payable to the vicar so occasionally you find two or three of the children were baptised together when finances were perhaps improved or for example the father was working away and they waited until both parents could attend the christening. This could be a few years later.
There is a fairly high chance [over 50%] of being a non conformist baptism. See Genuki Wales for detail of NC records etc. http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/CMN/
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1851 he is born c 1786 Llansawel also.
EDIT JAMES's Birth Cert wil give you Annes maiden name;
James JONATHAN, Sept 1838, Llandilofawr, 26 475
Trish :)
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A fee was payable to the vicar
Not true for baptisms; there were a few naughty vicars who charged, but they were not supposed to.
KR
Gaie
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Under Ecclesiastical law no fee can be charged for the administration of Sacraments. One nineteenth century Bishop said that to charge such a fee was “downright and glaring simony.”
The Baptismal Fees Abolition Act was passed in 1872, under which no fee can be charged for baptism notwithstanding any ancient custom to the contrary. The purpose of this act was to make the law clear in respect of fees for baptisms or for registering baptisms, it appeared that fees were being charged in some parishes, and it was intended to put an end to this system.
In one case where a rector demanded a fee of two shillings for a baptism legal opinion was that;
a) No fee can be claimed for the registration of a baptism;
b) It is very doubtful whether in any case, even where there has been a custom to do so, a fee can be asked for the administration of baptism;
c) It is certain that no such fee can be recovered by law;
d) It is also certain that any clergyman refusing to baptize or to register the baptism on the ground of no fee having been paid can be proceeded against and punished under the 68th and 70th Canons of the Act of 52 George III., cap. 146.
See also http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=619264.msg4678701#msg4678701
Stan
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Thanks Trish. My great great uncle James was a very naughty boy. He got 5 years in prison for sheep stealing. I read an account of his trial at the archives in Carmarthen.
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Hello , I think James Jonathan was my great grandfather , who moved to merthyr. Do you have any details of why he stole the sheep ?
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Hi Llinos, I think "your" James Jonathan and "my" James Jonathan are one and the same person in which case we're related. I looked at the Carmarthen Journal for 28 October 1864 and the description of the trial is there in the records held by Carms. County Council. However as to why he stole the sheep other than the obvious reason of making a profit there's no explanation. He wasn't represented by a solicitor in court.
Are you on Genes Reunited?
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No I am new to this , my name prior to marriage was Jonathan , and Dad was Joseph! I took Evan Jonathan ( also grandson and 2nd cousin) to Llansawel this week ! He wants to think James was a Robin Hood character - but seems unlikely !!!! I can assure you no one further down the line has been stealing sheep recently . Should I join Genes Reunited ? Interested in anything you may have Llinos
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Llinos,
My Jonathan connection is a great grandmother born in Aberdare in 1862. Ann Jonathan. By chance I was in Llansawel on 29 June last. If you'd like to e mail me on (*) I'll tell you as much as I know.
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Thanks David , I will do that post weekend , family folklore has it that they were all very religious , almost Bible bashing ( seems strange given my gr grandfather performance ) but that could be based on is marriage . Other interesting item I would like to explore is ( again family folklore ) that they arrived in a ship at Carmarthen bay , fleeing religious persecution in Scotland ... Everyone was named after Bible . Met "village historian" at Llansawel visit , who said he could open up Methodist church records for me . My email is (*). You can google me , I have an up to date LinkedIn profile and live in London. Thanks for your prompt reply , I am really excited about thiis , husband thinks I am mad !!! Llinos
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there's a marriage in Talley for a John Jonathan of Llansawel and Anne Rees of Talley 17/2/1776 making them in the right area to be parents of your Joseph. Timothy Jonathan was enumerated as 67 in the 1851 census, so they wouldn't appear to be twins.
:-\
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Thank you Osprey very much. There seems to have been an extended Jonathan family around Llansawel and as I know from my visit to the area this June, Talley is very close to Llansawel.
May I ask exactly where did you get the info. from re the 1776 wedding?
Also can you or anyone else enlighten me as to weddings and parish records? I have received some conflicting info. and comments. Did chapel goers get married in a church as well as a chapel or was it only in a church that weddings were recognised unless people were Quakers or Jewish. As far as I know I have no Catholic ancestors but when were Catholic church weddings recognised? I find this all very confusing as so many people seem to give different comments.
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sorry, forgot to put that. The marriage is on FreeReg, the Llansawel marriages are on there, but baptisms and burials have not yet been transcribed.
http://www.freereg.org.uk/
After Hardwicke's Marriage Act until civil registration began in 1837, all marriages had to be in a parish church to be legal, the only exceptions being for Jews and Quakers. From civil registration (1/7/1837), marriages could take place in churches in other denominations as long as a registrar was present. Another act in 1898 allowed for the appointment of an authorised person to be present instead of the registrar, giving non-conformist churches including Roman Catholics the same rights as the established church, Jews and Quakers.
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/details?Uri=C13367
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have you considered that patronymics were still in use in the area at the time?
Bear with me on this one. I found a Timothy Jonathan in Llansawel in 1841, a butcher like Joseph. I checked 1851 for more accurate ages and place of birth
Hamlet y Genol, Llansawel HO107/2471 folio 15 pg 4
Timothy Jonathan head widower 33 butcher
Anne dau 8
Sarah sister 22
all born Llansawel
I'd found a baptism for Joseph & Anne's youngest son, James, but thought it odd there weren't ones for the other children. I couldn't find a baptism for Timothy Jonathan, but I did find one in 1817 for Timothy Timothy son of Joseph & Anne, so I checked for the other children and found to the same parents
Benjamin Timothy bp 8/12/1835
Joseph Timothy bp 10/4/1833
William Timothy bp 26/1/1831
Jonathan Timothy bp 7/7/1828
Sarah Timothy bp 30/4/1826
Thomas Timothy bp 2/2/1824
Mary Timothy bp 9/9/1821
Jane Timothy bp 8/8/1819
Ann Timothy bp 23/3/1815
David Timothy bp 10/11/1813
Which gets us back to the marriage of Joseph Timothy & Anne Evans in Llansawel 25/6/1813 by licence. There's the marriage of Jonathan Timothy & Anne Morgan in Llansawel 17/12/1782 as possible parents for Joseph. An Anne Jonathan, widow, aged 84 was buried 17/11/1836, abode given as Trehelig which is where Timothy Jonathan and his family were living in 1841.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/history/sites/themes/society/family_03_welshnaming.shtml
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Osprey. The second thanks from me today.