RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Seaton Smithy on Tuesday 13 August 13 13:44 BST (UK)
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OK, dipping my toe back in the water - let's see how we go with this one.
My great-grandfather was Wilfred Charles Everitt.
Wilfred was raised by his uncle Edward James Everitt and his wife Hannah Maria True, who had no children of their own but took in a number (at least 4) children of other family members.
Wilfred was the son of Edward's brother John Joseph Everitt who had died in March 1881, shortly before Wilfred's birth. There are several public trees that show Wilfred's mother was John's wife Bertha Devery. However, it is believed within our branch of the family this is not correct, and probably a reason he was raised by his uncle.
There are also several public trees that show Wilfred as the son of another brother, Thomas James Everitt. This error comes from information on Thomas' death certificate.
The family story - which comes from one of Wilfred's daughters through one of his granddaughters is that sometime after John's death a woman possibly named Adelaide or Adeline left the young Wilfred at the home of Edward and Hannah.
Wilfred's date of birth is generally given as 14 June 1881, but it is believed within the family it was actually May and the place of birth is given as Howlong.
Wilfred was known all his life as Bob which is not an obvious nickname and it is possible that as a young child he was known as Robert before being told when he was older his name was really Wilfred Charles. There is also a suggestion his birth name may have actually been Charles Wilfred.
So there a lot of maybes with this one unfortunately - born Wilfred Charles or Charles Wilfred, either 14 May or 14 June 1881 in Howlong or possibly Albury, possibly Everitt but probably his mother's unknown surname, mother's given name possibly Adelaide or Adeline, and possibly known at one time as Robert.
We have lots of information about the Everitt family here in Australia so don't really need anything there at this time.
Any possible leads on the birth of Wilfred and his mother would be greatly appreciated. I have tried the NSW BDMs, but I know there others far better than me at these searches.
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This is the closest i could find...
NSW birth
27469/1880 EVANS WILFRED CHARLES father EVAN ROBERTS mother CATHERINE
District WOLLONGONG
edited to add
Maybe not the one.
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Maybe it could be worth checking births in VIC.
Howlong is a town 28 kilometres west of Albury, and is situated on the Murray River which separates the Australian states of New South Wales and Victoria.
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There are no children of Everitt unaccounted for, even the unnamed one to Thomas is recorded dying same year 1880. Have searched exhaustively for mother Adelaide/Adeline and sons Wilfred/Charles/Robert and again none.
There are as JM would explain many instances of Birth returns which have not been indexed. So it is just possible that he was born to one of the other Everitt's at Howlong and not registered.
I don't hold much store in handed down family stories as these can be imaginatively enlivened over the years and much romance attached.
Neil ???
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Maybe it could be worth checking births in VIC.
Absolutely - later Everitts and other branches of the family from that region regularly crossed back and forth across the border, almost like it was some sort of articificial construct.
I don't have access to the Vic indexes at the moment, hope to have that access sometime soon.
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I don't hold much store in handed down family stories as these can be imaginatively enlivened over the years and much romance attached.
Thanks, Neil. It's good to have a double-check. And I agree, this particular birth may not have been indexed or recorded correctly.
And I agree about the family stories, although sometimes they are your only starting point. Always just as happy to disprove them as I am to prove them.
Just to add some "romance" to this one, Wifred's father John died young from a head injury, official reason at inquest being a fall from a horse. Family legend version is he was beaten up in a pub, possibly by the mother's brothers.
While it's possibly just a story, it's interesting that during his illness after whatever incident caused the injury, he apparently went to his mother's home rather than stay with his wife.
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After this birth there is only one male EVERITT birth registered in Victoria between 1876 and 1884
It is at Casterton to parents of incorrect names.
EVERITT Bertha Mary Catharine
Father John Joseph
Mother Bertha Bridget Connor DEVERY
Birth Place TARR
Year 1876
Reg 5765
Sue
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Just a quick note to the person who sent me 2 PMs with births of children of Thomas and his wife Harriet - thank you for your suggestions but these are known births for Thomas and are known not to be Wilfred.
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There is certainly a marriage listed for a John Joseph EVERITT
Victoria, 1872, #4197
John Joseph EVERITT m Bridget Bertha C DEVERY
The birth found by Sue is obviously for this couple but whether it's your family.......... ???
Sue, I think TARR might be an abbreviation for Tarrawingee in north-east Victoria?
I wonder if it would be worth getting the death certificate for Bertha, although I would think it's unlikely that Wilfred Charles would be mentioned as one of her children given the circumstances.
Victoria, 1934, #13907
Bertha Bridget Connors FINN, 80
Death Place: Beechworth, Victoria
Father's Name: Bernard Devery
Mother's Name: Mary Connors
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1854
It's also very possible, in my opinion, that Wilfred's birth was never registered at all.
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There is certainly a marriage listed for a John Joseph EVERITT
Victoria, 1872, #4197
John Joseph EVERITT m Bridget Bertha C DEVERY
The birth found by Sue is obviously for this couple but whether it's your family.......... ???
Sue, I think TARR might be an abbreviation for Tarrawingee in north-east Victoria?
I wonder if it would be worth getting the death certificate for Bertha, although I would think it's unlikely that Wilfred Charles would be mentioned as one of her children given the circumstances.
Victoria, 1934, #13907
Bertha Bridget Connors FINN, 80
Death Place: Beechworth, Victoria
Father's Name: Bernard Devery
Mother's Name: Mary Connors
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1854
Thanks, judb, this is the right family and all these things are already known.
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Hi
You may already know this, there is a John James Everitt born 1880 reg Sydney mother Mary Ann father not listed
Muss
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Besides Bertha are there any other children to John Joseph and Bertha either in Victoria or NSW?
Also do you know what areas other branches of the family lived?
Neil
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NSW 1878 Electoral Roll THE HUME
Note the surname spelling ???
EVERETT
John Joseph
(residence) Moorwartha
(qualification) freehold
(situate) Moorwartha
Luke, Senior,
(residence) Bungowannah,
(qualification) freehold
(situate) Howlong
Thomas,
Guinea St,
residence
Albury
Luke
Moorwartha
residence
Moorwartha
William
Howlong
residence
Howlong
Back to NSW ER 1870 THE HUME
EVERETT, Luke,
Bungowannah
freehold
Sargeant's Flat
NONE with surname EVERITT listed on either 1870 or 1878 ER for THE HUME.
Re NSW BDM issues.... in 1880s the main effort in the Sydney Office (HQ) for NSW BDM was handling the incoming paperwork for the MARRIAGES 1856-1879 that had not yet been registered.
Also, in the 1880s BIRTHS were registered by one or the other parent attending the local court house. Then once a quarter a summary was to be forwarded by ordinary mail to the Reg-Gen in Sydney (at the Lands Office). If a summary was NOT forwarded, then the clerks assumed there were NO births for that district. Around 100 years later, when NSW BDM was being computerised, they recalled ALL court house registers to HQ. Up until the 1980s, if you wanted your birth cert for "proof" of ID, you would usually just go along to the local court house and the clerk would look up the info in their local ledgers and (on payment of the appropriate fee) issue you an extract. There was NO cross checking that the Sydney HQ actually held a copy of the original entry in the court house ledger.
It is more than likely that there has not been sufficient funding dedicated to providing a full reconciliation between the court house registers and the summary registers prepared in the 1880s at the NSW BDM HQ. I note that in interim 100 years throughout NSW there have been a number of floods, fires, and other adverse conditions affecting the storage of the court house registers, and sadly quite a number have been lost, if memory serves me rightly, quite a number in the 1930s were lost in and around Wagga, and Albury.
Cheers, JM
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Grevilles 1875 PO Directory BUNGOWANNA
EVERED Luke, Farmer (JM notes, surname ending with 'D' ::) )
Cheers, JM
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You may already know this, there is a John James Everitt born 1880 reg Sydney mother Mary Ann father not listed
Thanks - I don't believe this is one of ours.
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You may already know this, there is a John James Everitt born 1880 reg Sydney mother Mary Ann father not listed
Thanks - I don't believe this is one of ours.
:) May I ask how you have eliminated that sighting please.
Cheers, JM
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Grevilles 1875 PO Directory BUNGOWANNA
EVERED Luke, Farmer (JM notes, surname ending with 'D' ::) )
Yep, Everett, Everit and Evritt are other recorded spellings for the first generation of births in Aus with Everitt becoming the consistent version in later generations.
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May I ask how you have eliminated that sighting please.
Sure - I have only one Mary Ann who was the older sister of Thomas, John and Edward, spelling of birth name recorded both as Everett and Everit. She married George Darby and they had 10 children between 1860 and 1880 (last birth a daughter). George died in Corowa in 1885, and Mary Ann died in St Kilda in 1926. I don't believe she would of had a male child with the surname Everitt in Sydney in 1880.
John was the second born of the siblings and was born in Goulburn, so the family had left Sydney by then and continued south to the Albury/Corowa region after that. I don't have record of any of the 10 siblings marrying or having a daughter called Mary Ann, so I don't believe the Mary Ann Everitt in that post is one of ours.
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Could you help me some explanation of why you believe all this to be true.
Quote
"Wilfred was the son of Edward's brother John Joseph Everitt who had died in March 1881, shortly before Wilfred's birth. There are several public trees that show Wilfred's mother was John's wife Bertha Devery. However, it is believed within our branch of the family this is not correct, and probably a reason he was raised by his uncle.
There are also several public trees that show Wilfred as the son of another brother, Thomas James Everitt. This error comes from information on Thomas' death certificate."
Also when possible could you have a play with your surname interests and places and maybe put them across the lines without double spaces. The post get very tiresome t scroll through. ::)
Neil
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Besides Bertha are there any other children to John Joseph and Bertha either in Victoria or NSW?
Also do you know what areas other branches of the family lived?
Bertha Everitt is the only known child of John Everitt and Bertha Devery.
Most of the family seem to have settled around Corowa, Albury and Howlong. The push into Victoria came with the next generation, but even then it was still initially around the Rutherglen, Peechelba, Wangaratta region.
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I think you should obtain an official transcription of the following 1880 birth registration
UNNAMED EVERITT,
Parents : Thomas and Harriett
Registered at : ALBURY
#8444
adding, as it is a NSW BDM, birth rego it should give info about any OLDER siblings. :) and info about the parents (marriage/their ages/his occupation/where born/ etc)
There are no children of Everitt unaccounted for, even the unnamed one to Thomas is recorded dying same year 1880. Have searched exhaustively for mother Adelaide/Adeline and sons Wilfred/Charles/Robert and again none.
There are as JM would explain many instances of Birth returns which have not been indexed. So it is just possible that he was born to one of the other Everitt's at Howlong and not registered.
I don't hold much store in handed down family stories as these can be imaginatively enlivened over the years and much romance attached.
Neil ???
And, yes, It is likely to be associated with the 1880 dc for an unnamed female #4955 (where buried, for possible headstone searching :) )
Sometimes it is important to actually get the document rather than rely on index entries :)
Cheers, JM
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Wilfred Charles EVERITT’s death at age 88, has his parents as Thomas and Annie. (Annie and Harriett can often be the same person)
Do you have the 1905 marriage cert for Wilfred Chas EVERITT and Jane Sarah DENSLEY? (Vic, #1644). If so, would you please type up the info as it seems to me that quite often the smallest details can lead to the key to finding the clue to unlocking the mystery.
So, the usual questions are (only from the marriage cert, NOT from any other source)
:) :) :) Date and place for the marriage, and denomination (which set of rites)
:) :) Bride’s and Groom’s names,
:) :) Their respective status (bachelor/spinster, Widow/er/Divorcee etc
:) If either were previously married, when did the previous spouse die,
:) And the details of the children by any former marriage
:) :) Where were the bride and the groom born
:) :) What were their occupations
:) :) How old were they
:) :) :) :) Where were they usually living, and where were they living when marrying each other
:) :) :) :) What were their parents names (including their respective mum’s maiden names)
:) :) What were the occupations of their Dads
:) Does the document note any parent as deceased, if so, who
:) Did they all sign or did any make their mark and if so, who made their mark
:) Who were their witnesses?
:) If Jane was not yet 21, who gave consent for her marriage to Wilfred
Cheers, JM
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I think you should obtain an official transcription of the following 1880 birth registration
UNNAMED EVERITT,
Parents : Thomas and Harriett
Registered at : ALBURY
#8444
Cheers, JM
Just expanding on this thought.
The birth was in 18830 EDIT
This death in Albury seems to be to the same couple
REG4955/1880 EVERITT Unnamed Female Father THOMAS Mother HARRIETT at ALBURY .
Sue
ADDING
I see JM you have already made mention of this death. ;)
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Well, you see, using my own family .... I have generations of my lot listed in NSW BDM indexes. In one particular case one couple had a child early in the year 1879 and another very late that same year. I knew that the second baby did not survive, because the baby's MUM told me so, decades ago.... and so there's a death registered for that wee babe. (Died at age 15 hours as per dc).
Now, in fact that infant death does NOT have a corresponding birth registered. So, among some of the less experienced FH buffs in my family I have family members who have initially presumed there was only the one baby born in 1879 and that THAT wee babe did NOT survive. Well, errr I have gently explained (when the opportunity arose, and not ever in a bossy way) ..... that the first one DID survive, and I had been told this by the babe's mum (their Gran/Great Aunt/Great Gran etc, depending on their own relationship to me) and that the baby had thrived and went on to marry and to have 17 children (all born in the Western Div of NSW of course ;D ) and then I hand around the photos (and bore the living rellies to 'tears') ......
It can be important to "get the birth cert" .... and better still, when it is in NSW then to get the alternative .... "get the Official transcription".... There's births to Thomas and Harriett EVERITT in 1880 and in 1883, registered Albury :)
Cheers, JM
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http://www.rootschat.com/links/0vpr/
Thursday 15 April 1886
A death notice which is interestingly worded as it makes no mention of the father of this child.
EVANS was the maiden name of HARRIETT EVERITT
EVERITT Thomas
To EVANS Harriet
Year 1876
Reg 7648X1906
There are news item which mention a THOMAS EVERITT and they are generally concerned with horse stealing in the Howlong area.
One item mentions his "brother LUKE"
Sue
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Don't really know if this is on the track or not ::)
But as a matter of leaving no stone unturned, here is further on Harriet EVERITT (nee Evans)
Obituary
The few old friends left will regret to hear of the death of Mrs Harriet Everitt, which occurred on 18th instant at Toora. Deceased lady was a native of Kilmore ,and daughter of an old business man, Mr Samuel Evans,. who was amongst the earliest townsmen here.
Thursday 30 May 1929
Sue
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http://www.rootschat.com/links/0vpr/
Thursday 15 April 1886
A death notice which is interestingly worded as it makes no mention of the father of this child.
It is interesting, but it was in the Kilmore paper, so may have been placed by Harriet's family and intended for people who ddin't know Thomas. Also mentions Harriet's father as the "late grandfather" but makes no mention of her mother
There are news item which mention a THOMAS EVERITT and they are generally concerned with horse stealing in the Howlong area. One item mentions his "brother LUKE"
This is Thomas senior. Luke is a brother of Thomas, John and Edward. One of the articles made me smile - published in 1885 it reports Thomas' confession to horse stealing in 1868, and is headlined "Horse Stealing In The Old Days". Funny to think that in 1885 they already thought of 1868 as the "old days".
The impression I get is that the first generation of Everitt sons were typical "wild colonial boys". Google the 100 mile horse race at Howlong for more adventures of Tom (Thomas) and Jack (John Joseph). That one even made international news - well, it was reprinted in a New Zealand paper, anyway.
Obituary
The few old friends left will regret to hear of the death of Mrs Harriet Everitt, which occurred on 18th instant at Toora. Deceased lady was a native of Kilmore ,and daughter of an old business man, Mr Samuel Evans,. who was amongst the earliest townsmen here.
Thursday 30 May 1929
Again, oddly no mention of Mrs Evans.
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Wilfred Charles EVERITT’s death at age 88, has his parents as Thomas and Annie.
And as you well know, JM, you can't always rely on what is reported on death records.
(Annie and Harriett can often be the same person)
I did not know that, but I will take your word for it. I know from my Scottish side Elizabeth and Isabel are interchangeable, and people christened Jane are often known as Jean their entire life.
What I can say is that Annie appears to have been a nickname for Edward's wife Hannah.
On the record of his marriage to Sarah Jane Densley (must have been an indexing error there), Wilfred gives his parents as Edward Jas Everitt and Annie M True, as this is what he would have believed at the time. It was not until he was much, much older that he was told Edward and Hannah were not his real parents.
It is believed that Hannah is the Annie referred to on the death record, and the reference is to Thomas was an error. The informant was one of Wilfred's daughters.
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(Annie and Harriett can often be the same person)
Well, I have lots of NSW examples .... here's two.
:) My "Annie" was "Annie" when SHE registered the births of her children BUT when her husband registered the births of the children she was "Harriett". This is 1870s to 1890s, rural NSW
:) My Harriet was "Harriett" or "Harriet" or "Harriott" when she was registering births and yet when her husband was registering births she was "Ann" or "Anne" or "Nancy" or "Annie".... this was The Rocks, as in Sydney and was 1865-1880.
What I can say is that Annie appears to have been a nickname for Edward's wife Hannah.
I can definitely support that suggestion (Annie aka Hannah) too ! :)
On the record of his marriage to Sarah Jane Densley (must have been an indexing error there), Wilfred gives his parents as Edward Jas Everitt and Annie M True, as this is what he would have believed at the time. It was not until he was much, much older that he was told Edward and Hannah were not his real parents.
From that mc
Where does Wilfred state that he was born?
And does the mc note if either parent was deceased?
And another question or two if I may ..... WHO told Wilfred that Edward and Hannah were not his real parents .... what was that person's relationship to Edward and to Hannah .... How reliable would that person's knowledge have been ....
Cheers, JM
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Could you help me some explanation of why you believe all this to be true.
Quote
"Wilfred was the son of Edward's brother John Joseph Everitt
Wilfred was told this by a family member.
John Joseph Everitt who had died in March 1881
That's a matter of record.
There are several public trees that show Wilfred's mother was John's wife Bertha Devery. However, it is believed within our branch of the family this is not correct.
This bit is family history. With no record of the birth, it's hard to prove or deny. And in theory Bertha could have given him up because her husband had died. Bertha's death record as Bertha Finn would be one option. But there appears to be no actual suggestion in the family she was Wilfred's mother or that she had anything to do with him and the attachment of her as his mother on family trees is probably just an assumption.
There are also several public trees that show Wilfred as the son of another brother, Thomas James Everitt. This error comes from information on Thomas' Wilfred's death certificate.
Sorry, my error there. That should have read Wilfred's death certificate, obviously. This information contradicts what Wilfred was told and to be an error made by the informant at the time. Again, it appears that people without that family knowledge of what Wilfred was told have simply taken the death record as correct - and as you know, death records can not always be relied on.
Now, you'll be wondering how we know what Wilfred was told. His daughters were interviewed by a granddaughter in the 80s. That person has also obtained copies of official records from the registry offices, visited local churches, court houses and cemeteries for more records and been tracing the Everitt family history for around 25 years. Now, I accept you can't always rely on people's memories, but Wilfred being told his real father was John was something that was very clearly recalled at the time.
The actual record of Wilfred's birth is one of the three remaining unsolved family mysteries.
Also when possible could you have a play with your surname interests and places and maybe put them across the lines without double spaces. The post get very tiresome t scroll through.
Done - I should have sorted that ages ago.
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May I wander off on a possible side-track please :)
To the TRUE family (Annie's nee name) and to Wilfred's nick name of BOB ..... Bob as in Robert .... Robert as in one of the brothers for Annie TRUE was Robert ....
Robert P TRUE's birth was registered in the NSW BDM district of Gundagai in 1863, (#8270) a son of Samuel P and Mary A TRUE. I will hazard a guess and say the "P" is for Pickering for both Robert and for Samuel (that's my own speculation based on snooping a submitted tree at Ancestry :-X )
Cheers, JM :) Off now to ponder on some more 'in depth' questions to pose ... ;)
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From that mc
Where does Wilfred state that he was born?
And does the mc note if either parent was deceased?
Howlong, and no.
WHO told Wilfred that Edward and Hannah were not his real parents
Well, here is the kicker, and much may be made of this but ... that person was Thomas. It was done in Hannah's presence.
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Is this John one of your Everitts? ( http://www.rootschat.com/links/0vpx/ ) :o
I don't think you can be sure Wilfred was born in the Howlong area - if the family knew the woman they might have known she was from around the area, but her family might have sent her off somewhere while she was pregnant (the old "staying with my aunt for seven months or so" trick).
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I deleted what i posted ::)
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May I wander off on a possible side-track please :)
You may, but I would ask everyone at this point that there be no further references in relation to the extended True family beyond Hannah or something really very specific to Wilfred on this thread. There's a particular event that still causes controversy today and I understand reference to it can get quite nasty.
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WHO told Wilfred that Edward and Hannah were not his real parents
Well, here is the kicker, and much may be made of this but ... that person was Thomas. It was done in Hannah's presence.
Do you mean THOMAS, the husband of HARRIET?
Have I got the right death?
EVERITT Thos Jas
Father Everitt Edwd
Mother Unknown UNKNOWN
Death Place WATTA
Age 85
Year 1933
Reg 16994
If this is correct and Thomas had not died earlier, it is clear Thomas and HARRIET were estranged which was my point in commenting previously about the absence of his name in newspaper notices related to herself and family. (Replies #24 and #25)
Details are readily available, but she is living independently on the E Roll by 1903
Sue
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Is this John one of your Everitts? ( http://www.rootschat.com/links/0vpx/ )
There is only the one.
Thanks for this. I think my cousin may have mentioned this briefly during our last conversation (which was more focussed on issues in the present).
Certainly indicates a pattern of behaviour if nothing else.
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May have nothing to do with anything, BUT! there is a Wilfred having a son (Wilfred) by his wife Adeline in NSW in mid 1880's ::) THEY married in 1881. ::)
Neil
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If this is correct and Thomas had not died earlier, it is clear Thomas and HARRIET were estranged which was my point in commenting previously about the absence of his name in newspaper notices related to herself and family. (Replies #24 and #25)
And your point was understood.
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May have nothing to do with anything, BUT! there is a Wilfred having a son (Wilfred) by his wife Adeline in NSW in mid 1880's ::) THEY married in 1881. ::)
Coonamble is a bit of a long haul, but it is about the closest hit as far as names go.
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If the husband was a shearer for instance they could be anywhere, as it is, they were in Cooma in 1897.
But I cannot find a connection between the names of Everitt/Willmott/Rees :-\
Neil
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Hi
If I may disagree ... Coonamble was on TSR and so too was Howlong... My Western Div families from 1880s were drovers .... sometimes way into QLD other times in Adelaide SA but the children were raised Far West NSW....
Cheers JM
May have nothing to do with anything, BUT! there is a Wilfred having a son (Wilfred) by his wife Adeline in NSW in mid 1880's ::) THEY married in 1881. ::)
Coonamble is a bit of a long haul, but it is about the closest hit as far as names go.
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Does anyone think it is just possible that Wilfred/Charles (Whatever) was just informally adopted by the EVERITT family. As there were no formal adoptions until mid 1920's in NSW. There seem to be many instances of what could have been Stockmans/Drovers/Shearers families that struck hard times and just handed over the Kid's to be raised in a less informal manner than on the track. ???
I don't know if this family WILLMOTT had this happening to them but the timing and naming seems a bit too close for just coincidence. ::)
The actual Wilfred born 1886 dies same year, but could there have been another unaccounted for?
More questions.....no real answers :-\
Neil
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Just to throw another loopy in.
Wilfreds brother Arthur dies 1969 in Inverell where both his parents died but his family gives his mother not as ADELINE but ADELAIDE. Gee another coincidence ::)
Neil
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A moment of non-factual pondering now….. ::)
I find it difficult to accept that John EVERITT was the father of a child to a woman unknown to the family. These were tough days and in most cases a woman who found herself pregnant was not assisted by the father’s family, but by her own –if at all!
If he is the father then he has given his name to the child and then she is never heard of again!
You have stated the couple, Edward and Hannah, raised children of family and it seems unlikely they would reach out to a girl in trouble not related to them .
John appears to have shown poor character in sited instances and it seems illogical he would ask his brother to raise a child from a liason while the mother moved on.
Did Adeline, then, go to the door and say this child belongs to your JOHN, then leave town?
Sue
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Do you have a copy of the NSW BDM marriage cert for Hannah and Edward? Registered Gundagai, 1877 (NSW BDM #3053). If so, what denomination please, and who were the witnesses, and what information is on that summary record as to the parentage for both the bride and the groom.
Cheers, JM
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it seems unlikely they would reach out to a girl in trouble not related to them.
It is believed that Hannah was reluctant, even resistant.
John ... would ask his brother to raise a child from a liason while the mother moved on.
If the birth date is reasonably correct, John had died before Wilfred was born.
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Do you have a copy of the NSW BDM marriage cert for Hannah and Edward?
I don't.
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If the birth date is reasonably correct, John had died before Wilfred was born.
Almost exactly 3 months between the burial of JOHN JOSEPH at Howlong (11/3/1881) and the suggested birth of WILFRED (14/6/1881)
Sue
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:) Well spotted Sue :)
Some JM thoughts:
Fostering/Adopting
Yes, unless the child had been admitted to an institution (Benelovent Society or the like) the fostering was likely to be very INFORMAL, and within the extended family, OR within a Lodge Order etc. So, yes, the arrangements for raising children, not of a marriage, were NOT well documented.
In some rural districts, the family denomination helps, as it can lead to Parish registers and thus to Baptisms in that era in that parish …. You can then go through the register around that year, looking for babies being baptised, with Mum being mentioned, and without mentioning of Dad.
Again from my own tree, and again NSW …..
Baby born 1875, Baby’s birth registered within four weeks of birth, Dad dies 1878, Mum re-marries, Child comes to the new marriage. Child finishes school, wants to start apprenticeship. AT THAT TIME (1890), Step Dad goes along to Court House, and fills out fresh registration, putting HIS OWN surname for that child. Court House provides Extract of that NEW registration. JM comes along decades later and wants CERTIFICATE …. JM orders two certs (official transcriptions)….Ordering two different rego nos. JM gets TWO documents …. And proudly confirms that the step dad is noted as “foster father”. I also agree with Neil and note that it was NOT until 1920s that Adoptions were formalised in NSW. I also note that NSW BDM regulations prior to WWI were NOT clear, were open to wide interpretations and were not kept consistent even within the same district. I also carefully note that several of my SYDNEY SLICKER families from that era were errr….. clerks and senior officers with Reg-Gen’s dept.
Another line of thinking:
Have you checked the following FILES held at the NSW SRO?
There can be witness statements, BDM documents, Tree Charts, Newspaper cuttings, and answers to questions (including those not yet asked) within those files, particularly in the Deceased Estates files there should also be a Will naming beneficiaries, ….
http://srwww.records.nsw.gov.au/indexsearch/keyname.aspx
Deceased Estates for example
Annie Marie EVERITT, Mulwala, DD 20 May 1933, (a widow), (NSW BDM # 9776)
Edward James EVERITT, near Corowa, dd 13 June 1933 (farmer) (NSW BDM #8572)
Elizabeth EVERITT, Marago, DD 19 July 1903 (NSW BDM #9811)
Isaac EVERITT, Morago, DD 30 June 1893 (NSW BDM # 5387)
Susan S EVERITT, Deniliquin DD 22 June 1912, and Duty Paid around TEN years later in May 1922 (NSW BDM #10401)
Mary Jane EVERITT, Binya, DD 20 April 1921 (married woman) (NSW BDM #7387)
R EVERITT, Barham DD 4 May 1899 (probably Rudolphus, registered at Moulamein NSW BDM #6390)
Deposition Registers
John EVERITT, Larceny, Trial at Albury, 7 April 1868
John EVERITT, Escape, Trial at Albury, 12 August, 1869
Thomas EVERITT, Horse, Trial at Albury, 16 June 1885
Insolvency Index
Thomas EVERITT, Daysdale, 2 March 1883 (labourer)
Have you established WHO was Catherine EVERITT …. NSW BDM have her father as JOHN, and the death registered at Albury in 1900 and NO name for her mum on the online index.
Cheers, JM
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Do you have a copy of the NSW BDM marriage cert for Hannah and Edward?
I don't.
So, may I please ask HOW you can positively confirm who were their parents?
May I suggest you have a read of the following thread I prepared
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,546609.0.html
Cheers, JM
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Almost exactly 3 months between the burial of JOHN JOSEPH at Howlong (11/3/1881) and the suggested birth of WILFRED (14/6/1881)
Sue
:) Well spotted Sue :)
Actually, I stated this in my first post.
The point here was Sue had suggested John had asked Edward and Hannah to take on Wilfred, and I was highlighting he hwas already dead so unlikely to have done.
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https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.2.1/MZ3S-9NC
The above link is for a SUBMITTED tree, which at present has Hannah (nee EVANS) as born 1876, and also as the Mum of an Unnamed EVERITT born 1880 ::) Obviously a very creative mind submitted that info, and I haven't bothered to check TROVE to see if there was any mention of a FOUR year old lass giving birth .... :-X
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.2.1/MZ3S-M48 This is another link to a submitted tree, same submitter .... and I note that the submitter has Luke EVERITT's wife DD as 14 JUNE (1900) so perhaps that is where that conflicting dates for Wilfred's birth comes from.
Cheers, JM
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Actually, I stated this in my first post.
The point here was Sue had suggested John had asked Edward and Hannah to take on Wilfred, and I was highlighting he hwas already dead so unlikely to have done.
So you have ruled out any consideration that if Wilfred was John's son, and if John was aware that Wilfred's mum was expecting, that perhaps John had asked Edward and Hannah to take on that lass' baby during the lass' second trimester?
Cheers, JM
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Also, may I ask for likely year that Thomas told Wilfred :) it needs to be prior to Annie's death in May 1933, but would it be AFTER anyone else's death perhaps ....
Cheers, JM
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Have you established WHO was Catherine EVERITT …. NSW BDM have her father as JOHN, and the death registered at Albury in 1900 and NO name for her mum on the online index.
Yes this is the mother of the previously mentioned Mary Ann, Thomas, John, Edward and Luke as well as 5 more Everitt siblings. Everitt is her married name. The John mentioned is not John Everitt.
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Have you established WHO was Catherine EVERITT …. NSW BDM have her father as JOHN, and the death registered at Albury in 1900 and NO name for her mum on the online index.
Yes this is the mother of the previously mentioned Mary Ann, Thomas, John, Edward and Luke as well as 5 more Everitt siblings. Everitt is her married name. The John mentioned is not John Everitt.
Do you have that NSW BDM dc?
Cheers, JM
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So, may I please ask HOW you can positively confirm who were their parents?
As previously stated there has been 25 years research into the Everitt family. Not by me personally, by a first cousin once removed.
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So you have ruled out any consideration that if Wilfred was John's son, and if John was aware that Wilfred's mum was expecting, that perhaps John had asked Edward and Hannah to take on that lass' baby during the lass' second trimester?
No, I haven't, it's as possible as anything else. Just unlikely in my opinion.
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Also, may I ask for likely year that Thomas told Wilfred :) it needs to be prior to Annie's death in May 1933,
I understand it was very close to that event.
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Although there may be no way to prove this, unsavoury things did happen in those days. One of which was actually purchasing boys for work, thereby relieving the parents of their obligation and providing a ready cheap workforce for the purchaser. Of course this was illegal even then, but it did happen and lots of records could be very easily altered. One did not have to provide proof of identity when notifying a birth or death, just rock up say who you wanted to be and get the record done. This occurred with Births and deaths, only thing was the dad could not be named at a birth if he wasn't at the record office.
The family doesn't seem to be at the very top of the law abiding citizens group and may have been a little loose with the truth and a little to easily swayed to the wrong side of the tracks when it came to upholding the law. :o
Not passing judgement just being the devils advocate. :-X
Neil ;)
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The family doesn't seem to be at the very top of the law abiding citizens group and may have been a little loose with the truth and a little to easily swayed to the wrong side of the tracks when it came to upholding the law. :o
Not passing judgement just being the devils advocate.
And no offence taken on that point.
You are absolutely correct, particularly in reference to Thomas John and Luke junior. Here's Luke branching out without Thomas this time: http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1302&dat=18810604&id=n7hPAAAAIBAJ&sjid=RpMDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6137,4837330
I'm not aware of any reference to Edward in a criminal context, maybe he just didn't get caught.
Maybe we (descendants of Wilfred) are not really Everitts at all. But truly Everitt or not, there is evidence that Wilfred himself had a crack at the family business:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/88038277?searchTerm=everitt killawarra horse&searchLimits=
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Have you established WHO was Catherine EVERITT …. NSW BDM have her father as JOHN, and the death registered at Albury in 1900 and NO name for her mum on the online index.
Yes this is the mother of the previously mentioned Mary Ann, Thomas, John, Edward and Luke as well as 5 more Everitt siblings. Everitt is her married name. The John mentioned is not John Everitt.
Couldn't access it earlier, but I have just checked the record of her arrival and her father is listed there as Michael.
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https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.2.1/MZ3S-9NC
The above link is for a SUBMITTED tree, which at present has Hannah (nee EVANS) as born 1876, and also as the Mum of an Unnamed EVERITT born 1880 ::) Obviously a very creative mind submitted that info, and I haven't bothered to check TROVE to see if there was any mention of a FOUR year old lass giving birth .... :-X
Not Hannah, but Harriet, and of course Harriet did have an unnamed birth (and death) in 1880. What they appear to have done here is attribute the wrong husband to Harriet (Edward instead of Thomas).
I agree, the dates are somewhat amiss, but then I could show you several trees that have one of my g-g-grandfathers born 4 years before his own father!
I know this person, I'll let them know.
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May I please ask if you have accessed the deceased estate files at NSW State Records..... If so, for which family members .....
Cheers, JM
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From NZW Police Gazette, 21 April 1880
May I ask “who was Julia CASEY”
John EVERETT, charged with Indecent assault on Julia Casey Albury Circuit Court 10 April 1880 …. He was remanded at that time to the next circuit court.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/108733839 Evening News 12 April 1880 (others with surname CASEY mentioned in that cutting)
Cheers, JM
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Some further info re Julia Casey .... an "old woman", John Everett found not guilty in October 1880
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/70948688 Australian Town and Country Journal 16 Oct 1880
Now, may I ask (rhetorically) Did Julia Casey have any daughters ?
ADDING, and remembering he was apparently on remand from April to Oct 1880 :) and Wilfred born May or June 1881 :)
FURTHER ADDING Agh .... found where Bail was allowed ;D phew ...
NSW Police Gazette 21 April 1880
Howlong, John Joseph EVERETT, summoned for indecently assaulting Julia Casey has been committed for trial at Albury C.C. Bail allowed. :)
Cheers, JM
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The same case mentioned earlier in this thread.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0vpx/
The reference you found to her being an old woman may be a corruption from this article where it is reported the court considered her mature age precluded her from taking action on the basis that consent was obtained by fraud.
Old enough to know better, perhaps?
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Yes, but .... did she have any daughters .... perhaps candidates for Wilfred's Mum ;D
NSW ER 1878, THE HUME
Michael CASEY
Freeholder at Howlong
(John Casey was resident at Bowna, James Casey freeholder at Morven)
NSW SRO Deceased Estates files
J CASEY OF Howlong, DD 21 June 1899
Cheers, JM
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Have been following this thread with interest as I too have Everitt ancestors - however the Christian names are different so it's possible that that they are no relation.
I'm not sure how to copy and post quotes from earlier in the thread so I will just comment.
1. I would get a transcript of the birth of Wilfred, to Wilfred and Adeline as there is a lot of coincidence. Even it it just serves to eliminate this one.
2. Even though back then the father's family usually wouldn't take in an unwanted child - they may have been pressured by the mother to do so as no-one else was available. Some people do love children enough that they won't turn away a baby or cute young child.
3. Back to one of the earlier posts on this thread - perhaps John was beaten up by the family (husband) of Julia Casey - after all he was acquitted of raping her.
Regards
Jennaya
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perhaps candidates for Wilfred's Mum ;D
NSW SRO Deceased Estates files
J CASEY OF Howlong, DD 21 June 1899
Certainly an interesting lead worth pursuing - I can't seem to find that record in a search on the SRA site for some reason.
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3. Back to one of the earlier posts on this thread - perhaps John was beaten up by the family (husband) of Julia Casey - after all he was acquitted of raping her.
I'm inclined to think this is more likely than the other theory.
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perhaps candidates for Wilfred's Mum ;D
NSW SRO Deceased Estates files
J CASEY OF Howlong, DD 21 June 1899
Certainly an interesting lead worth pursuing - I can't seem to find that record in a search on the SRA site for some reason.
From the NSW Registers of Coroners’ Inquests there was an Inquest on 14 March 1881, at Albury. The deceased was John Joseph EVERETT, aged 37, and the Coroner found he had died of Inflamation of the membranes of the brain. .The NSW BDM has a death registration indexed as John J EVERITT, with parents as Luke and Catherine, registered at Albury in 1881. (#4406).
May I ask if you have a copy of that death cert, and if so, who was the informant and what was their stated relationship to the deceased?
http://srwww.records.nsw.gov.au/indexes/searchform.aspx?id=15 This is the link for the NSW State Records Office Index for Deceased Estates. If you use the search engine and enter the Surname as Casey and the locality as Howlong, then your puter should display the info I posted previously. You could of course just enter Howlong in the locality, three pages of results are ready for display.
May I again please ask for you to let us know which BDM certs you are currently holding in respect of this family.
ADDING,
Please remember that the Deceased Estates link is to the online INDEX and is NOT actually the RECORD, as the Record is the File that is held at Kingswood. The Deceased Estate Files are usually full of absolutely fantastic family history information.
Cheers, JM
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http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/107209242 Evening News 16 March 1881 .... interesting use of the word "old" to describe Mr John Everett.
May I ask please about Thomas .... when did his own marriage seemingly fail .... what year please .... You see, something is simply not making good sense to me ....
:) earlier in the thread if I recall correctly there was mention of a possible separation for Thomas.
:) And then via more recent posts we learn that Thomas was with Hannah when Thomas told Wilfred that John was Wilfred's father....
:) And from the OP we know that Wilfred was usually known as Bob,
:) and from various indexes we know that Wilfred married as Wilfred and not as Bob,
:) so when did Wilfred aka Bob actually first learn that his name was not Bob (Robert etc) and was in fact Wilfred Charles?
:) And why would that be at a different time from when Wilfred learnt from Thomas that John Joseph Everett/Everitt was his birth Dad....
:) And of course, why did Thomas chose NOT to give up the name of the birth Mum .... :) ... That is the strangest bit .... To me, it is far more likely that people know the name of the birth Mum, (either through watching her body develop during her pregnancy, or being aware of her absence for around 5 months or more).
:) So basically I am saying ..... has anyone in the family over the past 25 years actually searched through various family papers specifically looking at any clues as to if he spent any time at all anywhere outside the HOWLONG district in the twelve months except when in the Albury lockup on remand awaiting to be bailed ....
Simply put:
WHERE was John Joseph EVERETT/ITT from when he indecently assaulted Julia CASEY until his death at age 37 ...
Cheers, JM
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http://srwww.records.nsw.gov.au/indexes/searchform.aspx?id=15
Thanks, I think I was searching in the probate index in error.
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Wilfred was told about his name when he was younger, and his parentage when he was older. Two separate events.
I do have to get a handle on exactly what family material my cousin has. That may not be in the immediate future for a long variety of reasons.
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:) And of course, why did Thomas chose NOT to give up the name of the birth Mum .... :) ... That is the strangest bit .... To me, it is far more likely that people know the name of the birth Mum, (either through watching her body develop during her pregnancy, or being aware of her absence for around 5 months or more). JM
I agree. She was 6 months advanced at John's death.
A choice was made at a certain point -that is to say, the point of beginning a revelation of truth to Wilfred. There had been plenty of time to think about what to reveal.... many years.
I remain convinced the mother was related to the family.
Wilfred was told about his name when he was younger, and his parentage when he was older. Two separate events.
I do have to get a handle on exactly what family material my cousin has. That may not be in the immediate future for a long variety of reasons.
I would think that the revelation to him in the first event would lead to him asking immediate questions regarding his actual parentage. The "holding out" was perhaps depending on the death of someone...... or similar.
Sue
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From John EVERETTs dc HOW LONG for duration of illness... That answer will help you to consider if Thomas was trying to make smoke screen to protect info re birth mum from Wilfred ...
Of course there is the failure of John's marriage either earlier than his assault of Julia or at least because of that to eliminate his wife from that role.
Cheers JM
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From John EVERETTs dc HOW LONG for duration of illness...
Normally, yes. In this case, given the cause of injury may have been misreported, the period stated may be inaccurate as well, but the period between injury and death was reported by witnesses at the inquest as between 7 and 5 weeks.
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This again is a little offbeat, but!...
Could the mother of Wilfred be one of the wives of one of the others EVERITT siblings, which resulted in the bashing of John his subsequent death and also the reason for the actual mother and her (Everitt) husband not to raise the child? ???
Neil ::)
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The death cert info re duration of illness is NOT provided by family informant. It is a separate section and is certified by a medico.
Yes it would be certified by the Coroner BUT is can also include additional info.... My question is about that section of the dc... In other words my question has little reason to rely on witness statements at the Inquest and more to do with medical facts. I NOW presume you dont actually have BDM certs yourself and are relying others giving you their summaries of their own interpretation of 19thc wording of their own selected documents.
Neil may have hit nail on the head ! and you need to access many NSW documents to develop a clear picture.
Cheers JM
From John EVERETTs dc HOW LONG for duration of illness...
Normally, yes. In this case, given the cause of injury may have been misreported, the period stated may be inaccurate as well, but the period between injury and death was reported by witnesses at the inquest as between 7 and 5 weeks.
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From NSW SRO website (re Deceased Estate Files, Probate Packets, Intestate Estate Case Papers)
http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/indexes-online/indexes-to-deceased-estates-and-related-records/indexes-to-deceased-estate-files
http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/guides-and-finding-aids/archives-in-brief/archives-in-brief-29
http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/guides-and-finding-aids/archives-in-brief/archives-in-brief-119
http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/indexes-online/indexes-to-deceased-estates-and-related-records/index-to-intestate-estate-case-papers
http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/guides-and-finding-aids/archives-in-brief/archives-in-brief-84
http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/indexes-online/indexes-online#p (scroll down to read Probate Packets info)
Cheers, JM
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When did Thomas’ own marriage break down … this question has been asked previously, but although Thomas married Harriet in 1876, …
I see a Thomas EVERETT being named as Co –respondent as early as 1877, and again in 1881. (The second time with a second co-respondent, Augustine Blake) Perhaps NOT the Thomas who was married to Harriet ?
http://srwww.records.nsw.gov.au/indexes/searchform.aspx?id=16
John Wilbraham EDWARDS v Louisa Calharnie EDWARDS
From NSW ER 1878, The HUME
John W EDWARDS had freehold at Bungowannah
Adding :
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/28383443 SMH 19 Dec 1881 (As an aside I see my Bradley rellies were the solicitors preparing the instructions for the respondent :) perhaps they told Thomas to refrain from attending court, someone certainly seems to have advised both co-respondents to stay away)
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/102062089 Dec 20 1881 Southern Argus ... if that's the chap who informed Wilfred as to who was Wilfred's Dad, then there's likely a list of friends who may have known who was Wilfred's mum :-X
Cheers, JM
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Just trying to get my brain working (vain hope!) and re-reading the thread.
You may already know this, there is a John James Everitt born 1880 reg Sydney mother Mary Ann father not listed
i believe this child died in 1880.
Death 1880, NSW, #2720
John J EVERETT
Mother's Name: Mary A
According to the 1878 Electoral Roll (posted by JM Reply #12)
John Joseph was a freeholder of land near Howlong,so why is there no mention of him on NSW "deceased estates"?
I don't think anyone has put up the newspaper account of John's death which does not help answer (to any great extent) JM's question re the 'length of illness' as he did not seek medical help for some time after the incident. He entered hospital on Saturday 12 March 1881 and died the next day. As his death was not sudden it seems likely that there would have been time for him to ask for his expected child to be looked after by his brother - whether that's what happened ......... ???
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/page/5062005
Judith
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I don't think anyone has put up the newspaper account of John's death which does not help answer (to any great extent) JM's question re the 'length of illness' as he did not seek medical help for some time after the incident. He entered hospital on Saturday 12 March 1881 and died the next day. As his death was not sudden it seems likely that there would have been time for him to ask for his expected child to be looked after by his brother - whether that's what happened ......... ???
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/page/5062005
And if he knew there was a baby "on the way" and he was prepared ask his brother to look after that baby, then surely both he and his brother knew who was actually pregnant with the baby .... :)
Cheers, JM
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Just trying to get my brain working (vain hope!) and re-reading the thread.
You may already know this, there is a John James Everitt born 1880 reg Sydney mother Mary Ann father not listed
i believe this child died in 1880.
Death 1880, NSW, #2720
John J EVERETT
Mother's Name: Mary A
I can only repeat this is not the right John. This is John James with mother Mary Ann.
The John in question is John Joseph with mother Catherine.
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perhaps they told Thomas to refrain from attending court, someone certainly seems to have advised both co-respondents to stay away)
Given Thomas' involvement with Mrs Edwards was a separate matter in 1877, and the case in question was Mrs Edwards indiscretions with two other men 1881, I'd be inclined to stay away as well whether I was advised or not.
Mrs Edwards sounds like a keeper.
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And if he knew there was a baby "on the way" and he was prepared ask his brother to look after that baby, then surely both he and his brother knew who was actually pregnant with the baby .... :)
We have no evidence (even anectodal) that John did know about the pregnancy or that it was him who asked.
I think we've already established John was a man of fairly poor character, and even if he did know, do we really think he would do the right thing? I'm inclined to think not.
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I can only repeat this is not the right John. This is John James with mother Mary Ann.
The John in question is John Joseph with mother Catherine.
Do you hold a copy of the 1880 NSW BDM birth registration document for John James EVERITT? (# 2745)
Do you hold a copy of the 1880 NSW BDM death registration document for John J EVERETT? (#2720)
Is it NOT worth considering that as you are looking for a birth registration for your Wilfred Charles EVERITT, that you ought to be checking the actual records (as opposed to the INDEX) for any births registered in that surname, especially where there is NO father noted? It could well be that your Wilfred was born in 1880 rather than in 1881 ...... afterall you already have two possible birth dates (May and June 1881) .... and your John Joseph was summoned on Indecent Assault charges in April 1880, so the assault was prior to those charges .... so Wilfred/Charles/Robert/Bob may well have been born say May or June 1880, rather than 1881 .... perhaps John Joseph was indeed himself assaulted sometime after October 1880 (ie after being found by the court to be not guilty of indecent assault on Julia) ....
You need to aim to get as close as possible to original documents from that period. Official transcriptions of NSW BDM original bdm registration documents are the better option, as they are cheaper, and can be delivered by email attachment. So you can get more primary documents for your pennies. Then of course, you can attend NSW SRO and look up the various files they hold there, and read these for yourself, take copies etc.
But please try to avoid relying on information you find on INDEXES ... they are simply pointing you to THE RECORDS and are not of themselves a record to use to confirm or eliminate a possible 'fact' when you are looking for clues to a family history mystery in NSW rural districts, in the 1870s and 1880s.... (or in any other era for that matter !).
Cheers, JM
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And if he knew there was a baby "on the way" and he was prepared ask his brother to look after that baby, then surely both he and his brother knew who was actually pregnant with the baby .... :)
We have no evidence (even anectodal) that John did know about the pregnancy or that it was him who asked.
I think we've already established John was a man of fairly poor character, and even if he did know, do we really think he would do the right thing? I'm inclined to think not.
I think if you are prepared to speculate about John Joseph in that way, you ought to also consider similar judgement on Thomas ..... thus bringing into consideration if Thomas was being truthful when (apparently perhaps Wilfred was 50 years old) he told Wilfred that his birth father was John Joseph ....
ADDING,
Have you checked Wilfred's other fostered siblings lines for when (or IF) anyone ever told them who their birth parent/s were?
Who told them, when were they told, did it turn out to be accurate information etc etc etc.
Cheers, JM
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According to the 1878 Electoral Roll (posted by JM Reply #12)
John Joseph was a freeholder of land near Howlong,so why is there no mention of him on NSW "deceased estates"?
Judith, I am sure you know that after I read this I set about double checking myself. And so :
;D ;D I can confirm the 1878 ER info is correctly transcribed by me to that post.
;D ;D I have diligently gone over and over and over the various different techniques I use to search the various online indexes that NSW SRO offers. NOUGHT in NSW SRO for death duties or winding up of the deceased estate.... I even tried sorting the headings by date and by location.
It is as though he had already disposed of the estate prior to his death .... that is another reason for suspecting the illness was protracted .... in NSW the 1880s it often took time to transfer freehold property, it took as long or longer than it does today.
The (NSW) Lands Titles Office (cannot recall their "OFFICIAL" current name at the moment) would be the place to start to follow up on that aspect.
http://www.lpi.nsw.gov.au/land_titles/historical_records_online
http://www.lpi.nsw.gov.au/land_titles/historical_records_online/historical_maps_cancelled_editions
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0vqt/ Link to Titles office etc.
HOWLONG : 1875 : in the Police District of ALBURY, in the Electorate of THE HUME, and in the county of HUME ..... this ought to help with online searching of Maps ....
Another couple of links too :
http://gazette.slv.vic.gov.au/
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=538663.0
Cheers, JM
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When did Thomas’ own marriage break down … this question has been asked previously, but although Thomas married Harriet in 1876, … JM
A child whose parents at death were recorded as Thomas and Harriet EVERITT died in 1886.
EVERIST (sic)Thos Jos
Father Thos Jos
Mother Harrt EVANS
Age 3Y
Death Place KMORE
Year 1886
Reg 5932
By 1887 the couple were estranged
Birth (registered also in the name of EVANS)
EVERITT Mary
Father-
Mother Harriet EVANS
Birth Place FOOT
Year 1887
Reg 11266R
Sue
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Not one to disagree much, but as I understand it.....If the father did not turn up to the registration then... the mother was not allowed to put the fathers name down.
My thought from that is maybe they weren't estranged in 1877 it was possibly that he just didn't bother to go to the registra. ???
Neil
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Back to the very first post on this thread. What was on Thomas' death certificate re Wilfred and who was the informant?
Regards
Jennaya
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Ummm
Rural NSW and the Part timer Deputy Registrar at the Local Court House would record what info he was given in answer to his questions.. The important 'present' or 'not present' on NSW birth certs refers to the baby. Women could register their births WITHOUT dragging 'husband' along... Specially if Clerk at Court House knew why husband could be absent .... away droving/shearing / in gaol/impersonating The Kelly Gang etc. ENglish laws re Birth rego had NO effct in the Colonies who had their own Laws and the locals recorded what they understood the BSW law wanted
Cheers (clunky 2 finger E reader) JM
Not one to disagree much, but as I understand it.....If the father did not turn up to the registration then... the mother was not allowed to put the fathers name down.
My thought from that is maybe they weren't estranged in 1877 it was possibly that he just didn't bother to go to the registra. ???
Neil
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So following on from Jennaya's question ... Please type up ALL the info on your copy of that death cert for Thomas ..
JM
"Wilfred was the son of Edward's brother John Joseph Everitt who had died in March 1881, shortly before Wilfred's birth ......
There are also several public trees that show Wilfred as the son of another brother, Thomas James Everitt. This error comes from information on Thomas' death certificate."
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You need to get Thomas dc
Could you help me some explanation of why you believe all this to be true.
Quote
"Wilfred was the son of Edward's brother John Joseph Everitt
Wilfred was told this by a family member.
John Joseph Everitt who had died in March 1881
That's a matter of record.
There are several public trees that show Wilfred's mother was John's wife Bertha Devery. However, it is believed within our branch of the family this is not correct.
This bit is family history. With no record of the birth, it's hard to prove or deny. And in theory Bertha could have given him up because her husband had died. Bertha's death record as Bertha Finn would be one option. But there appears to be no actual suggestion in the family she was Wilfred's mother or that she had anything to do with him and the attachment of her as his mother on family trees is probably just an assumption.
There are also several public trees that show Wilfred as the son of another brother, Thomas James Everitt. This error comes from information on Thomas' Wilfred's death certificate.
Sorry, my error there. That should have read Wilfred's death certificate, obviously. This information contradicts what Wilfred was told and to be an error made by the informant at the time. Again, it appears that people without that family knowledge of what Wilfred was told have simply taken the death record as correct - and as you know, death records can not always be relied on.
Now, you'll be wondering how we know what Wilfred was told. His daughters were interviewed by a granddaughter in the 80s. That person has also obtained copies of official records from the registry offices, visited local churches, court houses and cemeteries for more records and been tracing the Everitt family history for around 25 years. Now, I accept you can't always rely on people's memories, but Wilfred being told his real father was John was something that was very clearly recalled at the time.
The actual record of Wilfred's birth is one of the three remaining unsolved family mysteries.
Also when possible could you have a play with your surname interests and places and maybe put them across the lines without double spaces. The post get very tiresome t scroll through.
Done - I should have sorted that ages ago.
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Thomas
Did he wait until after his estranged wife died in 1929 before announcing that his own long deceased bro John Joseph was really Wilfred 's birth Dad .... So no-one around to contradict his announcement except Hannah .....
So errrrr How do you know Hannah was ever made aware of that "Thomas has 50 yr old News to share"
HAnnah may have been suffering Age Related Changes ....
Hearing/sight/memory/ etc
JM
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0vpr/
Thursday 15 April 1886
A death notice which is interestingly worded as it makes no mention of the father of this child.
It is interesting, but it was in the Kilmore paper, so may have been placed by Harriet's family and intended for people who ddin't know Thomas. Also mentions Harriet's father as the "late grandfather" but makes no mention of her mother
There are news item which mention a THOMAS EVERITT and they are generally concerned with horse stealing in the Howlong area. One item mentions his "brother LUKE"
JM note in middle of quote ..... (on e reader with tiny keyboard so not having PC screen ... agh ....)
Re Harrietts Obit
The usual way in that era was to refer to an adults father (but not mother) when describing a family relationship ie Mr Samuel Evans rather than Mr and Mrs Sanuel Evans ....
JM
Obituary
The few old friends left will regret to hear of the death of Mrs Harriet Everitt, which occurred on 18th instant at Toora. Deceased lady was a native of Kilmore ,and daughter of an old business man, Mr Samuel Evans,. who was amongst the earliest townsmen here.
Thursday 30 May 1929
Again, oddly no mention of Mrs Evans.
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Do you know what children were mentioned on Harriet's death certificate and who was the informant?
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I wonder about this wee babe's registration at NSW BDM's Sydney (Head) Office in 1881
His surname "Unknown"
His given name "Male Foundling"
His Dad's given name "Unknown"
His Mum's given name "Unknown"
The Registration no. is 310
Cheers, JM
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Re John James EVERETT, born 1880, mentioned several times already on this thread ....
Australian Town and Country Journal 15 Jan 1881 page 15. (a continuation from page 14, Answers to Correspondents.)
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/page/5061546
“ Dubbo asks – Have not some kind ladies provided a home in Sydney for friendless girls, who expect to shortly become mothers; if so, what name and address? We think the only home for such persons at present is the Benevolent Asylum, Pitt-street south. There is a Foundling Hospital at Ashfield where such accommodation may be provided, but we cannot say whether such is the case or note. The secretary of the first, or manager of the latter would do for the addresses”.
Here’s the link (as found on RChat’s NSW Resources board) for Sydney Benevolent Asylum Index to Admissions and Discharges…
Mary Ann EVERETT was admitted 31 May 1876 at age 16. George Henry EVERETT’s likely birth 9 July 1876.
George Henry EVERETT discharged 13 August 1876. Mary Ann EVERETT discharged 15 August 1876.
Mary Ann EVERETT admitted 5 August 1880 at age 20
John James EVERETT’s likely birth 31 August 1880
Both Mary Ann and John James EVERETT discharged 1 Nov 1880.
http://www.sydneybenevolentasylum.com/index.php?page=search-index
“.Summary of Results
If you find a POSITIVE match on this index, make a note of the name and date of admission or discharge for the person you have found. Enter these details in the Request Form and we will then provide you with the 'notes' field from our database where available. This can provide further identifying information” Well, if that was a surname associated with my NSW families in 1880, I would be at least following up to seek the 'notes' field info .....
Cheers, JM
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This Obituary for THOMAS moves swiftly over its mention of his wife ;D ;D :-X
Also interesting the way his 'experience' with horses is highlighted ;)
Albury Banner and Wodonga Express 11 August 1933
Mr. Thomas James Everitt, who died at the Wangaratta Hospital at tho age of '85 years, was born at Howlong. In his younger days he was an expert horseman. He was a good judge of horses, and bought, horses for India. Mr. Everitt for the past 19 years had lived at Kilfeera. His wife predeceas ed him many years ago.
Sue
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I do agree with JM that the info from the Sydney Benevolent Home would be worth following up but I think that this is the death of that child:
Death 1880, NSW, #2720
John J EVERETT
Mother's Name: Mary A
Judith
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From this 1924 cutting, we can clearly see that Harriett was a business woman, a Nurse at Toora. I think the 1903 Electoral Roll has same occupation for her.
.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/4365155 The Argus 10 May 1924
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/4678805 The Argus, 22 March 1922
Here is Nurse Everitt in 1908 at Euroa
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/65620687 Euroa Advertiser 29 May 1908
Here is Nurse Everitt’s private hospital in 1903 at Euroa
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/65641839 Euroa Advertiser 20 March 1903
Speculating if I may …. So perhaps back at Howlong in 1880/1 Harriett knew the ‘big picture’ perhaps Harriett was the midwife at the birth of Wilfred, but I cannot see Thomas being her long term live in husband.
Sue found these Obit cuttings previously:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/58086679 30 May 1929 Kilmore Free Press (Harriett)
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/102274739 11 August 1933 Albury Banner (Thomas)
Whoever supplied that info to the Albury Banner in August 1933 obviously was not aware that Thomas’ wife predeceased him only FOUR years previously, and that she was clearly NOT at Kilfeera when he had been living there throughout the 1920s. I can speculate that whoever provided that info in 1933 was basing it on info Thomas had shared with them previously. ….
Cheers, JM
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Well, if that was a surname associated with my NSW families in 1880, I would be at least following up to seek the 'notes' field info
I'll let you know the response when it comes.
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I have received the response from the operaters of the Sydney Benevolent Society Asylum Database, which is privately run and not actually connected to the Benevolent Society.
There is only a small amount of extra information on the repsone that is not already shown in the search function.
The child George Henry was not just discharged on 13 August 1876, he died that day.
On her second admission in 1880 Mary Ann is shown as Native, which by the definition supplied with the record denotes born in Australia rather than Aboriginal.
According to the response, obtaining copies of the full records comes at a cost, but may not actually reveal any further details. Even researching the information yourself at the Mitchell Library requires payment of an access fee to the Society.
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So it looks like you will need to actually seek out some documents from official records to help you advance your quest. Of course these will involve you spending some pennies.
On her second admission in 1880 Mary Ann is shown as Native, which by the definition supplied with the record denotes born in Australia rather than Aboriginal.
Yes, Native means exactly that, born in the same colony/state/country that the person currently resides in. So, for example, on Convict records it shows their "NP" ie their Native Place, the place where they believe they came from (born/ raised from a young age) On the passenger lists for the Bounty Schemes, Native Place often shows the village and the county. So, on NS Wales records, Native therefore refers to people born in N S Wales to parents born elsewhere, or to parents born in N S Wales. It does not, of itself, give any indication of a person's race.
So it makes good sense to consider that the 1880 record is most likely indicating that Mary Ann EVERETT, the lass aged 20, a mother, and a "Native" was simply born in the colony, ie born in N S Wales, in 1860 ish.
NSW BDM online index has a Mary A S EVERETT birth registered that may be of interest to help you confirm or eliminate the lass as a potential mother for Wilfred. Registered in 1859 to Alfred and Amelia. #973. Registered in Sydney.Alfred and Amelia seem to have had a number of children.
Cheers, JM
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http://www.rootschat.com/links/0vpr/
Thursday 15 April 1886
A death notice which is interestingly worded as it makes no mention of the father of this child.
It is interesting, but it was in the Kilmore paper, so may have been placed by Harriet's family and intended for people who ddin't know Thomas. Also mentions Harriet's father as the "late grandfather" but makes no mention of her mother
There are news item which mention a THOMAS EVERITT and they are generally concerned with horse stealing in the Howlong area. One item mentions his "brother LUKE"
This is Thomas senior. Luke is a brother of Thomas, John and Edward. One of the articles made me smile - published in 1885 it reports Thomas' confession to horse stealing in 1868, and is headlined "Horse Stealing In The Old Days". Funny to think that in 1885 they already thought of 1868 as the "old days".
The impression I get is that the first generation of Everitt sons were typical "wild colonial boys". Google the 100 mile horse race at Howlong for more adventures of Tom (Thomas) and Jack (John Joseph). That one even made international news - well, it was reprinted in a New Zealand paper, anyway.
Obituary
The few old friends left will regret to hear of the death of Mrs Harriet Everitt, which occurred on 18th instant at Toora. Deceased lady was a native of Kilmore ,and daughter of an old business man, Mr Samuel Evans,. who was amongst the earliest townsmen here.
Thursday 30 May 1929
Again, oddly no mention of Mrs Evans.
This is a bit late I know, and not sure if you've already made mention of this, but the wife of Samuel Evans was Bridget Mary Ann McCarthy, born abt 1834 in Co. Waterford, Ireland. Came to Melbourne as a famine orphan in 1849 aboard the 'New Liverpool' at the age of 15, engaged by John Watson in Melbourne for a year as a domestic servant and later married Samuel Evans in 1851, they had twelve children together and she died 1875 in Kilmore. Marriage and Death certs. attached. I also have certificates for Harriett and her son Samuel Joseph Everitt, whom is my Great-Great Grandfather.
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To neb_maat
Hello, I am a bit late responding to your post on Wilfred Charles Everitt, as it is dated 2013, but I have just found your post. I probably won't be much help to you, as I do not know who the parents are of Wilfred. I just wanted to mention that I am the great niece of Hannah Maria Everitt (nee True). My maternal grandfather was Edward Pickering "Ned" True, who was Hannah's brother. About 10 years ago I made contact with a grandaughter of Wilfred who lived at Dandenong, Victoria, and she also was looking to solve the mystery of Wilfred's parentage, but with no success. I am originally from Gundagai but now live in Wagga. I have traced the True family back to the 1660s in Market Deeping, Lincolnshire. regards, from Aurora.
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Hi Aurora
Thanks for the message.
A* from Dandenong is my mother's 1st cousin and we collaborate to build on her research.
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Does anyone think it is just possible that Wilfred/Charles (Whatever) was just informally adopted by the EVERITT family. As there were no formal adoptions until mid 1920's in NSW.
Hi Neil
This was always an intriguing possibility.
However, I recently arranged for y-DNA testing of my uncle Axxx, a male-line of Wilfred and Nxxx, a male line descendant of Thomas Everitt. Nxxx is presumed to be Axxx's 3rd cousin.
Axxx and Nxxx have a near perfect match with a genetic distance of 1 at 67 markers. This means they have a recent common male ancestor. This does not prove that the recent common male ancestor is Luke but he is the most likely candidate.
It also does not prove which son of Luke's would be Wilfred's father. Future autosomal testing of other relatives may assist with confirming that. Testing a descendant of Bertha Mary Catherine Everitt and Alured Tasker Faunce might be revealing.
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To Neb_maat
Was Edward James Everitt married twice? In other words, did he have another wife besides Hannah Maria True? I remember years ago seeing a family tree online which listed two marriages. I was always going to check it out, but never did. If he did marry twice, have you the details on the other marriage? My contact who lives in the Dandenongs never mentioned a second marriage. from Aurora.
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To Neb_maat
Was Edward James Everitt married twice?
Hi Aurora
I have never seen or heard anything to suggest that he had any other wife other than Hannah.
There are some interesting trees out there.
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I think from memory I found the tree at Ancestry.Com at the Wagga Library. I usually only access Ancestry at the library because they have a subscription and it is free. Next time I go into the library I will look again. I agree there are some interesting trees floating around, especially on Ancestry. I have found numerous inaccuracies in various branches of my family, or some of my family hijacked into someone else's tree, who are nothing to do with my family. Thanks for your reply. from Aurora.
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Hi, I just found this thread. I believe it likely that Wilfred (Wilf or Bob) was the son of John Joseph (JJ) Everitt and his wife, Bertha Devery. Some backgound: John Joseph's youngest sister Margaret(Everitt) married Bertha's brother Michael (Devery) so the two families were closely linked. Bertha and JJ already had a daughter at the time of JJ's death. Bertha was close to my grandfather and he remained in contact with JJ's and Bertha's daughter, his cousin x2 (Bridget Everitt) into her adult life including when she was married and moved to Cootamundra. My uncle told me that Bertha asked my grandfather to be involved in her estate. Supposedly, when he mentioned 'Wilf' being included as a beneficiary she didn't want that. Her death certificate does not mention her son. That might be seen to lend weight to the theory that he was not her son but she might have had many other reasons. My uncle's account indicated that my grandfather saw himself as Wilfred's first cousin (twice as per the marriages listed above - both sharing the same two pairs of grandparents). There is no doubt that JJ got himself into serious trouble with the law on more than one occasion. JJ's behaviour and Wilfred being raised by his uncle have certainly given rise to speculation. On the other hand, Bertha had one child already and, both her own parents already being deceased at the time of JJ's death, it would not be surprising for her to have, at some time, handed JJ over to her childless in-laws. Remember her brother was still married to Margaret Everitt. It might even have been intended to be a temporary arrangement when it was made. Those sort of arrangements were not unique at that time (and experience tells me they still happen today). Later in life Bertha remarried but there were no children from that union. I was once taken to see the house where she had lived in her old age (even though she had passed away some decades prior). Bertha was the first non indigenous girl born in the Beechworth area having been born on the goldfields at Woolshed, just out of Beechworth at the beginning of 1854. JJ's daughter Bridget (Wilf's sister - or at least half sister) married into a family which had a distinguished history in Australia and Canada though I was told that it wasn't a totally happy marriage. JJ's and Bertha's daughter Bridget's father-in-law was an Anglican canon. Her brother-in-law (and Wilfred's brother-in-law) was a Lieutenant with the 6th Regiment of the 2nd Light Horse Brigade in the Australian Light Horse, who served in the Gallipoli Campaign, Battle of Romani and Battle of Beersheba (1917) in the First World War. Bridget's own sons would have been the first cousins (or at least half first cousins, depending on who you believe to be Wilfred's mother) of Wilfred's children. Hope some of this is sharing is helpful even though it doesn't offer definitive proof as to whom gave birth to Wilfred Everitt. Cheers JS :)
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Hi Judy
Thanks for posting this. It is interesting to read the story from the Devery perspective and to hear that your grandfather considered Bob to be his cousin.
As I posted above, autosomal DNA testing a descendant of Bertha Mary Catherine Everitt and Alured Tasker Faunce might be revealing. There are now two grandchildren of Bob Everitt who have bee tested.
Testing of a close enough Devery descendant might also be interesting.
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Sorry, I might have repeated some of the info already posted as I'd only skimmed the previous posts. I was sort of putting the Devery/Everitt perspective, being a descendant of the Margaret Everitt/Michael Devery marriage and also being a cousin via another relationship. As well as Wilfred being my grandfather's first cousin (possibly twice), Bertha was related to my grandmother (first cousin once removed) so potentially my grandmother was Wifred's second cousin.
I'm not sure that DNA testing of the Faunce descendants would resolve the issue entirely due to Bridget and Wilf potentially being first cousins once or twice. but I'm no expert. I have not been able to locate living descendants of Bridget to date. It would be nice for Wilfred's descendants (and all of us interested) to be solve the mystery. Cheers
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A grandchild of Bertha Mary Catherine Everitt and Alured Tasker Faunce would be either the second cousin or the half-second cousin of a grandchild of Bob Everitt.
The expected amount of shared DNA for those two relationships is quite distinct and would certainly clarify whether or not Bridget Bertha Connors Devery was Bob's mother.
The potential for shared DNA for a grandchild of Bob with a grandchild of the child of Michael Devery and Margaret Everitt resolving the question is less clear - I'd have to get my head around that.
EDIT: I have my head around it now. A grandchild of the child of Michael Devery and Margaret Everitt and a grandchild of Bob Everitt would either be 3rd cousins (through Margaret alone) or double 3rd cousins (once through Margaret and once through Michael). The expected amount of shared DNA for those two relationships should still be distinct enough to clarify whether or not Bridget Bertha Connors Devery was Bob's mother.
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Sorry, in my first post I mentioned Bertha when I meant Bridget Bertha. Bridget Bertha Devery was the mother of Bertha Mary (after her grandmother Mary Connors/Devery and Catherine after her grandmother Catherine Considine/Everitt. Apology for the error.