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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: Wilbs on Tuesday 13 August 13 06:18 BST (UK)
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There's a theme restaurant/pub on the corner of Queens Road & Hendham Vale Manchester currently known as the Hellfire Club. Does anyone know the history of the establishment and what it may have been called in the 1880s? Can anyone suggest how I find out the landlord's name in 1886? (Assuming that the property was around then)
Thank you
Wilbs
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Hello,
It was called The Junction (http://images.manchester.gov.uk/Display.php?irn=41362&QueryPage=%2Findex.php%3Fsession%3Dpass&session=pass&QueryName=BasicQuery&QueryPage=%2Findex.php%3Fsession%3Dpass&Anywhere=SummaryData&StartAt=44961) at some point.
The address seems to have been 1- 5 Hendham Vale and in 1881, Job Page and his family were there. https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XQ8X-L96
Does this help?
Regards
Heywood
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Hi
It used to be the "Junction Hotel" - Photographed 1966
http://shrinkalink.com/66161
http://shrinkalink.com/66162
1972 - Gives it's official address as:
http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/45677/pages/6212/page.pdf
Junction Hotel, Queens Road, 1-5 Hendham Vale, Harpurhey, Manchester
The building housing the "Junction Hotel" was there as early as 1906 - this photograph shows the side of the building as it turns into Hendon Vale (compare to the 1966 Photo)
http://shrinkalink.com/66163
http://shrinkalink.com/66164
Cheers
AMBLY
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The Page family were still there in 1891 3250/62/40
The name of the pub is difficult to read but looks like 'Junction Hotel'
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;D I think it looks like "Junction Hotel" in 1891
Cheers
AMBLY
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That's good. I could see Junction but 'hotel' is not as clear.
I drive past it regularly and didn't realise it is a restaurant ::)
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Some interesting reviews about it - and an interesting history on the "Hellfire Clubs" ;D
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellfire_Club
".....name for several exclusive clubs for high society rakes established in Britain and Ireland in the 18th century...."
What do you reckon about Hotel name 1871 - the enumerator has a script style all his own, I think it's a rendering of "Junction" - Job Page is there at 1 Hendham Vale.
RG10 / Piece 4055 / Folio 47 / Page 23
In 1861 Job was in Crumpsall at the Horse Shoe Inn.
Cheers
AMBLY
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Yes, I saw the reviews ;)
1871 - Junction Hotel and in 1861 it looks as though Martha is the licensee and he is a porter.
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Thank you all for the prompt and excellent replies, especially the links to the photos and websites. Lots of reading for me.
Best wishes
Wilbs
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BREWSTER SESSIONS .
Manchester Times Saturday, August 27, 1870
Job Page , Queens Park Hotel, 1 Crompton Lane
THE BREWSTER SESSIONS .
Manchester Times . Saturday, September 7, 1872
Public house licence was asked to be granted to Junction Inn to Job Page , it was said Job was a respectable man and had kept the house for three years. Application was refused.
BREWSTER SESSIONS .
Manchester Times Saturday, September 5, 1874
Application for a spirit licence at the Junction Hotel, Hollyvale, Collyhurst , proprietor Job Page who said that he had added a storey to his house and improved it`s front elevation in consequence made to him by the city improvement committee, who had led him to understand that they would lend their countenance and approval to this application
BREWSTER SESSIONS .
Manchester Times Saturday, September 4, 1875
Application licence Job Page, Junction Hotel
MANCHESTER LICENSING SESSIONS .
Manchester Times Saturday, September 1, 1877
Job Page who applied for the eighth time for premises at the corner of Queens Road and Smedley Road . Application opposed on behalf of owners of property in the neighbourhood.
On searching for a Junction Inn or Hotel, it seems nearly every town in Lancashire had one !
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Thank you Wilcoxon, fascinating reply. Is it possible to search The Brewster Sessions for a specific person? Job & Martha Page are not related to me, but I have (supposedly) a licensed victualler in the family in the 1800s who is proving to be very elusive. I say "supposedly" as all searches have returned a zero result and there's doubt whether he existed (illegitimate children) or name changed.
Thank you
Wilbs
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If you give the names and date range, and any other details you have then I can take a look.
It does sound quite intriguing.
Am I right in guessing a child was born in 1886 and he was named as the father ?
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Thank you Wilcoxon for your very kind offer.
It's not as straight forward as a simple illegitimate child, and I've been searching for a breakthrough with my paternal family for years. Every so often I find a possible lead, but limited success.
My family is Wilberforce and sisters Ida and Grace suddenly appear in Toxteth Park in Liverpool on the 1891 census. I've posted several times on Rootschat trying to find these ladies before 1891 and a very good lead led me to "Slaters Diectory of Manchester & Salford 1886 Alphabetical part 1 and there on page 435 are the sisters as Householders living at what looks like 158 Hendham and Queens Road. All official documents that I can find on the sisters (marriage & death certificates but unfortunately no birth certifictes) refer to their father as Herbert Wilberforce, Licensed Victualler.
When I realised that there was a hotel at this road junction, and the street number was 1, 3, 5 I wondered if this belong to a family member, but Job & Martha Page appear to have been the landlords throughout this time period.
I won't repeat all my Wilberforce research here, but the conclusion reached by all was that the sisters appear to be hiding their past, very possibly by a name change and that the name Wilberforce, and more especially father Herbert could be fictitious. If I could prove that there was never a Herbert Wilberforce born in the early 1800 who ran a pub/hotel then I could put this matter to rest once and for all and accept that this branch of the family is a dead end.
If you do have access to The Brewers Sessions and could check for any listing for a Herbert Wilberforce I would be very appreciative.
Thank you
Wilbs
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So far I`ve found nothing at all. The only Herbert Wilberforce seems to be linked to the slave trade.
Search for Brewster Sessions only gives me what I`ve already found, maybe they called them something else after, but even so the name doesn`t show.
The only remote link is this.
BURGLARIES AT MOSS SIDE .
Manchester Times Friday, July 7, 1899;
William Wilberforce Taylor licencee of the Prince of Wales Hotel
Ida and Grace just don`t seem to exist, very odd. I did find Ida`s burial but she is entered as Ada,
BMD date matches so I think it must be her.
Was she Catholic ?
BMD Ida Wilberforce. ***
Liverpool Catholic Burials
Ada Wilberforce Birth Year 1841
Age:70 Death Year: abt 1911
Burial Date: 12 Feb 1911
Parish: Yew Tree Cemetery
There are MI`s on this site, but no search option ::) and it does seem not all sections have been transcribed, scroll down to bottom of page.
http://www.yewtreecemetery.co.uk/
A quick look shows many of the families are Irish descent.
http://www.yewtreecemetery.co.uk/pdf/Yew_Tree_Sec_1A.pdf
Not much help I`m afraid. It does look like the ladies were quite well off, they would have to pay for inclusion in the Directories.
As for Ida` occupation, a bit of Googling found this.
A relief stamper was involved in producing embossed writing paper, envelopes
1891 90 Handel St Toxteth
Ida Wilberforce 46 retired relief stamper b India 1841
Grace Wilberforce 39 born London Hammersmith 1852
Mary A Burns 2 neice b Liverpool c 1899
I`ll see if I can find anything linked to the address in 1886. I have heard that directories were printed about a year after they were drawn up, so the sisters may have been somewhere else by 1886. Not that it makes much difference here.
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Hi Wilbs,
I remembered Ida and Grace well when I saw your post ::) ;). I even had another look round today to see if somehow we had missed something.
Wilcoxon,
the previous work is here:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=420868.0
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=542177.0
It would be great to find something new. :)
heywood
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Thank you Heywood & Wilcoxon for your help. Even the detail that the ladies may have been well off moves us slightly forward. The house they lived in in Liverpool seems to have been substantial by Victorian standards so this matches. And yes, Catholic, which surprised us all, especially as Grace later marries an Irish Protestant.
I wondered for some time if there was a connection to Henry William Wilberforce, (1807 - 1873) the Anglican Clergyman who later converted to the Catholic Church. There doesn't seem to be a bloodline but maybe the sisters knew or admired his work and adopted his name. The timeframe is correct and Herbert/Henry as a father figure
I got excited for a while over sisters Agnes (1844) and Grace (1856) Smith from Arbroath, Scotland but these ladies were not mine.
The only others on my to-do list are Amelia Wilberforce (born 1844 in Leeds) living with niece Hester Whittaker (born 1860 in Leeds). Amelia's parents however are Joseph & Mary and she was baptized CofE so I can almost dismiss this entry.
I also came across a Grace and Ida who were nuns/novices serving together but I need to visit my very old notes.
Sorry I'm rambling again, but this branch of the family is so frustrating.Thank you all for your help and interest. U3A lunch today so that will take my mind off things.
Best wishes
Wilbs
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Me again.
Sorry my Catholic Nun theory has gone. The ladies concerned were Grace Cowper born Hammersmith in 1854 and Ada Bellamy born London 1845. I have traced them forward thought the 1891, 1901 & 1911 censuses so they are not mine.
Best wishes
wilbs
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Just reading over the old threads. Did you ever find Mary Ida's baptism - not that it helps much. Mum is formerly Wilberforce and godmother is Ida Wilberforce! They kept themselves to themselves :)
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Yes, thank you Heywood. Birth & baptism certificates for Mary Ida Burns didn't help and as you state, they kept themselves to themselves. The only person present at the deaths of the sisters were in-house as well. Grace present at death of sister Ida and daughter Mary Ida present at the death of her mother Grace.
The only "outsider" appears to be one of the witnesses at Grace's wedding - Nicolas Bailey but I suppose that he could have come from the groom's side. I always thought it strange that given the closeness of the sisters that Ida wasn't a witness. I hope there wasn't a rift because of the Catholic/Protestant union. The sisters continued to live together for another 14 years after the wedding so it turned out OK.
Best wishes
Wilbs
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"Slaters Diectory of Manchester & Salford 1886 Alphabetical part 1 and there on page 435 are the sisters as Householders living at what looks like 158 Hendham and Queens Road.
Wilbs
Hopefully this will show the address is 113 Hendham. I can`t find it on the 1881 census showing Job Page, maybe it`s on another schedule
In the 1879 Slaters , an Ann Mangnall householder is living at the same address.
I can`t find her anywhere else.
This is all I can find on Warwick St, sadly no name to apply to.
Liverpool Mercury Saturday, October 2, 1880
To let house and shop. Apply on the premises 76 Warwick Street Toxteth.
Whether this is the same address I don`t know .
Liverpool Mercury Thursday, August 13, 1885;
Wanted respectable girl accustomed to milking
76 Upper Warwick Street Toxteth
Liverpool Mercury etc (Liverpool, England), Thursday, September 9, 1886
As above
Not much help I`m afraid :'(
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1881 piece 4008; folio 94; page 16
113 Hendham Vale has a Thomas Ford, wife Emma Eliza and child Annie. :-\ He is a clerk in a warehouse.
I found an Ann Mangnall in 1861, Bradford Road, and then 1871 with her family in Crumpsall.
Marriage December 1878 : Annie Mangnall to Edward Jacques both give their address as 113 Hendham Vale. He is a Lithographic Printer and she is a winder. In 1881 they are living in Broughton, Salford.
So no joy there either. :'(
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Marriage December 1878 : Annie Mangnall to Edward Jacques both give their address as 113 Hendham Vale. He is a Lithographic Printer and she is a winder. In 1881 they are living in Broughton, Salford.
So no joy there either. :'(
Well - I suppose there may be a link in Ida`s occupation.
Both she and Edward Jacques are in the printing business. Still no breakthrough though???
http://desktoppub.about.com/cs/printing/g/reliefprinting.htm
http://desktoppub.about.com/cs/printing/g/lithography.htm
1891 90 Handel St Toxteth
Ida Wilberforce 46 retired relief stamper b India 1841
Grace Wilberforce 39 born London Hammersmith 1852
Mary A Burns 2 neice b Liverpool c 1899
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Thank you Wilcoxon & Heywood. Although not the breakthrough wished for these a a few more bits to add to the picture and a step forward. I didn't know that 76 Warwick street contained a shop (Grace ran a laundry from there and I always imagined it in a dark basement, but a shop frontage is a bit more respectable) and you have clarified the Hendham Vale address as 113.
Next stage for me would be to look at the Jacques family and see if we have names in common.
Just one question - the repeat ad in the Liverpool Mercury in Sept 1886, was it for house & shop rental or milkmaid?
Thank you
Wilbs
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the milkmaid :)
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Maybe just a coincidence, but in the 1886 Directory, a John Page is the licensee of the 'Smedley Hotel' just further along Hendham Vale. But, is the Page connection a red herring?
Hendam Vale as far as I know, wasn't an 'affluent' area at the time, so if the sisters came into money, maybe it was after this time. I fact, I would assume the air would have been pretty foul, due to the types of industry along the river. The river certainly wasn't pleasant. There are some photos of Hendham Vale on Manchester Images
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Wilberforce doesn't seem a common name in Manchester and the only licensee seems to be the one in Moss Side, mentioned earlier. Maybe he is connected in some way, through adoption.
As for the other residents of 113, they may mean nothing. I had many ancestors who lived around that area and they seemed to moved house every time they changed their socks.
Eric
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Thank you ele002.
I suppose my next question must be why the sisters listed in the Slaters Directory. If you had to pay to do so, and this deprived area was the only place they could afford to live, why would they spend any money just to tell people that they were Householders. Does Householders mean that they own the property or just rent it?
I can't see any "profit" in advertising. I could understand if they ran a business or wanted others to believe that they were better off than they were but to waste money without any gain doesn't make sense.
Of course, if they were linked to the company that possibly printed the directory as suggested previously, then may be the entry was slipped in as a free-bee. This may be another tenuous link for me to explore.
Thank you all once again for you help and giving me another prospective on this frustrating family, and please accept my apologies for taking this thread so far off it's original topic.
Best wishes
Wilbs
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It was an archivist that told me about people paying to be included in the directories, but from the Historical Directories site that may have not been so for all.
The ways in which publishers collected data also varied considerably. Some obtained information by personal canvassing and combined the results with existing listings.
Other publishers simply asked people to send in their names together with a small payment if they wanted to be included in the directory.
http://www.historicaldirectories.org/hd/ud/usingdir1.asp
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I bought the Hellfire in 2006 which was indeed formerly the Junction Inn and before that the Junction Hotel. When we were renovating we discovered a cigarette packet underneath the floorboards upstairs dated 1886 so we knew the building was at least that old. It has been interesting to read that it is in fact older dating back to at least the 1860s. The address is 1-5 Hendham vale but it has 3 postcodes of which two of them are totally irrelevant to the area so we use M9 5FF, the Queens rd postcode. It has also been very interesting to read of the original landlord and the battle he had to make it a pub, previously we had only known about as far back as the 60's - 70's, the most famous of landlords in the 80's being Peter Whelan. If anyone can tell me more of the buildings history in the intervening years, especially over the wars, I would be very interested to know anything you might have.
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Does anyone know the history of the establishment and what it may have been called in the 1880s? Can anyone suggest how I find out the landlord's name in 1886? (Assuming that the property was around then)
Hi Maverick1db,
Welcome to Rootschat ! Very interesting hear from the current owner.
I'm very taken with the idea that the cigarette packet dated 1886 that you found may have contained cigarettes smoked by the landlord from 1886 whom the OP, wilbs, seeks ;D ;D
Cheers
AMBLY
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Unfortunately I let the builder who found the packet have it and it was empty so no DNA. I would have thought it maybe from the builders back then but that would slightly contradict the statement that the top floor was added around 1873. After all, it was under the floorboards so more likely to be a builder and there is a possibility it may have been when the electric wiring was first put in.
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Hi Maverick,
This isn't much but you never know... Annie Hamlet's address was shown as The Junction Hotel when she was married to Harold George (my relly) in 1905.Harold lived in Hendham Vale and in 1901 Annie's parents were Henry Moses Hamlet and Sarah Ann Moses and were the Licensees of The Robin Hood Hotel,Barton Road,Stretford.Maybe they moved to The Junction but Henry Moses and Sarah Ann were dead by 1904... To be or not to be ... sorry couldn't resist ! :D
There's loads of local history with The Junction at the junction of Collyhurst - Harpurhey - Smedley - Cheetham borders. You may know Smedley Old Hall ( one time home of the Chethams) was down Hendham Vale along with Elkie Brooks' dad's bakery Bookbinders, just for starters.
BB
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Some fantastic old photos (1906) of the Hellfire Club/Junction Inn/Hotel and the houses next to it can be found on the images site
http://images.manchester.gov.uk/index.php?session=pass
Search for "Junction Hotel"
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Extract from 1873 Post Office Directory
1863 Job Page was a shopkeeper, James Street, Crumpsall