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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: londonliffen on Thursday 01 August 13 08:41 BST (UK)
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I'm at present stuck on my Family Tree. I'm a South London Liffen, and I've got as far back as my Grandfather.Sadly, I've lost my father now but a few years ago when i mentioned that the Liffen name was common in Norfolk (we have a holiday home at Hemsby) he commented" All i know is that the Liffens had to leave Norfolk in a hurry". He had been told that by someone in the family as a child.My Grandfather was born in South London in 1894 so it was before then.I know that sounds very sinister but I've come to a halt on the tree and maybe someone on the forum might be able to offer some advice.I would so very much like to establish some roots in Norfolk if possible.
Thanks in anticipation.
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When and where wasyour grandfather born? And what was his name?
Hopefully you can trace further back and then you will see where your Liffens lived in earlier years
Modified - sorry, you did say he was born south london 1894. - so have you got him in 1901 census? Hopefully with parents? Or got his birth cert? If you want help looking for these, then we will need his full name and any other info you know about him (siblings etc).
Also, if you have his marriage cert to your gran, that should show his fathers name?
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Sorry, I shouldwait for your reply, but I was wondering if this is grandads birth?
Jul/Aug/Sep 1894
St Olave Southwark
Ref
1d 28
James Liffen
In which case here he is in 1901
RG 13 365 76 14
4 Spurgeon House, Crosslet Street, sourhwark
James 43 widower Leather dresser
John 19 son Leather dresser
Arthur 16 Leather dresser
Ellen 13
Emily 12
Frederick 9
James 6 all bn Bermonsey
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Assuming Grandad was called James, and therefore that was him in 1901 with widowed Dad,also James' then here is greatgrandad and the family 10 years earlier in 1891
RG12 372 80 19
16 Lunard? ? Street, Bermonsey
James 34 Leather dresser
Lucy 32 wife
James 14
Lucy 12
John 9
Arthur 6
Ellen 3
Emily 2 all bn Bermonsey
As they have an older son also called James, I would imagine he died before 1894, and then they called anotber child James (your grandad). A common practice
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Death
Oct/Nov/Dec 1899
St Savioirs Southwark
Ref 1d 16
Lucy Liffen
Age 41
And possible
Death
Jul/Aug/sep 1893
London city
Ref 1c 13
James John Liffen
Age 17
I wont do any more research till I know if I am following tbe right family or not!
If grandad was not called James, then I am not!
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There have been 2/3 postings re. this but there hasn't been any response from Londonliffen.
Annette
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Londonliffen is offline now.
Hopefully will respond next time he/she comes on to Rootschat.
I see he/she is on here only between 8am and 9am, so maybe there we will get some more info tomorrow morning!
I'm so tempted to keep researching ...... I reckon James must be him, as was the only South London Liffen birth in 1894, tho' if I remember rightly there was also one in Greenwich or somewhere else vaguely London-y.
But I must be sensible(!) , no point in putting pages of census info on here, then Londonliffen replies and says grandad was called Fred or something .... Would only be confusing!
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Thank you for your very prompt reply, you are very kind.
I do agree with your details at 4 Spurgeon House as I had also found them in that Census!
My Fathers Father was Frederick Liffen, 1894-1951. That I do know.His father I believe was James Liffen,born 1859 married to Adelaine/Adelaide (surname unknown) but believed born 1859 also.(1901 census, page 62, (ancestry names him as "ludwick Liffer")living at 7 Edward Hse, Potier St..
my Fathers Mother was Mary Laws 1895-1963. I believe her Father to be John Henry Law born 1847.
They lived at 179 Barnham St Buildings on these dates-1910, 1915, 1918 (Electoral Roll)
in the 1861 census I have a James "Leffin" aged 6 , father john Leffin (40) and wife eliza (34) living at no. 8 Mellicks place, a very poor area.
In the 1871 Census,i have a James "Leffen" aged 15, living at 39 Mellicks Place, it's the right area, the Head of the family Eliza, born Ramsgate 1827.Could this be him do you think? Has James now died?
I also have the 1891 Census, 16 "Linard St), this was near Grange Walk, again near Mellicks place.
This is very confusing and I wonder if I'm wrong?-1881 Census James "Leffen" aged 26, married to Lucy aged 23-.Is this my GGGF or not I wonder?
I have built the tree as much as I can, its on Ancestry Uk, named "Liffen Family Tree New" and I wonder if you can access it?
Thank you all for your help.
Henry
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Your Frederick Liffen was b.10/10/1894 and baptised 15/2/1895 St. Saviour, Southwark, son of Frederick Liffen and wife Adelaide. Frederick senior was a Tanners Labourer.
Frederick junior enlisted in the Royal Field Artillery on 6/8/1914 but discharged 16/6/1915 - no reason given for discharge. States he was in France from 3/10/1914 to 4/5/1915. Next of kin given as his parents Frederick and Adelaide.
So mistranscribed 'Ludwick' on census was Frederick.
As yet have not found marriage between Frederick and Adelaide.
Annette
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Found them on 1891 Census as Laffan in Bermondsey - ref.RG12 - 380 - 14 - 24.
Don't wish to disrespect your family but Frederick and Adelaide are not too hot on ages from 1891 census onwards. The one consistent thing is they both give their birthplace as Bermondsey but it varies from 1859 to 1866 so far!!
As yet not found them before 1891 - can see why you've had problems.
Annette
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OK
So if YOUR one was Frederick born 1894, so of Frederick and Adelaide, then the 1901 census I found in Spurgeon place, son of James and Lucy is NOT the right one. So we can ignore my first few posts.
Starting from scratch with the name Frederick, here is his birth (indexed Leffen)
Oct/Nov/Dec 1894
St Savioirs Southwark
Ref 1d 21
And Annette has found his christening confirming parents as Frederick and Adelaide.
They have been found in 1901, here is the full transcription:
RG 13 388 167 60
7 Edward House, Peter Road, Bermonsey
Frederick 42 Dock labourer
Adelaide 42
Mary 5
Julia 3
Frederick 2 all bn Bermonsey
As Annette said, ages are not that accurate!
Back 10 years to 1891 (again has been found,but here is full transcription):
RG12 380 14 24
21 St Johns Place Bermonsey
Fred 25 gen labourer
Adelaide 25
Adelaide 10
Emily 6
Eliza 5
Mary 7 mths
Again, ages not good compared with 1901!
Then, as everyone else found, the trail goes cold.
I would suggest maybe the next step would be to send for Frederick's birth cert (www.gro.gov.uk) to find a maiden name for Adelaide?
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Christenings of some of the children -
Eliza Frances 31 Oct 1886 Bermonsey St Mary
Elizabeth 23 Sep 1888 Walworth St John
Mary 1 Mar 1891 Bermonsey St Luke
Julia 19Mar 1893 Bermonsey St Mary
Frederick 15 April 1895 Southwark St Saviour
So they moved round the Churches!
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Elizabeth marries Arthur French on 24 Feb 1908, father Frederick Liffen, waterside labourer
Mary marries Sidney Baker on 14 May 1911 (witnesses Emily and WilliamDwyer), father Frederick labourer
Emily marries William Dwyer on 31 May 1904 father Frederick waterside labourer
All of above at Southwark St Mary
Julia marries Charles William Wright on7 April 1912 at Bermonsey St Mary, father Frederick labourer
There seems to be no records anywhere about thge daughter Adelaide - I am wondering if she was never a Liffen, but Adelaides from a previois marriage/relationship. I cant find a birth or chr for her under Liffen, or a marriage
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A couple of deaths -
Both Bermondsey - so they stayed in that area
March 1938, Bermondsey ref 1d 81
Frederick Liffen age 77
June 1951, Bermondsey ref 5c 117
Frederick Liffen age 56
No sign at the mo of what happened to either Adelaide - would be in teresting to see if she was still around and registered Frederick (senior) 's death.
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Frederick senior appears to be the son of a John and Eliza and bc.1860 Bermondsey.
1871 - family transcribed as Leffen - ref. RG10 - 632 - 21 - 39
1861 - family transcribed as Leffin - ref. RG9 - 323 - 80 - 35
John stated to be bc.1821 London
Eliza bc.1827 Ramsgate
Annette
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Thats interesting - so the James I was incorrectly following at the beginning was a brother of Frederick, I did wonder if that might be the case. (James aged 15 and a leather worker on 1871)
Shame Frederick and co are AWOL on 1881. I am still of the opinion that he probably never married Adelaide. And she is very elusive too! Hence my thoughts that fred juniors birth cert might help, in that it might produce a maiden name for her.
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1851 Census - transcribed as Leffers - ref. HO107 - 1559 - 316 - 16
Eliza Leffen 25 Mariners wife b. Ramsgate, Kent
John Leffen 3 b. Borough, Surrey
Emily Leffen 1 b. St. Johns, Surrey
John Leffen married Eliza Miller in Jun.qtr.1847 Thanet, Kent.
Annette
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Per familysearch John Leffen, son of John, married Eliza Miller, dau. of Richard, 28/6/1847 Ramsgate, Kent.
So John was a mariner - no doubt how he met and married in Ramsgate.
Annette
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Heres the full 1871 - I find it easier when all the info is on the thread
Not only is Eliza bn Ramsgate,but eldest child too
Eliza 44 widow Charwoman bn Ramsgate kent
George 17 labourer bn Ramsgate
James 15 leather labourer bn St John
Mary Ann13 bn St John
Frederick 11 bn Bermondsey
Eliza 9 bn Bermondsey
Isabella 7 bn Berm.
Thomas 4 bn Berm.
And 1861
John 40 mariner bn City of London
Eliza 34 bn Ramsgate
John 16 bn Borough
Emily 11 bn Horsleydown
George 8 bn Horsleydown
James 6 bn Hors.
Mary Ann 3 bn Berm.
Frederick 1 bn Berm.
I see red writing as I post - brilliant, you have taken it back further.
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The surname is not easy, is it?
Found John's baptism (a wee bit older than he said):
John Liffen b.28/8/1817, bp.18/3/1818 Horsleydown St. John, Southwark, son of John and Hannah of Potters Fields. John senior is a Bricklayer.
Annette
Note - John Leffen bc.1821 d. Dec.qtr.1866 Bermondsey.
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I wondered about that christening for him, but would hardly call Horsleydown "city of London", that coupled with the date discrepancy made me hesitate.
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Can't see any other children born to John and Hannah - may have died young and John junior might not have known exactly where he was born.
Certainly, from marriage certificate his father was named John - suspect it may show deceased and occupation not always given in that instance.
Annette
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Starting from scratch with the name Frederick, here is his birth (indexed Leffen)
Oct/Nov/Dec 1894
St Savioirs Southwark
Ref 1d 21
And Annette has found his christening confirming parents as Frederick and Adelaide.
They have been found in 1901, here is the full transcription:
RG 13 388 167 60
7 Edward House, Peter Road, Bermonsey
Frederick 42 Dock labourer
Adelaide 42
Mary 5
Julia 3
Frederick 2 all bn Bermonsey
As Annette said, ages are not that accurate!
Back 10 years to 1891 (again has been found,but here is full transcription):
RG12 380 14 24
21 St Johns Place Bermonsey
Fred 25 gen labourer
Adelaide 25
Adelaide 10
Emily 6
Eliza 5
Mary 7 mths
Again, ages not good compared with 1901!
Then, as everyone else found, the trail goes cold.
Not sure if this is the same couple with son - check the 1911 census surname LUFFIN
Mmm... I not seeing a marriage either ???
Frederick & Adelaide LIFFEN living at 179 Barnham Street on the Electoral Register date:-
1918/22/25/27/28/29/30/31
1922 living with them George Liffen
1925 gives Frederick Jnr. living at number 178 (perhaps the 8 should have been a 9 as father noted as Frederick Snr.)
1934/35/36 only Frederick LIFFEN's name listed as living at 179 Barnham Street
1910/11/13 same address as above only Frederick LIFFEN named
1912 house number 172 Barnham Street Dwellings
A couple of deaths -
Both Bermondsey - so they stayed in that area
March 1938, Bermondsey ref 1d 81
Frederick Liffen age 77
June 1951, Bermondsey ref 5c 117
Frederick Liffen age 56
I wonder if this might be Frederick Snr & Jnr on Electoral Register
You mention on you post that Frederick (b1894) married Mary
perhaps this is them on Electoral Register - Did they have a son?
1939 Southwark
9 New Kent Road SE 17
Frederick LIFFEN
Mary LIFFEN (female)
F A LIFFEN (male)
1951 Southwark
2 Townsend Street SE 17
Frederick LIFFEN
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Firstly I would like to thank you lizdb, Annette7 and Ladyhawk for your kind help, it is very much appreciated. I work away from home so I can't always reply as promptly as I would like to and I wouldn't want you to think that I haven't bothered to reply.
I have ordered a Birth Certificate for my GF Frederick Liffen (b 1894) and agree that the Mothers' surname should be very helpful. Will of course post on here as soon as it arrives.
A slight correction to their address in the 1901 Census, they lived at 7, Edward House, Potier Place (later renamed Rephiderm St in 1905). I understand that GF Fredericks brother George lived in this road too.
I too agree that the age details on various Census forms are making the research more difficult and i wonder why the details my relatives gave varied so much?
Frederick and Adelaide did indeed live at 76 Barnham St Dwellings and Frederick my GF, Mary(Law his wife) and my dad Harry, aunt Mary, uncle Fred and i think Uncle George lived at 179. They later lived at 20 Avondale Sq, Old Kent Rd;they lived there whilst my dad was away in the 2nd WW and he returned there in 1946. In 1952 GM Mary, Harry (my dad),Mary (aunt), and uncle George lived there until 1956(at least). My uncle Fred, the oldest child had left the residence previously (in fact living at 29 Warren Buildings Brandon St in 1945 and from 1948-1951 at 2 Townsend St Old Kent Rd).
Something I've learnt is that the family moved from lodging to lodging but in a very small radius of a mile or 2-likewise my Mothers side were similar-maybe getting evicted or hopefully "improving" their accommodation.
Lizdb-The death in June 1951 is certainly my GF and assume that the other Frederick you mention who died in 1938 is his father, but sadly no one in the family knows.
Your details of 1939, 9 New Kent Rd are proving a little confusing for me (So Many Fredericks !) I believe Uncle Freds first wife was Irene so I can only guess that its my uncle fred, GM Mary or maybe aunt Mary? Maybe not a good idea for me to guess?
I had an Uncle Fred (1917-2005app) who had a son Fred too.
And Uncle did indeed live at 2 Townsend St from 1948-1951. I believe Cousin Fred is alive but we are not in touch .
Thank you to everyonr for your time.
Kind regards
Henry
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Hi Henry and gang
Some school admission details for the children:
Webb St School, Southwark
1891 (19 Oct): Emily LIFFIN, dau of Fredk of 10 Goulston Bldgs. DOB 9/1/85.
1891 (19 Oct): Eliza LIFFIN, dau of Fredk of 10 Goulston Bldgs. DOB 9/10/86. Left 5/12/91.
Laxon St School, Southwark
1892 (5 Dec): Emily LIFFEN, dau of Fredk of 2 Bangor Court. DOB 15/2/85. Previously attended Webb St School. Left 20/5/93.
Snowsfields School, Southwark
1900 (10 Oct): Fred LIFFEN, son of Fredk of 108 High Street. DOB 1/2/95. Previously attended Magdalen St School.
1901 (25 Feb): George LIFFEN, son of Fredk of 7 Edward House, Trinity Buildings, DOB 8/3/97.
The birthdates are a bit all over the place!
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Lizdb-just a very quick note but Adelaide was the illegitimate daughter of Adelaide, NOT a Liffen, she bore her when she was 15. I've no idea of her father, or what happened to her.
Kind regards
Henry
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Don't wish to disrespect your family but Frederick and Adelaide are not too hot on ages from 1891 census onwards.
What use had they for ages??
In all probability they didn't keep track of them. Once every ten years a man came round and asked them their names and ages. He did his best to construe and transliterate their names. As for their ages, I imagine that their answers were absolutely consistent. Namely: "Don't know". The ennumerator therefore took a long, hard look at them (or, more likely, a very cursory, short glance at them) and entered his best guess in his form before moving on to teh next household.
There was a lot of it about in them days ...
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Hello everybody who has been helping me. The Birth Certificate has arrived and these are the details from it:
Born 30th June 1894 at 107 Napier Street.
Name, Frederick William, a Boy.
Father George Robert Liffen
Mother Jane Liffen formerly Williams.
Fathers occupation was a Carpenter
the mark of Jane liffen, Mother of 107 Napier street.
Registered 6th August 1894 in Deptford Central, Greenwich.
I hope this helps; I will get on the Tree again and investigate, although I don't ever remember Deptford being mentioned a home?
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An addition to my last post-there was also a Napier Street near Long Lane in Bermondsey which is the area where they all seemed to live but the registration district was Deptford (and there was a Napier St there too).
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Hi again Henry
The birth certificate you've got (of Frederick William Liffen, son of George Robert and Jane) is that of a different Frederick from the one who has been followed (just Frederick, no middle name, son of Frederick and Adelaide). Obviously it's important to identify which is your Frederick. I don't think you've told us who your Frederick married? Lizdb asked about this earlier in the thread.
Anyway the Frederick William Liffen whose birth certificate you have (son of George Robert) married Alice Beatrice Oates in 1919. Would that be your man? He may have died in 1959 in Dartford.
Going on the basis of what you've previously told us in the thread (including that your Frederick died in 1951) it would seem likely that you've unfortunately ordered the wrong birth certificate. Lizdb gave index details at reply #10 for a likely birth registration for Frederick, and there's a Bermondsey death in 1951 for a Frederick Liffen with no middle name.
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Thank you AVm228 for your reply. I also came to the same conclusion that I had ordered the wrong one.
I have had more information come from a family member very recently which will help.
My GF Frederick married Mary Law April -June 1917 St Olave district.. We know that she died in 1963 and was born around 1895. My Aunt Mary who has just died told me that her mother was Mary Law. I've only just remembered this when my memory was jogged.
My GF Frederick certainly died in 1951 as Aunt Mary readily remembered it was in the year of the 1951 Great Exhibition.
I remember as a child that My GM Mary Liffen lived in Avondale House Avondale Sq London which is confirmed by my cousin and on the Electoral Roll between 1948-1957.My Father Harry appears on the Roll there too.
Mary Liffen nee Law and Frederick appear on the 1936 Electoral roll at 169 Tooley St SE1. I again know this to be true as I showed my Aunt Mary the property on Google Street view.
Regarding Alice Beatrice Oates, I came across her whilst working on the tree and I asked my recently deceased Aunt Mary who she was but she had no idea. She had a very strong memory right until her passing so I've no idea who she was yet only lived a mile or so from them all!
Thank you for your help and any further assistance would be very much appreciated.
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I'm not surprised Aunt Mary didn't know of Alice Beatrice Oates, because Alice Beatrice Oates married Frederick William Liffen (whose birth certificate you have) and not your Frederick.
In order to make progress you'll need to order the correct birth certificate for your Frederick, using the index details provided by lizdb at reply #10. Let us know when it arrives :)
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Hello everybody.
The Birth Certificate for my GF has arrived and would be grateful of some further help.
BIRTH 29th October 1894
NAME Frederick , a boy
FATHER Frederick Liffen
MOTHER Adelaide Liffen formerly Andrews. (Mother made a mark on cert)
ADDRESS 123 Mowbray Buildings Southwark.
Thank you all.
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https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NJSX-R3F
Could this be related?
A match to this Thomas appears in the 1881 census, "single"
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XQQR-D54
This would explain no later marriage to Frederick.
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Following on from jorose's post, a possible baptism for the daughter Adelaide:
Baptism, St John the Evangelist, Walworth
5 June 1881
Adelaide Elizabeth HILLYARD, daughter of Thomas (pipe maker) and Adelaide, of Oak Cottage.
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Thank you both for your prompt replies.
Am I correct in thinking that Adelaide was originally married to Thomas Hileard and they had a daughter Adelaide when she was only 15 yoa?
Presumably when Adelaide met Frederick ;Thomas was no longer around? And they never married?
Thanks for your help it's much appreciated.
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As divorce was not really obtainable for the average person, it wasn't unusual for couples to simply go their separate ways and later live with common-law spouses instead of officially remarrying. Probably easier to explain her away as illegitimate than to admit she wasn't married to Frederick.
Although it's not clear exactly what happened or what age Adelaide was at the time (if the 1891 census is right, she was close to 16 at Adelaide Jr's birth), it does look as if we might have:
May 1880: Thomas Hilleard/Hileard, son of Richard, m. Adelaide Andrews (a copy of this record should give Adelaide's age, although she may well have lied about it).
April 1881 (census): Thomas Hilleard, pipe maker, son of Richard, in Bermondsey (single)
June 1881: Thomas Hillyard, pipe maker, and wife Adelaide, baptised a daughter, Adelaide Elizabeth (Thomas might not have been involved, of course, Adelaide could have given the details).
Although Adelaide Elizabeth could have born earlier than June - I cannot see a birth registration for her.
Thomas might be the same pipe maker who later turns up in Bermondsey as living with a Julia with a number of kids - this family also use multiple spellings, Hilleard/Hileard/Hilliard. Funnily enough, I can't seem to spot a marriage for this pair either.
Cannot find daughter Adelaide in 1901, either. Can she be spotted on the school records under some variation of Hilleard or Andrews, perhaps? It would be good to find some confirmation that the child Adelaide Hil*rd is indeed the same as the Adelaide who appears in 1891 with Frederick Liffen's family. At the moment I'm classing it as "likely hunch". :)
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Hello Henry,
Hope you are still subscribed to this message board.
There is a birth registration for an Adeline ANDREWS , Dec Qtr, 1858, Bermondsey. I believe this to be same person as Adelaide ANDREWS who married Thomas HILLEARD, Jun Qtr 1880, St Saviour. Ages given in 1891 census transcription are clearly wrong. Original needs to be checked.
There is a marriage between Frederick LEFFEN and Adeline ANDREWS registered Jun Qtr 1927, Southwark. Could it be that they at last decided to make legal?
Frederick's brother James LEFFEN married Lucy STYLES, (Dec Qtr, 1875, Bermondsey). James and Lucy are my great grandparents.
Regards,
John :)
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Hello John.
Yes I am still a member on Rootschat. Thank you very much for contacting me. It seems that both our GrandFathers were brothers?
Where do you live John and where were you born?
regards
HL
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Hi Henry,
I live in Catford, but first 46 years lived in Bermondsey.
Have you made much progress since your last posting.
It was our Great Grandfathers who were brothers, making us third cousins.
Regards,
John
Hello John.
Yes I am still a member on Rootschat. Thank you very much for contacting me. It seems that both our GrandFathers were brothers?
Where do you live John and where were you born?
regards