RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: lindynz on Saturday 27 July 13 10:54 BST (UK)
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Hi, I have posted previously about this person on the Kent board, and not had much luck, so I'm hoping further information can be found about her in NZ. I believe Maria Frances Langley was born in Lewisham in 1848, but I am not certain who her parents were. Her death certificate (as "Frances Brunton") says her parents were "Langlie" and "Marchard" (no first names given), and I suspect they may have been Edward Langley and Mary Maria Marchant, who married in Whitechapel in 1847, but I haven't yet been able to prove this. She married John Brunton in Auckland in 1864 at the age of 16, and died in Wade in 1887, aged 39. Their marriage certificate gives no family details.
I would like to find out when she came to NZ, and who, if anybody, she arrived with. Her death certificate says she had been in NZ for 26 years, suggesting an arrival of around 1861. The closest I can find is a Langley family that arrived on the "Silver Eagle" in 1863, with a Maria M., Fanny H., Helen, two Emmas (?!), and an Edward, but no Maria Frances. I can't be certain if Maria M Langley is Mary Maria Marchant, but she might be the Mary Maria Langley who died in Auckland in 1870 at the age of 45. This Mary had been widowed for 17 years, so the Edward on the ship may have been a son, rather than her husband.
So - I'm looking for evidence that this is Maria Frances Langley's family, and if so was she with them when they arrived? Can anyone find a separate shipping record for her, or is it possible that one of the girls listed for the 1863 arrival could somehow be her (the two Emmas listed could be a mistake)? Are there any records of her in NZ prior to her marriage in 1864, or anything else that might indicate who her family were?
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Hi
Have you read the updates to your post on the Kent board ? :)
~ Lu
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I would like to find out when she came to NZ, and who, if anybody, she arrived with. Her death certificate says she had been in NZ for 26 years, suggesting an arrival of around 1861. The closest I can find is a Langley family that arrived on the "Silver Eagle" in 1863, with a Maria M., Fanny H., Helen, two Emmas (?!), and an Edward, but no Maria Frances.
Hi
Will take another look at passenger lists ... but it seems possible she may be the person listed as "Fanny H" ??
"Fanny" is a diminutive of the girl's name, Frances.
~ Lu
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Hello again
The passenger list for the "Silver Eagle" was published in the following newspaper.
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz
"Daily Southern Cross" - 31 January 1863 - page 13
Yes, in the LANGLEY listing, it does show the name "Emma" twice ... BUT it may well be a typographical error ... "Emma" written on one line ... and again on the following line ???
Likewise the listing of "Fanny H." ... again a "typo" ... the (upper case) letters H and M (in both handwritten and typeset form) are very often mistaken.
~ Lu
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Marriage -- is this her brother ???
"Auckland Star" - 15 January 1876 - page 2
LANGLEY-ROUT ..... Edward LANGLEY, only s/o Mr E. LANGLEY, Woolwich, Kent.
[Almost sounds as if the father was still living in 1876 ?? ]
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These baptisms from England :
Greenwich - Woolwich - St Mary Magdalene
Baptism : 25 September 1853
Born : 18 June 1853
Edward LANGLEY
s/o Edward and Maria LANGLEY
of Charlotte Street, New Charlton - occupation of Father : Corn Handler
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Southwark - Peckham St Jude
Baptism: 1852
Born: 21 December 1851
Emma Caroline LANGLEY
Parents: Edward and Maria LANGLEY
of Charlotte Street, St. Thomas - Occupation of Father: Corn Dealer
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Can't see a baptism for Maria Frances LANGLEY.
But as you have already found probable birth of same, perhaps you need to purchase the birth cert ?
Incidentally, I see you have Maria Frances LANGLEY - birth registered 1848 at Lewisham ... and from her daughter's (NZ) birth cert., mention that Frances was born at Woolwich.
The Registration area of Lewisham was large, spanning the districts of Greater London, Kent and London.
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NZ Marriage
Emma Caroline LANGLEY - Robert Shaw FORGIE -- 1876
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NZ Death
1922 - FORGIE - Emma Caroline - 70 years [bc 1852 ]
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[Looking at births registered to Emma Caroline and Robert S. FORGIE - it appears their first-born child (1877) was named "Mary Maria" .]
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Hi again
Have you viewed the Cemetery Records for Symonds Street and St. Stephen's (Auckland) ?
http://www.aucklandcity.govt.nz/
[Extract] -- The Mrs LANGLEY (bur. 23 March 1870 - aged 46 years) is said to have arrived per "Silver Eagle" 1863 with a son and three daughters. She is buried with her daughter Mrs ARMOUR.
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NZ Marriage
Eleanor LANGLEY - George Donald Grieve ARMOUR -- 1880
[Eleanor LANGLEY appears in the 1851 UK census -- refer to posting on your KENT board thread.
Eleanor would appear to be the "Helen" LANGLEY on the "Silver Eagle" passenger list. ]
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"New Zealand Herald"
- 22 March 1870 - page 4 - Another Awfully Sudden Death
- 23 March 1870 ... Inquest (death of Mary Maria LANGLEY)
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Hi lindynz
* Have you found this LANGLEY family on the UK 1861 census return ??
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http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,479268.0.html
- linking over so people can see what has been found
This would also fit with:
"Female" Langley b. Mar 1850 quarter Lewisham (Eleanor)
"Female" Langley b. Dec 1851 quarter Lewisham (Emma)
Edward Langley b. Sep 1853 quarter Lewisham (son)
Edward Langley d. Jun 1854 quarter Lewisham (the father?)
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0vhw/
- says that Mary Maria's husband was the late Edward Langley of "Ro'mpton Surrey" - copied to English papers. (interesting given the reference to Roehampton in the other thread)
Does the 1864 marriage give any hints e.g. who were the witnesses?
The real mystery is this:
From the English census, Mary was 28 in 1851, so in her early 30s when her husband died leaving her with four kids, the youngest just a baby, and then nearly ten years later she emigrates - why? Were there relatives there? It just seems a huge risk for a widow to take on her own with four kids, none of whom were old enough at the time to be much help in supporting the family.
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The real mystery is this:
From the English census, Mary was 28 in 1851, so in her early 30s when her husband died leaving her with four kids, the youngest just a baby, and then nearly ten years later she emigrates - why? Were there relatives there? It just seems a huge risk for a widow to take on her own with four kids, none of whom were old enough at the time to be much help in supporting the family.
I agree "jorose" that there is an element of mystery surrounding Mrs LANGLEY in particular. ;D
Unfortunately some of our NZ resources (websites), are running at a snail's pace this morning, so not able to follow up on a few things I'd wish to check. But I suspect that because there is no listing of the LANGLEY passengers per "Silver Eagle" (1863) amongst the NZ Immigration Passenger Lists (@ familysearch), it may be that this particular family paid their own passage to NZ ... or it was paid for them (by other than a New Zealand provincial government immigration scheme). ???
~ Lu
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... just adding a more direct link for Symonds Street / St. Stephen's Cemeteries info.
http://www.aucklandcity.govt.nz/dbtw-wpd/symondsst/sscem.html
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1861 Middlesex - Bethnal Green St. Matthew - Hackney Road
LANGLEY - Ellen - 10 - Scholar - boarder - b. Kent - Woolwich
LANGLEY - Emma C. - 9 - * ditto *
LANGLEY - Edward - 7 - * ditto *
... at 4 William Street (educational institution ? )
Head of household is - Rachael W. WORTMAN (WORKMAN ?) - 62 - Governess
with her sisters Elizabeth C. (49) and Sarah G. (45) who are listed as teachers.
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Thank you for all that, Lucy and jorose. It's certainly sounding like this NZ Mary Maria Langley is Mary Maria Marchant from Kent, and the mother of (Maria) Frances. The little details seem to be adding up - like Frances naming two of her children Edward and Eleanor (Brunton), and the 1851 census showing Edward and Maria had a daughter Frances, but it would be great if a birth or christening record would show up naming them as Maria Frances' parents - fingers crossed I don't need to fork out for another certificate!
Funny that I've never previously found any suggestion before that Frances had Langley family in NZ - usually that sort of information is readily passed down through the generations, though with all the variations in names it would be understandable that researchers haven't uncovered this before! I've never heard of her referred to as "Fanny", but the "Marchard" reference on her death cert is the best evidence that Mary Maria is indeed her mother. There doesn't seem to be any mention of Fanny being around her mother after they arrived in NZ - perhaps they weren't very close?
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A note: one of the Brunton kids (Ann) appears to have her registration indexed twice, once with mother Maria Frances, once with mother as "Fanny"
Papers past says that there was a grandchild living with Mary Maria - was this one of the Bruntons?
It may have been that John Brunton didn't get along with the rest of the family, or that the family just drifted apart after Mary Maria died (while Maria Frances' children were still very young).
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Mmmm ... perhaps this needs further investigation ??
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz
"Daily Southern Cross" (Auck.) - 10 June 1867
CROWN GRANTS in favour of the following persons are now ready for delivery at the office of the Registrar of Deeds, Auckland ... [long list of names follows] ....
Mary Maria LANGLEY and John Blain SMITH ... [these names appear to be bracketed together - as if grant has been made jointly ?]
[My searching to date, has not flushed out a "John Blain SMITH" ... ]
~ Lu
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Hi Just wondered if you'd ever come across a Annie Maria Langley born in India but with connections to Kent (interesting to see the Maria name) - I know she married a Charles Hinchcliffe a Sgt in the W Yorks Rgt and that she was school teacher - I think her and Charles retired to Nottinghamshire - they had a son in 1899 called Herbert who I am particularly interested in and who possibly died in Wrexham - would be very pleased to hear from anyone who might be able to tell me more,
Regards
KB
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Can't help with Maria, but
Maria married Robert Brunton, born 1838 in Cranston, Midlothian, Scotland
Robert was the son of Robert Brunton, born 13 Feb 1796 in Lanark, Lanarkshire, Scotland
Grandson of Robert Albert Brunton, born 14 Aug 1748 in Dalkeith, Midlothian, Scotland
Great grandson of William Brunton, born 16 Jul 1706 in Dalkeith, Midlothian, Scotland
Great Great Grandson of Robert Brunton, born 26 Dec 1676 in Dalkeith, Midlothian, Scotland
POSSIBLE LINE BEFORE THIS
Great Great Great Grandson of Robert Brunton, born 23 Oct 1649 in Dalkeith, Midlothian, Scotland
Great Great Great Great Grandson of Robert Brunton,born 23 Oct 1621 in Dalkeith, Midlothian, Scotland
Great Great Great Great Great Grandson of William Brunton who married Helen Oystene (waaaaay before I was born!)
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Hi 1716 and Saxonx. Sorry, I don't know anything about Annie Maria Langley - most of my knowledge of the Langleys has come from Rootschat - but perhaps if Saxon could give some details of Annie's Kent connections, maybe we could find a relationship there?
1716, nice to see another Brunton researcher! A small correction to your information, though - Maria Frances Langley was married to John, not Robert, Brunton (born in 1838 in Cousland, Cranston parish). Apart from that your information tallies with mine. I haven't managed to trace the Bruntons further back than the 1676 Robert (who married Dorothea Gray in 1702), so it would be interesting to see if your possible line could be confirmed.
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I did actually write a long reply but the server failed to save it.
Basically my information initially came from J Dickenson Brunton,
Chart of part of the Brunton family
compiled by John Dickenson Brunton (1821 – 1908)
with additions by Arthur D. Brunton (1847 - )
He mentions
Robert
Born 10 Feb 1796
Lanark
Baptised 23 Mar 1796
Married Ann Touch
12 Mar 1825
had 3 children
Annie Married George Keeling
Robert
and Kate
John Dickenson Brunton fails to mention Annie Maria Langley, even though her husband would have been his first cousin. (John Dickenson Brunton was the son of William Brunton, born 26 May 1777)
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Robert Brontone 1649 may have been twice married, so its hard to say if he is the correct line to Robert 1676, who married Dorothea Gray
First marriage Jean Wast on 03 May 1669, with one child Jannat born 28 Jan 1670
Second Marriage Margaret Dobie on 28 Aug 1675
Children
Andrew B. 1678
Patrick B. 12 Sep 1680
Mathew B. 1684
Isobell B. 1686
Even then you can see no Robert from 1676.
For all I know there were two Robert Bruntons living in the town, all speculative anyways and I lost the will when I doubted the validity of my families connections to J Dickenson Brunton*
*a 1922 book "Interviews with Mining Engineers" to be exact, interviewing David William Brunton, and I quote
"One of my cousins, recently deceased, J. Dickinson Brunton, was an inventor of stone-dressing machinery and of the tunneling machine"
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Robert 1676 gravestone is still standing in Dalkieth, see below
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photo grave