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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Denbighshire => Topic started by: pixie101 on Thursday 25 July 13 12:36 BST (UK)
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Hi I have been trying to identity a birth record for my Grandfather for the past two years,,I have hit a brick wall,, is there anyone who could help please.
His name is William Owen Williams I have him on the 1911 census living with wife and child in Llanfair Dyffryn Clwyd Denbighshire he states his place of birth as Henllan. I also have his marriage cert showing his age as 34 years in 1910 his Father John Williams a farmer deceased, place of birth was shown as Henllan. I have his burial report and funeral card showing he died in Tanyfron at aged 80 years in 1955, his Brother Hugh was at the funeral with his wife and daughter Nellie they lived in Colwyn Bay. Not sure if Hugh was older or younger than him.
I have a William Owen Williams on the 1881 census living with a Peter Williams place of birth shown as Gwytherin this is a long way from Henllan. I have found many William Owens on Census but none with a Hugh and not with a Father named John or being born in Henllan. I have purchased three birth certs from GRO none have a Father named John. ,,,help please Barb ???
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Hi Barb,
Was one of the birth certs you got for William Owen Williams Sept 1874 Llanrwst? If not, I may have found something
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There are these two baptisms on FindMyPast. You will have to buy credits to see them.
WILLIAMS William Owen/ 1875 Gwytherin Denbighshire
WILLIAMS William Owen /1877 Rhosllanerchrugog Denbighshire
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Parish register page 75 entry no. 598
Baptism
Gwytherin Denbighshire
2 May 1873
William Owen Williams
parents John & Ellen
address Tydyn Cafyd
father's occ Farmer
Maybe?
Suz
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This looks like the William Owen Williams from the baptism
1881
Brynpistyll
Llannefydd
Denbigh
Peter Williams Head M 49farmer of 4 acres 1 ag lab
Jemimah wife 49 Llannefydd Denbigh
Jane daughter 12 LLannefydd
David son 10 Llannefydd
WILLIAM OWEN WILLIAMS Boarder 6 Gwytherin Denbigh
RG11 5533 46 2
Suz
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and this looks like his parents before William Owen was born
1871
Tyddyn Cafydd
Gwytherin
John Williams Head M 37 Farmer of 30 acres
Ellen wife Llangeniew Denbigh
Elias son 7
Thomas J son 4
Elizabeth daughter 1
John & children b Gwytherin
RG10 5677 108 9
Suz
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Alright, I'm adding to my earlier post as everyone's being far more helpful than I was :D
Going purely on censuses, I found a Hugh (1872) and William (1874) living with their parents John and Ellen/Elinor on the 1881 census in Llangwm. The corresponding later censuses suggest that John, a farmer of 10 acres and sheep dealer, died sometime between 1885 and 1891.
The older children all seem to have been registered in Llanrwst, hence my earlier suggestion that William Owen was registered there in Sept 1874
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Hi to everyone, many thanks for the reply's to my call for help. I have looked at all the suggestion and advice given and I am in confusion. the William Owen in the 1881 census living with Peter, his birth place is given as 1875 Gwytherin which is a long way from Henllan. I have looked at the baptismal record sometime ago and have tried to get a birth cert however there are no births registered with the GRO for that person. The William Owen in 1874 Llanwrst I did get the birth cert and the Father is not John.
My points of reference for him are,, he states he was born in Henllan Denbighshire on his marriage cert and again in the 1911 census. His father is named as John a farmer on the marriage cert. He claims he was 34 yrs in 1910 making the birth year as 1877 and he was reported as 80 in 1955 on his death birth year would have been 1875
Were to from here ????? :-X
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There's a Baptism for a Hugh Williams on 17 March 1880 at Llansannan, parents John and Ellen.
Abode: Water St, John a labourer.
Deirdre
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Sorry, found Hugh in 1881 and father John was also born in Llansannan, not Henllan. Ellen from Caernarvonshire, brother William born 1876 in Brymbo, so guess not the right family :-[
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I don't suppose William was a grocer was he?
Edited to add: sorry, been wondering if he perhaps didn't know his father, so it's the father's name that's wrong on the marriage cert.
Have found a William Williams born 1876 in Henllan, as a gamekeeper living in Cefn, Flint in 1901 and in 1891 in Denbigh as an apprentice grocer. Worth a look? :-\
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I have a William Owen Williams on the 1881 census living with a Peter Williams place of birth shown as Gwytherin this is a long way from Henllan.
Wikpedia
" Henllan"
"St Sadwrns church forms part of the Benefice of Henllan, which includes the parishes of Henllan, Bylchau & Gwytherin"
So I wonder if p.o.b. was given as any of the three on census??
1881 shows
Cornwall Ucha?
Llanfair Talhaiarn
Denbighshire
Robert Evans Head M 50 Farmer of 76 acres Gwytherin Denbigh
Ann wife 45 Llanfair
HUGH WILLIAMS nephew 8 Gwytherin
RG11 5530 74 6
Wonder if this could be brother Hugh?? If father had died maybe children were spread about the family???
Only me guessing - but do you think it might be worth further investigation?
Suz
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Hi many thanks for the help, much appreciated, I guess it,s just a matter of keep looking and asking and someone may have something in there own tree that could throw some light on my grandfather William Owen or his Brother Hugh Williams of Colwyn Bay.
Cheers Barb :)
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Thanks Deidre will have a look at that one ,,,and yes I have thought about the fathers name and wondered if it could have been made up or perhaps if John was a nick or common name used instead of real name.
Cheers Barb :)
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Hi pixie101 :)
Welcome to Rootschat!
Some thoughts on your research.
1) Have you located Hugh Williams on 1911 census?
2) I'm wondering if he could possibly also be named Hugh Owen Williams, because there are two deaths in Conway District in 1957 for that name, one age 79 and one age 73. There is a birth in 1876 for a Hugh Owen Williams at Ruthin registry.
3) Have you tried searching for WWI service records for the brothers? Age wise a bit of a stretch but you never know!
4) Was the marriage in 1910 a Civil Marriage or Church. What month did it take place and who were the witnesses? Also did he remarry after his wife's passing? A second marriage certificate could be very helpful as a secondary source for father's name.
5) What month did William Owen Williams die in 1955. Have you checked for a probate?
6) You said in another post that you had a funeral card - where was your grandfather buried?
7) If the brothers were traction engine operators perhaps check the British Newspapers and trade directories for more info.
Unfortunately I don't currently have access to the usual subscription sites, but hopefully someone who does can help you further.
Heather
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Thanks Heather,, some useful suggestion for me to follow up. I have looked for the cert for second marriage to Sarah Jane Carrington, they not of married of course and she used his name s time went by.
Cheers Barb :)
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Thanks Heather,, some useful suggestion for me to follow up. I have looked for the cert for second marriage to Sarah Jane Carrington, they not of married of course and she used his name s time went by.
Cheers Barb :)
??????
Northwales BMD has a civil marriage at Wrexham 1920 for a Sarah J Carrington with a William O Williams on the same page Wrexham Registry reference WM/087/28. Free bmd confirms they married each other. GRO ref Dec Q 1920 Wrexham vol 11b page 627
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Thanks Heather :) had just found it myself and have sent for a copy from the GRO,,this will confirm his Fathers name and place of birth.
Cheers Barb
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suzard I have sent you a pm