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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: monkers on Wednesday 24 July 13 18:54 BST (UK)
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I am having trouble locating this baptism. He was born in September 1912 in Northwood Middlesex, but wasn't registered until 1913. His parents were not married but were called Alexander Harvey Lloyd and Lilian Kate Austin. Essentially, I am trying to find out more about Lilian as she disappeared not long after having Kenneth and was never seen of again!
Of course he may never have been christened, would this have been common for an illegitimate child?
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Per freebmd
Births March qtr 1889 Lilian Kate Austin Eastry 2a 965
Any baptism will tell you no more than you already know - (ie) parents names. It won't show any personal info about her
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However!!!
Marriages Jun 1910
Lilian Kate Austin to either George Edward Neighbour or Herbert George Warner Edmonton 3A 644
So perhaps not the same Lilian Kate
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Who registered the birth in 1913? Is anything shown on the cert re: reason for late reg?
Does it show her as Lilian Kate Austin or - Lilian Kate nee Austin
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Hi, thanks for the reply.
Well, it is a fascinating story, well to me anyway and gives some insight into the fostering process of the times.
Ken was born on the third of September 1912 at “Amanda”, Pinner Road, Ruislip, Northwood. His birth certificates states that his mother was Lilian Kate Austin and his father was Alexander Harvey Lloyd. His birth was registered on the 7th March 1913, some months later than it should have been registered. Lilian is registered Lloyd nee Austin, but they never married. The birth was registered by his father. His mother was long gone.
Ken was brought up by foster parents.
A census search of this address the year before, shows that the house is occupied by an Annie Berry and her family, plus some lodgers. It was interesting that there were a couple of small children listed as visitors with no parents - Ernest Winter, a four year old and Barbara Brown, a baby of under one month. There is also a young woman staying there with another newborn baby. She is listed as French and married, which with a name like Ruth Sutton, which at first seemed unlikely, but after making some checks, it seemed to be true.
This made me wonder if Annie was some kind of “back street” midwife. Perhaps hers was a place that unmarried mothers went to give birth, and then maybe left their children with Annie to foster.
As for the delay in registering Ken’s birth, there is a pattern here. Both the other small children had their births registered late too. Maybe there was some kind of loophole for unofficial fostering? The adoption process did not come into being until 1926. It does seem odd that all the children are registered late. Even in those days there was a fine if the birth was registered late.
One other point regarding the 1911 cencus is that Annie would have filled it in herself. Why would she have listed the two small children as visitors if they are foster children? I firmly believe that what she was doing was unofficial and she was keen to keep it that way.
I think she received payment direct from the families of the children. Certainly Ken's father Alexander paid for him to attend Whitgift school. Ken never met his father or mother and it must have been very odd receiving this money from his father somewhere in the background.
Anyway, after all that.... I was hoping that maybe he was christened after all. In some christenings I have found extra snippets of information on some sites, so I was just hoping it might provide more of a clue about Lilian.
my guess is that she would have been young in 1912, unmarried and living in the Middlesex area. There are a couple of possibles but I really need something more concrete to link her with Ken.
Sorry for the long story, I have got carried away! ;D
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However!!!
Marriages Jun 1910
Lilian Kate Austin to either George Edward Neighbour or Herbert George Warner Edmonton 3A 644
So perhaps not the same Lilian Kate
There is a death in 1976 for a 101 year old Lillian Kate Neighbour!
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Interesting - that would put her birthyear approx 1875 and make her 37 when Kenneth was born which gives us this birth
Births June qtr 1875
Lilian Kate Austin Frome 5c 508
There is only one Neighbour/Austin marriage which fits and that's the 1910. Would a fairly newly wed have a fling resulting in the birth of an illegitimate son ???
There are no Neighbour/Austin births on freebmd until 1934
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The free 1911 index has a Lilian Kate Neighbour aged 35 living in Hampstead matching a Somerset birthplace
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Lilian Kate & George Edward Neighbour addresses from Electoral registers
1920 - 53 Hazellville Rd Islington
1922 - 47 Palace Rd Haringey
1923 - ditto
1924 - ditto
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Thanks for your help!
I think she sounds a bit old to be having illegitimate children though, she would have been 38 in 1912. Alexander was born in 1888, so would have been 24 when Ken was born. My guess is that Lilian would have been around the same age, unless Alex had a penchant for older women!
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So the 1889 birth I found in Eastry fits better with Alexander.
In that case we can definitely rule out the Austin/Neighbour marriage in 1910
The hunt for Lilian continues I'm afraid
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There is this possibility
Births September qtr 1894
Lillian Katherine E Austin Holborn 1b 729
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What is strange in this story is the involvement of the father.
IF Lillian had just been a young girl having an illegitimate child with no support, that she then abandons,one wouldnt expect the father to be such a feature. Unusual for him to turn up months later and accept responsibility.
It seems he must have known about the baby all along, known of its birth, but not registered it at the time, been in touch enough to know the facts, and for some reason something prompted him to register it some months later - and thus admitting paternity in writing on the birth cert. And then taking financial responsibility for the child.
He was either just a very responsible person, or he had enough involvement in the early days of the baby's life to have fully accepted his position. But why, then didnt he register the birth earlier?
I wonder if another possible scenario was that Lillian was from a well to do family, sent away to have this baby and then maybe married off to someone else? No evidence - just another idea to throw in the pot!
What else do we know about Alexander Harvey Lloyd? Occupation, did he marry, death, did he leave a will, etc etc.
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There's a Lilian Kate Neighbour born 28 Apr 1875 who died in Windsor in 1976 aged 101 !!!
Ignore me, I've missed a page ,and didn't see Spidermonkey's reply of last night :-[
Has anyone considered that Austin may not have been Lilian's maiden name,perhaps she was already married when she had the baby.
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Wake up Carol!
We got that in reply #5!!
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Wake up Carol!
We got that in reply #5!!
When I first logged into this thread it landed me on page one,It was only after I'd posted that I found there were in fact 2 pages.
I thought I was awake LOL
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What else do we know about Alexander Harvey Lloyd? Occupation, did he marry, death, did he leave a will, etc etc.
On free index to 1911, it appears that he was born in 1885, in Liverpool. Was living in Lambeth, London. A tree on Ancestry suggests that he married Ellen Edith Wigley on 9th Dec 1926 - I wonder what his marital status was shown as?
A link to an earlier thread http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=489348.0
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Does this patent application belong to your A H Lloyd? http://patent.ipexl.com/GB/GB446089.html
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There is this possibility
Births September qtr 1894
Lillian Katherine E Austin Holborn 1b 729
She is in a household in Beckton, East Ham on the 1911 census. Can't see what happens to her afterwards yet.
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There is this possibility
Births September qtr 1894
Lillian Katherine E Austin Holborn 1b 729
She is in a household in Beckton, East Ham on the 1911 census. Can't see what happens to her afterwards yet.
oooooh, by 1930 she is married to George Daniel Eldridge and living in New South Wales. Married Jun qtr 1919 West Ham 4a 87
A bit about George and Lillian here http://members.iinet.net.au/~rgkje/eldridge/re11.html
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goodness, you have been busy!
I am thrilled with you replies and there are some real clues there.
A bit of info on Alexander...
He was a fascinating character. He was born in the Liverpool poor house, a place that must have been worse than hell in 1888. His parents were unmarried.
He was "rescued" from the poor house by a man called Edwin Carter, a preacher. Alex appears in the next two cencuses with him.
At some point, he moves to London. I think he has delusions of grandeur as he adopts the name Harvey. He wasn't christened Harvey and he uses this name for the rest of his life as a first name. He also rents an address in Rugivny Gardens, which is pretty exclusive. I think he was determined to shake off his awful start in life.
He marries Ellen Cochrane, nee Wigley later on in his 40's. She is quite a well to do widow of a music hall star, and she was an actress herself.
On his marriage cert, he gives his address as Empire House, picadilly. You don't get much more highbrow than that.... but this is an office building and not accommodation. I think he worked there, not lived there, hence the delusions thing.
Anyhow, he must have made some money, but he lost it again as he was declared bankrupt in the 1920s. He did continue to live in a rather nice house in Fulham, and ended his days in a rather nice house in Surrey.
As for my theories on his parenting skills....!
He had no parents himself and was brought up by a preacher. There is nothing to suggest he was a kindly man. Alex let him die on his own in the poor house in Liverpool, so maybe there was no love lost between them.
Alex comes to London in his 20's and gets Lily pregnant. He must have stuck around for that 9 months as he was on the scene 6 months after the birth.
I think he arranged for Lily to have the baby at Annie Berry's house, then Lily cleared off. Annie has other babies in the house with no mothers in the 1911 census.
There must have been some reason why the birth was registered so late. All the other children in the house also were registered late. Annie maybe wanted to stay off the radar. Perhaps a condition of her taking on children is that someone else must register the birth 6 months later. Why??
Alex stayed in the background until Ken was a young teen. He must have paid Annie and he paid for Ken to attend public school, so we also know Alex was making money.
This is where is gets sad
Ken had a hideous childhood with Annie, he hated her. One day he was sent home from Whitgift and he never knew why. He was literally on the street, Annie didn't take him back in. Why? Because Alex went bankrupt. One day he was funding Ken, the next day it stopped.
What is really sad is that he didn't live far away in his nice house with his wife and step daughter. He could have taken Ken in, but he didn't. I think his wife didn't know about Ken and Alex didn't want to tell her.
So that was it. Alex never had parents and didn't know how to be one, and Ken didn't have parents and he too struggled to parent his own children, which is also very sad.
I do find it very hard to accept that Alex could pay and in some way take responsibility for many years, when many men would have done a runner, yet then rather callously, left Ken to his fate out on the street.
I am thrilled with the patent, thanks for that! I am sure it must be him, no other Alexander Harvey Lloyds seem to exist around that time. A powder puff, how bizarre! Do you know if I can find out any more about the patent?
He must have made a will, but I can't find it. Are there any clues on how to look for it? He died in 1942 aged only 56.
Thanks again and thanks for reading my little story! I am desperate to find out more about these two.
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Alexander Harvey Lloyd Could he have been away at sea, army at th time of the birth? Sandra
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I still think it is strange.
If Alexander was a bit of an uncaring rotter, as you suggest, then you would expect him to walk away and deny that the child was his. If Lillian was out of the way for whatever reason, there was no one to challenge this.
But it seems he made a concious effort to track down the child and register him, thus declaring paternity and taking financial responsibility.
It does suggest he was around all the time - throughout the pregnancy and birth - but then why didnt he register the birth straight away?
Maybe he needed a birth cert for some reason and found there wasnt one? Putting his sons name down for the school maybe?
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Alexander may have known Annie Berry, the family story seems to think he might have done. His adoptive father, the preacher was originally from this area.
I think there was some reason why none of the babies in the Berry household were registered in the correct time frame. I would love to know why.
I don't think he needed to track Ken down, he was always around living nearby. Maybe he even made an effort to see Ken when he was a baby, who knows. Certainly Ken never met him when he was old enough to remember it.
He cared enough to send him to fancy school, but not enough to remove him from Annie's care who abused him. I suppose things were different in those days and being vile to children was acceptable.
He just turned off when he went bankrupt. I suppose he had other things to worry about. Poor Ken, he always expected his dad to turn up one day like a knight in shining armour, but he never did. He was aware when he was a child that his dad was paying for his education.
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Alexander Harvey Lloyd Could he have been away at sea, army at th time of the birth? Sandra
I don't think so. He is on the 1911 census as a salesman. Ken was born about 18 months after that and Alex registers the birth another 6 months later, and he's still a salesman on the cert.
That leaves a 2 year gap. I suppose he could have disappeared and then come back, but I think he probably just stayed working in the area.
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I had a family research project where a cousin of my friend was discovered as a foster child. Parents unmarried. The parents married when the child was 7 but the mother died a few months later. The child never lived with her famiy. The child went out to Canada as a Barnardoes child. The parents had not married earlier because the father was in India in military service an then landed up in the 1914/18 war. A tragic tale. The story came to light when the girl's half sister found miltary documentation listing her elder half sister who she never knew of and had died before the she found she had existed. So many stories out there Sandra
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Ken was born on the third of September 1912 at “Amanda”, Pinner Road, Ruislip, Northwood. His birth certificates states that his mother was Lilian Kate Austin and his father was Alexander Harvey Lloyd. His birth was registered on the 7th March 1913, some months later than it should have been registered. Lilian is registered Lloyd nee Austin, but they never married. The birth was registered by his father. His mother was long gone.
Does it show her as Lilian Kate Austin or - Lilian Kate nee Austin
That was answered way back in proceedings ;D ;D ;D