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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: OzKat on Monday 13 June 05 04:14 BST (UK)
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When my last surviving relative in Northern Ireland died in the 1990s, the following photo was over the fireplace of his cottage in Hillsborough, Co. Down. Since he had no brothers and sisters or wife or children I would dearly love to be able to identify this young man as it is highly likely an ancestor of mine.
Would anyone be able to identify the uniform and suggest a time period for me to start my enquiries. Is it military or from the constabulary? I would think it was pre 1900 but maybe I am wrong.
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Hi OzKat
As he has spurs - he's probably Cavalry - I can't tell about the uniform but maybe this site could give you a few ideas - as to regiments at least be a starting off point
http://www.sci.net.au/userpages/mgrogan/cork/regiment.htm
This is the RIC
http://www.psni.police.uk/index/pg_police_museum/pg_the_royal_irish_constabulary/pg_ric_ranks_and_uniforms.htm
Regards
Annie
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Thanks for the info. I looked at the RIC site and as a result I don't think he is RIC. I'll try to follow up a bit more on the companies mentioned on the other site and see if I can find some pictures - they seem few and far between on the net.
Ozkat
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ozkat,i think hes a royal marine,the spurs are probably an added touch,thats not a cavalry helmet or a cavalry uniform,mack
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I think that the photo may be of a member of a yeomanry unit. such cork helmets were often used around 1900 by both infantry and some cavalry units. The spurs are occasionally used by some officers in other units, such as the Engineers, but it is very unlikely that some one would have put them on if they were a marine. Do you have any other information? If you think he is northern Irland and he is Yeomanry, try
http://www.regiments.org/regiments/uk/lists/mvcxeng.htm
Good luck
Rod
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ozkat,you are going to have me and rod debating about this for a while[all in fun]rods right about the helmet being cavalry BUT so am i,and thats not the end of it,the infantry had the very same head gear,two regts that match both helmet and uniform are,6th inniskilling dragoons and the royal irish regt [18th foot]the spurs swing it over to rods theory,but it was common for soldiers to don spurs and other finery when having their picture taken,mack
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Thanks so far. I have lot's to look into.
And by the way, sorry for making the photo so large. How inconvenient.
As for providing more information, I don't have any. As far as I am aware, none of my Irish relatives strayed very far from Dromore apart from one family in Hillsborough and a couple who went as far as Belfast briefly. Oh and one who went to the United States for a while, went mad and was found unconscious in a New York street and was returned home to Magherabeg.
The photo was found in the house of my last surviving Irish relative in Hillsborough - Sammy Morrison. He was born in Magherabeg then went back to live in Hillsborough with his mother as an infant. I don't believe he ever left.
My mother convinced herself that the photo might be of her great grandfather (also Samuel Morrison) because he was this recently deceased's relative's father. The generations seem to get all mixed up in the Irish part of my family. But I think this photo is too recent. Her great grandfather died in 1910 aged 60. But Sammy who had the photo, kept it in pride of place over his fireplace. And as far as I know he had no other relatives but us. So who could it be?
My grandmother came to Australia as an orphan in her teens and really didn't know much about her family. And I didn't ask the right questions when she was alive.
So this is all I have to go on.
If anyone can at least suggest a time period that would be a great start. I see a mention of 1900 or so in one of the mails?
Regards,
Kat :-\
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The Date?
I am sure that someone will put me right, but here are a few thoughts. The type of mustache is typical of the 1890s. So is the style of the posed photo with a chair etc. If it was as early as 1870 then the quality of the photo would be more grainy and due to the need to stay still while the photo was taken, it is more likely that he would be sat down. If it was as late as World War 1, then I would expect khaki service dress etc.
So I would look at 1895-1905. What does everyone else think?
Rod
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Hiya Kat,
I think the guy in the pic could be a member of the RIC.
It looks to me as though he is wearing jodphurs.
The trousers are wider at the top and narrower at his feet.
He appears to have a whip or riding crop in hie hand.
He is not in full ceremonial dress.
The helmet may possibly be the Summer helmet.
There were four guys named Samuel Morrison in the RIC
Their registration numbers are shown below.
These will enable you, or someone on your behalf to view
their details on microfilm at PRONI, Balmoral Avenue, Belfast;
The National Archives, Pearse Street, Dublin;
Garda Museum and Archives, Record Tower, Dublin Castle
or the Royal Ulster Constabulary Museum, Belfast.
1293
24412
44006
45478
All the Best, Chris
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Thanks very much Chris.
I'll definitely be following up the reference.
Kath :D
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Hiya Kath,
Sorry, That guy is not wearing a whip or a riding
crop. It is too long. I am sure it is a polo stick..
I think that is the correct term. His helmet has a
fancy braid decoration. Does anyone know, did
the old polo hekmets have a spike ???
I googled for helmets and found all sorts including
a motot cycle helmet for a dog. Does a dog, who
has a licence already, need another licence to ride
a motorcycle ??? What is a dog doing on a motor
cycle in the first instance ??? Can you not be
prosecuted for taking your dog on your pillion ???
It would be dangerous enough in a sidecar :D
All the Best, Chris
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Hi Chris,
I don't think that's a polo mallett - they are about 50 inches long and much heavier, and there's no actual head on the one he's holding. I think it's some kind of riding whip. Also I don't think polo helmets ever (officially) had a spike like that on top - they were pith helmet shaped though, in the past.
Just to add that I know absolutely NOTHING about military garb but I'm sure that's not polo gear :)
Prue
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unless i'm very much mistaken ( has been known) thats a tropical version of the Home Service (blue cloth) helmet
i can't find a pic of the white version ( which was lighter) but this is the blue ( home) version, the 'braid' is the chin strap
(http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/post-171-1143197925.jpg)
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Hi Chris,
I don't think that's a polo mallett -
they are about 50 inches long and much heavier,
and there's no actual head on the one he's holding.
I think it's some kind of riding whip.
Also I don't think polo helmets ever (officially) had
a spike like that on top - they were pith helmet
shaped though, in the past.
Just to add that I know absolutely NOTHING about
military garb but I'm sure that's not polo gear :)
Prue
Hiya Prue,
harribobs thinks the helmet is tropical.
That stick is too long to be some kind
of riding whip. How about a billiards or
snooker cue. Billiards was a popular game
in the tropics. The game was originally
started in India.
Best Wishes, Chris
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Hello Chris :)
I agree it's a bit long for a standard riding whip...what's that on the top end? Is that the photo going funny or a little switch on the end of a solid cane? If it's a switch then it still could be a riding whip, just an old-fashioned one. I don't know what they used to use on those days (whenever "those days" were). It reminds me, actually, of a driving whip, or a buggy whip - longer in the shaft, with a switch on the end. Not sure if he would have thought that was fancy enough to pose with...?
It's very fine for a billiard (etc) cue - but not out of the question, for sure!
Prue
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Hi
Just thought I would add my twopennyworth.
1) He has a stripe on his left arm. (Lance Corporal)?
2) He has a white strip down side of tunic. (Dress tunic)?
3) Cane he is holding has what looks like an engraved knob. (Non-commisioned officers very often had these.?
First instinct would be army.
Regards Ericx
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I made the picture a bit smaller and cleaned it up a little - not sure if it helps to determine anything? There's a bit of loss of detail in the original, which I couldn't do anything about unfortunately :'(
Prue
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you're getting much too technical with your file names Prue ;D ;D
unknown-soldier-pointy-hat.jpg
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Hiya Prue,
I have looked at a driving whip site. I tend to agree with your theory. The guy is holding a whip.
www.usg-reitsport.de/start/index.php?lang=en&sysub=1.2.23.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0&CAT_ID=86 -
All the Best,
Chris
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you're getting much too technical with your file names Prue ;D ;D
unknown-soldier-pointy-hat.jpg
Yes, I know ;D ;D ;D
There comes a point where one can't be bothered giving clever coded and indexed file names anymore - and I've reached that point well and truly!!
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Hiya Prue,
I have looked at a driving whip site. I tend to agree with your theory. The guy is holding a whip.
www.usg-reitsport.de/start/index.php?lang=en&sysub=1.2.23.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0&CAT_ID=86
CHeers Chris - maybe it's just for show, and he was in a regiment/unit/whatever the technical name is that involved riding, but he didn't have a whip. The photographer thought he should have one as a prop for the picture, but didn't have a riding one, so gave him a driving one?? Who knows!
As far as being in a mounted regiment, he is wearing spurs and I would have thought that was significant...
Cheers
Prue
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I have looked at a driving whip site. I tend to agree with your theory. The guy is holding a whip.
www.usg-reitsport.de/start/index.php?lang=en&sysub=1.2.23.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0&CAT_ID=86 -
More and more intriguing. I had a look at the site that Chris suggested and to me it looks more like a schooling whip with the short kink at the end. I'd love to be able to work out what the crest on the thick end is though.
It's all mysterious as I don't have any record of anyone in that family having anything to do with the military. Not that I know very much about the family at all. He does bear a bit of a resemblance to my great grandfather Hugh Morrison but as far as I know he was a shoemaker. But there were two brothers - one of whom I thought may have died in infancy and another who had a nervous breakdown of sorts and ended up in an asylum.
Is it just vaguely possible that it is a complete dressup and the person had nothing to do with the military at all just wanted to look like he did - or didn't things like that happen? If you were going to be formally photographed wouldn't you have worn a dress uniform?
If he is a corporal in the army or in some cavalry unit, were there any based in Cty Down or drawing personnel from Cty Down as I am not aware of any of my lot stirring far from Dromore except for my grandmother and her uncle - the one I mentioned above who ended up in an asylum.
Kath
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Hate to put a dampener on this, but it does look like a "setup" photograph, there's no military insignia showing whatsoever (collar badges/ shoulder badges or helmet badge)
Any military man would be sure that his helmet faced front on for a photo, it's just not right to have it facing backwards.
Just my opinion though.
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the helmet is facing forward, any detail of the badge has been 'burnt out' in the photo
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It does not look like a set-up photo at all. For a start the uniform fits him properly. The soldier is wearing a blue patrol jacket which could be termed as 'undress' uniform, ie, for walking out, it would not have any embellishments, other than a badge of rank. He looks like a cavalryman, probably serving in India or some other sunny clime. He is carrying a cavalryman's whip.
Pity about the badge being burnt out on the photo.
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The Date?
So I would look at 1895-1905. What does everyone else think?
Agree with Rod on the dating of the photo; the stripe down his trouser appears to be either white or pale yellow. Could well be in the Dragoons, thus still a cavalryman, possibly Irish Dragoons!