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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Carmarthenshire => Topic started by: Fragorand on Tuesday 23 July 13 13:05 BST (UK)
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Hi. It's my first post on here so hope I'm doing things correctly.
I'm helping a friend I've met on-line to trace his great-grandparents. I was provided with their names which are Thomas Williams and Mary his wife. They had a daughter named Elizabeth born in 1867. Some of the difficulty relating to them is that they emigrated to Patagonia in 1874. I believe that passenger lists don't exist for before 1890. I was provided with the dates of Mary being born in 1839 and Thomas 1840. I think I've found them despite their ages being different on the 1871 Census with Thomas being a year older than Mary. I've also been given the name Tresalem which is on their tomb-stone in Patagonaia. I would like to find out their marriage. I haven't been successful as yet by looking on ancestry. I think I also find them in the 1861 Census where they are 20 and 21 years old with a child Elizabeth who doesn't appear 10 years later. I think they must have lost this child and name the child born in 1867 after the first. I don't have a definite maiden name for Mary although it could have been a Griffith (s). Any help or suggestions on how to find out about their marriage? Thanks.
PS
I was also told that Thomas Williams came from Denbigh in north Wales but my research shows him as coming from Llandybie in the s w part of Wales. I suppose it could be a mistake as my friend doesn't speak Welsh and there is a similarity in the names.
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Hi Fragorand and welcome to Rootschat.
Unfortunately the names you are dealing with are fairly common so it's important you don't begin by tracking down the wrong line.
Here's a list of Welsh settlers to Patagonia in 1865 to get you started: -
http://www.argbrit.org/Patagonia/mimosa.htm
best wishes
Maria
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Thank you for your reply Maria. The names are correct as they appear on a tomb-stone in Patagonia. And they also more or less tie up with the family I found in Aberdare.....the names, the dates (alsmost exactly) location ie Tresalem which isn't that big an area and child's name and dob. Thanks for the details of the Mimosa journey in 1865. Haven't seen that one before. However, they traveled at a later date which was 1874 aboard the Hipparcus which is why the appear on the 1871 Census but I can't find any of them in 1881. I've looked up Elizabeth Williams to see if she appears on the Births register and unfortunately, there are several of the same year. I suppose I need to find out the exact quarter she was born along with their registration district which I would think would either be Pontypridd or Merthyr Tydfil.....probably the latter. Am I going along the correct lines of investigation or am I missing something which would help me along?
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http://www.argbrit.org/index.html - might be useful :)
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Thanks. Will take a look at it.
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I've now found a number of Elizabeth Williams's born in 1867 and I'm almost certain their registration district is Merthyr Tydfil. Is there any way of finding out which one is the one I'm looking for before purchasing a certificate. I don't yet know which quarter she was born in but still there's a number each quarter. It's difficult if you're looking for somebody whose surname is a common one! It might possibly mean me spending a hundred pounds or more before fining the correct certificate.
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Hello :)
If you contact the local register office, and specify all the known facts, they should be able to find the correct certificate. Include parent's names, father's occupation, Parish/locality, etc should help narrow down the options.
You are correct that Aberdare was included in Merthyr registration district:
http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/genuki/reg/districts/merthyr%20tydfil.html
Best Wishes
Morgan
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Thank you Morganllan. Diolch.
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You're welcome! :)
The National Library of Wales has Patagonia Manuscripts which include a document, written in Welsh, "relating to the history of Moriah Aman Welsh Congregational Church, Cwmaman, Aberdâr, 1855-1988, and including references to the emigration of church members to Patagonia, 1874-5." NLW MS 22642E.
http://www.llgc.org.uk/index.php?id=2671
If you could obtain a copy from the library, someone could help translate if, if necessary.
Kind Regards
Morgan
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Thank you again Morganllan. I'm awaiting a birth certificate for one of their children which should hopefully provide me with information as to whether I've got the right family. I'm sure I have now. The other child had a middle name too which only brought up a few results for the Merthyr registration district....a David James Williams, born in 1871. He died a young man of around 19 years old in Buenos Aires suffering from typhoid feaver. This is on his gravestone in Gaiman, Patagonia......"Er cof anwyl am David James, mab Thomas S. a Mary Williams Tresalem, yr hwn a fu farw yn Buenos Aires, Meh. 6, 1890, yn 19 ml. oed." On a side note.....they also lost at least one other child in Patagonia as well as losing Mary Williams herself through illness aboard a ship returning to Wales. Life was obviously hard.
If I've the correct family, they lived in Phillip St., Tresalem / Robertstown. Looking at the google map, it's only 3-4 kms from Moriah Chapel so it's quite possible the people mentioned in your link include the ones I'm researching although I'm not sure what denomination they were*. Thanks again.
*I've been told that all of the Welsh denominations have a common burial ground outside of Gaiman so there were no clues there.
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OK, let us know how you get on once you have the birth certificate. :D
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I got the certificate today and the name of the child which I knew Thomas and Mary had matches up to the address which I suspected was their home and whole residents' names match the couple I'm looking for. I've found out the Mary's former surname was Griffiths and in 1861 and 1871 it states on the Census form that she was born in Llanboidy. I've looked for a Mary Griffiths matching this information ie Mary Griffiths dob 1840 and born in Llanboidy. The best fit I get in 1841 is a Mary Griffiths born in Llanglydwen which is in the sub-district of Llanboidy and born 1840 when she is 7 months old. In 1851 she appears again but with a middle name this time......Mary Anne Griffiths. Then in 1861, she's with Thomas Williams in Aberdare. The two things that I'm a little 'concerned' about is that in the first two censuses she's born in the parish of Llanglydwen which is in the sub-district of Llanboidy....and I'm not sure what to make of the middle name. It doesn't appear on her tomb-stone. If she's the one.....she doesn't actually live in either Llanglydwen or Llanboidy but on a small-holding which is 4.5 miles from Llanboidy and 1 mile from Llanglydwen. If I've got the right person.....why in 1861 would the Census state her place of birth as Llanboidy? I suppose they would rely on what Mary herself would tell the person filling out the form? Any suggestions fellow researchers?
Also Morganllan, that link you gave me to the National Library Archives appears to be related. There was a Rev John Caerenig Davies who had links with Llandybie and was a miner in east Carmarthenshire and then went to preach at Moriah Chapel in Aberdare. He then left for Patagonia in 1874 taking a number of his parishioners with him. And apparently, when Mary Williams died, her widowed husband Thomas later married Rev Davies' sister. So thank you for that information. I'll visit Aberystwyth some time. The rest of the information came from my friend in Argentina ie his marriage to the Reverend's sister.
PS Should I now move this to the Carmarthenshire area for we appear to be done for the moment in Glamorganshire?
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Now looking for Mary Griffiths, born 1840 Llanboidy, who married Thomas Williams and moved to Patagonia! :D
Have you found a likely marriage for them? May be worth looking at one in Merthyr district in 1859, provided that it is Aberdare and Thomas is a coal miner.
Merthyr T 11a 480
P.S. Moved to Carmarthenshire board
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Now looking for Mary Griffiths, born 1840 Llanboidy, who married Thomas Williams and moved to Patagonia! :D
Have you found a likely marriage for them? May be worth looking at one in Merthyr district in 1859, provided that it is Aberdare and Thomas is a coal miner.
Merthyr T 11a 480
P.S. Moved to Carmarthenshire board
I had been looking for a marriage for them in Carmarthenshire to tell you the truth Morganllan. I have them in Aberdare in 1871 and also I believe in 1861. Yes, he was a miner. I thought that both being Carmarthenshire people.....although living quite a distance from each other that they would have met and married in their old county and then moved to Aberdare in search for work in the coal mines. I didn't think they would have gone together out of wedlock if you know what I mean? And I felt that a male might well find himself in Aberdare as a bachelor but not a female. I hope I make sense. But I might be totally wrong. Thank you. I'll take a look at that.
PS How do you know this man was a miner in the reference you provide?
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Hello :)
I just thought that perhaps Mary had moved with her parents to Aberdare, and then met Thomas. I think that is more likely than a Llanboidy girl meeting a Llandybie boy in Carmarthenshire, but I may be wrong.
There is one example of such a Griffiths family moving from Llanboidy/Llanglydwen to Aberdare, who appear on the 1851 census.
Mill Street, Aberdare
James Griffiths Head age 42 born Llanfrynach, Pembrokeshire Hooper
Anna Griffiths Wife age 44 born Llanboidy, Carmarthenshire
David Griffiths Son age 22 born Llanboidy, Carmarthenshire Miner
William Griffiths Son age 14 born Llanglydwen, Carmarthenshire Miner
Mary Griffiths Dau age 9 born Llanglydwen, Carmarthenshire
Phebe Griffiths Dau age 7 born Llanglydwen, Carmarthenshire
Daniel Griffiths Son age 3 born Aberdare, Glamorgan
John Griffiths Lodger age 22 born Llanglydwen, Carmarthenshire Miner
William Morgan Lodger age 25 born Llanfrynach, Pembrokeshire Miner
Benjamin James Lodger age 27 born Llanfrynach, Pembrokeshire Carpenter
HO107 Piece 2460 Folio 449 Page 31
I knew that Thomas was a miner from the 1861 census :D
Best Regards
Morgan
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Thank you Morganllan. I guess the next step would be for me to get their marriage certificate? The one you gave the index reference to earlier?
Ha....look at them. They seem to have taken half of Llanfyrnach in as lodgers. And the minister from Llandybie went there too before taking many of his congregation with him to Patagonia. I think these people are fascinating. It's strange but this is the same area as some of my ancestors come from. Some of them were also Griffiths.
Oh yes....regarding the family above, Mary Griffiths is 9 years old in 1851 which would make her dob around 1842. In later censuses as being born according to her age in 1840 and on her tomb stone too. Is it common for such a margin of error?
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"..regarding the family above, Mary Griffiths is 9 years old in 1851 which would make her dob around 1842. In later censuses as being born according to her age in 1840 and on her tomb stone too. Is it common for such a margin of error?
I think it may be worth getting the marriage certificate, but remember to specify the likely area so that you don't get a Merthyr marriage. :D
Re the age of Mary Griffiths, if she was born in 1840 she could be 10 years old in 1851 if her birthday was later than 31st March. That would mean a small discrepancy of 1 year between 1851 and later census records.
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Thanks again Morganllan. :-)
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Hello :)
If you contact the local register office, and specify all the known facts, they should be able to find the correct certificate. Include parent's names, father's occupation, Parish/locality, etc should help narrow down the options.
You are correct that Aberdare was included in Merthyr registration district:
http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/genuki/reg/districts/merthyr%20tydfil.html
Best Wishes
Morgan
I telephoned the Merthyr office and I told them them details of the couple's names and I was told that they did have a record for such a pair getting married. I asked if they would tell me the address and employment of Thomas Williams and I was told that they couldn't tell me anything and that to find out I would have to purchase the certificate. Is this unusual?
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I telephoned the Merthyr office and I told them them details of the couple's names and I was told that they did have a record for such a pair getting married. I asked if they would tell me the address and employment of Thomas Williams and I was told that they couldn't tell me anything and that to find out I would have to purchase the certificate. Is this unusual?
No, it's not unusual :D If you decide to order the certificate, state that you expect it to be Aberdare area, and hopefully it will be the right family.
Good luck and let us know how you get on
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Hi again,
I got the certificate you suggested above Morganllan. It looks like it's the certificate for the couple I'm looking for. Thomas lives in Robertstown, Aberdare and Mary lives in Mill Street and her father is a James Griffiths. Thank you.
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I'm pleased that you have the right marriage certificate :)