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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Australia Lookups completed => Topic started by: tedscout on Saturday 20 July 13 13:25 BST (UK)
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Margaret Mary CORBETT was born in 1863 in Cranbourne Victoria. On her death certificate dated 13 June 1932 (in the name of Margaret Mary WOODLAND) she has 2 marriages.
1st marriage to Michael MOORE at age 15 in Cranbourne - they had 4 children the youngest is Margaret aged 47.
2nd marriage is to Syndey WOODLAND at age 30 years in Cranbourne - they had 2 children the eldest was Ada age 36.
The person who registered the death was an authorised agent.
I cannot find a marriage between Michael MOORE AND Margaret Mary and I cannnot find a death for Michael MOORE.
I hope someone can help me find this information. Thanks in advance, cheers Ted
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I need more help - I can't find the 2nd marraige either :'(
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I can't see either of them YET up until 1901. I can check the later indexes if you want :-\
BUT I did notice Ada's birth ::)
CORBETT Ada Woodland b. 1894 CRANBOURNE #19835R
Father: Unknown
Mother: Margt CORBEN
MOORE Ada Woodland b. 1894 CRANBOURNE #19835R
Father: Unknown
Mother: Margt CORBETT
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I've found all the children's births Merlin - I just want to find the marriages so I can buy the certs and see what they say - its driving me nuts.
Do you think that some of the records in Cranbourne got lost?
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I think it is more likely that Margaret wasn't the marrying kind. ;D
She obviously wasn't married to WOODLAND when Ada was born, and in 1909 she was on the electoral roll as Margaret Mary MOORE at 36 O'Grady Street, Clifton Hill. Also at that address are her son (?) Richard MOORE and Mary CORBETT.
In 1914 she is Margaret Mary WOODLAND, still at at 36 O'Grady Street and Sydney is now with her. Richard and Mary are still there as well.
Debra :)
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Checked all the marriages up until her death = ZILCH!
To be honest I don't think she married either of them but I would like to be proven wrong ;)
It's always possible that some records are missing but the births & deaths for those years & area are all appearing on the index, marriages only give place of birth on some of the early indexes but not place of marriage. So you can't search by place name :(
There are lots of deaths for the name Michael MOORE!
Do you have any of the children's birth certificates with any details about Michael or Sydney on them? Or Sydney's death certificate?
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Debra - that was my worst thought when I started researching tonight, now I think you have decided it for me.
I was hoping marriage certificates would help me find her mother Mary Corbet nee Walsh.
As Margarets father was dead I was hoping to find that Mary Corbett had given permission for the first marriage. After all she was only 15, and an address of where they were living at that time.
I want to put a time line together of their places of residence after Richard Cobrbett (Mary Walsh's husband and Margaret Mary's father) died.
Mary Corbett - Margaret's mother died at 36 O'Grady Street.
Richard Corbett's - biography is getting more like "Home and Away" everytime I think of another path to research.
Thanks for your help, Cheers Ted
Red post: Thanks Merlin - I think the death certs are the next place to look, Thanks
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I'm off to bed - I have to cook breakfast at 7am for 50 hungry Cubs, but does anyone know how I can find out who owned 36 O'Grady Street during that time?
Richard was wealthy when he died and he left everything to Mary as long as she didnt marry. Its just a thought but ............
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WA BDM seems to be broken for me at the moment, but I noticed in this article that "Syd has latterly resided in West Australia, but returned to Victoria....." http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/69567266
Perhaps they married in WA?
Debra :)
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Sydney's Boer War dossier, 7 Jan 1902:
Are you married? No
What is your permanent address? 36 O'Grady Street, Clifton Hill, Victoria.
http://dhistory.org/archives/naa/items/688903/
Debra :)
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1903 VIC Electoral Roll.
All living at 36 O'Grady St, Clifton Hill:
BROWN Henry - labourer
CORBETT Mary - home duties
MOORE Richard - hatter
WOODLAND Margaret - home duties
WOODLAND Sydney - Clerk
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Ted,
There has to be some reason why Margaret did not marry Sydney Woodland, why she did not register the birth of Sydney Walter Woodland when he was born about 1892, and why Ada's birth was registered as illegitimate. The likely reason is that either Sydney Woodland or Margaret were already married. As Margaret's first 4 children to Michael Moore were all registered as legitimate births with full details of the father it strongly suggests that Margaret was already married to Michael Moore, and that this is the reason why she could not marry Sydney Woodland.
The index for Ada's birth, with no father being named in the index, clearly shows that Ada's birth was considered to be illegitimate by the registrar who recorded the details:
Corbett, Ada Woodland
Father: Corbett
Mother: Margt Corben(sic)
1894
Cranborne
#19835R
Moore, Ada Woodland
Father: Moore
Mother: Margt Corbett
Cranborne
#19835R
The actual birth registration shows other clues that you may be able to use. This is because the birth registration gives a date and place for Margaret's marriage to Michael Moore.
When and where born:
28th May 1894
Langmarine
Shire of Cranborne
County of Mornington
Name and whether present of not:
Ada Woodland
not present
(Note: no surnames recorded in this column)
Sex:
Female
Name & Profession of Father, Age & birthplace of Father:
Illegitimate
When & where married, Issue Living & deceased (of this marriage):
8th January 1879, Sherwood
(Note: Just days before Margaret's 16th birthday)
Cornelius 14
Richard 13
Mary 11
Maggie 9
(Note: Sydney Walter not listed as he is not a child of this marriage)
THIS SECTION THEN CROSSED OUT AND WRITTEN ACROSS IT:
Cancelled, Illegitimate
Name and maiden surname of Mother, Age & birthplace of Mother:
Margaret Moore nee Corbett
31 years, Sherwood
Signature, descriptive & address of Informant:
Margaret Moore
mother
Somerville
after declaration made as by law required*
Witness of birth:
Mrs Wiltshire
When & where registered:
21st August 1894, Cranborne
Signature of Deputy Register:
M Duff
acting registrar
*1st time I have ever seen this written, and it is not on the certificates above of below. I am guessing that Margaret wanted to have Ada's birth registered with Sydney Woodland shown as the father and that the registrar would not allow this, but did allow Ada to have the name Woodland registered as one of the first names.
I was not expecting to find details of the marriage to Michael Moore on Ada's birth registration as it shouldn't have been recorded there. (I was going to suggest that you purchase Cornelius's 1880 birth registration to get marriage details, but now you won't have to.) The place called Sherwood appears to be a place that was called either Sherwood or Sherwood Park (unless Sherwood Park refered only to the race track at Sherwood - see following) and from street names existing to day appears to have been near Cranborne. All I have been able to find out for sure is that a town named Sherwood did exist in Victoria, and that they once held races there.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/70009706 (Apr 1877 - also mentions Sherwood Hotel)
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/11566437 (1886 - refered to as Sherwood Park)
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/70012721 (Apr 1891 - refered to as Sherwood)
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/8512901 (Feb 1893 - refered to as Sherwood Park)
& many more references in between these dates to races at Sherwood or Sherwood Park
Not all marriages made it into the official records. Sometimes the minister forgot to send in the details. This appears to be one of those marriages. Your best bet woult be to track down the parish registers for all the churches in Sherwood in 1879 if you want to see the original record of the marriage. Perhaps another rootschatter can tell you if there is a way to do this.
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.....
Corbett, Ada Woodland
Father: Corbett
Mother: Margt Corben(sic)
1894
Cranborne
#19835R
Moore, Ada Woodland
Father: Moore
Mother: Margt Corbett
Cranborne
#19835R
.....
after declaration made as by law required*
*1st time I have ever seen this written, and it is not on the certificates above of below. I am guessing that Margaret wanted to have Ada's birth registered with Sydney Woodland shown as the father and that the registrar would not allow this, but did allow Ada to have the name Woodland registered as one of the first names.......
I was not expecting to find details of the marriage to Michael Moore on Ada's birth registration as it shouldn't have been recorded there.........
Not all marriages made it into the official records. Sometimes the minister forgot to send in the details. This appears to be one of those marriages. Your best bet woult be to track down the parish registers for all the churches in Sherwood in 1879 if you want to see the original record of the marriage. Perhaps another rootschatter can tell you if there is a way to do this.
I am not that familiar with Vic BDM records, but I think that the "R" is for REVISED, meaning that there has been a revision made to the information supplied initially.
Here's a thread where the question re "after declaration made as ......" has been posed and answered...
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,609530.msg4588687.html#msg4588687
ADDING ....
this one too
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=552137.0
Cheers, JM
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Anything useful here?....
South Burke and Mornington Journal (Richmond, Vic) 15 Jun 1887
Griffith Point Police Court…..Mary Corbett v. Michael Moore; illegal detention of goods valued at £49-Mr. F.
The Argus 14 Jun 1932 WOODLAND.-On the 13th June, at her residence 36, Rutland street, Clifton Hill, Margaret, beloved wife of Sydney Woodland and dearly beloved mother of Con Moore (W.A), Dick Moore, Sis (Mrs. James Clarkson), Chick (Mrs. E. Kingston), Ada (Mrs. V.W.Bull) and Walter Woodland, aged 69 years. Requieseat in pace. (W.A. papers, please copy)
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The correct spelling of the Shire is Cranbourne not Cranborne.
When and where born:
28th May 1894
Langmarine
Shire of Cranborne
County of Mornington
When & where registered:
21st August 1894, Cranborne
So born in May 1894 and registered in August 1894.
Ada Woodland
not present
(Note: no surnames recorded in this column)
The surname is not recorded in this column, only given names. The surname of the father in the next column is the child's surname ie if a father's name is noted.
*1st time I have ever seen this written, and it is not on the certificates above of below. I am guessing that Margaret wanted to have Ada's birth registered with Sydney Woodland shown as the father and that the registrar would not allow this, but did allow Ada to have the name Woodland registered as one of the first names.
If the registrations above and below were registered within the prescribed period following a birth, this note would not appear.
I have many Victorian birth certificates with this notation including my paternal grandfather.
A couple of examples NB these are not my family but others on the same pages of the many Victorian birth certificates I hold.
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This is the link to RChat's Unwanted BDM certificate threads
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/board,153.0.html
Perhaps there could be other RChatters in the future who would be interested in the info for any of the babies whose 1894 births are registered on the document :)
Cheers, JM
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*1st time I have ever seen this written, and it is not on the certificates above of below. I am guessing that Margaret wanted to have Ada's birth registered with Sydney Woodland shown as the father and that the registrar would not allow this, but did allow Ada to have the name Woodland registered as one of the first names.
If the registrations above and below were registered within the prescribed period following a birth, this note would not appear.
I have many Victorian birth certificates with this notation including my paternal grandfather.
A couple of examples NB these are not my family but others on the same pages of the many Victorian birth certificates I hold.
[/quote]
So are you saying, Cando, that the notation has nothing to do with the wishes of the mother regarding child's surname, but is to do with the time lapsed between birth and registration?
Sue
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*1st time I have ever seen this written, and it is not on the certificates above of below. I am guessing that Margaret wanted to have Ada's birth registered with Sydney Woodland shown as the father and that the registrar would not allow this, but did allow Ada to have the name Woodland registered as one of the first names.
If the registrations above and below were registered within the prescribed period following a birth, this note would not appear.
I have many Victorian birth certificates with this notation including my paternal grandfather.
A couple of examples NB these are not my family but others on the same pages of the many Victorian birth certificates I hold.
So are you saying, Cando, that the notation has nothing to do with the wishes of the mother regarding child's surname, but is to do with the time lapsed between birth and registration?
Sue
[/quote]
Yes that's correct. I can't recall the prescribed period that births must be registered after the event. Will see if I can find it when I get a moment.
Sands and MacDougall Victorian Directory
1904
CLIFTON HILL
O'Grady Street - North Side
36 MOORE. Mrs Margt
Cheers :)
Cando
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When & where married, Issue Living & deceased (of this marriage):
8th January 1879, Sherwood
(Note: Just days before Margaret's 16th birthday)
Anne
And Wivenhoe's excellent find.
South Burke and Mornington Journal (Richmond, Vic) 15 Jun 1887
Griffith Point Police Court…..Mary Corbett v. Michael Moore; illegal detention of goods valued at £49-Mr. F.
More evidence that Michael and Margaret were not married.
Cando
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:)
Does that mean there's two admin issues re this particular birth ....
1) the "R" on the index indicating there's been clerical changes made to the initial registration. (the line drawn through the section re the baby's father's profession etc.)
2) the late registration causing the informant to make a formal declaration re the date of birth of the baby.
Name & Profession of Father, Age & birthplace of Father:
Illegitimate
When & where married, Issue Living & deceased (of this marriage):
8th January 1879, Sherwood
(Note: Just days before Margaret's 16th birthday)
Cornelius 14
Richard 13
Mary 11
Maggie 9
(Note: Sydney Walter not listed as he is not a child of this marriage)
THIS SECTION THEN CROSSED OUT AND WRITTEN ACROSS IT:
Cancelled, Illegitimate
.........
Signature, descriptive & address of Informant:
Margaret Moore
mother
Somerville
after declaration made as by law required
Witness of birth:
Mrs Wiltshire
When & where registered:
21st August 1894, Cranborne
Signature of Deputy Register:
M Duff
acting registrar
Mind you, as far as I am aware, at least in NSW, there was no requirement for anyone to "prove" they were a married couple when registering a birth (I guess regulations in VIC in 19thC would be similar) ....
Cheers, JM
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"as required by the Act,within 60 days after birth. In cases where the registration was not made within 60 days a fee of 5s was charged. "
FIVE BOB .... :) for being late... ::)
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/88992527 Bendigo Advertiser 27 Oct 1896.
Cheers, JM
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I may well be incorrect and that's nothing new however I always understood that the R suffix to the registration number indicated there were two registrations ie the registration was repeated with the same registration number as there was either conflicting information or the details were not clear. Another reason springs to mind....if the couple marry after the birth is registered and if the father wishes to have his name noted on the birth as such. When researching in Vic I have also found births registered years after the event and the letter R as a suffix. I do have some literature 'somewhere'.
Perhaps I should note....the above paragraph probably contains errors and omissions :P
Cheers :)
Cando
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And Wivenhoe's excellent find.
Quote
South Burke and Mornington Journal (Richmond, Vic) 15 Jun 1887
Griffith Point Police Court…..Mary Corbett v. Michael Moore; illegal detention of goods valued at £49-Mr. F.
More evidence that Michael and Margaret were not married.
Cando
Probably fortunate that I don't have the modify button to 'correct' the above...just realised the error :-[ Mary not Margaret :-[
I still doubt there was a marriage.
Cando
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:)
I thought that Mary Corbett was Margaret Mary's mum :) so the cutting was suggesting to me that Michael Moore's Mother in law (either formally or at least informally) was prosecuting him....
Cheers, JM
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Cornelius 14
Richard 13
Mary 11
Maggie 9
(Note: Sydney Walter not listed as he is not a child of this marriage)
I think Sydney isn't there because he wasn't born. The age on his death reg. in 1941 is 45, giving him a birth year of c1896, so he was younger than Ada.
Debra :)
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Well, of course ..... Excellent point Debra :)
Margaret Mary CORBETT was born in 1863 in Cranbourne Victoria. On her death certificate dated 13 June 1932 (in the name of Margaret Mary WOODLAND) she has 2 marriages.
1st marriage to Michael MOORE at age 15 in Cranbourne - they had 4 children the youngest is Margaret aged 47.
2nd marriage is to Syndey WOODLAND at age 30 years in Cranbourne - they had 2 children the eldest was Ada age 36.
The person who registered the death was an authorised agent.
I cannot find a marriage between Michael MOORE AND Margaret Mary and I cannnot find a death for Michael MOORE.
I hope someone can help me find this information. Thanks in advance, cheers Ted
and
I've found all the children's births Merlin - I just want to find the marriages so I can buy the certs and see what they say - its driving me nuts.
Do you think that some of the records in Cranbourne got lost?
Ted, that driving me nuts disorder seems to be able to reach across cyberspace, cause I am getting headache from looking and looking and looking and NOT finding either marriage.... :'(
Cheers, JM
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It begs the questions ;D
What was the impediment to the first marriage?
If there was no first marriage
What was the impediment to the second marriage?
Sue
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Hi everyone, I've just got home from Cub camp - how can 50 little kids eat 5kg of bacon and 5 dozen eggs, 4kg of baked beans and 10 loaves of bread. I'm feeling very tired but rather proud that the camp committee personally came to thank me for springcleaing the kitchen (I wasnt going to cook in there otherwise).
Anyway back now and I have to take in all the fabulous work you guys have been doing on mybehalf. I am gob smacked.
Going to take a shower (I stink of bacon and the cat is going nuts) and I will then answer all your questions.
Thank you sososososososososo much.
Oh and as the Cubs would say WOLF! (imagine me stamping my foot at the end of that wolf)
Luv Ted (Oh a big loud Wolf is the best way a Cub can thank you for your good work)
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I was hoping marriage certificates would help me find her mother Mary Corbet nee Walsh.
Ted, without going back through all the CORBETT threads, do you have Mary CORBETT nee WALSH's death cert?
1917
Mary CORBETT
Died C(lifton) Hill, Victoria
Age: 80
Father: Rich. WALSH
Mother: Margt. DESMOND
#979
Debra :)
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I may well be incorrect and that's nothing new however I always understood that the R suffix to the registration number indicated there were two registrations ie the registration was repeated with the same registration number as there was either conflicting information or the details were not clear. Another reason springs to mind....if the couple marry after the birth is registered and if the father wishes to have his name noted on the birth as such. When researching in Vic I have also found births registered years after the event and the letter R as a suffix. I do have some literature 'somewhere'.
I have to agree. I have copies of VIC birth registrations that have an R on the index but absolutely no revisions on the certificate. They instead are registrations of illegitimate births and have at least 2 inclusions of the registration on the index under at least 2 different surnames (I have never seen one with more than 2 surnames, but you never know). When you order the certificate from BDM VIC the R is not used. If you try to use the R when you order the certificate you will get an error. The R exists only on the index.
It begs the questions ;D
What was the impediment to the first marriage?
If there was no first marriage
What was the impediment to the second marriage?
Sue
I agree Sue. It also begs the question of why would Margaret make up a marriage for the registration of the birth of a baby to another man?
Mind you, as far as I am aware, at least in NSW, there was no requirement for anyone to "prove" they were a married couple when registering a birth (I guess regulations in VIC in 19thC would be similar) ....
I don't know how someone would have proved whether they were married on not, but the question was definately asked of the informant when they appeared to register the birth in VIC. The registrar was looking for the mother to be married to the father, and not to someone else, otherwise they often wrote the word "illegitimate" on the document. Perhaps people were sometimes too honest and didn't think to lie about their marital status? You would think that if Margaret was going to make up a marriage for this registration it would have been a marriage to Sydney Woodland, and not one to Michael Moore.
BTW I have just looked at Cornelius's birth registration - it says that the marriage to Michael Moore was on the 8th January 1879 (as on Ada's registration) but this time that the marriage was at Cranbourne. This just confirms that Sherwood was next to Cranbourne and would form part of Cranbourne today. Margaret was 17 years old (she had just tuned 17 when Cornelius was born, and it still says that she was born at Sherwood. The informant was the father Michael. Again the registration says "after declaration made by law as required, with a date of registration of 8 May 1880, and a date of birth 17 January 1880, which just confirms what others have been saying about this meaning that the birth was registered late.
Unfortunately just because a marriage does not appear in the registrations does not mean that it did not occur, just that the minister forgot to forward the details. The only way to find the original record of the marriage is in the parish register of the church in which the marriage occured. Bummer not knowing what was the denomination.
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Oh Ted, I don't know if you need this information of not, but Michael Moore said that he was 22 years old when Cornelius was born, and that he had been born in Campbells Creek, Castlemaine, Victoria.
Just found a birth registration in 1857, and a family tree that says he died on 9 Jun 1928 at Yarram in Victoria, but I haven't found a death registration.
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I've just found a death registration but it isn't under Moore, it is under Sweeney, and has the wrong mother's name (Michael Moore's mother's name was Mary Ryan, and his father was Cornelius Moore.)
Michael Sweeney d age 70 Yarram in Victoria
Son of Cornelius Sweeney & Elizth Odonohue
ref: 8239 - 1928 Victoria
Wouldn't the above death registration be for someone else, and not for Michael Moore?
Later addition to post:
SWEENEY. -On the 13th May, at his residence, Michael Sweeney. Beloved by all.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/3936736
Not 9 June either.
YARRAM.
The burial of Mr. Michael Sweeney....see this article for more
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/3951557
This is not the right man.
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Gentle reminder re RChat policy re copyright issues and
Does your copy give further info ... children of marriage etc
CHeers JM
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I was hoping marriage certificates would help me find her mother Mary Corbet nee Walsh.
Ted, without going back through all the CORBETT threads, do you have Mary CORBETT nee WALSH's death cert?
1917
Mary CORBETT
Died C(lifton) Hill, Victoria
Age: 80
Father: Rich. WALSH
Mother: Margt. DESMOND
#979
Debra :)
Answering the simple one first (thats the post Debra not the poster) - yes I do have Mary (nee Walsh) CORBETT's death cert
It doesn't help me much other than her place of death which is 36 O'Grady Street
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:)
I thought that Mary Corbett was Margaret Mary's mum :) so the cutting was suggesting to me that Michael Moore's Mother in law (either formally or at least informally) was prosecuting him....
Cheers, JM
MJ you are correct - Mary (nee Walsh) CORBETT and Richard CORBETT are Margaret Mary's parents
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2 pages of notes: Here it is -and I thank everyone for all your hard work
Deb - thanks for the WA link and the Boer war records. So he wasn't married and lived at 36 O'Grady gives me a lot to think about.
Merlin - Not sure who Henry Brown was - but the rest make sense - thank you so much. I am still trying to figure out how you found people living in the same house in 1903 that had different surnames.
Keinname, thank you for your imput. Maybe as Debra suggests - MM (Margaret Mary) was not the marrying type. Cranbourne was the back blocks of Victoria back then. I should know I lived there until 1983.
I have to ask "how do you know Ada was illigitamate?"
Langmaine = Langwarrin - I should know it's my home town
Sherwood was a parish of Cranbourne - most of Richard CORBETTS land was in the parish of Sherwood - my father is in a nursing home there right now.
MJ- all the Vic BMD's I have that have an R added to the index are because something has been changed, or added in the margin.
winenhoe - you post is very important as it places them both in the same place at the same town. Thankyou
Cando - Thank you - one of my pet hates is when place names are spelt wrong Gisborne - Gisbourne. Cranbourne - Cranborne.
Cando - I am not familiar with the Sands and MacDougal directory - was Margaret the landowner?
To all who are interested - Richard CORBETT'S property extended all the way from Cranbourne to Blind Bight on the coast of Western Port. So when I see Somerville mentioned it makes sense.
JM - I'm sending you some panadol - so sorry for causing you a headache
I feel blessed, thank you everyone for helping me. Lots of luv and blessings, Ted
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Michael Moore said that he was 22 years old when Cornelius was born, and that he had been born in Campbells Creek, Castlemaine, Victoria. Just found a birth registration in 1857, and a family tree that says he died on 9 Jun 1928 at Yarram in Victoria, but I haven't found a death registration.
I've just found a death registration but it isn't under Moore, it is under Sweeney, and has the wrong mother's name (Michael Moore's mother's name was Mary Ryan, and his father was Cornelius Moore.)
Sometimes you just need the right resources...
Death:
MOORE Michael Joseph age 71yrs d. 1928 YARRAM 8243
Father Cornelius MOORE
Mother Mary RYAN
Birth:
MOORE Michael b. 1857 CASTLEMAINE 7256
Father Cornelius
Mother Mary RYAN
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Luv you Merlin,
How do I prove that is my Michael MOORE. I've seen the other trees with his middle name as joseph, but have not proved it.
Please help me.
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iWhat is on the dc? status ... marriage/s ... children
Who has a copy?
any probate/will at PROV?
Cheers JM
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E Roll
1924
MOORE, Michael Joseph, Devon. Labourer.
There are a number of MOOREs in the area including
MOORE Cornelius, Jack River, Labourer.
Sue
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The CORNELIUS mentioned on the E roll above seems to be a brother of MICAHEL.
Death
MOORE Cornelius
Father Moore Cornelius
Mother Mary RYAN
Death Place YARRAM
Age 74
Year 1928
Reg 4061
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Ted, one of the tree owners states they have his death certificate which supposedly confirms his relationship with Margaret.
http://www.mundia.com/au/Person/9564677/1001196979
Post edited to remove possible identifying information
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Or this site has something which might be it $1.00 ;D
You can get lucky with Dawn!
http://home.vicnet.net.au/~mgfhs/dawnsbmd/m2.htm
Sue
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I have to ask "how do you know Ada was illigitimate?"
Firstly any birth without a father's name listed, or where the father was not married to the mother, was regarded as illegitimate.
Secondly it states illegitimate twice on Ada's birth registration.
Maybe as Debra suggests - MM (Margaret Mary) was not the marrying type.
I don't believe for one minute that it is that simple. You have 4 children who were born legitimately to Michael Moore and Margaret according to their birth registrations. Then after this relationship broke down you have 2 children who were born illegitimately to Sydney Woodland. For all the births that were registered (4 legitimate, and Ada) a date and place for the marriage to Michael Moore was given.
There also has to be a reason why Margaret did not marry Sydney Woodland (though she took his surname and pretended that she was married to him). The impediment to a marriage to Sydney was still being married to Michael Moore.
There was no reason for Margaret not to have been married to Michael, both Margaret and Michael independantly state the same date and place for this marriage to have occured, this marriage stopped Margaret from marrying Sydney, and there was no reason for Margaret to mention a marriage to Michael when she registered Ada's birth, if anything there was every reason not to mention it.
Just as every birth was regisered (and in this case the example is the birth of Syney Jnr), and just as every death was not registered (and there are many many of these - just compare the cemetery index to the death index), not every marriage was registered. Not many marriages would have missed being regisatered by 1879, but it still did happen. All it took was for the minister to forget to sent in the paperwork.
Thinking aloud. It is possible that Michael & Margaret had a home wedding. The paperwork for a home wedding would be more likely to be forgotten to be sent in by minister than one performed in his church. (They did forget to sometimes send in paperwork for church weddings too though.)
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Cando - I am not familiar with the Sands and MacDougal directory - was Margaret the landowner?
I describe the Sands and MacDougall directories similar to our white and yellow pages without the telephone numbers. The early ones are excellent resources for tracking persons in Melbourne and surrounding areas. Margaret was the occupier of 36 O'Grady Street, Clifton Hill. I guess it is possible she owned the property but that could only be confirmed by a search of the title at the Titles Office or what ever it is known by today. Have a look on google streetview. Would be the same house today :)
Merlin and I possibly have the same 1903 Vic roll. It is possible to search by address.
Cheers
Cando
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just as every death was not registered (and there are many many of these - just compare the cemetery index to the death index)
Anne
May I ask what cemetery index and which death index?
Cando
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Ted, one of the tree owners FREEMAN Family Tree (tonydfreeman) states they have his death certificate which supposedly confirms his relationship with Margaret.
http://www.mundia.com/au/Person/9564677/1001196979
That is my family tree. Where does it state I have "his" death cert. I have Margarets and that is where I got my info that is on that tree, from
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I have just edited my Ancestry tree to say that it is information from Margarets family tree. - wow never thought anyone took any interest in ancestry trees. If you look at my tree in detail you will find that I am one of only a few who makes comments. And I have given thanks to Rootschat members for information.
I even asked our Mod T if it was ok to mention Rootschat as a source.
:'(
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There also has to be a reason why Margaret did not marry Sydney Woodland (though she took his surname and pretended that she was married to him).
May I note that Margaret was quite entitled to use any name she wanted. It was not and still is not illegal to use any name, so long as you are not acting fraudulently or attempting to deceive. Name changes through usage were not unusual. "Mrs" as a courtesy title was also not unusual.
Cheers, JM
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Cando - I am not familiar with the Sands and MacDougal directory - was Margaret the landowner?
I describe the Sands and MacDougall directories similar to our white and yellow pages without the telephone numbers. The early ones are excellent resources for tracking persons in Melbourne and surrounding areas. Margaret was the occupier of 36 O'Grady Street, Clifton Hill. I guess it is possible she owned the property but that could only be confirmed by a search of the title at the Titles Office or what ever it is known by today. Have a look on google streetview. Would be the same house today :)
Merlin and I possibly have the same 1903 Vic roll. It is possible to search by address.
Cheers
Cando
Thank you so much Cando
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Ted, one of the tree owners states they have his death certificate which supposedly confirms his relationship with Margaret.
http://www.mundia.com/au/Person/9564677/1001196979
Post edited to remove possible identifying information
Merlin is so amazing that - my Ancestry tree was found on Mundia. - I have to note that I do state that It is from Margarets death cert. and therefore all speculation.
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Ted, Mundia belongs to Ancestry...
If your tree in not marked private the world can see it for free ;D
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Ted, Mundia belongs to Ancestry...
If your tree in not marked private the world can see it for free ;D
and I am completely ok with that. Its out there for all so see and If Im wrong I will change it. PLEASE IF I AM WRONG TELL ME.
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So Ted do you or do you not have MICHAEL JOSEPH MOORE's death cert?
My reply #42 has given you a lead as to where you may acquire it .
Sue
ADDING in case you had not noted it.
The cost is one dollar
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Thanks Sue, Yes I have his death certificated thank you.
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‘Curiouser and curiouser!' cried RChatter JM….
And then JM asked a direct question .... :)
Ted, is there anything on the dc to share with ‘Keen as Mustard’ RChatters please…….
Cheers, JM
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It does say that he Married Margaret Corbet in Dandenong age 21.
His sister Mary Moore reigstered his death.
All 4 children are there.
What else can I tell you?
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:)
Is there any mention of his then current marital status .... widower/married/divorced.... (I am not sure if this would actually be a heading on Vic BDM dc)
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,373754.0.html
Cheers, JM
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This is a time line I've put together for Margaret. If anyone can add anything I would be greatful.
1857 Michael MOORE born in Castlemaine
1863 Margaret CORBETT born in Cranbourne
1878 Michael and Margaret marry Marg. age 15 Mich. age 21. This marriage confirmed on both death certs - no marriage has been found. Mich. Death cert says place Dandeong Marg.s says Cranbourne.
Margaret's children according to her death cert
Confirmed on Michaels death cert
1880 Cornelius
1881 Richard
1883 Mary
1886 Margaret
1887 Michael mentioned in South Bourke and Mornington Journal
1893 Married Sydney Woodland (according to her death cert)
1894 Ada born
1896 Sydney born
I am now trying to find when Michael left Cranbourne. I presume he went to his family in Yarram.
Red post: No MJ nomention of marital status
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Red post: No MJ nomention of marital status
:'( I thought I had found a possible way to jump the hurdle .... :'(
Cheers, JM :'( :'(
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1893 - 1886 = 7 years...
Enjoy the read for Colonial divorce matters in that era at this link
http://www.aifs.gov.au/institute/seminars/finlay.html
Cheers, JM
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Wow MJ - I had just come to the same conclusion.
It looks as if the legalities are being followed - I just cant find either marriage :-\
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I don't think Margaret was formally married to Ada's Dad when registering Ada's birth ..... :)
Cheers, JM
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I think the "R" on the index for Ada's birth is the revision of Margaret's birth surname on the document
(see the next reply, as I could not get the quote to go into this post ::) )
Cheers, JM with a senior moment at hand.... :-[
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I could be way off track, I am not Vic centric :-X
I can't see either of them YET up until 1901. I can check the later indexes if you want :-\
BUT I did notice Ada's birth ::)
CORBETT Ada Woodland b. 1894 CRANBOURNE #19835R
Father: Unknown
Mother: Margt CORBEN
MOORE Ada Woodland b. 1894 CRANBOURNE #19835R
Father: Unknown
Mother: Margt CORBETT
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JM - I think you are spot on about the R on Ada's certificate
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Ted,
At which CEMETERY is Michael Joseph MOORE buried?
Have you searched for another buried with him?
Sue
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Sue - it looked like "Government Cemetery" but after googling it it is actually Greenmount Cemetery Yarram
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Have sent PM regarding the name and address to contact for a lookup at that cemetery.
Sue
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Headstones at Greenmount Cemetery - nothing for Michael Joseph MOORE.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0vg9/
Cando :)
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Thanks Cando
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Thanks Cando
I would still be contacting the Trust.
The register will show double interments and those which are adjacent and may give some clue to marital status.
Sue
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May I ask what cemetery index and which death index?
Cando
Australia Death Index, 1787-1985
Australia Cemetery Index, 1808-2007
You find many death in Victoria in the Australian Cemetery Index for which there is no corresponding entry on the Australian Death Index which includes Victorian deaths.
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I think the "R" on the index for Ada's birth is the revision of Margaret's birth surname on the document
There is no revision of Margaret's birth surname on the document. The revision is the crossing out of the details of Margaret's marriage to Moore.
But R in the Victorian Indexes does not stand for Revision. For example I am looking right now at a certificate for Agnes Louisa Johnson born 5 May 1893 in Bendigo Victoria. The certificate was revised in April 1894 after a court case established that Agnes Louisa's mother Louisa Johnstone was not married to the man that she had said was Agnes Louisa's father. The revision crossed out the name and details of the father, the details that had been given of a marriage (the details were ficticious), and the "Clingam formerly" in the middle of "Louisa Clingham formerly Johnstone". This is a distinct revision, but the index number is 10062, not 10062R.
R in the Victorian indexes stands for Repeat, and is used for when a child is born illegitimately to a woman who is either married or widowed. The birth is shown twice on the index, as in Ada's case once under the mother's married surname, and the second time under the mother's maiden surname. The surname of the child is not shown on the certificate, and as this child is illegitimate (in this case with no father named), she is shown twice on the index under both the surnames that her mother has used. Another example is Fanny Gladys Hughan/Campbell who was born on 2 Nov 1904. As her mother is shown as Elizabeth Hughan formerly Campbell, and as Fanny was born illegitimately, her birth is shown twice on the index, once under Hughan and once under Campbell. (In this case the father was named, George Walter Butler, and he even registered the birth, but his surname is not used, and he is not shown as the father in the index.) The index for Fanny's birth uses the number 27481R. There is no revision of any type on her birth registration.
The R is used ONLY to the index. If you go onto the BDM VIC web-site and try to order a copy of the certificate and include the R you will get an error that the index number does not exist.
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May I butt in again ….. Well I will, anyways
I understand that those two indexes are available at Ancestry as part of the subscription members of Ancestry pay.
I have read:
Australia Cemetery Index, 1808-2007
“This database is a conglomeration of several different sources. Records were primarily compiled by local family history groups or societies. ……”
Australia Death Index, 1787-1985
“Original data: Compiled from publicly available sources”
“While these collections make up some of the most important indexes of early Australian death records, they are not necessarily 100 percent complete—compliance to registration laws, of course, varied, and Australia’s vast distances complicated most any record-keeping effort. In this collection records are available for the following span of years:
New South Wales — 1788-1945
Northern Territory — 1870-1913
Queensland — 1929-1959
South Australia — 1842-1970
Tasmania — 1803-1919
Victoria — 1836-1985
Western Australia — 1841-1980”
On the other hand, the Resources Boards for each of our States & Territories here at RChat, provide fantastic links to various BDMs and to cemeteries and often to the very indexes that seem to be Ancestry’s publicly available sources….
Cheers, JM
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The index for Ada's birth, with no father being named in the index, clearly shows that Ada's birth was considered to be illegitimate by the registrar who recorded the details:
Corbett, Ada Woodland
Father: Corbett
Mother: Margt Corben(sic)
1894
Cranborne
#19835R
Moore, Ada Woodland
Father: Moore
Mother: Margt Corbett
Cranborne
#19835R
The actual birth registration shows other clues that you may be able to use. This is because the birth registration gives a date and place for Margaret's marriage to Michael Moore.
When and where born:
28th May 1894
Langmarine
Shire of Cranborne
County of Mornington
Name and whether present of not:
Ada Woodland
not present
(Note: no surnames recorded in this column)
Sex:
Female
Name & Profession of Father, Age & birthplace of Father:
Illegitimate
When & where married, Issue Living & deceased (of this marriage):
8th January 1879, Sherwood
(Note: Just days before Margaret's 16th birthday)
Cornelius 14
Richard 13
Mary 11
Maggie 9
(Note: Sydney Walter not listed as he is not a child of this marriage)
THIS SECTION THEN CROSSED OUT AND WRITTEN ACROSS IT:
Cancelled, Illegitimate
Name and maiden surname of Mother, Age & birthplace of Mother:
Margaret Moore nee Corbett
31 years, Sherwood
Signature, descriptive & address of Informant:
Margaret Moore
mother
Somerville
after declaration made as by law required*
Witness of birth:
Mrs Wiltshire
When & where registered:
21st August 1894, Cranborne
Signature of Deputy Register:
M Duff
acting registrar
I think the "R" on the index for Ada's birth is the revision of Margaret's birth surname on the document
There is no revision of Margaret's birth surname on the document. The revision is the crossing out of the details of Margaret's marriage to Moore.
But R in the Victorian Indexes does not stand for Revision.
This is not making good sense to me at all, sorry.
Cheers, JM
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I think the "R" on the index for Ada's birth is the revision of Margaret's birth surname on the document
(In this case the father was named, George Walter Butler, and he even registered the birth, but his surname is not used, and he is not shown as the father in the index.) The index for Fanny's birth uses the number 27481R. There is no revision of any type on her birth registration.
The R is used ONLY to the index. If you go onto the BDM VIC web-site and try to order a copy of the certificate and include the R you will get an error that the index number does not exist.
Just for information
From Vic BDM
BUTLER Fanny Gladys
1904 Melb West
Father: Geo Walter Mother: Elizth Campbell
Reg# 27481R
Raylen
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and May I butt in again ….. Well I will, anyways
I understand that those two indexes are available at Ancestry as part of the subscription members of Ancestry pay.
I hope these two links work
http://search.ancestry.com.au/search/db.aspx?dbid=1779
http://search.ancestry.com.au/search/db.aspx?dbid=1266
Cheers, JM
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Perhaps an email asking Vic BDM what "R" represents.... would be sensible :)
Cheers, JM
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Just for information
From Vic BDM
BUTLER Fanny Gladys
1904 Melb West
Father: Geo Walter Mother: Elizth Campbell
Reg# 27481R
Thanks Raylen, I had missed this entry on the index. So her birth is shown on the index 3 times, once under Campell with no father named, once under Hughan with no father named, and once under Butler with her father named, and each time with the R added to the index number.
Just to reiterate - there is NO revision of any type on Fanny's birth registration.
Perhaps an email asking Vic BDM what "R" represents.... would be sensible :)
The R is ONLY on the index - it is not to do with Vic BDM. Again if you try to order the certificate from Vic BDM using the R you will only get an error. Vic BDM do not use the R.
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I sent off to them a couple of days ago to ask the very same question, JM ;D No reply as yet!
As was stated previously (perhaps on another thread) there is no legal requirement to use a particular surname at all, and this should be remembered especially when looking at historic certificates. An informant did not have to supply any form of documentation to prove who s/he was, nor to prove any other piece of information given to the registrar.
I have also asked Vic BMDs how and when the indexes were compiled as we have all seen mistranscriptions, sometimes very peculiar ones, at that. It is my understanding that indexers had no list of approved abbreviations for place names which is why many of them are difficult to figure out and why there may be more than one abbreviation for the same place.
EDIT to add: this comment does not apply to this thread really but I often see information which assumes that, because a registration was done in a particular place that the actual B, M or D happened in that place. I have in mind a woman who died in Newtown NSW but her death registration (and subsequent burial) took place on the South Coast.
Judith
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majm I am not sure if you make me squirm or laugh nervously :) as I always have to dot my "i"s and cross my "t"s.
I will try to explain it more fully. On the index an illegitimate birth to a woman who is married or widowed is shown 2 (or more) times with an R. In each instance the mother will be shown with her maiden surname. The child will be shown with the mother's married surname and the mother's maiden surname and no father named. If a father's name is recorded on the birth regiostration, as Raylen has just demonstrated, the child will be shown a 3rd time with the father's surname, and the father named. There is no surname recorded for the child on the birth registration.
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Thanks Judith :)
I am NSW centric, and I know that the various NSW BDM online indexes come from the initial work of volunteers back in the 1930s who were working with a partial index made by NSW BDM clerks in around 1912-1914. I know this simply because I was told this directly by one of the 1930s volunteers whose father was one of those 1912-1914 clerks. The 1912-1914 clerk was of course my late Grandfather, who obtained release from there to become a clerk at Base Records for our AIF personnel. I have also had many conversations with NSW BDM senior managers in the 1970s who confirmed the information, (again, these chaps are my relatives, retiring from NSW BDM in the 1980s) and earlier with SAG senior members who were involved in the 1930s efforts by my late uncle.
I have very little practical knowledge of the Vic BDM indexes but I think it is fair to presume similar volunteer efforts are behind the initial Pioneer/Federation Indexes..... :)
Cheers, JM
http://www.bdm.vic.gov.au/home/family+history/search+your+family+history/family+history+search+guide/
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Hi Judith,
Maybe when you get a reply it will be clearer than I will try to explain :-\
I just phoned Vic BDM and was told that in the case on this thread,
Campbell/Hughan/Butler, It would be indexed 3 times because the mother
used 3 different surnames on the registration. In this case the "R" = multiple entries.
Where there is a registration number, eg 1234 and another 1234R, this would indicate
that there is an error either in the reading of the actual registration or a
error when entering the information from the registration. They had no provision
to amend an entry once it had been keyed in so the alteration was coded with the "R"
Is that as clear as mud??? ;D
Raylen
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When & where married, Issue Living & deceased (of this marriage):
8th January 1879, Sherwood
(Note: Just days before Margaret's 16th birthday)
Cornelius 14
Richard 13
Mary 11
Maggie 9
(Note: Sydney Walter not listed as he is not a child of this marriage)
THIS SECTION THEN CROSSED OUT AND WRITTEN ACROSS IT:
Cancelled, Illegitimate
What is shown above is EXACTLY what I meant when I wrote:
The revision is the crossing out of the details of Margaret's marriage to Moore.
~I must learn to try to communicate better.~
There is no revision of Margaret's birth surname on the document.
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So in no case if I have understood you correctly Raylen does R = revision. It either means multiple entries (Repeat) or a revision of the index (when both say 1234R and 1234) from a previous transcription error or a previous error of information entry.
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I understand that those two indexes are available at Ancestry as part of the subscription members of Ancestry pay.
Australia Death Index, 1787-1985
Australia Cemetery Index, 1808-2007
I am very sorry JM but I am unsure of the meaning of what you were trying to say.
Yes these two indexes may be incomplete in that they may not include every death record in Victoria, but they do include many many of the deaths records in Victoria. I use the first index all the time to order death registrations of Vic BDM as it gives the index number. So much better then paying $1 a time to do a search for the index number on Vic BDM itself. With the second index I find many deaths that do not appear on the first.
Then of course there are the many deaths that do not appear on either index, and that those on rootschat who have access to even better indexes than these cannot find a death record for either. The missing deaths that cause so many headaches...
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So in no case if I have understood you correctly Raylen does R = revision. It either means multiple entries (Repeat) or a revision of the index (when both say 1234R and 1234) from a previous transcription error or a previous error of information entry.
R could well = repeat.
I think the "R" on the index for Ada's birth is the revision of Margaret's birth surname on the document
Cheers, JM
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I think the "R" on the index for Ada's birth is the revision of Margaret's birth surname on the document
There is no revision of Margaret's birth surname on the document.
There is, however, a transcription error in the index for Margaret's birth surname - Corbett and Corben.
I have provided a full transcription of the birth registration previously.
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Thanks, Raylen. That's what I thought. I guess the point I was making is that indexes are just summaries and that the information in the actual registration may be reflected (or not!) on the indexes.
Then there is the overlay of the Australian Death Index on Ancestry which, again, may or may not include correct information and certainly has many missing. It's a wonder we manage, between us, to find so many BMDs! :D
Judith
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I understand that those two indexes are available at Ancestry as part of the subscription members of Ancestry pay.
Australia Death Index, 1787-1985
Australia Cemetery Index, 1808-2007
I am very sorry JM but I am unsure of the meaning of what you were trying to say.
Yes these two indexes may be incomplete in that they may not include every death record in Victoria, but they do include many many of the deaths records in Victoria. I use the first index all the time to order death registrations of Vic BDM as it gives the index number. So much better then paying $1 a time to do a search for the index number on Vic BDM itself. With the second index I find many deaths that do not appear on the first.
Then of course there are the many deaths that do not appear on either index, and that those on rootschat who have access to even better indexes than these cannot find a death record for either. The missing deaths that cause so many headaches...
Simply put, I am noting that the two indexes you provided as an answer to a question posed by another RChatter are sourced from Ancestry. I chose to do this so that other RChatters reading the thread do not need to duplicate each others efforts.
May I ask what cemetery index and which death index?
Cando
Australia Death Index, 1787-1985
Australia Cemetery Index, 1808-2007
You find many death in Victoria in the Australian Cemetery Index for which there is no corresponding entry on the Australian Death Index which includes Victorian deaths.
Cheers, JM
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Mmmm... will my sense of humour be appreciated, or will I hear the sighs from afar...
So if the transcription error in the following
Corbett, Ada Woodland
Father: Corbett
Mother: Margt Corben
1894
Cranborne
#19835R
was ever fixed to read
Corbett, Ada Woodland
Father: Corbett
Mother: Margt Corbett
1894
Cranborne
#19835R
does that mean that the index number would become 19835RR? (First R for Repeat, and second R for revision of a transcription error.)
~Ducking for cover~
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Margaret Mary CORBETT was born in 1863 in Cranbourne Victoria. On her death certificate dated 13 June 1932 (in the name of Margaret Mary WOODLAND) she has 2 marriages.
1st marriage to Michael MOORE at age 15 in Cranbourne - they had 4 children the youngest is Margaret aged 47.
2nd marriage is to Syndey WOODLAND at age 30 years in Cranbourne - they had 2 children the eldest was Ada age 36.
The person who registered the death was an authorised agent.
I cannot find a marriage between Michael MOORE AND Margaret Mary and I cannnot find a death for Michael MOORE.
I hope someone can help me find this information. Thanks in advance, cheers Ted
I have been in touch with Ted and suggested where she should look for the parish record for Margaret's first marriage.
Teinname. The suffix R was explained on another thread in which you were involved and you would have surely read the explanation. The thread is no longer available as it was reported to a moderator for reasons I will not repeat here and for breach of copyright.
Perhaps we should allow Ted to post again if she requires further help with this family.
Cando
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in which you were involved and you would have surely read the explanation.
Incorrect assumption.
The thread is no longer available
No longer available means that whatever information it contained is no longer accessable.
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Cool it everyone :)
Family history is supposed to be interesting and fun :). It's a pastime ... hmm well maybe an addiction ;D
We all make mistakes, miss things, repeat things and other assorted errors (yes mostly me ::) )
Not worth getting our knickers in a twist over ... ;D
cheers,
Ros
Now let's get back on track :)
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Thanks for trying to find a marriage for Michael and Margaret. On Michael's death certificate his sister Mary, who was the informant, gave Dandenong as Michael's place of marriage, Hopefully I'll find the marriage and the children's baptisms in the parish registers of St Mary's Roman Catholic Church at Dandenong.
I will let you know if I have any success. I don't need any further help with the family at this time.
Cheers, Ted
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Curious Ted, why would you choose Dandenong based on information given by a third party on a death certificate when first party information is different?
Michael Moore stated in 1880 on Cornelius's birth registration that the marriage was on 8 Jan 1879 at Cranbourne.
Margaret Corbett stated in 1894 on Ada's birth registration that the marriage was on 8 Jan 1879 at Sherwood (part of Cranbourne).
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Hi Ted,
Perhaps you intend to mark this thread COMPLETED (for now anyway), but just before you do, I would like to recommend this as interesting reading.
http://www.casey.vic.gov.au/history/hoh/04%20Religion.pdf
Sue
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Sue thank you for the link. Fascinating reading.
I am not sure how to mark the thread COMPLETED as we can no longer modify our posts. :'(
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Hi Ted,
How to mark a Post "COMPLETED" http://www.rootschat.com/help/faqs.php#completed
If the topic is completed within 24 hours of the initial post, please use the "Modify" button to add the word *COMPLETED* to the titles of your first and last posts on the topic.
Otherwise, please use the "Report to Moderator" button on the topic and send a message stating the board name and "Completed".
cheers :)
cupoflife