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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: kk26 on Wednesday 17 July 13 19:18 BST (UK)
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Have transcribed an entire marriage document except for what the maiden name is of my GGG-Grandmother. The marriage record is from Edinburgh, Scotland, 1861
Left column is residence: No 13 Blackfriars Wynd Edinburgh
Right column are the groom's parents: Laurence Keenan Labourer deceased and Margaret Keenan MS ????? also deceased.
I would appreciate any assistance with the maiden surname.
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Hi kk26 and welcome :D
My first thought for Margaret's maiden name was 'Ottery'.
Alexander
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Thanks for your input Alexander. The best I could guess was O'Wery which is close to Ottery so maybe we're on the right track. Will try searching with Ottery - thanks again.
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Welcome from me, too. :)
I've been looking at this since last night but didn't like to say. Is there any chance it could it be Avery ? :-\
Would you have access to a larger snip, please ?
Pels.
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Margaret Keenan MS ????? also deceased.
Normally M.S. means Man or Male Servant and you would find F.S. for Female Servant but, seeing as Margaret was obviously female!, would say that in this case it probably meant Maid Servant.
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Normally M.S. means Man or Male Servant and you would find F.S. for Female Servant but, seeing as Margaret was obviously female!, would say that in this case it probably meant Maid Servant.
Wasn't it the surname that was in question ?
Pels.
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Normally M.S. means Man or Male Servant and you would find F.S. for Female Servant but, seeing as Margaret was obviously female!, would say that in this case it probably meant Maid Servant.
Wasn't it the surname that was in question ?
Pels.
I believe it was, Pels :D Also, as it's a Scottish Marriage Cert, M.S. means Maiden Surname. It could be Overy or Avery but it is very difficult. Did he die in Scotland - death cert might be clearer.
Gadget
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Margaret Keenan MS ????? also deceased.
Normally M.S. means Man or Male Servant and you would find F.S. for Female Servant but, seeing as Margaret was obviously female!, would say that in this case it probably meant Maid Servant.
On Scottish marriage certs it always gives your parents names,and lists the mother as MS which sttands for Maiden Surname. ;D
Carol
SNAP Gadget ;)
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Just looked at the whole page and the Registrar's As are A and not a large lowercase a - so O... or even a Cl ..... :-\
Gadget
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Just looked at the whole page and the Registrar's As are A and not a large lowercase a - so O... or even a Cl ..... :-\
Gadget
Oh well !! That bangs that theory on the head, thanks Gadget ! :) :)
Pels.
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Thanks to all trying to help with this. Hopefully this snip will appear larger. Am I allowed to show more of the record's info to allow for a better handwriting sampling? The record is from Scotlandspeople.gov.uk - Crown Copyright.
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If the word under Blackfriars is Wynd,then I would suggest that the MS begins with a W ?
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If the word under Blackfriars is Wynd,then I would suggest that the MS begins with a W ?
We aren't always like this, kk26 !! :D
We'll use the heat as an excuse, Carol !! ;D ;D ;D
Pels.
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If the word under Blackfriars is Wynd,then I would suggest that the MS begins with a W ?
I believe there is a "W", but looks like there is a single letter before the "W". Maybe it's a slip of the pen?
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I was just going to put up a snip of the Ws - it could be a W or an I or O followed by a v. Can we agree that it's ?ery'
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Can we agree that it's ?ery'
Yes ! :) :)
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Can we agree that it's ?ery
Yes!
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Happy to defer to those who know better, but might it be Avery?
Drosybont
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Join the club, Drosybont ;D
I think at least 2 of us have suggested that. However the capital As on the rest of the page are not like that :-\
kk26 - do you have any info of Patrick later on that might help us to check on other records - death, etc.
Gadget
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I have some records but none with his parents names. So far I have him emigrating from Ireland to Scotland between 1854 and 1857 based on birth dates and records of his children. The family is in the Scotland 1861 census. Found many Scotland birth and death records of children and death of his first wife (Mary Boylan; married in Ireland). This 1861 re-marriage is just months after the death of his first wife. It is the only record I have found that mentions his parents. I have lost him as of 1864 in Scotland. His tenement was torn down on Blackfriars Wynd about 1868. No more BMD records and have not found him in the 1871 census. I keep looking for a death record for him but no luck yet. There are many Patrick Keenan's in the 1871 census, but I find that the ages, children and wives do not match well. At a brick wall with Patrick and his ancestors. Just searching for Laurence has not been of any help yet.
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Can we agree that it's ?ery'
I'm not convinced that the last letter is a 'y' - or that it is a letter at all - perhaps just a flourish after the 'r', or an 's' going below the line?
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I don't think it's a flourish
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I just did a quick search on ancestry.com for Iwery. So many different versions of the phonetic pronunciation! Iwery, Iorry, Irey, Iorway, Iry, Irohey. :P I fear this requires widening my search. And it looks so simple a name with only 5 characters!
Avery is popular for England but when I search for Ireland it produces a lot of Lavery's.
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I even had a look on RootsIreland :-X
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:)Thanks to each of you for your help today. I was hoping for some extra opinions and you all came through for me. Going forward, will work with ?wery and phonetic versions of this. Have attached a few handwriting examples from the document page to back this up. The "ew" in Andrew, the "ow" in Cowgate make me think the maiden surname has a "w" for the second letter. The first letter could be a vowel such as capital "O" or "I".
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After looking at this and seeing all sorts of possibilities, one thought suddenly suggested Owens .
Liz
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I can see it, Liz! Look at this new snip. It says "After banns according to the forms of the Catholic church". Look at the "ns" of banns and the "ms" of forms. Very similar to the maiden surname! Definitely could be an "ns" making it Owens!
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That looks good, Liz :D
kk26 - did Patrick marry Mary Boylan 1842 in Co Monaghan?
Gadget
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Hi Gadget, and thanks for the tip. Funny you should ask that question. You must have found the Rootsireland marriage record. Yes, Mary Boylan is his wife. Their child Luke's birth record of 1861 (Scotland) indicates Mary and Patrick's marriage as "Kilmore, Ireland" on 10NOV1844 (see snip). I have been using that date and trying to get a 2nd source for years. However, get this, only a few days ago I, too, was on Rootsireland and found the 27OCT1842 transcribed record from Kilmore parish Monaghan. Now what do I do? :-\ I guess I should switch to the date on the church record. Wish I could see the original document for myself.
The church record dated 1842 does not indicate parents, so no help with Margaret's maiden surname, but does include witnesses and the reverend's name. Might get me a step closer in finding the church and townland in Kilmore parish and ultimately a copy of the original record some day.
kk26
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Hi
Could it be 'Clvery' which surprisingly does exist as a Google search has just shown
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Hi kk
Think I'd go wth the Church record - I've seen quite a few errors on dates of marriage on the Scottish birth certs - some have different places and dates with each child ;D
I've been working around Patrick's family as I can't see anything before his marriage to Mary.
The witnesses on his marriage to Ann were John Sherry and Catherine O'Brien/Brian. They are married* and, on the 1881, John was born Co Monaghan (circa 1827 -varies between censuses) and Catherine was born Edinburgh. They were already married and living Cowgate in 1841.
Maybe there wasn't any family connection but it might be worth checking on them.
Wonder if Patrick had any siblings?
I couldn't find a death in Scotland :(
Gadget
* confirmed by son's birth record.
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Hi
Could it be 'Clvery' which surprisingly does exist as a Google search has just shown
Thanks, I will certainly do some searches and try it out. Although, the C's in the document consistently have a loop at the bottom. For your review, the attachment has three C's.