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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Leanne. on Thursday 04 July 13 15:07 BST (UK)
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I am trying to find someones parents, I am stuck. I have his marriage certificate but his parents aren't listed on it. Is there any other way to find out the information?
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What's the date of the marriage?
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August 1884
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Hello Leanne and welcome to Rootschat :)
You will never find 'parents' named on a marriage cert,but usually you'll get the bride and groom's fathers names and occupation.
What is the name of this person and we'll see if we can find them.
Have you found the couple after marriage,with kids on the censuses.
Sometimes witnesses can be a big clue in finding the family,they are often siblings of the couple.
Carol
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Welcome Leanne :)
Another question - did the marriage take place in England/Wales or elsewhere? I see you have Australian, Scottish and French connections too.
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My first step would be to try to track him both forwards and then backwards in the census. I would look across all years, to see how consistently his age and birthplace are recorded. If you can find him going backwards (earlier) you would expect him to be with parents. Later you are looking for him and wife, whose name you know. And if you get lucky, he may have parent(s) living with him later. Probably best to look after marriage first, so stated birthplace gives some idea of where to look for him in the earlier years.
To some extent it depends on how common a name and whether it is rural or town. Uncommon names in rural locations are easiest, common names in a big town can be problematic.
If you get a good handle on place and probable date of birth, next steps are (1) birth registrations and (2) parish records. But for an 1884 marriage, implying a first guess at birth around 1860, he may or may not have been christened.
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Hi Leanne and Welcome
Carol is correct for Eng & Wales certs Sept 1837 onwards:
You will never find 'parents' named on a marriage cert,but usually you'll get the bride and groom's fathers names and occupation.
However, I note that you have some Scottish ancestry and if this is a Scottish marriage cert of 1855 onwards, both parents names will normally be listed as long as the person knows their names!
Are you able to follow them on censuses and find where/when they were born?
Gadget
PS - I see some of this has now been covered by Anna and John!
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The certificate I have has a spot for fathers name and mothers name and maiden surname but that section is empty and so is the fathers occupation section.
These are the details from his marriage certificate
Adolphe Normand, Bachelor, Born France, age 24, occupation laborer
Marriage date 7th August 1884 ( This marriage was dissolved by decree of the supreme court 20 Nov 1894)
Married at Ryde NSW, Usual place of residence Field of Mars NSW
Wife : Elizabeth Mary ketley, Spinster, age 17, Born Pennant Hills NSW
In the presence of: Catherine Ketley and Hard to read this one but I think it's Gengi M Pope
I have the birth certificate of their first child ( born 12th June 1885) and Adolphe's name has changed to
Adolphus Norman, laborer, 25 years, born France
but the marriage date is listed as 6th August 1884
Informant: Elizabeth Mary Norman and she couldn't sign it, she didn't sign the marriage certificate either it just has an X and says her mark.
On her child's birth certificate it says witness to her mark, and again it's that Gengi M Pope
Witness: Mrs Ketly
Particulars of registration Gengi M Pope July 1885 Ryde.
It looks like who ever filled out the marriage cert is the same person that filled out the birth certificate, it looks like the same handwriting.
I think it might be that Gengi M Pope, cause the M in his name / signature looks the same as all the M in Field of Mars.
I found a criminal record for a Norman Adolphe, I didn't think it was him but some one told me it could be him because they use your last name first on the records, I found it in a police gazette.
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Ah so this is an Australian marriage,maybe it should be moved to the Australian board,where more people have the local knowledge that is needed here?
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Perhaps Adolphe had been orphaned/abandoned when young & brought up 'in care' so had never known his parents' names? If abandoned, could his surname indicate this was in Normandy?
Josey
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I am afraid this is getting way outside my experience. ( My only Australian connection is a guard on a convict ship who was in Australia for about 4 months in 1821!)
I'd still advocate looking at later census data to check age & birthplace, and hope I got something more specifc than "France". I have a horrible suspicion there will be many Adolphe Normands, even if we have a reasonably accurate birth range June 1859 / June 1860
Can someone with greater expertise advise if Australian immigration or passenger records might cast any light?
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Perhaps Adolphe had been orphaned/abandoned when young & brought up 'in care' so had never known his parents' names? If abandoned, could his surname indicate this was in Normandy?
Josey
Family keep telling me that Normand indicated where he came from.
I done a little bit of research and found that Normand is the french version of Norman.
Family said that there are a few different Norman's and depending on the ending of the name you can tell where they came from. Apparently they have a D or TY or TH on the end of Norman, it indicates their origin, but I haven't been able to find any research to prove that theory.
Online searches of Adolphus / Adolphe Normand always brings up lots and lots of info about Normandy.
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I am afraid this is getting way outside my experience. ( My only Australian connection is a guard on a convict ship who was in Australia for about 4 months in 1821!)
I'd still advocate looking at later census data to check age & birthplace, and hope I got something more specifc than "France". I have a horrible suspicion there will be many Adolphe Normands, even if we have a reasonably accurate birth range June 1859 / June 1860
Can someone with greater expertise advise if Australian immigration or passenger records might cast any light?
I haven't been able to find a death record for him in Australia. I did find one Adolphus Norman death record in Australia but family said it's not him.
I found an Adolphus Norman on a census I think it was from England and his birth place is listed as France, no other info.
He is married with some kids, I'm just not sure if it's him or not.
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When you say marriage was dissolved by Supreme Court in 1894, is that an English or Australian? court. Do its records give any clue to where he was then living?
Given divorce in 1894 it is possible he was separated a few years earlier - so census may or may not have him with wife / children.
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I'd still advocate looking at later census data to check age & birthplace, and hope I got something more specifc than "France". I have a horrible suspicion there will be many Adolphe Normands, even if we have a reasonably accurate birth range June 1859 / June 1860
Can someone with greater expertise advise if Australian immigration or passenger records might cast any light?
I didn't think any Australian censuses survived?
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Quote:
Family keep telling me that Normand indicated where he came from.
My thought was that abandoned/foundling babies are often given names indicating where they were found or something else relevant.
Josey
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When you say marriage was dissolved by Supreme Court in 1894, is that an English or Australian? court. Do its records give any clue to where he was then living?
Given divorce in 1894 it is possible he was separated a few years earlier - so census may or may not have him with wife / children.
Australia.
The marriage record say they were living in Field of Mars ( Now called Ryde ) NSW
Not sure where he was living after separation.
The police gazette records for Norman Adolphe show that he was convicted of Wife desertion in 1890 that makes me think that it's the same person. I'm thinking that he took off from his wife in 1890 and then she had to get the marriage dissolved so she could get married again.
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I'd still advocate looking at later census data to check age & birthplace, and hope I got something more specifc than "France". I have a horrible suspicion there will be many Adolphe Normands, even if we have a reasonably accurate birth range June 1859 / June 1860
Can someone with greater expertise advise if Australian immigration or passenger records might cast any light?
I didn't think any Australian censuses survived?
What happened to them?
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This is a very long shot ...
I tried familysearch for Adolphe Normand, born France 1855 to 1865. The only result that might have any relevance is a 1901 UK census entry for Adolphus Norman born France 1859, naturalised British subject, resident West Ham (then in Essex). I don't have census access, but if anyone here can pursue it ..
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I have found a newspaper article from The Sydney Morning Herald 21 Nov 1894
Decrees Absolute
Decrees Nisi were made absolute in the following :
Elizabeth Mary Norman v. Adolphe Norman ( with custody of children)
I have been wondering if that means that he got custody cause it's next to his name.
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This is a very long shot ...
I tried familysearch for Adolphe Normand, born France 1855 to 1865. The only result that might have any relevance is a 1901 UK census entry for Adolphus Norman born France 1859, naturalised British subject, resident West Ham (then in Essex). I don't have census access, but if anyone here can pursue it ..
I'll have a look, I think it might be the census that I mentioned earlier.
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I didn't think any Australian censuses survived?
What happened to them?
They were destroyed between 1971 and 1996 due to lack of storage facilities.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Census_in_Australia
They extracted the info they needed from them such as population info and growth etc .
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Yeah it's the same one, I have saved to my shoebox on ancestry.
It says born france ( Nat. British subject) - What does that mean?
Adolphus Norman
Age: 42
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1859
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Annie Norman
Gender: Male
Where born: France
Adolphus Norman 42
Annie Norman 34
Grace Norman 8
Ethel Norman 6
Lilian Norman 4
John Norman 2
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Can anyone work out what the occupation is
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FreeBMD has
Adolphus James Norman died West Ham died 1891 aged 0 birth registerd same quarter.
Adolphus Norman died West Ham 1930 aged 71.
Too many Normans in West Ham to see from BMD if any other children.
Also try 1911 UK census?
If this were mine, I would see if there is a more detailed record of the court proceedings. For there to be any chance the West Ham man is yours, you would need evidence he had deserted her before 1891.
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I found him the 1911 Census
Name: Adolphus Norman
Age in 1911: 52
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1859
Relation to Head: Head
Gender: Male
Birth Place: France
Civil Parish: West Ham
County/Island: Essex
Country: England
Adolphus Norman 52
Annie Norman 43
Lilian Norman 15
Herbert Norman 12
Griffin Figwell 22 ( Boarder)
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Adolphus Norman Bachelor occ Mariner Age 27
Annie Elizabeth Edgecombe Age 22
Married 20 March 1889
Haggerston St Mary
Groom Father Adolphus Norman occ Seaman
Spouse Father James Edgecombe
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Adolphus Norman Bachelor occ Mariner Age 27
Annie Elizabeth Edgecombe Age 22
Married 20 March 1889
Haggerston St Mary
Groom Father Adolphus Norman occ Seaman
Spouse Father James Edgecombe
Are you a bachelor if you have been married before ?
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Can anyone work out what the occupation is
Stoker malt works
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Adolphus Norman Bachelor occ Mariner Age 27
Annie Elizabeth Edgecombe Age 22
Married 20 March 1889
Haggerston St Mary
Groom Father Adolphus Norman occ Seaman
Spouse Father James Edgecombe
Are you a bachelor if you have been married before ?
No one would check - he could say what he liked ::)
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Adolphus Norman Bachelor occ Mariner Age 27
Annie Elizabeth Edgecombe Age 22
Married 20 March 1889
Haggerston St Mary
Groom Father Adolphus Norman occ Seaman
Spouse Father James Edgecombe
Are you a bachelor if you have been married before ?
No one would check - he could say what he liked ::)
But technically? Are divorced men given another title ?
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If it is the same guy, and the same guy from the gaol books ( 3 convictions wife desertion, counterfeit coins, travel on ship without paying)
He doesn't seem like an honest man, and on the 1911 census his boarder's occupation is police officer hahaha wonder how he felt about that. Maybe he changed his ways when he left Australia.
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1901 census Stoker [] Works.
BUT just found a potential spaner in the works from Free BMD
Adolphus Norman married Shoreditch Jan - Mar 1889. There in an Annie Edgecombe on same page.
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Adolphus Norman Bachelor occ Mariner Age 27
Annie Elizabeth Edgecombe Age 22
Married 20 March 1889
Haggerston St Mary
Groom Father Adolphus Norman occ Seaman
Spouse Father James Edgecombe
Are you a bachelor if you have been married before ?
No one would check - he could say what he liked ::)
But technically? Are divorced men given another title ?
I don't think so :-\ I have a marriage cert for a divorced woman which says 'previously married' but that was 100 years after the one above
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If he got married again 1889, does that mean it couldn't be him.
His record :
Wife desertion when and where - Ryde oct 1 1890 - fine 2 pound 15 or 12 months
Counterfeit coins when and where - Parramatta July 6 1892 - 2 years
Travel by boat without paying, Newcastle, June 27 1898 - 7 days
That is of course if this record for Norman Adolphe, is actually for Adolphe Norman.
Family tells me gaol books use last name first but I'm not too sure. It doesn't say Norman, Adolphe. Just Norman Adolphe.
But birth place is listed as France but it looks like it says Frauel but other people assure me it says France.
Born: 1858
Arrived : 1868 - Ship - Alexander ?
occupation : Farmer.
Some things are the same but some aren't and I don't really have any proof, there is a photo of him on the record and I showed it to family but they have never seen a photo of him, but some think he has family features.
Do you think birthplace is france ?
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I have looked for other records for a Norman Adolphe but can't find him anywhere, only in the gaol records and police gazette books, and newspaper articles about his crimes.
I found Adolphus Norman in someone else's tree from Australia and they have a shipping record for him coming to Australia but all it says is A Norman arrived on the Sorata, born france, arrived from the port of London.
A Norman could be anyone, plus when he got married here his name was Normand, wouldn't Normand be on his shipping record.
And the date is 11th Aug 1884, but he got married in Australia on the 7th Aug 1884
Someone has added this record to their tree and other people have seen it and copied it, I have found it in 5 or more trees. I was going to add it but then I looked at the dates and realised it couldn't be him plus the Normand / Norman thing.
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YOUR Adolphe Norman was:
(1) NOT the person in the gaol record. That man's name was Norman Adolphus which is evident by looking at thge pages before and after his. The record was in the order of first name followed by surname. This man, born in France in 1858 and immigrating with his family at the age of 10 in 1868 is NOT your man. That this other man deserted his wife as did your man is a co-incidence.
(2) NOT the A. Norman who immigrated as A.Norman on the "Sorata" on 11 August 1884. As you stated he cannot be both at sea travelling towards Australia and being married in NSW at the same time. There was another A.Norman from France who came into Sydney from San Francisco on 28 Aug 1822 on the "Townsend" at the age of 25 but there is no way to know if he is your man.
(3) NOT the man in England in 1901 and 1911. This man has a wife and children and his demongraphics do not fit your man.
This does not help find anything on your man, just eliminates the men who are not yours.
The spelling of your man's first name as both Adolphus and Adolphe, and his surname as both Normand and Norman? Forms were filled in by the clerk, not by the individual. Many spellings were used based on what the clerk heard.
"Elizabeth Mary Norman v. Adolphe Norman (with custody of children)" just means custody of the children formed a part of the case.
The surname Norman does not suggest where your man came from in France. Although he may have been born in Normandy, he just as easily may not have been. His surname doed not indicate his place of birth. Norman or Normand is a common surname, and is a surname originally based on a place name just like the surnames of London, Stratford, York, etc.
That your man did not provide details of his parents when he married suggests that he did not know who his parents were. For example he may have been raised as an orphan. That he did not know who his parents were is going to make it extremely hard, if not impossible, for you to find them.
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I found him the 1911 Census
Name: Adolphus Norman
Age in 1911: 52
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1859
Relation to Head: Head
Gender: Male
Birth Place: France
Civil Parish: West Ham
County/Island: Essex
Country: England
Adolphus Norman 52
Annie Norman 43
Lilian Norman 15
Herbert Norman 12
Griffin Figwell 22 ( Boarder)
That's in England ;D ;D ;D
I didn't realise that they lived over here !!!
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This has reached the stage where I would be inclined to sit down with a (large) sheet of paper and start writing down each possible Adolphus Norman / Norman Adolphe with the related facts for each person and then trying to see what if anything links the various people.
I'm of the opinion that the 1884 marriage / 1885 christening / 1894 divorce do link to the same man. Call him A.
We then appear to have 2 immigration dates - B in 1868 on Alexander ( from the convict record), C in 1884 on Sarota. Dates indicate C and A are distinct. But dates have been known to be wrong. I would wish to double check Sarota arrival date.
B is also associated with events in 1890 / 1892 / 1898. The 1890 desertion case and 1894 divorce hint there may be a link. The geography is not wrong. ( That is deliberately phrased that way !) But it needs much more than that to prove anything.
Then there is D arrived on Townsend ( is selkcerf0142's 1822 a typo for 1882?)
Next E from the UK 1901 / 1911 census. GIven a UK mariage in 1889 and child born 1899ish we have to say he is separate.
And finally F your Australian burial record. What more is known about him? Does any of it fit with any of the above?
You also need to think about the lack of any other Norman Adolphe data. Strictly one cannot draw any conclusions from that - it merely means no relevant data has been found.
I would also start to test all "the family say that" statements. This is something of a tangle, with a potentially fairly slippery subject.
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is selkcerf0142's 1822 a typo for 1882?
Yeap ::)
B in 1868 on Alexander ( from the convict record), C in 1884 on Sarota
You have forgotten A.Norman from France who came into Sydney from San Francisco on 28 Aug 1882 on the "Townsend" at the age of 25.
Date of arrival of the steam-ship "Sorata" IN SYDNEY via Adelide and Melbourne.
"The Orient Company's R.M.S. Sorata arrived yesterday from London. She entered the heads at 9.40 a.m., and after being passed by the port heath officer, was berthed at Circular Quay at 11 o'clock."
Sydney Morning Herald, 11 Aug 1884.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/28367999
In other words the date of arrival in Sydney was 10 August 1884.
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I have found a newspaper article from The Sydney Morning Herald 21 Nov 1894
Decrees Absolute
Decrees Nisi were made absolute in the following :
Elizabeth Mary Norman v. Adolphe Norman ( with custody of children)
A copy of the divorce file can be a wealth of information including documents such as:-
petitions for the dissolution of marriage
affidavits (sworn statements)
petitions for maintenance
marriage certificates
decrees nisi
decrees absolute
correspondence
Divorce No: 1465
Year: 1894
Name: NORMAN Elizabeth Mary
Respondent: NORMAN Adolphe
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0v53/
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I know I said in an earlier post that Adolphe Norman who married in August 1884 and Norman Adolphe who had a gaol record could not be the same man, but now I am not so sure.
The Norman Adolphe of the gaol description book is mentioned a number of times in the New South Wales Police Gazettes in the period 1890-1897. He was well known to the police, and spend periods in gaol. He is always shown as Norman Adolphe in these records with Norman as his first name and Adolphe was his surname. But could he have reverted his first name and surname for his marriage and his life with his wife? (Or perhaps the police dealings was the reversion.) Could this man have been the Adolphe Norman who married in Ryde on 7 August 1884, fathered a child with the surname of Norman in 1885, and was sued for divorce through the courts in 1894 as Adolphe Norman?
The Norman Adolphe who had dealings with the police was:
(1) arrested for the offence of passing a cointerfeit coin to Catherine Hiney, in May 1890 [14 May 1890 Police Gazette] as a result of which he was tried in Sydney, and he was found not guilty.
Coining at Carlingfford.
NORMAN ADOLPHE Of Carlingford, pleaded not guilty at the Quarter Sessions on Wednesday to a charge of passing a counterfeit shilling on Catherine Hiney, landlady of the Eastwood Hotel, Ryde. Adolphe had been iving in Carlingford for some years, and lately picked up with a tinker with whom he travelled about Ryde . A number of spurious coins had been passed on several townspeople, and suspicion was aroused against the tinker; but he was too cunning and disappeared before he could be arrested. Adolphe was watched, and caught passing the shilling in question in exchange for a glass of beer, and on the hut at Carlingford where he lived with the tinker being searched a mould for coining the shilling and several bad shillings were discovered. His defence was a total denial of all guilty knowledge, and that he had been made a catspaw of by the tinker. After deliberating for four hours the jury returned a verdict of not guilty, and Adolphe was discharged.
Cumberland Argus and Fruitgrowers Advocate, 31 May 1890
(2) 1ST CONVICTION. Then he was back before the courts in October 1890 for wife desertion for which he was fined £2 15s or in default 12 months gaol. (He was married but their is no marriage found in the name of Norman Adolphe [or similar].)
(3) 2ND CONVICTION. Next he was charged at Parramatta Court on 6 Feb 1892 and sentenced to 2 years hard labour for passing a cointerfeit coin to Mary Anne Thurston and Anne Daley [10 Feb 1892 Police Gazette, gaol record]. He was sent to Parramatta Gaol. He received remission on 28 Sep 1893 and was released from gaol early [11 Oct 1893 Police Gazette].
(4) 3RD CONVICTION. He received a sentence of 3 years on 31 Jan 1895 in Sydney for again passing a counterfeit coin to Mildred Adams. He was at first sent to Parramatta Gaol [6 Mar 1895 Police Gazette, gaol record]. This is recorded as his 3rd Conviction in the Police Gazette of 11 Aug 1897 when he was in Trial Bay Gaol.
(5) 4TH CONVICTION (not on his gaol record).
SATURDAY, MARCH 19.
(Before Mr. G. M. Pope J.P.)
OBSCENE LANGUAGE.
Norman Adolphe, hailing from La Belle France,
[note La Belle France is not a place, it just means beautiful France]
demonstratively denied the soft impeachment that he had on the previous evening made use of obscene language in Glebe-Street, Ryde.
Senior Constable Ross gave evidence to the effect that he saw the defendant come out of the Steamboat Hotel about 8 o'clock on Friday evening and go in the direction of Gladesville. Overtaking two females, he interfered with them, and persisted in forcing his company upon them despite their protests. One of the women said she would give him in charge if he did net leave her and her companion alone, and it was then that Adolphe made use of the obscene language complained of. Witness, who had followed in company with Constable Kelly, thereupon arrested him. The prisoner went quietly enough for about 300 yards or so, and then he resisted most violently. It was with great difficulty that the two police officers handcuffed him, and then be had to be carried to the lock-up by three policemen— the full strength of the Ryde detachment.
Fined 20s, or 14 days' imprisonment.
Cumberland Argus and Fruitgrowers Advocate, 26 Mar 1898
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/85844161
(6) 5TH CONVICTION. In Newcastle in Jun 1898 he gets 20s or in default 7 days gaol for travelling on a boat without paying his fare.
The details that this man gave to police about when he immigrated appear to be incorrect. He said he immigrated at the age of 10. He said he immigrated on the Alexander in 1868. The newspapers reveal 2 ships by that name in 1868, an "Alexander" plying between Australian ports, and an "Alexander Duthie" which arrived on 8 Jul 1868 from London. Passengers were:
Mr. and Mrs. Dashwood and servant, Mr. and Miss McKenzie and servant, Mrs. McNab 9 children and servant, Mrs. Rolliston and two children, Miss Rolliston, Dr. Campbell, Mrs. McLean, Miss M. Douglas, Messrs. J. Marks, Cole, and Stephens. [Please note that these were all paying passengers.]
Sydney Morning Herald, 9 Jul 1868
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/13169085
The only way that he could have been on the "Alexander Duthie" was if he was a boy crew-member and he jumped ship.
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Here is an excellent thread explaining what to do about blanks on historic NSW marriage certs by MAJM
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,546609.0.html
Essentially advice is to contact the church archives as not all info was sent onto registry. (I followed the advice and got all the missing info from church archives for one of my lot )
cheers,
Ros
adding : If you are not in Sydney then I can go and photograph the divorce records for you - as Merlin said they usually have lots of info :)
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Yes, Ros has given you a link to a thread I prepared re seeking out the info that the NSW BDM did not record on their marriage records in the period up to 1895.
The couple DID provide the info re their parentage, and NSW BDM recognises that their own records often fail to have all the info that they were meant to have.
" .....The Registry's records from these years are not complete and it can be worthwhile for genealogists to contact the relevant church to find details missing from a marriage certificate " .....
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/familyHistory/historyofRegistrysRec.htm
Cheers, JM
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I know I said in an earlier post that Adolphe Norman who married in August 1884 and Norman Adolphe who had a gaol record could not be the same man, but now I am not so sure.
The Norman Adolphe of the gaol description book is mentioned a number of times in the New South Wales Police Gazettes in the period 1890-1897. He was well known to the police, and spend periods in gaol.
Yeah I've found him in the gaol books and newspapers but I don't have any proof it's the same guy. As I said he is always called Norman Adolphe. I am unable to find any other record for a Norman Adolphe.
Thank you so much for taking the time and doing all that research for me, I really appreciate it.There is some info there that I hadn't read before.
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Marriage details : Married in the Church of St Anne's Ryde
According to: the sites? of the Church of England.
I will search for St Anne's at Ryde and see if I can find their contact details.
Ryde Library has the records for St Anne's
Baptisms 1826-1942
Marriages 1826-1953
Burials 1826-1913
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Are you able to get to Ryde Library Leanne? Not sure if you are in Sydney. If not I can get there fairly readily.
cheers,
Ros
(St Anne's is a beautiful old church by the way)
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Are you able to get to Ryde Library Leanne? Not sure if you are in Sydney. If not I can get there fairly readily.
cheers,
Ros
(St Anne's is a beautiful old church by the way)
I am in Sydney but not close to Ryde, I was going to email the library and ask them, do you think they would look for me? But if you are offering to look I won't say no. I really appreciate it. Thank you.
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Hi,
Whilst this does not answer the query as to who Adolpus NORMAN/D was. I thought this was interesting and perhaps the original poster has already noted it.
16831/1925
NORMAN Neville D
Father Adolphus
Mother Elizabeth M
Registered at NORTH SYDNEY
16831/1925
KETLEY Patrick
Father Adolphus 38 YRS N SYDNEY
Mother Elizabeth M
Registered at NORTH SYDNEY
Leanne
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Hi,
Whilst this does not answer the query as to who Adolpus NORMAN/D was. I thought this was interesting and perhaps the original poster has already noted it.
16831/1925
NORMAN Neville D
Father Adolphus
Mother Elizabeth M
Registered at NORTH SYDNEY
16831/1925
KETLEY Patrick
Father Adolphus 38 YRS N SYDNEY
Mother Elizabeth M
Registered at NORTH SYDNEY
Leanne
Yes Neville is part of our family.
Not sure about Patrick, Wouldn't his last name be Norman as well ?
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Hi,
I think they might be the same person, have a look at the registration number.
Leanne
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Neville D Norman and Patrick Ketley are the same person ?
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I think it would be worth looking into.
Leanne
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Where did you find that info ?
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Name: Patrick Ketley
Death Date: 1925
Death Place: New South Wales
Father's Name: Adolphus
Mother's Name: Elizabeth M
Registration Year: 1925
Registration Place: North Sydney, New South Wales
Registration number: 16831
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Name: Neville D Norman
Death Date: 1925
Death Place: New South Wales
Father's Name: Adolphus
Mother's Name: Elizabeth M
Registration Year: 1925
Registration Place: North Sydney, New South Wales
Registration number: 16831
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Hi,
Sorry for not supplying the link:
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/familyHistory/familyHistory.htm
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/familyHistory/howToTraceYouFamTree.htm#TranscriptionAgent
Leanne
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Hi,
16831/1925
KETLEY Patrick
Father Adolphus 38 YRS N SYDNEY
Mother Elizabeth M
Registered at NORTH SYDNEY
Leanne
If Adolphus was 38 in 1925 then he would have to be born in 1887
Neville was born in 1887, so his dad couldn't have been born in 1887
We estimate our Adolphus is born around 1860
That Patrick must be the son of the other Adolphus Norman that I keep finding in my searches.
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hi,
I think you will find it means Adolphus was in Sydney for about 38 years, so arriving about 1887, not born 1887, I may stand corrected.
Does that fit better with your timeline?
Leanne
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hi,
I think you will find it means Adolphus was in Sydney for about 38 years, so arriving about 1887, not born 1887, I may stand corrected.
Does that fit better with your timeline?
Leanne
Our Adolphus was married here in 1884
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I can't find a birth record for a Patrick Ketley on the BDM site
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The sad way Neville Dundas Norman died http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article116066632
regards,
Ros
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The sad way Neville Dundas Norman died http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article116066632
regards,
Ros
Yes it is :( My family did not know the full details, they were very interested when I showed them that article.
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I found this
Name: James B Ketley
Birth Date: 1883
Father's Name: Ketley
Mother's Name: Elizabeth M
Birth Place: New South Wales
Registration Year: 1883
Registration Place: Ryde, New South Wales
Registration number: 15955
I wonder if it's the same Elizabeth M
Who married Adolphus Norman in 1884 at Ryde.
I wonder if these children are to Adolphus but born before marriage or if she already had these children to another man.
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Hi,
I would still look into it.
Same Registration details, it at least, should clarify what is going on.
I can find no corresponding birth registration for Patrick in NSW.
Dates and years can be slightly off on early records.
Leanne
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But there is a birth for Neville D Norman in 1887 with parents Adolphus and Elizabeth M in Ryde and this is after their marriage. Was he perhaps born before the marriage and birth registered (reregistered?) after marriage? Very confusing ...
Leanne, it will probably be middle of next week before I go to Ryde library so maybe try e-mailing them first and then let me know if you don't get an answer. Some of these organisations are so efficient and helpful and then others ... :(
cheers,
Ros
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Is anyone able to find Adolphe and Elizabeth on the census / electoral roll together.
I found 2 Adolphus Norman on the 1937 roll
1 - Adolphus William Norman 7 Cleveland St Darlington - Labourer ( no other Norman's listed with him)
2 - Adolphus William Norman - 603 harris St Pyrmont. his wife is listed with him Honora Ida Norman.
I wonder if they are the same guy and he has 2 addresses or if the first Adolphus is another guy with the exact same name.
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The guy I am searching for is like a ghost, he has no records anywhere. Only thing I can find is the marriage record 1884 he is 25 years old born in france, divorce finalised 1894
His wife re married Joseph Lutherborrow in 1894. The dates match I knew thats why she had the marriage to Adolphus dissolved cause she wanted to get married again.
If that Gaol record is his, he took off from her around 1890 and she remarried in 1894.
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He would NOT be entitled to vote as he wasn't a British Subject he would have to be naturalized to do so.
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I noticed in the historical papers adolphe norman was from labelle france, same one?
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He would NOT be entitled to vote as he wasn't a British Subject he would have to be naturalized to do so.
How does he get naturalized?
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He would NOT be entitled to vote as he wasn't a British Subject he would have to be naturalized to do so.
How does he get naturalized?
http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/indexes-online/naturalization-records/index-to-naturalization
The above link is to the NSW State Records Office INDEX covering naturalization records that they hold.
The following link is to the NSW SRO's short guide 9 re Naturalisation
http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/guides-and-finding-aids/short-guide-9/short-guide-9
"Australian Citizenship" did NOT exist until 1949. Before then, any person born in any of the six colonies that were Federated together by an Act of the English Parliament in 1901 to thus form the Commonwealth of Australia was a British Subject. (regardless of their parents citizenship status).
If the person sought to become a naturalised British Subject after Federation, then in general terms you will likely find that record is held by the NAA. If they sought to become naturalised before Federation, then it is likely that the record is held by the relevant State RO. Most have uploaded their indexes to their respective websites. You will usually need to pay a nominal fee to have the actual records digitised. The records will usually show you the date of birth, place of birth, for the applicant, as well as the name and date and port of arrival of the ship that fetched your family member/s to these shores. The applications also include details of the applicant's life in Australia (which colony, town, occupation, how long in each, if married, number of children etc etc etc).
http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/search/index.aspx
http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/family-history/your-family/index.aspx
http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/research-topics/family-history/how-to-start-your-family-history
Cheers, JM
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Thank you.
So does this mean he won't show up on any records
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Thank you.
So does this mean he won't show up on any records
No, it simply means you may need to actually go and visit the archives to find the records rather than just try to rely on online indexes
Cheers JM
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I contacted Ryde library and they sent me a copy of the original record.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v721/leetaylor21/Adolphebirthrecords.jpg)
The email from her:
Hello Leanne
Unfortunately I have looked at the marriage entry and it does not give
you the information you require.
I have however attached it for you as there is other interesting
information you can glean from it.
Adolphe could write as he signed his name.
Elizabeth could not write (she signed with a cross)
The witness Catherine (sister? Mother? Sister-in-law?) could not write
as she too signed with a cross.
The other witness was George M Pope who was the local Registrar of
Births, Deaths and Marriages, Council clerk and census taker. My feeling
is that he may have been called in to be the second witness but may not
have known the couple personally.
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So now you have the document to support your quest .... Please read the link I gave you earlier (NSW mcs with blanks ) it is just a hurdle. The clergyman recorded the details on the parish register.... . That attachment is simply an UNreconciled NSW BDM registration
Cheers JM
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So now you have the document to support your quest .... Please read the link I gave you earlier (NSW mcs with blanks ) it is just a hurdle. The clergyman recorded the details on the parish register.... . That attachment is simply an UNreconciled NSW BDM registration
Cheers JM
Oh really, I thought this was the original document. Thanks I will have another look at the link.
Do you know why the address would be different.
It looks like the the handwriting is the same on both documents like it has been photocopied but the ministers signature looks different
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The cert you have from the NSW BDM and the image from the Library are both only giving you PART of the parish registers.
You NEED to get to the original parish register. As this is St Anne's, Ryde (C of E) you should anticipate that the registers are with the Sydney Diocese.
It can take UPTO five different registers to provide ALL the info that the bride and the groom provided to the clergyman.
The NSW BDM cert does NOT have any markings to indicate that they had reconciled that record.
The differences in the addresses recorded are showing you that there's been at least more than one register used at the time of the marriage. One would be the civil one, and one would be ONE of the parish registers (C of E usually had at least two !)
Cheers, JM
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16831/1925
KETLEY Patrick
Father Adolphus 38 YRS N SYDNEY
Mother Elizabeth M
Registered at NORTH SYDNEY[/size][/size]
I have just come across this thread, and have some comments to make.
The above death record would indicate that the person who died (Patrick Kelty) was aged 38 years when he died. (Not his father) This would be shown on the next column of the death record. This is common on NSW BD&M records.
Also the marriage records on the previous page show that Elizabeth's maiden name was Kelty. This could be the reason for Patrick's surname. Was his birth registered under this name or did he take her maiden name after his parents divorce.
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16831/1925
KETLEY Patrick
Father Adolphus 38 YRS N SYDNEY
Mother Elizabeth M
Registered at NORTH SYDNEY[/size][/size]
I have just come across this thread, and have some comments to make.
The above death record would indicate that the person who died (Patrick Kelty) was aged 38 years when he died. (Not his father) This would be shown on the next column of the death record. This is common on NSW BD&M records.
Also the marriage records on the previous page show that Elizabeth's maiden name was Kelty. This could be the reason for Patrick's surname. Was his birth registered under this name or did he take her maiden name after his parents divorce.
Ketley is his mums maiden name :)
He was born Neville Norman.
Family has told me they remember a story about him being called Paddy which fits in with his name being Patrick. They think he went by a different name because he could have been ashamed of his dad, but an article has been posted about him being in court so I think maybe he went by a different name due the court issue and the baby he had with another women, but he seems to be Neville on most documents except the death record index. I haven't been able to find Patrick Ketley on other records.
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Sorry, I wasn't real clear, I did mean it was his mother's maiden name. I have some ancestors' on my tree who want/need to change their name for various reasons (such as wife desertion) and they choose their mother's maiden name as their new surname. Back then a person could just change their name without having to make it official. :)
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Sorry, I wasn't real clear, I did mean it was his mother's maiden name. I have some ancestors' on my tree who want/need to change their name for various reasons (such as wife desertion) and they choose their mother's maiden name as their new surname. Back then a person could just change their name without having to make it official. :)
Sorry, my fault I wasn't clear. I was agreeing with you :) saying yes her maiden name was Ketley.
Well apparently his dad was charged with Wife desertion, so maybe he hated his dad, or was ashamed of him so thats why he chose him mums name. Thank you for your help.
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No Worries.
I think you might be right in assuming the reasons for the name change. There was no Government support back then for deserted wives so life must have been very difficult for the family :)
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My cousin is going to france, do you think there is any way she can trace down Adolphus or are we stuck until we get his parents names from his marriage records?