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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: CollSloan on Tuesday 02 July 13 04:14 BST (UK)
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Hi all,
I'm at my wits end trying to decipher the first name and the maiden name of Robert Sloan's mother in the attached document. I've tried using old Scottish handwriting guides online and I have also asked several people, including an archivist, to take a look but no one can figure it out! I've highlighted the area (under James Sloan - Shepherd) in yellow and I would be grateful for any help. :)
Regards
Colleen
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First name looks like "Grace".
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I'd say "Grace Sloan M.S. McIters/McItirs (Deceased)."
Alexander
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I say also
Grace Sloan
M.S. McItirs
Deceased
Dawn M
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Hi,
I also agree with Dawn M.
Victor
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Colleen, I don't think Scottish handwriting was much different at this time, it's just bad handwriting.
Is this in Galloway by any chance? there were some very strange Mc names from the south-west which no longer exist as they've been gentrified to something else.
Magaw to MacKay for example.
Skoosh.
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Any handwriting issues [I don't think this certificate is particularly bad] are dwarfed by the recurring problems created by the low resolution scanning of these Scottish documents in the first place.
Josey
LATER: By Scotland's People I mean - not the poster!
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I think the challenge is translating what might look like McIters / McItirs to something we recognise, there's nothing in the way of a surname like that which I can find ???
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I wondered if it was a spelling of McIntyre, McEntire, etc., though there is clearly no 'n' in this case.
Alexander
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Could be, I'd be surprised if the first three letters weren't McI, welcome other opinions.
There could be a lazy / missing letter after the "I", then it all goes downhill...
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"Any handwriting issues [I don't think this certificate is particularly bad] are dwarfed by the recurring problems created by the low resolution scanning of these Scottish documents in the first place."
And the poster has several ways of using Scotland's People page to change the resolution to get a better image.
Bottom left, Gold button with Black cross, "Change Enhance Mode"
Bottom Right, "Sun" symbol, to change contrast.
Regards
Malky
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Hi Colleen
Robert's birth or marriage OPRs might clarify his mother's name.
Robert's place of death is Moniaive, Dumfriesshire. The Dumfriesshire censuses will indicate where he was born. I can see a Robert Sloan on the 1861 census, aged 60, living in the Parish of Glencairn, Dumfriesshire, born Kirkcudbrightshire. I think it's the same Robert on the 1841 census, aged 40, but his birthplace is given as Dumfriesshire there.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/VBQ1-ZRS
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/VYD9-RFR
Is it possible Robert was his middle name and he was baptised under a different name? Or, did he have a brother called William? On SP births there's a William Sloan, son of James Sloan and EUNICE MOORE, born in Kirkcudbrightshire, July 1799. ???
On FS, I can see various christenings of children of Robert Sloan & Ann Clelland - Samuel (1825), Marion (1829), and James (1831) - all born at Moniaive. So his marriage was probably after 1819 (aged 18+) and before 1826. There are various Ann Cleland marriages on SP for that period, but none to a Sloan. Is it possible Ann married before, was widowed, and then remarried Robert under a different name?
Failing that, did your Robert have any known siblings (e.g. witnesses at any of his children's births or marriages)? The siblings' BMDs might have clearer details of the mother's name.
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Robert & Ann's daughter, Marion b. 1829, might have been named after a grandmother Mary.
Could this be the James Sloan (dad's) household in 1841? On Free Cen -
Piece: SCT1841/821 Place: Dumfries -Dumfries-shire Enumeration District: 4
Civil Parish: Dumfries Ecclesiastical Parish, Village or Island: -
Folio: 27 Page: 1
Address: Auchencrieff Bank
SLOAN James M 60 Joiner Dumfries-shire
SLOAN Mary F 60 Dumfries-shire
SLOAN Margaret F 35 Dumfries-shire
SLOAN John M 30 Joiner Journeyman Dumfries-shire
SLOAN David M 25 Coachmaker Journeyman Dumfries-shire
SLOAN Janet F 25 Dumfries-shire
SLOAN Agnes F 20 Dumfries-shire
THOMSON Mary F 7 Dumfries-shire
MCNEIL David M 15 Joiner Apprentice Dumfries-shire
James might have been a joiner first and a shepherd later in life?
It puts his birth abt. 1781, which seems about right if son Robert was born abt. 1801.
Robert (if he's the eldest son) is not in this household because he might have been married by this time / living elsewhere (children with Ann Cleland are born in the 1820s/early 30s).
What was Robert's occupation? I can see Agricultural Labourer on the second line after his name on the dc, but what's on the first line? ****** Journeyman?
So does Mary = "Grace"? (Perhaps a middle name?)
On FS, I can see a James Sloan spouse of a Mary RYCROFT in Dumfriesshire, and another one, spouse of a Mary NITHERS - parents of a David Sloane (b. 1806). But neither of those surnames looks anything like the mother's MS on your Robert's death reg. Problematic. Unless James Sloan married twice?
A death cert for James Sloan (deceased prior to 1864) might confirm his wife/-ves.
Added:
On second thoughts, looking at Robert's dc again, could the mother's MS be McNITERS / McNithers / Nithers?!!
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Now strongly leaning towards McNiter or Macniter. Variant of Macnidder, MacNider, etc.
From Nithsdale in the valley of the river Nith (Gaelic: Stranit/Strathnith/Strathnid), in Dumfriesshire.
The Earls of Nithsdale held Caerlaverock Castle in Dumfriesshire.
The McNiters (and all variant names thereof) are associated with the Clan Macfarlane.
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I wonder if Grace's name McIter/ McIteer is from Ireland.
Also I've come across the name Grace recorded as Grizzel/Grisel.
Looby :)
Added. What about the surname Mctier. There were Mctier's in the 1700's early 1800's in South West Scotland.
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Looks like could also be McItire? I have a number of strange Scottish names where I think the 'r' looks very like an 'n'. The letter at the end that looks like an 's' could also be an 'e'.
caie
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Could it be Martins with a tiny little a. I think there was rather a lot of them in that area.
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Welcome to RootsChat, Louie! ;D
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Thank you :)
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Hi everyone,
Thanks so much for all your replies and help! Its much appreciated:) The good news is that I have found her so thanks to you all! Her name on the cert. does indeed look like Grace McItirs/McIters. I had come across a Grace Sloan with a son called Thomas on the 1841 census recently but for whatever reason I didn't follow it up. Now I have found an 1851 census record and a death record for her too. It seems her marriage to James was not recorded and neither was his birth or death.
But I think I may have found a birth record for Grace in Kirkcudbrightshire. She seems to go by the very unusual name of 'Nitters' most of the time.
I've put these up here. Hopefully the attachments work!
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Fantastic! It's a great feeling finding something... and I don't feel as silly suggesting something other than a Mc now. :D
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Hey Louie,
No need to feel silly at all. The way it was written could have meant anything at all! :)
Just a few more bits to add now. I found her son, Thomas' death record with both parent's names and Grace's unusual surname again! On her birth record, it is 'Nittles' though. She must have decided to change it later on.
Colleen
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Robert & Ann's daughter, Marion b. 1829, might have been named after a grandmother Mary.
Could this be the James Sloan (dad's) household in 1841? On Free Cen -
Piece: SCT1841/821 Place: Dumfries -Dumfries-shire Enumeration District: 4
Civil Parish: Dumfries Ecclesiastical Parish, Village or Island: -
Folio: 27 Page: 1
Address: Auchencrieff Bank
SLOAN James M 60 Joiner Dumfries-shire
SLOAN Mary F 60 Dumfries-shire
SLOAN Margaret F 35 Dumfries-shire
SLOAN John M 30 Joiner Journeyman Dumfries-shire
SLOAN David M 25 Coachmaker Journeyman Dumfries-shire
SLOAN Janet F 25 Dumfries-shire
SLOAN Agnes F 20 Dumfries-shire
THOMSON Mary F 7 Dumfries-shire
MCNEIL David M 15 Joiner Apprentice Dumfries-shire
James might have been a joiner first and a shepherd later in life?
It puts his birth abt. 1781, which seems about right if son Robert was born abt. 1801.
Robert (if he's the eldest son) is not in this household because he might have been married by this time / living elsewhere (children with Ann Cleland are born in the 1820s/early 30s).
What was Robert's occupation? I can see Agricultural Labourer on the second line after his name on the dc, but what's on the first line? ****** Journeyman?
So does Mary = "Grace"? (Perhaps a middle name?)
On FS, I can see a James Sloan spouse of a Mary RYCROFT in Dumfriesshire, and another one, spouse of a Mary NITHERS - parents of a David Sloane (b. 1806). But neither of those surnames looks anything like the mother's MS on your Robert's death reg. Problematic. Unless James Sloan married twice?
A death cert for James Sloan (deceased prior to 1864) might confirm his wife/-ves.
Added:
On second thoughts, looking at Robert's dc again, could the mother's MS be McNITERS / McNithers / Nithers?!!
Hi,
I think it could be a brother of his maybe. His mother was born in 1765 so I'm guessing the father, James was born around that time too. Thanks for your help with the surname, I don't know how you figured it out but you were spot on with it :)
Theres no sign of a death, birth or marriage for James that I can see but I've added the records I've found with Grace listed in them.
I've always thought that Robert's occupation on the cert. was 'Pauper formally agricultural labourer' or something along those lines. I hope I'm wrong though!
Colleen
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Good that you have found it in the end.
Who would have thought it said Nitters! or Nittles. ;D
Well done to the sharp eyes who spotted that one.
Looby :)
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It looks like Grace Sloan MS McItens