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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Jaznjjj on Saturday 29 June 13 23:42 BST (UK)
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I am trying to find out fastest possible transit times for ships (particularly barques) travelling between the U.K. and NSW in the 1840s in order to try to solve a family history mystery. A family travelled between NSW and the UK, then back to South Australia in 1849 in a maximum time frame of 214 days. The ship they returned on, the Childe Harold, took about 103 days to travel from the UK to South Australia - leaving London on the 17th February, 1849. The earliest date they could have left NSW was the 31st October, 1848 and I have not been able to locate a ship leaving Sydney in early November for the UK. If they left Sydney on the 31st October and travelled by the fastest transit time I could find (90 days for a clipper ship) they were only in the UK for maximum of 21 days and probably much less. That's the mystery, why?! Regards,
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If you go to Trove and look at the Sydney Morning Herald on any Saturday in october & November 1848 you will see numerous advertisements on the front page for 'fast clipper ships' direct to London.
Take your pick.
I note in October the "Sir Edward Paget" was advertising - this ship made many fast (for the time) voyages between UK and Australia.
But 3 - 4 months was the norm.
Try this one: http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/page/1514284
Dawn M
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I have a diarised record of the barque 'John' that left Gravesend 13 September 1839 and took '4 months and 27 days' to reach Adelaide with 196 passengers.
joboy
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Thank you both. I looked at the list on Ozships.net without finding ships leaving Sydney for the U.K. in November, 1848. I will definitely investigate the Trove references. For many years I and other researchers had assumed the family travelled on the Childe Harold from Sydney - the thought of a round trip NSW-UK-SA didn't occur. Evidence indicates that the journey took place. Richard Bruce, the father of the family being investigated, had been discharged from his regiment in Sydney on the 31st October with a 12 months gratuity for his long service - so there would have been funds to cover the trip. Their oldest child had been left in Ireland (later married there) and the the most likely scenario we can come up with is a reunion with that child who would have been about 20 years old in 1849. Still - for the effort outlaid, they stayed less than 3 weeks. January/February 1849 would have been bleak winter in the U.K. I have lots more work to do with this, yes? Regards, Jennifer
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I haven't used Ozships.net but their blurb says 'over 31000' entries spanning 1788-1968 which is 180 years, so you can see from that they must have listed only relatively few voyages.
The "Childe Harold" seems to be reported on Trove via South Australia more than NSW in that time frame ???
Dawn M
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Looks like it took long enough just to get across the Bay. There was a letter in the Geelong Advertiser in November 1848 complaining "Yesterday I was a passenger on board of the Aphraisia, from Melbourne to Geelong. We left Melbourne at half-past ten a.m., had a head wind all the way, and did not arrive at Geelong until half-past ten p.m. ...What I complain of is, that this vessel did not carry a boat, in consequence of which neglect on the part of the owners, the captain was compelled to diverge from his course to borrow a boat from one of the vessels at Port Henry."
Normal passage across the Bay from Melbourne to off Queenscliffe is about 2 hours. I have done it a few times in the Oronsay, Orcades, Fairsky, Australis, and the QE2.
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The Alice Maud took 102 days. January Thursday 25 1849 - The Alice Maud arrived in the Bay yesterday evening after a remarkably good passage having left the Downs on the 12th and Lands End on the 15th October. The cabin passengers are reported to be highly respectable and influential persons, and have brought a large amount of capital to the colony.
The whole of the passengers have defrayed their own expenses, and are not bounty emigrants, as supposed. A more respectable class of people never yet arrived in the province; they are principally mechanics from London, with a few mercantile clerks, and five or six labourers. The kind attention of Captain Williams and his lady to the passengers is acknowledged by them with gratitude, and we are informed that it is their intention to present him with a piece of plate and an address expressive of their due appreciation of his kindness...."
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Perhaps it should be noted that there were a few ships lost around this time, the Sophia, the Abeona, the Barque Tenasserim, the Brig Elizabeth, the Harriet,the Princess Royalfrom Hong Kong, and the Teazer. Then there was fire on board the Hero in Geelong Harbour on 15th January 1849. They think that wool on board ignited.
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I have spent a little time on Trove looking at shipping departures from Sydney for London. Haven't got to looking at the clipper advertisements yet but that is on my jobs list - particularly the Sir Edward Paget.
ELHINSTONE barque 423 tons – departed 30th October (a little early but useful as a starting point)
GANGES ship 430 tons – clearance 4th November – laid on for London 4th Nov.
Will clear customs “this day or Monday” (7th Nov). To sail on Wednesday morning (8th Nov). Noted as leaving on the 8th.
SERINGAPATAM ship 360 tons – laid on for London 4th November. Noted as following the Ganges in about ten days (say 14th Nov) “after which there will not be a vessel for London for some weeks”.
I need to look at these ships at the other end of their journey.
Other ships I may need to find out something about are Brightman, Sir Edward Paget, Kelso, Cheapside, Agricola, Earl Grey and Woodlark which were noted in one newspaper entry as being laid on for London but which don't appear anywhere else within the time frame I was searching. I think the Ganges and the Seringapatam are a good starting point.
More later. On a steep learning curve at present. Thanks, J.
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GANGES from Sydney NSW, Captain Blanchard, off Falmouth 18/3/1849 arrived London 30/3/1849
SERINGAPATAM from Sydney NSW, off Swanage 3/4/1849 arrived London 7/4/1849
SIR EDWARD PAGET from Sydney Captain Barkley, off deal 26/4/1849 arrived Gravesend 27/4/1849
BRIGHTMAN from Sydney NSW off Kingsbridge 26/4/1849 arrived London 1/5/1849
ARIGICOLA arrived Gravesend 27/4/1849
KELSO from Sydney at Gravesend 28/4/1849
CHEAPSIDE Captain Lewis from Sydney off Plymouth 11/5/1849
Could find nothing on EARL GREY or WOODLARK
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I discovered that the Brightman, Sir Edward Paget, Kelso, Cheapside, Agricola, Earl Grey and Woodlark left Sydney in December - so too late to reach the U.K. in time for the family to be on board the Childe Harold on 17th/19th February. The Ganges and the Seringapatam also arrived UK past that boarding date - their transit times being respectively 142 and 135 days - so not as fast as the advertisements would suggest.
Back to the drawing board!
Alternatives:
While Richard Bruce was discharged from his regiment on 31st October - could he in fact have left the colony before the date of discharge? I need to get back to the National Archives, Canberra to check his payroll details for the end of his service with the 11th Regiment. Won't happen quickly.
The family left from a port other than Sydney which means factoring in extra travel time.
Both.
???
Thank you all. J
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I didn't mean a sad face to go in at the end. It was supposed to be three question marks. J
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It would depend on how many distress signals they responded to on the voyage. In May 1844 the Ganges from Portsmouth to Sydney went to the aid of the barque Rebecca which was flying distress signals in Bass's Straits. When they got near enough they saw two boards with the messages 'No Chart', "No Compass", "No Provisions" and 'Blown off King's Island'.
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Right! (and thank you) A ship's log could be informative.
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Sth Australian Register 5 June 1849 has the arrival on 2 June 1849 of South Australia of a Richard Bruce, wife and two children on the barque Childe Harold, 463 tones, (J.S. BYERS) FROM London and Plymouth.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/71623860
Here’s mention of some 189 rank and file of the 11th regiment along with 17 women and 24 children coming to Sydney from Hobart arriving July 21 1848… on the Sir Edward Paget, (Captain Barclay) a barque, 482 tons.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/12908717 SMH 22 JULY 1848
Here’s 77 rank and file of the 11th Regiment, 14 women, 14 female children 6 male children on the Freak under Williamson for Sydney departing Sth Aust on 13 Oct 1848
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/71612688 Sth Australian 17 Oct 1848
There’s quite a few mentions of the “11th regiment” (as a keyword search option) coming from various colonies into Sydney throughout 1848 in the digitised newspapers at TROVE.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/
I realise it is the outward bound from Sydney that you are looking for. Have you lots of patience for armchair searching through pdf files that are not keyword searchable? If so, try the following website (pre trove) http://www.nla.gov.au/ferg/about/index.html as it covers newspapers from around 1840 to 1850 (the title suggests otherwise, but there is shipping newspapers into late 1850)
Cheers, JM
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Right! (and thank you) A ship's log could be informative.
There are 3 volumes of "Log of Logs" you may need to consult. These were compiled by Ian Nicholson (since died) of all references to logs etc of ships connected with Australia & NZ, and where to find them. You may need to look in all 3 vols as information was added as he discovered it, so some ships get mentioned in more than one volume.
but of course first of all you need to know the name of your ship. :P :P :P
Dawn M
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http://www.nla.gov.au/ferg/issn/14403897.html
This should give you the link directly to "The Shipping gazette and general trade list" at the ferguson papers site.
It definitely has all of the 1848 issues available, and the shipping in and out of Sydney and names of passengers.... fingers crossed for you that you find your family outward bound in that newspaper.
Cheers, JM
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Yes, patience is a virtue - or so I'm told. Sometimes the only way to sort things is the long hard grind. I have notes on some of the movements of the Regiment - which was often split and sent to different areas. I also noted in my Trove search a small group from the regiment travelling to Moreton Bay (SMH 8/11/1848). "Ensign Cameron, twenty-five steerage passengers and thirty-five rank and file of the 11th regiment, with seven women and eighteen children". This is worth my while following up I think if perhaps they travelled to the UK from a port other than Sydney. Richard Bruce would have been discharged (no longer a soldier) at that date. Not listed as a passenger on that journey - steamer "Tamar" but could have travelled steerage, or been thought of as a defacto member of the regiment. More homework to be done - ships from Moreton Bay to UK.
Away from the computer until tomorrow but on a bit of a roll at the moment so interested in any and all input. Also experiencing synergy with several other researchers who are descendants of this family and with whom I am sharing your input - the ether is running hot!
Will follow up the references in your posts when I can.
Mucho thanku, J
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Have had a chance to do a bit more. The Ferguson site is excellent - thank you! Richard Bruce was paid up on his date of discharge (31st October, 1848) so it doesn't look like he received an early mark to catch an earlier ship.
I am now thinking it is more likely if the family transhipped from Sydney to another Australian port to travel to the U.K. that such a port is likely to be Port Phillip or Launceston, rather than Moreton Bay. Am I right, that most ships would have sailed via the Cape of Good Hope between Australia and the U.K.? I also have to explore the possibility that the family left from Port Adelaide. The problem is that the timing is so tight.
Revisiting: none of the ships which left Sydney in November/December arrived in the U.K. in time for the family to land and then return on the Childe Harold. So I'm looking for a fast ship from one of the other Australian ports.
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I didn't mean a sad face to go in at the end. It was supposed to be three question marks. J
The shorthand for a 'confused' smiley is 3 question marks. That's why you got it.
So if you just want to mean a query, better to use 2 or 4 question marks. :) :)
bI am now thinking it is more likely if the family transhipped from Sydney to another Australian port to travel to the U.K. that such a port is likely to be Port Phillip or Launceston, rather than Moreton Bay. Am I right, that most ships would have sailed via the Cape of Good Hope between Australia and the U.K.?
They almost all came around the Cape. There was no Suez Canal then, and coming via South America was even more hazardous, I believe. So I learnt at school 60 years ago! :P :P :P
Dawn M
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Laughter! Hmm, I originally thought LOL meant Lots of Love.
I haven't progressed further with the search for the ship - just taking a deep breath. The other proposition is that the family left before the date of the discharge from the regiment - but the pay books indicate that he was discharged and paid on the 31st October in Sydney so that appears to be a dead-end. That payment included12 months gratuity which would have given the family the means to travel. I have to find out how much a passage from Australia to the U.K. is likely to have cost. His pay-rate copied in below which I haven't quite worked out yet. Oh! now I may have to do calculations in pounds shillings and pence (also learned about 60 years ago) to work out his grauity. Which raises the question of the currency which would have been received at his payout and how and when and if it might have been exchanged for English Pounds when the family reached the U.K. Questions keep springing up like weeds!
"Bruce - Richard 1848. Voucher 26 546/1122
1/10 - 31/10 = 31 days + 2d. p.diem + 3½ d. p.day on shore.
Discharged - 31 October, received a gratuity of 12 months pay."
I have been in touch with Westpac archives on the off-chance they have some record of the family. There is an R. Bruce in their index who opened an account in 1847. I have requested further information (also regarding my other Sydney families). The archivist also told me there were over 20 banks in existence in the colony at about that time.
Jennifer (imagine a smiley here)
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In the 1840s I think they were still using British pounds for currency - other than things like the holey dollar etc., or rum.
The pay rate of 2d. per diem means two pence per day and there were 240 pence to the pound.
Presumably they got more when on shore leave because they had to pay for their accommodation (a bit like holiday pay these days?? ;D )
His 'gratuity of 12 months pay' would thus have been at least 2d x 365 = 730 pence or 3 pounds and tenpence. But more if they paid him at the shore leave rate.
How much did a voyage Australia to UK cost in 1840s? Well, the bounty immigrants from Uk to Australia were paid for at the rate of 15 pounds per adult which presumably gave the agents reimbursement for their passage plus some profit. I have an idea passage was somewhere around 5 pounds but stand to be corrected by someone more knowledgeable ::) ::) ::)
Dawn M
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Hmmm, the more I think about it, the more I think the sums don't compute. Passage both ways for two adults and two children therefore would be upward of twenty pounds. Even if I triple Richard's takehome pay (= about ten pound) per annum and allow that as his grauity as well, it falls way short of what is needed for the journey unless he had some other source of funds. So much evidence points to the Childe Harold sailing from Plymouth direct to Port Adelaide! For the sake of thoroughness I need to check if that vessel did in fact touch at Sydney and pick up the family. Given the usual routes travelled from the U.K. to Australia it seems unlikely that the Childe Harold would touch first at Sydney, and then backtrack to Port Adelaide. The time frame is overly tight for this to happen as well. Another possibility is a fast transit via Cape Horn instead of Cape of Good Hope though east-west appears not to have been how it was done usually. I have more to do to solve this (including Log of Logs). Jennifer
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What is interesting is that the cost of passage didn't increase all that much in a hundred years from say 1840 to 1937. I recall looking at some very old brochures we still had on file at Cooks Head Office in Melbourne, back in the late 1960's and the ads were from around 37 pounds in a 1937 brochure. In 1956 I paid 88 pounds sterling to travel from Navarino Bay in Greece on the Oronsay to Melbourne and later that same year I went from Melbourne to Tilbury in the Orcades for 104 pounds sterling - 130 pounds Australian. I still have the ticket signed and issued by my old friend George Franklin who is kicking on a bit now. I worked with George then at the Orient Line in Collins Street. So inflation had begun to take hold then. Incidentally we could not hand over a passage ticket for overseas travel unless the client had first obtained a 'Tax Certificate' saying that they could leave the country.
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One of the things I am finding most interesting is how much I am learning as I go along - even if it becomes a dead-end I am still the better for it. Yes, 100 years without a significant rise in prices for travel by sea. I learned (rightly or wrongly) years ago that up to about 3% inflation was healthy growth in an economy - that no inflation equalled stagnation. I guess economists have made pretty graphs about this. J
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I have an interest in finding out about sailing times in the other direction, from Sydney to the U.K. C1848.
Jennifer
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I have an interest in finding out about sailing times in the other direction, from Sydney to the U.K. C1848.
Depends on the type of ship (barque, clipper, schooner, etc), route taken & ports of call.
Do you have the name of the ship?
British newspapers advertised arrivals & departures the same as Australia.
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For an insight into conditions aboard emigrant ships see R.LStevenson's "An Amateur Emigrant", which you can read this online. Stevenson travelled from the Clyde to New York but it can't have differed greatly from Oz apart from the duration.
Skoosh.
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Sydney to the U.K. which ship?
This is a mystery in my family history research in that a soldier discharged from the 11th Devonshire Guards in Sydney on the 31st October, 1848 arrives in South Australia on the Childe Harold from Plymouth on the 2nd June, 1849 - total elapsed time 214 days. The Childe Harold left Plymouth on the 23rd February, 1849, from London on the 17th February, 1849. The time frame is tight - or maybe impossible - the fastest passage time for that route I was able to find was 90 days giving them turnaround time in the U.K. of only 21 days IF they left Sydney immediately after the discharge from the regiment and if they were on board a very fast clipper ship. Two ships only, Ganges and Seringapatam, left Sydney for the U.K. 8th and say 14th November, 1848. I haven't yet found their arrival times in the U.K. and I don't know whether they were fast ships.
The documentation for the voyage of the Childe Harold and the arrival of the family in South Australia seems to be in order BUT there is a problem with the timing. Jennifer
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How do you actually know he went to England, and back ?
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I wonder who were the witnesses on this parish record for his daughter's marriage on 14 Oct 1848?
Marriage NSW
441/1848 V1848441 78
SIBLEY Edward T
BRUCE Maria
District QC = Presbyterian Sydney Scots Church (Pitt St)
This family researcher writes that Richard BRUCE and family embarked Sydney on the CHILDE HAROLD [from Plymouth] for Adelaide.
http://freepages.history.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~garter1/bruceric.htm
The CHILDE HAROLD did not go to Sydney.
The Shipping Gazette and Sydney General Trade List 14 Jul 1849
The William Hyde brings the passengers for this port who came out by the Royal Sovereign and the Childe Harold to Adelaide.-Herald.
Cheers :)
Cando
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I was once looking at a passenger in the early 1900's and the "Concorde" of British Isles/Australia travel then was leaving a major port and sailing to New York. New York to California by train and then another ship to Sydney from California. He was a businessman so did not have to worry about the cost.
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That journey to G.B. and back has been cause for concern on my part for a number of reasons; first and foremost is the time elapsed between departure from Sydney and arrival in South Australia which is extraordinarily tight for even the fastest ship. Their arrival on the Childe Harold seems solid and I have searched and found no record at this stage that the Childe Harold came into S.A. via Sydney or Tasmania. I continue to gather data into a huge file hoping one day to find an answer. I believe the documentation for the Childe Harold was destroyed when a storage area was flooded so the information about the arrival of the family comes from a shipping article in a newspaper.
Can't lay my hands on the marriage information for Maria (married Sibley) at the moment but at the Tasmanian Archives I located marriage information for Ruth (married Thorne) on Norfolk Island with consent of parents - witnesses Maria Bruce and others (not Richard Bruce). The other daughter, Elizabeth, married in 1861 after the death of her father. That marriage was witnessed by her brother, Richard Hamilton Bruce and one other unknown (to me) individual. J
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The average length of the voyage from England to Australia 'under canvas' from 1840 to 1860 was one hundred and eleven days while the shortest voyage on record was eighty three days.
Cando
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Thank you for that. I've found it more difficult to find travelling times going in the other direction. If I use that figure of 83 days the timing is still very tight, with turnaround in the U.K. perhaps a month at most but likely to be much shorter. Possible - but unlikely though it's hard to argue with the Childe Harold information. J
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http://srwww.records.nsw.gov.au/indexes/searchform.aspx?id=49
The CHILDE HAROLD is not listed as arriving in NSW.
Richard BRUCE and family were unassisted passengers and prior to 1852 it was not compulsory for the names of unassisted passengers to be recorded on the ship's manifest.
The survival rate of passenger lists in South Australia is poor and I doubt even if the manifest has survived, it would have given you any further information than detailed in the newspaper.
Cando
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Thank you. The Ganges and Seringapatam leaving Sydney in November both arrived in the U.K. too late to have carried the Bruce family in time to travel to South Australia on the Childe Harold. So, while it seems impossible the family went to the U.K. and returned in the time available, their arrival on the Childe Harold indicates to the contrary. One possible solution is that they trans-shipped onto the Childe Harold at Tasmania - but I have found no evidence at this stage to support that vessel touching at Tasmania. J
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The CHILDE HAROLD arrived in Adelaide from London, via Plymouth and cleared out for Bombay without passengers after being towed off a sandbar. This ship did not berth in Tasmania or Victoria.
Colonial Times, Hobart 15 Jun 1859
NEWS FROM ENGLAND.
BY the Adelaide journals received per Duchess of Clarence, we have intelligence seven days later than that formerly received. Two emigrant ships, the Royal Sovereign and the Childe Harold, arrived at Port Adelaide on the 2nd instant; the former having sailed from Plymouth on the 17th February, and the latter a few days earlier.
The important information contained in the following article from the Daily News of the 5th February, entitles it to precedence. The fact that the Bill to give us comparative political freedom was at last about to be brought before Parliament, with every chance of speedily passing and becoming law, will be hailed as good news by our, fellow-colonists.......
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article12913475
Sydney Morning Herald 11 Jul 1849
PORT PHILLIP
ARRIVALS
The William Hyde brings the passengers for this port who came out by the Royal Sovereign and the Childe Harold to Adelaide.-Herald. [? Port Philip Herald]
http://www.familyhistorysa.info/shipping/passengerlists.html
BRUCE Richard, Maria PARKINSON, Rd Hamilton, Eliz Jane arrived in SA 2 Jun 1849 aboard Childe Harold from London 17 Feb 1849 via Plymouth.
This record has been compiled from various sources including newspapers.
AND
http://www.slsa.sa.gov.au/fh/passengerlists/1849ChildeHarold.htm
BRUCE, Richard and wife and 2 children
I wonder who wrote this letter? Someone who expected Richard to be living in the colony of SA ie if the letter was intended for your ancestor?
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article158926996
The Observer 13 Jan 1849
UNCLAIMED LETTERS.
List cf unclaimed letters for quarter ended December
31st. 1848;
Samuel BRUCE, Richard BRUCE
Perhaps Richard and family returned to England prior to his formal discharge. Any events in England that would have caused him to return albeit for a short period?
Cando
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Anyone looking for a day by day description of a voyage from the UK to the Antipodes in the 1800's can read the diaries of two passengers who travelled on the Cartvale in 1874.
The diary of George Smith is on this page - http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~ourstuff/DiaryofGeorgeSmith.htm
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Edwin Selby also kept a diary recording every day of the voyage of the Cartvale in 1874 - http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~ourstuff/DiaryofEdwinSelby.htm
Some awful events on the way but just look at what happened after the ship arrived.
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Malcolm the OP is seeking information about journeys in 1849.
Cando
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Yes, it's one of those situations where the irresistible force meets the immovable object. The facts regarding the Childe Harold appear to be solid and seem to support the family travelling from Great Britainin 1849. What works against it (among other things) is the brief time-frame in which to get to G.B. in time to board the Childe Harold. As indicated earlier, the ships leaving Sydney for London in November, 1848 did not get there in time to allow this. Richard was discharged and paid out in Sydney including a year's gratuity which gives us an earliest probable date for departure. There is a possibility that he left before formal discharge and that's a direction to be explored. I can't imagine their continuing to pay him if he took off possibly months before the discharge. I have some of his pay information from the National Archives in Canberra and I'll need to check whether this runs right up to the discharge date. Daughter Maria marries in Sydney on 13th October, 1848. Richard is discharged 31st October, 1848 so I will need to check my notes and/or go to State Records Office and check witnesses' names which might tell us whether Richard and Maria were still in Sydney at the date of the marriage. Maria would have required permission from parents to marry because of her age.
There are a few thoughts floating around that the family perhaps went to the U.K. to visit the oldest daughter, Margaret, left behind in Ireland, or that perhaps there was an inheritance to be claimed. They would have needed an inheritance because I roughly calculated that the passage money would have been about three years' pay as soldiers were not paid generously. The family would have had to live frugally for a number of years to afford passage money unless there was a windfall from elsewhere.
Lots of links to look at (thank you).