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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: JOOBLES on Thursday 27 June 13 23:28 BST (UK)
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Oh dear ........ I've just found a London newspaper report relating to one of 'my lot' who was sentenced to 18 months 'hard labour' in October 1875. He was a watchmaker / repairer who kept some of his customers' gold watches, pawned them and kept the money for himself !
Henry Scott, aged 37 was living in Hammersmith at the time so I'm wondering where he would have been imprisoned. The report said, "He made no defence and held a handkerchief to his eyes."
Pity the sentencing isn't as harsh for today's criminals.
Hope some kind soul can assist me please.
Julie
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Ancestry's "England & Wales, Criminal Registers, 1791-1892" don't tell you the name of the prison. However, if I were to guess I would say that it would be one in the same county (Middlesex).
The most obvious one would be Wormwood Scrubs, if it was open at that time.
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Hi
Don't envy this task, the full list must be quite big.
"Clink" springs to mind immediately
The Bishop of Winchester’s prison ("Clink" in Southwark, Museum still there in Clink Street)
Then . . . . .
Fleet, Marshalsea Southwark, Bench(es) Southwark
Whitechapel Prison, Tower Hamlets Gaol, St Catherine’s Gaol, Westminster Gatehouse.
Does it depend upon where the crime (then court) was carried out?
Is there a central register somewhere? (Dawn? Valda? - help!)
Ray
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Oh dear, quite a few possibilities then !!
Thank-you for your input.
Julie
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Hi
He only got 10 months for that offence, although there are a number of cases around that time for a "Henry Scott".
Where does he show up in 1881?
Ray
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Oh, so where did you get that info. Ray ? The London Standard Newspaper report of Oct.19th 1875 said 18 months so is it recorded elsewhere then ?
I haven't looked for him in the 1881 census because his wife remarried in 1878 and on the marriage cert. she describes herself as a widow. I haven't found his death which I would like to do.
Julie
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There are 3 possible deaths between 1875-1878 in London:
1876 Holborn aged 37 (Henry Scott)
1876 Shoreditch aged 39 (Henry Lily Scott)
1877 Whitechapel aged 41 (Henry Walter Scott)
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So the window for his death his very narrow - 1875 - 1878. I wonder if he died in prison,
With a birth year around 1838, there are these possible deaths (assuming he is in London area)
AMJ 1876 Shoreditch - Henry Lily Scott age 39
JFM 1876 Holborn - Henry Scott age 37
JFM 1877 Whitechapel - Henry Walter Scott age 41
Did yours have a middle name?
If he didnt, and also age-wise, the Holborn one looks good!
Snap :)
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Yes, I agree, that's the very death I've just found.
He didn't have a middle name so it all looks to be right. Shame I can't see what's on the death certificate before buying it !!
Julie
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You may also have to take in the possibility that he term was served in a prison outside of London.
Rather like today you can be sent all over the country.
And in those days I would imagine that it was far more common, just to make life horrible for the prisoner and his family.
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The London Metropolitan Archives has published a useful leaflet here
http://www.cityoflondon.gov.uk/things-to-do/visiting-the-city/archives-and-city-history/london-metropolitan-archives/Documents/visitor-information/59-prison-records.pdf
Dawn
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Hi
[ Sorry for being a little late for this answer ]
Anc...ytr has the detail for the crime records.
Shout if you cannot find.
Ray
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Thanks Ray, I'm no longer a member of An....ry, I spent quite a few quid over time but hardly found anything for my family so I left !!
Julie
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Dawn - thanks for that info. page, I'll have a look.
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Hi
Picked a few from the list of "Henry Scott" cases (they are needn't be ALL him?)
Clerkenwell 1870 12 September
Embezzlement
6 months
Clerkenwell 1875 10 May
Larceny & receiving
10 months
Clerkenwell 1875 18 October
Larceny & receiving
18 months
Old Bailey 12 Dec 1878
Attempted Burglary and former conviction
6 calendar months
THEN, a really interesting one
Nottinghamshire 20 October 1886
George Frederick Hamilton "alias Henry Scott"
Larceny Simple
Prior conviction proved
12 calendar months (imprisonment column)
3 years hard labour (under police supervision column)
Ray
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Ray, thank-you very much for that info.
The 18th Oct. 1875 is certainly him and as for the bottom entry - well how exciting would that be ?!!
His wife remarried in 1878 and described herself as a 'widow' and there is a death entry in 1876 that seems very possible.
I'll have to take a gamble and pay the fee to get that copy death certificate I think - then I'll know for sure.
Kind regards and thanks again.
Julie
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Don't think 1886 is him
Free British Newspaper Archive search brings up
21 October 1886 , Nottingham Evening Post
"... Hamilton, alias Henry Scott, aged 19, engraver, pleaded guilty to stealing two silver Geneva watches, of the value of £3,.."
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That's interesting Mabel, thankyou. The age is way off so that's definitely not him then !
I'm sure he died in 1876 so I'll order that certificate to hopefully sort it all out.
Julie
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I would also love to know exactly what he would have done regarding 'hard labour' - on the treadmill perhaps ?
He was sentenced at Clerkenwell Sessions House, Middlesex in October 1875 so I wonder if he would have been held in the Clerkenwell prison for a while before being sent to wherever he served his time. If they got 18 months would they have actually served the full time ? If so, then he must have died in prison if the death entry is correct - I'll let you know !
So, I've ordered the 1876 death certificate which will be here in a few days so that will establish if he died in prison - so many questions !!
Julie
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Aha - had some of the questions answered -
Henry died after serving only 4 months of his sentence in the Middlesex House of Correction.
Died on Feb. 24th 1876. Cause of death - bronchitis 'etat' ? (not sure what etat means, could be Not, Nat ??)
Inquest held 26.2.1876 ..... so where can I find the inquest records please ??
Would he have been buried in the prison cemetery or would his body have been released to his widow to arrange a funeral ?
Julie
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Oh dear ........ I've just found a London newspaper report relating to one of 'my lot' who was sentenced to 18 months 'hard labour' in October 1875. He was a watchmaker / repairer who kept some of his customers' gold watches, pawned them and kept the money for himself !
Henry Scott, aged 37 was living in Hammersmith at the time so I'm wondering where he would have been imprisoned. The report said, "He made no defence and held a handkerchief to his eyes."
Pity the sentencing isn't as harsh for today's criminals.
Hope some kind soul can assist me please.
Julie
My great grandfather went into bankruptcy about the same time and I feel sorry for your relative, who (it seems to me) didn't sell his customers property which they'd asked him to repair, but pawned the watch(es) when business tailed off, hoping he could sell some of his own stock, and with the sales money he could redeem his client's property and return it in a repaired condition.
I feel this (below) could be relevant to your ancestors position:-
One of the reasons my ancestor gave for the downturn in his fortunes was the American Civil War (1861-1865), which affected the fortunes of everyone in the UK at the time because the North barricaded the Southern states, with the result that our ships couldn't gain access to that market. When the market was eventually opened business didn't resume at the same high level.
After bankruptcy, my ancestor sent one of his sons to South Africa to try to drum up trade - unfortunately, there was no upturn in trade as his son died far away from home in 1879.
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That's interesting Rena, I never thought of it like that.
Julie
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That's interesting Rena, I never thought of it like that.
Julie
At that time the majority didn't have a time piece -they relied on the church clock, or the factory hooter, or the dawn chorus, etc. He would have supplied the rich and the owners of factories and shops, etc. and we all know this last decade from the number of closed factories and shops in the high street that when money stops flowing it doesn't gush back into the country but just trickles in.
I bet your ancestor was really afraid for his family. He wasn't from the unskilled labour "class". His father had obviously paid for his apprenticeship but if he couldn't pay for schooling and apprenticeships for his offspring what was to become of them and his wife? Since I read your posting I have wondered if his wife managed to survive or did she have to apply to the church poorbox or to the workhouse for shelter.
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Hi Rena,
His wife went on to have a good financial future ! She remarried but was widowed again then married a third time to a man 30 years her junior !!! Her parents were wealthy and left her a property in 1876 so she later died in 1924 a wealthy old lady so it was a happy ending for her.
Julie
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Died on Feb. 24th 1876. Cause of death - bronchitis 'etat' ? (not sure what etat means, could be Not, Nat ??)
Inquest held 26.2.1876 ..... so where can I find the inquest records please ??
Julie
Hi Julie
Don't hold out too much hope for coroners records... You might be lucky though. The LMA has a leaflet here
http://www.cityoflondon.gov.uk/things-to-do/visiting-the-city/archives-and-city-history/london-metropolitan-archives/Documents/visitor-information/41-coroners-records-for-london-and-middlesex.pdf
Dawn
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Thanks Dawn - now I just need to find someone who can visit - I'm a very long way from them unfortunately :(