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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Topic started by: Rainyk on Saturday 15 June 13 12:39 BST (UK)
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Hi all i have an ancestor that has me intrigued,
Francis Gladston Forsyth
Born : 3 Aug 1878 Chipping Barnet England to
James francis Forsythe 1836 - 1908
Charlotte Sarah Field 1844 - 1896
Married Elizabeth Westman 28 Sept 1910 Johannesburg Sth Africa
Died 3 Aug 1956 Gymea Bay, New South Wales, Australia
Apart from his birth certificate (i have from GRO) i can find no other record of Francis in England or of him leaving England to Sth Africa. Family story goes ( may or may not be correct ) he went to Sth Africa looking for gold and met Elizabeth in a hospital she was volunteering in nursing soldiers from the Boer war and followed her home.
I looked in the 1891 Census and cant see him or his family. I cant seem to find him on any outgoing passenger list i have access to.
Is anyone able to help me find him ?
Thanks in advance
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Hi
There is a Charlotte S Forsythe 'visiting' the family of a James and Maria Borland in the 1891 census of Camberwell London. Also 'boarding' is a Francis Forsyth aged 12 born Herts. Hertford.
Class RG12 Piece 468 Folio 108 Page 1.
claire
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This could be the family in 1881, but he doesn't appear to be with them. Jasnet has been amended to James on the transcription
RG11; Piece: 1369; Folio: 76; Page: 82 Chipping Barnet
Jasnet Forsythe 44 Farmer Of 90 Acres Of Land Employing 2 Men Caithness, Scotland
Charlotte Forsythe 34 London, Middlesex,
Sidney J. Forsythe 11 Brixton, Surrey
Lionel G. Forsythe 7 Brixton, Surrey
Kate Wiffen 20 servant
Clara Dunks 14 servant
John Wetherstone 32 servant
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Thank you Claire, That looks promising !
Groom Thank You, yes that has me quite confused, Francis would have been 3 and his sister Annie would have been 10 and neither of them are there and i cant find them anywhere else ???
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1881 census West Ham
no 308 Romford Road
Sophia Fields hd wid 75 ??? and house property bn Middlesex St George
Charlotte ?? 22 general Dom. Servant
Annie Forsyth 9 grand daughter scholar bn Brixham Surrey
FRANK GLADSTON 2 grandson bn Barnet
Class: RG11; Piece: 1721; Folio: 12; Page: 19
claire
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Good find, Claire - so they were with their grandmother. Remember that the census only shows where they were that night, they may just have been visiting for a few days rather than living with her. Were there any children younger than Francis, if so they may have been sent away while she was having the next baby?
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WooHoo Great find Thank You !!!
Charlotte's Mother is Sophia Field nee Luton
You guys Rock ;D
Groom, yes there was Lionel 1884 and Charlotte 1883, not quite the right time for the census though.
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charlotte sarah field 1865-1896, is the birth date a typo
added, if born in 1865 she surely cannot be Francis and Annie's mother
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Wonder if this is brother Lionel's probate record,
Lionel George Forsythe of 'Greens Hotel' Hastings Sussex died on or about 1st May 1890 at sea, administration London 7 Feb. 1905 to James Forsythe farmer.
Effect: £23 4s 5d.
claire
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Hi all i have an ancestor that has me intrigued,
Francis Gladston Forsyth
Born : 3 Aug 1878 Chipping Barnet England to
James francis Forsythe 1836 - 1908
Charlotte Sarah Field 1865 - 1896
Married Elizabeth Westman 28 Sept 1910 Johannesburg Sth Africa
Died 3 Aug 1956 Gymea Bay, New South Wales, Australia
Apart from his birth certificate (i have from GRO) i can find no other record of Francis in England or of him leaving England to Sth Africa. Family story goes ( may or may not be correct ) he went to Sth Africa looking for gold and met Elizabeth in a hospital she was volunteering in nursing soldiers from the Boer war and followed her home.
I looked in the 1891 Census and cant see him or his family. I cant seem to find him on any outgoing passenger list i have access to.
Is anyone able to help me find him ?
Thanks in advance
Young Frank Forsythe age 12 is a boarder in East Dulwich in 1891, mother Charlotte S, age 45, is a visitor to the house of James Borland, an iron merchant, at 8 Strathdene Villas. RG12/468
I might say that the chronology of the events you describe is suspect. A great many young men are missing from the 1901 census because they had enlisted to fight in the Second Boer War - 1901/1902. It is unlikely that his bride was still nursing sick and injured of that war much after 1903 and they married only in 1910. That would be an abnormally long courtship for those days unless the bride had an earlier husband.
Looking for gold? The gold rush was pretty well over. Alluvial pannings at Barberton and at Pilgrims Rest has ceased and underground mines were in controlled syndicates. He may well have decided to stay in South Africa on discharge and worked on the Witwatersrand gold mines. That would place him in Johannesburg. Elizabeth may have been born South Africa as the only one of appropriate age to be found in our 1891 census is a 15 year old dressmakers apprentice.
Do you have any further details of Elizabeth?
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Young Frank Forsythe age 12 is a boarder in East Dulwich in 1891, mother Charlotte S, age 45, is a visitor to the house of James Borland, an iron merchant, at 8 Strathdene Villas. RG12/468
I might say that the chronology of the events you describe is suspect. A great many young men are missing from the 1901 census because they had enlisted to fight in the Second Boer War - 1901/1902. It is unlikely that his bride was still nursing sick and injured of that war much after 1903 and they married only in 1910. That would be an abnormally long courtship for those days unless the bride had an earlier husband.
Looking for gold? The gold rush was pretty well over. Alluvial pannings at Barberton and at Pilgrims Rest has ceased and underground mines were in controlled syndicates. He may well have decided to stay in South Africa on discharge and worked on the Witwatersrand gold mines. That would place him in Johannesburg. Elizabeth may have been born South Africa as the only one of appropriate age to be found in our 1891 census is a 15 year old dressmakers apprentice.
Do you have any further details of Elizabeth?
Yes the Family story dose seem to be off doesn't it. this is why i said may not be correct and why i want to find how he got from England to Sth Africa so we can know what is fact and fiction.
Elizabeth was born in Blanco, George, Sth Africa 27 Dec 1880
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Hi
Obviously Mazi and I have same problem, so in case helps. . . . . .
1865 Mother Charlotte was not born 1865, that's when they got married (27/7/1865)
1878 Birth registered as Francis Gladstone Forsyth QDec 1878 Barnet 3a 176
1891 Francis Forsythe not Frank
[ Father James visitting Caithness? Where he was born ]
[ Borland born Glasgow, Connection? Was young Borland his tutor and/or family friends? ]
In case they also turn up in SA
1870 Sibling Sidney J
1874 Sibling Lionel G
Ray
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https://www.forces-war-records.co.uk
This brilliant site does not list Francis or Frank Forsythe as a soldier in the Boer War so that theory goes out the window.
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1871 in Brixton (71 Loughboro Park)
James Forsyth/head/34 /Meat Salesman /Scotland
Charlotte /wife/ 34 /London
Sidney /son/ 1 /London
Sophia Field/mother/64/ Dublin
+ cook and housemaid
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Father James is in lodgings in Kings Langley in 1901. Birthplace looks like Castlebre? in Caithness.
He's a widower, aged 65
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Ray,
James Forsythe was born 6 March 1836 Castle Brims, Caithness, Scotland.
Charlotte Sarah Feild, 27 July 1865 16 Feb 1844 london England.
the Borland name has not come up anywhere else that i know of but you may very well be right.
As far as i know none of the brothers or sisters went to Sth Africa.
Siblings:
Sidney James Forsythe
1870 –
Annie "Daisy" Sophia Forsyth
1871 – 1956
Lionel George Forsythe
1874 –
Charlotte "Poppy" Euphemia Ethel Forsyth
1883 – 1967
Hackstaple, Iv been unable to find him in any kind of military record. He really has me Confused.
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I really cannot see that Francis' mother Charlotte could have been born in 1865. That would have made her 13 when Francis was born. Also Francis had older sibs. That Charlotte may have been a sister.
The 1891 census marks mother Charlotte as born about 1846
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Yes you are right they married 27 July 1865
Charlotte born 16 Feb 1844
Sorry my mind is a little scrambled with this guy.
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Hi
The Leonard George Forsythe (who died at 'Greens Hotel' Hastings) probate record I gave is probably the brother of Francis, found this
JAMES BORLAND of Greens Hotel Hastings retired commercial traveller died 26 July 1893. Probate London 16 August to Francis James Borland, tutor.
£4031 19s.
claire
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Re Green's Hotel there's this entry in Kelly's Directory of Kent, Surrey & Sussex for 1891:
Green's Hotel, James Forsythe, 1 Havelock Road Hastings
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James Forsythe is at Green's Hotel in 1891 with daughter Annie, a couple of boarders and several servants.
RG12/763/49/17. Indexed on Anc...y as Farythe
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Sydney Forsythe married Frances (Fanny) Hamilton in Hastings in 1895. The had a son Gery Hamilton Forsythe the following year,
Fanny was the founder of Cyclax http://www.cosmeticsandskin.com/companies/cyclax.php
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclax
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What a great find !! :)
claire
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Thank you Claire and Shaun, you seem to be correct about the Greens hotel !
Shaun, Yes that is correct shes quite an interesting lady :D
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A Sydney Forsyth of Green's Hotel, Hastings was cited as one of 3 co-respondents in the initial divorce petition of Deussen v Deussen, 1895-6
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Thank you Shaun iv not seen that one before, are you able to PM me a link to your finding?
After going back through my interview notes there was mention of Francics looking for gold in the Yukon ( Canada ??? ) then on to Sth Africa.
Dose this seem more plausible? I'm at the end of my experience trying to find him leaving England and hoping someone here may have a bright idea to help my search.
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Thank you Shaun iv not seen that one before, are you able to PM me a link to your finding?
After going back through my interview notes there was mention of Francics looking for gold in the Yukon ( Canada ??? ) then on to Sth Africa.
Dose this seem more plausible? I'm at the end of my experience trying to find him leaving England and hoping someone here may have a bright idea to help my search.
Well the Yukon gold strike commenced in 1897 so that fits the chronology. Rough living :(
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There is a private tree on Ancestry which has the following photos linked to Francis Gladstone Forsyth (born 1878):
Francis Forsyth (Portrait)
Benalla (Portrait)
Passage Ticket (Document)
Francis Forsyth (Portrait)
Forsyth Family (Portrait)
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Thanks Hackstaple,
I'm not that familiar with that part of history so really dosn't seem to work in my mind, however who knows what our ancestors were thinking when they did things ;)
Shaun, That may be my tree if it is it will be the ticket for the Benalla ( Sth Africa to Australia ) Ill pm you my tree name to check
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Maybe something, but may be nothing; there is this entry in the catalog of the Trent Valley archives in Ontario:
Fonds 237 Gladstone Forsythe
Fonds include menus from the James Robert Stratton banquet (1899), the T. Franks Matthews Banquet (1920), two booklets on sewing, darning and patching (1914), Ladies Home Journal (1922), a manual on how to make draperies (1929), a pamphlet on Empire Day (1947), a copy of Homecoming ’75 Souvenir Edition (1975), a detailed Chadwick family tree, as well as cards and household receipts related to Gladstone Forsythe.
http://www.trentvalleyarchives.com/resources/online-resources/archival-fonds/fonds-201---250
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Following this thread with interest as I too have a relative who was in South Africa by 1910, with no record found so far of how he got there (or of his return to England by 1914)
Good luck with finding your Francis
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Sorry guys have been away,
Thank you ShaunJ, im not sure i understand that but i will investigate further!!
Hi halhawk, I hope you have better luck then i am, so far i cant find anything that even slightly resembles his passage to sth africa its really frustrating LoL
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Hi everyone,
Have been looking with interest at this site as Francis Gladstone was my great grandfather. I do not have a great deal of info but will help you if possible. He was born on the 3rd August 1878 chipping Barnet England, married on the 28th Sep 1910 in Johannesburg S.Africa to Elizabeth Westman and died on the 3rd Aug 1956 at Gymea Bay. He was a sailor and served his time on the "Neotsfield". I do not know anymore than this about his time as a sailor. It is believed that he jumped ship at south Africa and stayed there. He possibly could have been injured as he met Elizabeth at the Port Elizabeth hospital. They had 2 children out of wedlock, married, had another child then moved to Australia on the Benalla. He worked in various positions in South Africa - a policeman? barman at the Belgrave? none of which has been substantiated just info passed down in the family.
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Wonder if this is brother Lionel's probate record,
Lionel George Forsythe of 'Greens Hotel' Hastings Sussex died on or about 1st May 1890 at sea, administration London 7 Feb. 1905 to James Forsythe farmer.
Effect: £23 4s 5d.
claire
"Yes you are correct"
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Hi myspace4jay, it dose seem we are looking for the same fellow. Once you make a few more posts you will be able to access the Privet Message part of the site when you do let me know and we can compare notes.
This is actually my husbands Family and Francis Gladston Forsyth his great grandfather he descended from Francis daughter Amelia.
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If anyone is connected to this family, please get in touch. I am researching the family of the mother of Gery Hamilton Forsythe - the lady who founded Cyclax. I have been having great fun researching my extended family and would like to make a connection to this part of the family. My 2nd Gt Grandmother was the sister to the father of Fanny Hamilton.
Fingers crossed for some connections to come my way!.
Jackie