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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Norfolk => Topic started by: Duodecem on Tuesday 11 June 13 13:55 BST (UK)
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The 1861 census showed that my 3x great grandfather, an agricultural labourer and several members of his family had travelled from Norfolk to Northumberland to find work, many of them ending up in the coal mines of Northumberland and Durham.
I gather that conditions for agricultural workers in Norfolk were particularly poor in the C19th. This made me wonder where other Norfolk workers ended up? Was it more common to travel up the coast to the North East or did others travel west to Wales or to the factories of the North West? (None of my ancestors seem to have travelled abroad to work until the C20th. Perhaps others were more venturesome.) I don't suppose my ancestors were the only economic migrants so where did they all go?
(I recently posted an enquiry on the Northumberland board if anyone is interested. http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,649914.0.html)
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my hubby has got his 3rd gtgrandfather coming up from Norfolk to The Brighouse area of west Yorkshire in the 1870's. he was an ag lab and went into the mills up in Yorkshire. some of his family did travel further afield to America and Australia.
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My great grandmother's parents and some siblings moved to Prestwich in the 1870s from Marham in Norfolk. George and Frances Bowman had 11 children. The eldest, John, moved to Middlesborough, then Durham. One brother stayed in Hulme, one sister moved to Southport and another to Stockport, one to London and my great grandmother herself took a job as maid in Clayton le Moors near Accrington. cb
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hubby;s family clayton were just up the road in wormegay and tottenhill. his parents moved to Lincolnshire and his grandfather moved to Birmingham like u said just for the jobs..
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My 3 x GG Robert Hall moved from Reepham to East Yorkshire, he never returned, some of his extended family members moved overseas.
bendywendy
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I think I've seen it called "the East Anglian diaspora". I was surprised by how many went north rather than going to London, cb
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Is it possible that there were more job opportunities for unskilled labourers and more accommodation available in the North than in London? Of my family that went North the father/grandfather remained a farm labourer, so London obviously wouldn't have suited him and he was probably too old at 65 to begin other labouring work.
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My great grandfather left Norfolk in 1871 for work in the north east and ended up I Jarrow. Still have relatives living In Tyne & Wear. However my father (his grandson) ended up stationed I Norfolk during the war, married a Norfolk girl and completed the circle!
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After more research on my Norfolk Hall clans, several families moved to the North East & West Yorkshire to work in the mines and remained there, many females moved to London to do domestic work and remained there, some families moved to Canada to farm - but many of them remained in Norfolk and still do.
bendywendy
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I have "Ag Lab" ancestors that moved from Hertfordshire to Wales in order to seek work. Some seem to have travelled long distances.
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Jeremy Paxman's Who Do You Think You Are? programme related how his ancestors took part in a scheme to relocate from Framlingham, just over the border in Suffolk, to Bradford to take up guaranteed offers of work in the mills.
I recently came across a report from the Bury & Norwich Post in 1830 that said: '78 men women and children passed through Bury [St Edmunds] from Diss, Palgrave and Wortham and 59 from Winfarthing and Shelfhanger in two stage wagons on their way to London to take shipping to America.'
These towns and villages were all areas where there were Riots during the 1820s. I understand that there was a scheme by which the parish helped emigration as a response to these riots. Some emigrants ended up in the East Coast cities of the USA, where conditions where little better than at home. Others went to agricultural areas, acquired land, and prospered.
So I think that the answer to your question must be: quite a long way.
My great-grandfather moved from Diss to London in about 1880. His elder brother had moved to Burnley before 1871 and then to Halifax.
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I've got Norfolk & Suffolk ancestors who moved to Hull, Lancashire (near Lake District) ancestors who moved to Hull and a g.grandfather who apparently moved from Bethnal Green to Hull, Cambridgeshire ones who moved to Lincolnshire, West Yorkshire and Lincolnshire ancestors who moved to Manchester. Some from Cheshire who moved to Manchester (not that far). Seems they just all moved around the country.
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hi ron,
what was your greatgrandfather;s surname. got relatives that moved from diss to Halifax and Brighouse.
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hi ron,
what was your greatgrandfather;s surname. got relatives that moved from diss to Halifax and Brighouse.
Their surname was Banham. It was my GG-grandfather's half-brother, Henry William, who moved to Halifax. He was a brushmaker. Oddly, he had a reasonable job in the brush factory in Diss but still decided to move; maybe he lost that job. I gather that was a regular occurrence when boys got to the age at which they would be due to be paid men's rates.
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My wife's maternal and paternal grandparents originated in Norfolk. Nurse from Weybourne, Grieves(Greaves) from Brancaster and Julnes from Kings Lynn and migrated north to Sunderland and South Shields in the 1870s. Indications are that they were "mariners" or Ag Labs.
Some folk were much more adventurous of course and I have recently been researching a person from West Raynham who married a girl from the Wisbech area and they promptly emigrated to Australia (1855). He was a blacksmith/wheelwright so his trade was an asset to him in making the decision to journey across the world.
radstockjeff
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hi ron
How unusual is that, the name im researching is Barkham, and they lived in diss and westwards towards Kings Lynn.
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Hi everyone
I am tying in another thread about Migration Workers on RC:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=321782.0
bendywendy
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Found more examples of family moving from Norfolk to Leeds in the late 1870's. These family members
still did the same job in Norfolk as Leeds so strange why they moved. Bootmakers and weavers in the mills. maybe it was better money up north.
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My ancestors were based in South Lincs and Cambridgeshire, both next door to Norfolk, and victims of the same agricultural slump. Cambridgeshire ancestors went to Middlesborough (crane driving in 1891) Rotherham (steel worker 1891) Australia and USA. Lincolnshire ancestors went to Canada; at least 2 from the same family, one of whom returned later.
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Some of my Massinghams moved away in the mid-19th century, from Langham, North Norfolk, to work in coalfields or in Manchester.
My gt-uncle Samuel Henry Gray moved up to work in Armstrong's munitions factory in Newcastle-upon-Tyne, before joining the Metropolitan Police. Three of his brothers also joined the Met and another brother joined the City of London police, in the late 1890s. My grandfather Jeuel Jabez Gray was too short so worked in London for the Cannon Brewery and then Tanqueray the gin distillers, before moving into photograph enlarging and framing.
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Like Jeuel I have ancestors who moved from Norfolk (Marsham) to London to join the Met Police, my Gt Gt grandfather William and two of his brothers, James and Edmund, they all returned to Norfolk after retiring though.
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My ancestors on my fathers side all originated from Tharston, Stratton St Mary/Micheal area of Norfolk with the family name of Hunt. However unlike many others who have written that their ancestors moved North and elsewhere mine moved south into Essex. where they continued to be farm labourers.
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My Dad had to go to Norfolk to find work in the early 1930's. He and Mum were newly married so he found employment with the East Anglia Electricity company and was based in Hunstanton then Heacham. Although a qualified electrician he had to extend his capabilities to climbing Poles and cable jointing.
Mum's sister, my Auntie Vera passed away just over a week ago, just short of her 99th Birthday. Her husband Len Crick died a few years earlier. But what I found most remarkable was his likeness to a friend we had here in Melbourne some twenty years ago whose maiden surname was Crick. There was an amazing similarity in features, almost like looking at the same person, but she was from Suffolk and Uncle Len was from Consett, Co. Durham.
When I did a little digging I found that his family in Consett in 1891 gave their place of birth as Suffolk.
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I hadn't realised, until reading this thread, how many people from Norfolk moved elsewhere through poverty. My maternal great-grandfather John Rich (born Surlingham 1855) was from a family of agricultural workers (his father died of heart disease aged 42); he seems to have given up trying to find work locally and, late in 1874, hiked to Cambridge where he signed up with the Marines. His service took him around the world and he eventually settled in Holyhead in 1890, marrying a local girl in 1893. As far as I can discover, he never returned to Norfolk.
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I hadn't realised, until reading this thread, how many people from Norfolk moved elsewhere through poverty. My maternal great-grandfather John Rich (born Surlingham 1855) was from a family of agricultural workers (his father died of heart disease aged 42); he seems to have given up trying to find work locally and, late in 1874, hiked to Cambridge where he signed up with the Marines. His service took him around the world and he eventually settled in Holyhead in 1890, marrying a local girl in 1893. As far as I can discover, he never returned to Norfolk.
What a shame in a way that he didn't go back to the Broads, Amlodhi. I know them well as we used to represent Blakes Holidays in Australia and I used to take travel agents on educationals there, on the boats. Many years ago now.
At least your ancestors were on the right side of Naarich (Norwich) for there are stories about the people of Swaffham, e.g. The Pedlar of Swaffham. I had occasion a couple of days ago to look closely at that town and its people, begun because of something I remembered my mother teaching me. It went something like this, "Aall the way to Swaarfham, just for a day's traaashen' and that's narfen'." I did find it mentioned in a Norfolk blog, but what I really found interesting was that Wikipedia tells that the origin of the name comes from Old English Swaeffe Ham, meaning the home of the Swabians. Now this immediately struck a bell as only moments before I had been checking up on the Schwabians who have a similar reputation in Germany. In fact Wikipedia says that the Swiss and Austrians use the term 'Schwab' as a derogatory for all Germans. The Grimm brothers tale of Die Sieben Schwaben - The Seven Schwabians illustrates it. They wore odd looking tall conical hats and seven of them took an immensely long Spear and ventured out only to be stopped by a Rabbit which scared them literally to death in the river.
My point then is that the people of Norfolk have always been incomers through necessity from the Angles and Swabians down to the Flemings who came to weave and the Dutch who drained the Fens and created Holland in Lincolnshire.
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Thanks for this, Malcolm33. We’ll never know my G-grandfather’s thoughts, although he was undoubtedly happier in Holyhead with his wife, the poverty of his youth being way behind him. Sadly, married life didn’t last long as he was drowned in an accident in Holyhead harbour in 1902 - just 9 years into the marriage. But at least it lasted long enough to beget my grandfather (his own mother died in the Henstead Poorhouse in 1908 – whether he or she knew what became of each other will also never be known).
But your information on the Dutch in East Anglia is fascinating. My G-grandfather’s ancestor, born around 1709, was one Jonas Rich – not exactly an English name. I can find no record of his birth/baptism in any parish record, so it would seem he came from elsewhere. Could he possibly have been Dutch, or even German? Who knows!
I’ve only visited the Broads once so far – in 2009 - but I was sufficiently enchanted by them to want to go back. Hopefully I’ll manage it this year. I’ve managed to trace the Rich family to the villages of Woodton, Loddon and Surlingham (lots of the Rich family are buried in St Mary’s Church graveyard in the last). More research may uncover more.
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Amlodhi
I am a member of the Norfolk Family History Society, if I can help in any way with your family history let me know.
bendywendy
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That's extremely kind of you Bendywendy.
As you will have read, I can find no trace of the birth of Jonas Rich. His marriage in 1741 to Mary Buxton in Woodton is there, as is his death, also in Woodton, in 1773. But no birth. The parish register records his age at death as 64, giving the year of birth as c 1709.
I hope at some stage this year to get back to Norwich and visit the Records Office (I live in SW London), but no idea when as yet due to other family considerations. In the meantime, if you are able to devote a little time to looking for Jonas (and any forebears if they become apparent), I'd be very grateful.
Kind regards
Amlodhi
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There is a Johans Rich on Free Reg,son of Thomae and Marthae, baptised East Harling (20 miles East of Woodton), March 1701/1702. The names are obviously in Latin as they often were in early C18th registers. It's possible that Johans was known as Jonas rather than the more common John.
http://freereg.rootsweb.com/cgi/SearchResults.pl?RecordType=Baptisms&RecordID=4401712
This Johans obviously died because there is another baptism on the 8th October 1708, which fits in with your estimated dob-this time the parents' surname is recorded as the commoner Riches
http://freereg.rootsweb.com/cgi/SearchResults.pl?RecordType=Baptisms&RecordID=4443342
It could be your Jonas -spelling was notoriously variable then-It's certainly worth checking the parish register for East Harling
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Thanks for this, Jan - definitely a route to investigate. Interestingly, Jonas' name for his first four children was recorded as Jonas in parish records, but for his last two (both John) it was recorded as Jonah. Spelling was indeed cavalier, to say the least! The only downside of this is that, with naming traditions in those days, Johans' parents' names, Thomas and Martha, could reasonably be expected to figure in younger generations, but there is no mention of them in the Rich family.
As you say, it is something to check out more closely for that parish. But thanks again for your help.
Amlodhi
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My gt gt grandfather's brother and family moved from Stoke Ferry in Norfolk (Daniel Munton family - Daniel born 1800 in Oxborough his parents from Stoke Ferry ) to New York. He was involved in the building of the Capitol Building in Albany N Y. His sons and their family moved out west to build the railroads.
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My gg g/f moved from the Broads area (Langley) to Leeds in the late 1830s and shortly afterwards moved to Hull. Two of his brothers joined him there. Another branch of the family moved from Lowestoft Yarmouth area to Tyneside. Later, we find one of the men who stayed behind and worked as a fisherman, selling fish in Hull, where it must surely have been bought (in part at least) by my relative who was the first proprietor of a fish and chip shop that has carried his name for 4 generations.
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My gt gt grandfather charles henry bunn born east dereham norfolk c1854 became a sailor but by 1870s eas in middlrsbrough marrying mary ann packer who was born in torquay devon. they had a daughter elizabeth who married a joseph hazel. his father james llares hazel had also been born in norfolk at lexham. do it does seem as if there was a big migration to the north east at that time. charles ended up as an ironworker.
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A lot of interesting family histories here - no doubt that agricultural poverty hit East Anglia hard in the first half of C19, a result of cheaper wheat, etc, having started to be imported from the USA.
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To Janfurness
Hi Jan - I've found another, possibly stronger, candidate for Jonas Rich (birth c 1709) on FreeReg - it is one John Rich, baptised in St Andrew's, Hingham on 20 November 1712. His father is recorded as being a John Rich as well, which follows the naming convention i have seen throughout almost all the Rich generations. Are there any records I could check to see if he moved from Hingham to Woodton?
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I can't think of any records that early that would trace the movement of someone from their place of birth to their place of marriage and death. The record I found was about 20 miles East of Woodton and your record is about the same distance North West. Since you have Johns in your tree but no Thomas or Martha I would say your record is possible-though not certain of course. He may have moved for work -or because he met his future wife and moved to her home area.
I don't know if this link will work but it's the Woodton parish register burial record from Familysearch which gives his age at death as 64.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-12124-33636-54?cc=1416598
If the link works it may help you search for his birth.
The problem with finding possible records is that there may be a definite in the same or adjacent parish, but the record is lost or damaged and unreadable.
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Thank you very much indeed for that link, Jan - it clearly showed Jonas' age at death as 64. The age of Johans at death that year would have been 72 or so, arguably quite an error, even for those days. Given the naming convention as well, I think the John Rich born 1712 is the better of the two possibilities, although this must be investigated more fully at a later date. To further muddy the waters, I also found a couple of baptisms for Jonas Rich in Yorkshire ......
Using your link, I was also able to look at the original marriage entry for Jonas Rich on 31 March 1741, and there is an extra word next to his forename. Although almost totally illegible, it could just possibly be a J starting it, raising the possibility that it is another forename. I think I would need to view the original document with a magnifying glass in order to confirm or refute that. Have you had a look at it?
But thanks again for your help in this.