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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: cristiane on Monday 03 June 13 23:10 BST (UK)
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I have a direct maternal ancestor born in 1818 in Cambria, certificate states this name of birthplace. The certificate has very good and clear writing, no way to make an error in reading it.
Her father was in the Royal Artillery at the time of her birth and that of her siblings.
Ruth was the only child (first born) to be born here, the others were born in actual English counties.
Had made contact with Wales and they were not helpful at all, told me to contact Cumbria in England.
I had checked the Cambria name and it stated on the internet that it was also another name for Wales.
Ruth has multiple references of her birth on the Military births Overseas indexes.
I spoke to a person in the Lancashire office for ordering certificates and she said I should order all those references of birth.
A very expensive way to do it, especially if they all end up having the same details (and I live in Australia).
I was hoping to speak to the gentleman who deals with the military Births, Deaths and Marriages, but he was not at work that day. Was a shame, as he was very helpful when I spoke to him previously when needing to order certificates.
Am also interested in finding out the areas that the R.A. was based in Wales, also if there is some-one who can help shed some light on this placename.
Thanking anyone in advance for assistance.
from Cristiane.
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hi,,can you post some details,,,her full name,,,her fathers name,,,when and where her father was born if known? ;)
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It cannot be Cumbria. Cumbria was a political action combining Cumberland and Westmorland, a part of Lancashire and apparently a small part of Yorkshire into one "County" in 1974. Just as Blumberg, South Australia was renamed Birdwood in 1917 and dachshund dogs were attacked in the streets of England during Word War One the renaming of English, Scottish and Welsh counties was in vogue in 1974.
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Dont worry about spending all that money!!!!! You wont be able to order any certificates anyway, as 1818 is before Civil Registration began in 1837
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Ruth has multiple references of her birth on the Military births Overseas indexes.
I don't understand "multiple references", but the Military births Overseas index should show where she was born. Wales would not be overseas. As 'gortonboy' suggests more details would help.
Stan
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Found this by a process of elimination from cristiane's surname list while waiting for the builder ~
She is a Ruth Lovatt from the GRO Regimental Births Vol RA17 P 106 or Vol RA 22 P 48 or RA 29 64. All 1818.
Place given without Country. All typed out - clearly Cambria. Suggest that cristiane contacts GRO about it but not sure if they would know either. Maybe someone on the Armed Forces board might know where the RA were in 1818. There are various lists. Liverpool Annie was a dab hand with them.
Added - or maybe follow her up via a marriage and censuses :-\
Gadget
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It might well be Malta:
http://maltaramc.com/regmltgar/royalart.html
Gadget
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There are probably several ways to narrow down Ruth's birthplace.
1) Census records might list a country.
2) birthplaces of younger siblings might pin-point father's regiment which could lead to finding where he was stationed in 1818.
I found information on a family I was tracing (children born Malta, father in R.A.) on this website but can't see any Lovatts mentioned-
http://website.lineone.net/~aldosliema/britisharmy1.htm
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Ruth Lovatt is possibly Ruth Lovett who married John Merelies at St Mary Magdalene, Woolwich in 1837.
This couple are recorded at Woolwich Barracks in 1841 as Ruth and John Merrilees. John is a gunner, born in Scotland. Ruth's birthplace appears to shown as 'E' in the final column. Possibly this is actually 'F' for 'Foreign Parts'
Census ref: HO107/ Piece: 493/ Book: 8/ Folio: 17/ Page: 6.
John and Ruth Merrylees baptised a son named John at St Mary Magdalen in 1841, and a daughter named Catherine Louisa in 1856.
I can't see them in 1851 or 1861, there is a possible death of Ruth in Greenwich district in 1862 - and I really must go out now :) .
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Samuel Lovatt, Ruth's father, served in the 7th Battalion (1811-1843). His service record suggests that he served 'at home'. No other info in the record that I can see on a quick inspection.
Just a thought - could it be a mistranscription of Cambrai - From Wiki:
Cambrai was the Duke of Wellington's headquarters, for the British Army of Occupation, from 1815 to 1818.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambrai
Another reference to Cambria here:
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/Details?uri=C12326025
Gadget
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How do we order military births if we are overseas? Is there a special form on the internet. I order 1837+ English/Welsh birth and marriage certificates on the Internet but there seems to be no indication as how to order overseas military ones.
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Don't know if this helps at all, may just be a coincidence but 26 July 1873 John Merrylees, full age, widower, blacksmith, son of John Merrylees, blacksmith married Louisa Lewis, full age, widow, daughter of Samuel Lovett, baker, at Plumstead, witnesses were Robert John Anderson and Jane Anderson.
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Don't know if this helps at all, may just be a coincidence but 26 July 1873 John Merrylees, full age, widower, blacksmith, son of John Merrylees, blacksmith married Louisa Lewis, full age, widow, daughter of Samuel Lovett, baker, at Plumstead, witnesses were Robert John Anderson and Jane Anderson.
Yes - I've been looking at that on the online tree and trying to link them to the 1871 census. The tree has Ruth as dying in Greenwich in 1872 82
A bit more digging needed :-\
Added - the army record has Samuel as a Baker when he joined.
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The tree has daughters Sarah and Mary Jane born Ireland 1851 and 1853 and son Samuel b. Montreal, Quebec in 1846, so maybe no other census for her but the 1841 :-\
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How do we order military births if we are overseas? Is there a special form on the internet. I order 1837+ English/Welsh birth and marriage certificates on the Internet but there seems to be no indication as how to order overseas military ones.
You'll find details of how to order various types of cert here:
http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/most_customers_want_to_know.asp#FamilyHistory
Scroll down a good way!
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wonder if this is a brother?
Name:LOVATT, Samuel
Regiment:Royal Artillery
Place :Sheffield
Country:England
Year:1823
Volume :RA17
Page:106
Record source:GRO Regimental Birth Indices (1761 to 1924)
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Lots of info on that tree*, including all Ruth's sibs!
Ruth's DofB given as 6th February 1818
(The Lov*tts are in Newcastle in 1841)
*most of it seems to be substantiated
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John Merrylees is a widower in 1871, living in Plumstead, Kent, born Eddington*, Pencaitland
With him is son Samuel, aged 25 born in Montreal and daughter Mary aged 19 born in Athlone
RG10/Piece: 788/ Folio: 80/; Page: 44
*I think this should be Haddington. familysearch lists Chelsea Pensioner records for John Merrylees born in Haddingtonshire in 1816.
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The only Ruth Merrylees death is Oct q, 1862, Greenwich so I think the tree might have been 20 years out on this one. (2nd Nov 1882 on tree)
(My 2/£ key is sticking so please bear with me!)
Still doesn't get us nearer to Cambria though, apart from my Reply #9. It could be that cristiane knows all this - it might be her tree :-\
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Ruth has multiple references of her birth on the Military births Overseas indexes.
I don't understand "multiple references", but the Military births Overseas index should show where she was born. Wales would not be overseas. As 'gortonboy' suggests more details would help.
Stan
Regimental Birth Indexes – may show several index references for the same person
http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/most_customers_want_to_know.asp#FamilyHistory
As Gadget says Cambrai does look probable.
Stan
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I think Gadget is probably on the money with Cambrai - there are nine people in the 1851 census giving Cambray , France as their birthplace.
The Merrylees family are perhaps in Ireland in 1851, and I believe that some 1861 census records for Woolwich are missing.
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I think Gadget is probably on the money with Cambrai - there are nine people in the 1851 census giving Cambray , France as their birthplace.
And seven of them in 1818 :) one, a soldiers wife, is in the Royal Artillery Barracks, Woolwich.
Stan
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Hello all,
Ruth Lovatt (as Lovett on marriage to John Merrelies/Merrylees), military births all come under 'overseas indexes', these are the only ones that I know of that have actual birth certificates pre 1837.
Her father was Samuel Lovatt and his army papers state he was ''at home'' with his time in the army. All to be found on Ancestry and some on Find My Past.
He was in the 2nd and then the 7th Battalion RA, died in Woolwich, have marriage record to wife and certificates of her siblings births.
The Merrylees family were in Ireland in 1851 but no records available, church burnt down a long time ago which held all local records including the censuses.
Ruth did die in 1862.
I have yet to add my family tree to rootschat or any other sites myself.
After Ruth's death, her hubby John married her sister Louisa, all details have in my records as I do on Ruth and John's children. My link is with Catherine Louisa who came to Queensland, Australia and married John James Truscott. Catherine is my great grandmother.
John Merrylees was born in Pencaitland, Haddingshire, Scotland.
Have a relative descended via sister Louisa who has added family on the Ancestry site and another site am unable to access myself, his details came from me.
I will look into the name as Cambrai to find more on it's history.
thanking you all for your input, hope who-ever is trying to access military BDM's will get there, they can also check via ancestry/find my past as these indexes are listed there.
from Cristiane.
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Forgot to mention that 2 areas of the Woolwich Kent censuses have been missing for over 100 years, so if anyone else had families there will not find them, unless a miracle happens.
from cristiane.
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To all,
Mistake on Sam Lovatt's death place, should read Staffordshire where he lived. Death details previously mentioned belonged to another army man, his in-law.
from cristiane.
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Forgot to mention that 2 areas of the Woolwich Kent censuses have been missing for over 100 years, so if anyone else had families there will not find them, unless a miracle happens.
from cristiane.
The 1861 Census, RG9/407 Woolwich Arsenal. Cambray/Cambrai was the headquarters of the English Army in 1818.
Stan
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If you go into the Google site and type in ''Cambria" you will find out just where in the region of Wales it was.
Very interesting this site was and very informative.
Also states that it is an 'old' name for Wales.
Have fun searching Google.
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:)
I was born and brought up in Wales.
A British birth/baptism record is unlikely to have Cambria entered rather than Wales. Given the Army background, the most likely explanation is that given a few months ago
Samuel Lovatt, Ruth's father, served in the 7th Battalion (1811-1843). His service record suggests that he served 'at home'. No other info in the record that I can see on a quick inspection.
Just a thought - could it be a mistranscription of Cambrai - From Wiki:
Cambrai was the Duke of Wellington's headquarters, for the British Army of Occupation, from 1815 to 1818.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambrai
Another reference to Cambria here:
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/Details?uri=C12326025
Gadget
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To all,
Mistake on Sam Lovatt's death place, should read Staffordshire where he lived. Death details previously mentioned belonged to another army man, his in-law.
from cristiane.
Just to hand re Samuel Lovatt, senior. Thanks to "Find My Past" for adding more census records etc. I was never able to find the rest of the family past the 1841 census in Staffordshire (other than the 2 sisters of whom the eldest was my direct ancestor).
Finally found them in Banwell, Somerset, Samuel's wife Mary (nee Gurkin) died there and he remarried again some years before his death.
My dau-in-law and I have come to the conclusion that the Staffordshire reference death may be his son Sam who I have been unable to trace.
I just need to be a bit richer to contact the Royal Artillery Association (Firepower) re the whereabouts of their regiments pre 1851. I have copies from after 1856, just takes some reading to understand the pages.
cristiane.