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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Surrey => England => Surrey Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Lostris on Friday 24 May 13 14:20 BST (UK)
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but we are struggling to find his origins ....
where would one search online for a Baptism record? - Familysearch doesnt seem to have him.
[His name was spelled as 2 words in 1792, but his son also Fitzherbert (1798) and other later descendants spell it conventionally...]
Any help appreciated!
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Not sure if you have this.
St Saviour, Denmark Park burials
1801 Jul 1, Susannah, wife of Fitzherbert Alford, Woolendraper, age 30
Although I see his occupation is on baptism of son Fitzherbert in 1798.
His marriage allegation gives his age of 21 years and upwards. so birth of 1770, and he was of the Southwark St Saviour parish, but does not mean he was born there. Susannah was of the same parish.
Fitz Herbert Alford and Susannah Whitelamb were both witnesses at the marriage of John Grant and Mary Whitelamb on 31 Dec 1791 at St George the Martyr. Mary and Susannah sisters??
Ian C
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yes, many thanks - have plumbed the current online info I have access to - hoping that there are earlier records of a baptism ....
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Sorry not found it,but have you seen his burial on Familysearch -18.4.1822 Walworth Non-Conformist.If you track down the original it might have an age.
Ciderdrinker
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Many thanks for highlighting that entry.
What records do you have access to?
I wasn't sure if that was Fitzherbert snr (married 1792), or the first of a trio of infant deaths of Fitzherberts (3rd gen) born to Fitzherbert jnr (c1798) and Amelia Caroline ...
Hopefully someone here may have a sub to the Genealogist site who are mooted to host the original RG4_4514 publication - but I'm not hopeful, as typically age etc info would have been indexed/transcribed along with the basic facts ?
Also surprised its a Non-Conformist Church - given where he married and where kids baptised ?
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Can anyone with experience of these NC records advise if info like age-at-death is typically in the original record - ie is there more content than transcribed at FamilySearch ?
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I think I can help. I'm a bit rushed at the moment, but I've been researching the Alfords for some time. I am almost certain that this Fitzherbert (whose age at death was recorded in 1822 when aged 69) was baptised in Beckington in Somerset (near the Wiltshire border) on 8 December 1752. It took me some time to find this a few years ago, because the name in the registers is not written 'Fitzherbert' but something like 'Phitzhurburt'. His parents were John and Elizabeth Alford, and I am descended from another son of theirs (Samuel). Let me know how much you'd like to get from me. I have quite a lot of Alford material, and information on about 4 generations of linkages between the names Alford and Fitzherbert, which go back to the early 18th century. And I'd love to know what your angle is......
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Pleased to meet you Sir!
I was researching for a close friend who is an Alford - direct descendant of said Fitzherbert .... we were frustrated by lack of Birth/Baptism info in the London area, and were in fact planning a research trip to that area to try & eyeball the Registers more closely ....
It doesnt surprise me that Fitzherbert was not London born, altho Somerset is futher afield than I'd thought!
You need at least 2 more posts on the open Fora before we can exchange info on the more private
Personal message system. I will put you in touch directly then.....
Your info much appreciated !
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OK - well here's the first of two posts; this one mostly goes forward in time from the Fitzherbert we're focusing on.
As I said, his father was a John Alford, who lived in Beckington and was my 5 x great grandfather. He and his wife Elizabeth had 8 children, including Fitzherbert (Phitzhurburt) and Samuel, the youngest. I am descended from Samuel (b. 1763), through his son William who moved to London in the 1820s and set up a successful tailoring business in Deptford (SE London). I first got interested in the connection between the names Alford and Fitzherbert because William had a half-brother of that name and also a son (b. circa 1847 and died, a bachelor, in 1870).
As a side exercise from following my line of Alfords, I also did some work on tracing the 1752 Fitzherbert forwards. You and your friend may well know much of this already, but the name persisted through the generations. The 1752 Fitzherbert had a son Fitzherbert (b 1797) who in turn had 3 sons of that name (an earlier post mentions this). I think the survivor married an Elizabeth Beresford and died in 1901, The grandson of one of his brothers (Henry) was called Fitzherbert Fraser Alford; he was baptised in 1899.
The 1797 Fitzherbert probably had a brother Josiah who had a grandson (Thomas Josiah Fitzherbert Alford) born in 1852. The 1797 Fitzherbert also had a sister Susanna (like her mother) who married a William Bugby. They had a son Fitzherbert Bugby (b. 1823) who became a prominent Baptist minister, and another son, John who in turn had grandchildren called Fitzherbert.
I could go on, but won't at this stage. But it's remarkable how the name became a tradition. I don't know how it started, but the next post will contain a theory.
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And here's the second post, this time going backwards.
The father of John Alford (the father of the 1752 Fitzherbert) was probably Samuel Alford. His wife was Hannah and John was baptised in Frome (near Beckington) in 1718. I think this Samuel Alford died in 1762, which would account for John's youngest son being called Samuel in 1763.
The Frome records show the burial of a 'Fitsharbut' Alford, son of Samuel, in 1713. To my mind, this is clearly Fitzherbert spoken (and copied down) with a strong West Country accent and means he was John's brother who died young (or possibly half brother, since no mother is mentioned).
That's as far back as I can definitely go. At the latest, Samuel would have been born in the 1690s. But here's an interesting thing. In September 1700 a Mary Alford married a William Fitzherbert in Chideock, in Dorset. Is this how the name got into the Alfords? But so far I have not been able to link Mary with Samuel.
Hope this is some help. Whenever you want I can put together a package for you that enlarges on this stuff and contains more circumstantial information.
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This is very much appreciated!
I am sending you a private message (access via your Profile page) to put you in touch with the Mr Alford I have been helping.
Kindest regards, L
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Hi DOMJ49,
May I ask what sources you used to determine the ancestors of the 1752 Fitzherbert? I'm researching the same line.
I've tried all the name variants you suggest (plus more!), but I am struggling to find any record of him. I've also tried searching by the parents names and his birth year, but still no results. Admittedly I am only using FamilySearch.org. Perhaps this site has limitations compared to a paid site?
Any help appreciated.
Many thanks,
Gary
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I have since located the baptism record in question. On Ancestry.com the name is transcribed as “Phikurbith Alford”. The record is dated 8th Dec 1752 in Beckington, Somerset.
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I examined the original record under magnification a few years ago, and with the benefit of knowing the answer I can persuade myself that the transcription is wrong (not surprising) and that the original entry reads 'Phitzurburt'. I'm not sure how to insert an image on this system (I don't use it very much) but if you email me at domj49'at'yahoo.co.uk I will send you an image of this (if you're interested)
David