RootsChat.Com

England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Hertfordshire => England => Hertfordshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: MysticBreeze on Wednesday 22 May 13 05:14 BST (UK)

Title: Birth/Baptism lookup for Tring please 1821
Post by: MysticBreeze on Wednesday 22 May 13 05:14 BST (UK)
I have been trying to find the birth or baptism for Thomas ALLEN whose birth was circa 1821/1822 in Tring, Hertfordshire.  I cannot find it.

I've today received his death certificate which state his parents names as being James and Elizabeth Allen.  James was a dealer (or baker but I think it reads Dealer).  No surname for Elizabeth. 

Any help greatly appreciated.  Thank you
Title: Re: Birth/Baptism lookup for Tring please 1821
Post by: [Ray] on Wednesday 22 May 13 06:43 BST (UK)
Hi

My closest found marriage [ HALS Names Online ]

James Allen / Elizabeth Capps - Barnet East 12 Feb 1805

Not likely.


Ray
Title: Re: Birth/Baptism lookup for Tring please 1821
Post by: MysticBreeze on Wednesday 22 May 13 07:39 BST (UK)
Hi Ray, no I don't think that's him.  Tring comes from the 1851 census and also from his death certificate that his son gave details for in New Zealand in 1877. 
Title: Re: Birth/Baptism lookup for Tring please 1821
Post by: trish1120 on Wednesday 22 May 13 08:40 BST (UK)
Death Certs are not necessarily reliable unfortunately.

Do you have Thomas's Marriage Cert to Elizabeth Hall in 1849?
Looked on Anc London Marriages but cant find it.

Trish :)

I did notice on the 1851 Census a lot of the Allens living in Tring were born Buckinghamshire.
Title: Re: Birth/Baptism lookup for Tring please 1821
Post by: smudwhisk on Wednesday 22 May 13 08:47 BST (UK)
With Tring being on the boarder with Buckinghamshire, the parent's marriage and Thomas' baptism could be over the boarder and the family moved into Tring after that date.  No sign of a James and Elizabeth Allen in Tring.
Title: Re: Birth/Baptism lookup for Tring please 1821
Post by: [Ray] on Wednesday 22 May 13 08:49 BST (UK)
Hi

Just removing a ridiculous posting . . . . .  ;D

Ray
Title: Re: Birth/Baptism lookup for Tring please 1821
Post by: smudwhisk on Wednesday 22 May 13 08:55 BST (UK)
If you don't already have a copy, Thomas' marriage certificate to Elizabeth Hall would confirm his father's name and occupation and would probably be more reliable than a death certificate where the information would be from a third party, even if that was a child.  As Lizzie has said, they're not always accurate.
Title: Re: Birth/Baptism lookup for Tring please 1821
Post by: trish1120 on Wednesday 22 May 13 08:57 BST (UK)
Do I have a new name ;D
Title: Re: Birth/Baptism lookup for Tring please 1821
Post by: smudwhisk on Wednesday 22 May 13 09:01 BST (UK)
Do I have a new name ;D

Oops, sorry Trish, bit too early for me. ;D
Title: Re: Birth/Baptism lookup for Tring please 1821
Post by: smudwhisk on Wednesday 22 May 13 09:15 BST (UK)
Additional thread re marriage - http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,647811.msg4944103.html#msg4944103 (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,647811.msg4944103.html#msg4944103)
Title: Re: Birth/Baptism lookup for Tring please 1821
Post by: trish1120 on Wednesday 22 May 13 09:22 BST (UK)
No worries :)


Elizabeth HALL Christened 16 Nov 1826, Burslem, Staffordshire
Parents JOSEPH/ANN
(Source Familysearch.Org)
Siblings;
ELIZA, 05 Aug 1822, Died 02 Nov 1823
JOHN, 26 Aug 1823
CAROLINE, 09 Nov 1826

Possible Marriage;
04 September 1820, St John the Baptist, Burslem, Staffordshire
Joseph HALL, Bachelor, Labourer
Ann COLLIER, Widow
Both of Burslem Parish at time of Marriage
Witnesses, William Bourne/Mary Bowen

There is another possible to Ann PRITCHETT, 29 Oct 1821, Norton in the Moors.

Both on FreeREG

Trish :)
Title: Re: Birth/Baptism lookup for Tring please 1821
Post by: MysticBreeze on Wednesday 22 May 13 09:45 BST (UK)
If you don't already have a copy, Thomas' marriage certificate to Elizabeth Hall would confirm his father's name and occupation and would probably be more reliable than a death certificate where the information would be from a third party, even if that was a child.  As Lizzie has said, they're not always accurate.

Yes I know Death Certs aren't always accurate, but sometimes they are!  And all information stated is correct.  Tring comes not only from the Death Cert its stated on the 1851 census also. 
Title: Re: Birth/Baptism lookup for Tring please 1821
Post by: MysticBreeze on Wednesday 22 May 13 09:46 BST (UK)
No worries :)


Elizabeth HALL Christened 16 Nov 1826, Burslem, Staffordshire
Parents JOSEPH/ANN
(Source Familysearch.Org)
Siblings;
ELIZA, 05 Aug 1822, Died 02 Nov 1823
JOHN, 26 Aug 1823
CAROLINE, 09 Nov 1826

Possible Marriage;
04 September 1820, St John the Baptist, Burslem, Staffordshire
Joseph HALL, Bachelor, Labourer
Ann COLLIER, Widow
Both of Burslem Parish at time of Marriage
Witnesses, William Bourne/Mary Bowen

There is another possible to Ann PRITCHETT, 29 Oct 1821, Norton in the Moors.

Both on FreeREG

Trish :)

Thank you Trish, I already have Elizabeth's information on her siblings.  Also her mother's maiden name was Buckley  :)
Title: Re: Birth/Baptism lookup for Tring please 1821
Post by: smudwhisk on Wednesday 22 May 13 09:51 BST (UK)
If you don't already have a copy, Thomas' marriage certificate to Elizabeth Hall would confirm his father's name and occupation and would probably be more reliable than a death certificate where the information would be from a third party, even if that was a child.  As Lizzie has said, they're not always accurate.

Yes I know Death Certs aren't always accurate, but sometimes they are!  And all information stated is correct.  Tring comes not only from the Death Cert its stated on the 1851 census also.

That's as maybe, but his baptism does NOT appear in the Tring PRs so it is quite possible that the family moved into Tring at some point before migrating into London.  There are Allens in there, but not a Thomas at the right time nor parents James and Elizabeth baptising children.  There are other James Allen marriages but not to an Elizabeth.  Just because Thomas listed Tring on the 1851 Census, doesn't mean he was born/baptised there just that's the place he believed he was born.  The younger brother of one of my ancestors, both born in Ivinghoe, lists his birthplace on several census as Berkhamstead. ::)

FindMyPast don't have all the parish registers for Hertfordshire online at the moment so they could have been in a surrounding parish but they could also have quite easily have been over the border in Buckinghamshire.  It might be worth you getting a search done from Bucks FHS to eliminate that option if you are certain that you have the correct parents - http://www.bucksfhs.org.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=17&Itemid=199.

You say all the information is correct on the death certificate, do you have Thomas on the 1841 Census with his parents and/or his marriage certificate to confirm father's name and occupation?
Title: Re: Birth/Baptism lookup for Tring please 1821
Post by: MysticBreeze on Tuesday 18 June 13 02:03 BST (UK)
I now have Thomas Allen and Elizabeth Hall's marriage cert.  It states his father was James Allen.  They married in Craven? Chapel, St James, Middlesex.
Title: Re: Birth/Baptism lookup for Tring please 1821
Post by: globetrotter66 on Tuesday 20 August 13 16:03 BST (UK)
I'm tracing Thomas Allen and Elizabeth Hall from the Hall side, and would be interested in learning more about what you learned from the marriage certificate.  Elizabeth Hall was (I'm fairly certain) one of three children (including John Hall and Marianne Hall) of Joseph Hall of Burslem and Anne Buckley of Hanley.  Marianne was in London for the 1851 census (she is the visiting sister).  Will be happy to share info.