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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: CarolRR on Saturday 18 May 13 14:39 BST (UK)
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To continue from the previous thread ... I am attempting to find and confirm the family of my maternal grandmother, Mary Ann Fisher.
I have decided that in order to discover her true identity, I need to reach out to the Hall relatives that are showing in my DNA matches, which I have now done. God help me.
See previous topic-
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,646926
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Bless you Carol.
May be of some interest as you have decided to widen your search:
28th June 1892 - James Hall - imprisoned for 3 callendar months for being: "An incorrigible rogue"
(Lincoln)
x
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In addition, I have a couple of "Potter's" (they share the same DNA maternal haplogroup as me) that are listed as '3rd cousins' on the DNA website, so I have written to them as well, seeking clarification. Hopefully something will come of this.
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It's amazing what comes to you while mulling things over in a steamy hot shower ... I came rushing back here as I realize that factoring in the DNA test results, Harriet Fisher's mother must have been a Potter - Harriet Potter(?), married to George Fisher - although I'm not sure that these current DNA matches would be '3rd cousins'. I got thrown off with James Hall's sister marrying a Potter. This is taking me a generation further back then I want to go right now, but it would explain the match to the Potter's, which I can put aside for now. I will run this past my Fisher match, who is happy to help sort through our connection.
As per the rap sheet of James Hall, 'rogue' is putting it lightly.
p.s. Thank you Susan!
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Just keep in mind 'we are not our ancestors' good or bad ::) You may find they will be as horried as you with what you have found
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iluleah, I have come to terms with that, which is what has allowed me to go beyond where I had originally intended - it's about 'acceptance', which is where I am, after having a few days to digest all of this. The purpose of this whole exercise has been an attempt at discovering a lost identity and finding lost relatives, and roots - not about blaming those living for the mistakes of their forefathers. It just means you have to stop every once in a while, take some deep breaths, regroup, and continue on, as my grandmother did before me.
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Oh I understand I have followed your thread and our ancestry is very personal to us.
I found myself 'liking' an ancestor of mine then as I found more I made a judgement and decided, they were not such a nice person ater all, 'your' ancestor is of the extreme kind, but without him you or your Grandmother would not have been here......... for me her story shows what a wonderfully strong person she was.
Best wishes in your quest to find the truth
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From the familysearch website:
Marriage at Ilkeston 18 October 1859
George Fisher bachelor age 22 s/o Thomas Fisher
Harriet Orme spinster age 27 d/o John Orme
The ages tally with George and Harriet's ages on censuses.
Baptism at Ilkeston 22 April 1832
Harriet d/o John Orme and Sarah
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Hi
Taken from the linked thread, gpixie post 136 Page 14
"Interestingly it says Mary J married two brothers; Samual Hall 1858 to 1891 and Arthur Hall born 1869 Riddings, Derbyshire. Samual and Arthur's father is listed as William and mother is Ann Froggatt."
If you look at the original 1901 census there is a Mary Ann Froggatt aged 41 b Shipley Derby, below Harriet Fisher
There are also 2 boys above Harriet, Joseph Froggatt aged 12 and John Froggatt aged 15 both born Shipley Derby
I am not sure if this relevant or just coincidental
Margp
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Hi All - I have been following this thread with great interest. Now we are on a new thread I thought it might be useful to bring Ruskie's timeline along too.
Milly
It has been suggested that I repost the timeline for anyone who would like to catch up. This is the information that rootschatters have gathered so far - and relationships are unproven. Carol is awaiting certificates and information from Nottinghamshire Archives regarding Workhouse records.
The transcription of the newspaper article which gives a good outline of the case is on page 9/10.
c 1874 - Harriett Fisher born Ilkeston Derbyshire, father George
c 1876 - James Hall born
1881 census - 3325/100/3 Harriet born abt 1874 - parents George and Harriet
1891 census - 2665/ 25/ 43 George and daughter Harriet (surname transcribed as) Fislin 17 yrs (b abt 1874)
1895 - Oct-Dec Mary Ann Fisher birth Basford
1896 - 29th January - Mary Ann Fisher baptised Ilkeston. Mother is Harriet Fisher
1896 - 7th March - Marriage in Ilkeston of James Hall (age 20 years, father William) married Harriet Fisher (age 22 yrs, father George) [GRO ref Basford 7b 205 Mar.Qtr 1896]
1897 - 13/14 November Loughborough Fair - James Hall committed cruelty to child.
Hall says he was with his wife from his marriage until the fair.
She went off with another man at the fair.
She and another youngster went away.
1897 - About December - Hall's wife was looking for him and said they had purchased the child at Derby. It did not belong to him. Hall disputed this. Hall said child was 2 years old October last. He said he married the mother at Ilkeston Old Church when the child was a few months old. He was
then working at Stanton Ironworks Company
1898 - 12th January - the case against James Hall was heard at Loughboro' Petty Sessions and he was sentenced to ten week's hard labour. Custody of Mary Ann given to NSPCC.
1898 - Saturday January 15th - Newspaper article of trial published in Leicester Chronicle and the Leicestershire Mercury (Leicester, England), Saturday, January 15, 1898;
pg. 2; Issue 4536. Also a smaller article published in the Nottinghamshire Guardian on same date
1898 - 1st March - Mary Ann entered Barnardos in Stepney Causeway - Age 2 1/2 years)
1901 census - Harriet Fisher, single born abt 1873 living in Nottingham with daughter Alice 2 yrs. She is in the Basford workhouse.3191 /118 /6 (mistranscribed as Harritt Fisher)
1901 census - Mary Ann (with new surname Williams), a 5 year old nurse child, Dr Barnardos Home, is with the Owen family - 759/ 96/23 living in Kent
1904 - December - Mary Ann returned to Barnados because Mrs Owens was too ill to care for her.She had been fostered by the Owens family for 6 years.
1905 - 25th May - Mary Ann sailed to Canada
1909 - Jan 14 - Mary Ann receives a letter from Norman Williams, who believes he could be her brother and asking her to write fully all she remembers of her relatives.
Jan 22: Mary Ann said she remembers nothing of any relatives and was placed in home when very young.
1911 census - Harriett Fisher is an inmate in Bagthorpe Workhouse, with 13 year old Alice Fisher and 6 year old John Fisher. Harriet is a charwoman b Ilkeston.
1919 - Deaths Mar quarter
Fisher Harriett age 45 Nottingham vol 7b page 444
(not confirmed)
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Tis a fascinating and harrowing story but it is a testament to the strength of the human spirit. I wish you success in your search Carol. Thank you to all those generous Rootschatters!
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I am intrigued by the note on the timeline which I've copied below-
1909 - Jan 14 - Mary Ann receives a letter from Norman Williams, who believes he could be her brother and asking her to write fully all she remembers of her relatives.
Jan 22: Mary Ann said she remembers nothing of any relatives and was placed in home when very young.
How did Norman Williams know of Mary Ann more than 10 years after the event and how was he able to contact her in Canada (I'm assuming he is in England ??? )?
Would Barnardo's have given him her Canadian address so he could write to her - and why would they do that if they knew Williams to be a name they had given her?
Sorry to pose a possibly irrelevant question - but it's puzzling me :)
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Not sure if this will help any
Claimed by Descendants
WILLIAMS Mary Ann birth 18/09/1895 Eng ship Dominion 1905 aged 9
Unclaimed by Descendants
WILLIAMS Norman A birth 1898 Eng ship Kensington 1905 age 7
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~britishhomechildren/
This is the only birth i can find that fits for Norman
Births Dec 1898 (>99%)
Williams Norman Alfred Brentford 3a 97
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loobylooayr - Barnardo's were sending shiploads of children across the Atlantic and if they were in Barnardo's care, it wasn't uncommon for them to get separated as they seemed to send groups, by gender. My grandmother left England with something like 144 other Barnardo's girls. The information that I provided regarding Norman Williams was a journal entry in the Barnardo's file. It appears as though Norman contacted Barnardo's who then forwarded the letter to my grandmother's 'placement' home, and my grandmother must have replied back through Barnardo's for them to be aware of the content of the letters. I don't find it strange, as by then, many years had passed since my grandmother had entered Barnardo's and it's unlikely that an administrative person sorting these communications would look back into the files to see where her surname came from. As I flip through the records in front of me, nowhere does it indicate who or why "Williams" was chosen as her surname.
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Sorry , I must have missed something earilier. :-[
Whilst I'm aware that lots of children were shipped to Canada and Australia at that time, I did not realise Norman Williams was also a Barnardo's boy in Canada. I thought he was someone in England trying to find a missing sister from his family. I was just puzzled how a boy in England found out about your grandma in Canada.
And I should have realised that perhaps paperwork back then would not be as thorough as today.
Too late at night for me I think.
Apologies once again,
And good luck with your research,
Looby
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HI Giblet, I don't ever recall seeing the date of 18/09/1895 as my grandmother's birthdate - that must be a typing error. Barnardo's chose 1/8/1895 as her birthdate - it doesn't really matter but I don't think that it should be part of the record. Also, I don't think that the Norman Williams issue is really worth spending time on - I honestly don't see any connection to him whatsoever. Barnardo's refer to my grandmother as Mary A. Williams in all of their reports and correspondence and this boy had a sister named Mary Williams who he was looking for. Just a coincidence ... I'm sure of it.
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Looby, no need to apologize. Thank you for being concerned enough to ask about it.
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Thanks Carol :)
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HI Giblet, I don't ever recall seeing the date of 18/09/1895 as my grandmother's birthdate - that must be a typing error. Barnardo's chose 1/8/1895 as her birthdate - it doesn't really matter but I don't think that it should be part of the record. Also, I don't think that the Norman Williams issue is really worth spending time on - I honestly don't see any connection to him whatsoever. Barnardo's refer to my grandmother as Mary A. Williams in all of their reports and correspondence and this boy had a sister named Mary Williams who he was looking for. Just a coincidence ... I'm sure of it.
No problem about the Norman William's Carol. If anything it just eliminated him.
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No worries Looby ;)
Giblet - thanks, although I hope that someone has since claimed that Norman Williams as family - poor kid.
I'm still really stumped by where "Potter" comes into this. One of my Aussie DNA matches shows both "Hall" and "Potter" in her list of paternal family names. She also indicates that her English ancestors are from Suffolk and Norfolk. This "Potter" connection is driving me batty and a google search produces tons of Harry Potter information, which doesn't help much, although I could use his wizardly help with this! ;) One of my other matches (in the US) has "Fisher" on her paternal side and "Potter" and "Hall" on her maternal side.
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Milly, thank you for copying the timeline onto this thread. Carol, let me know if you would like me to begin a new timeline and/or summary for this new thread. I am happy to do it if you wish. :)
I may be completely wrong here (and I'm the first to admit that I know very little about the subject) but it seems that you are driving yourself 'potty' ( ;)) trying to fit your DNA matched surnames into your tree. Is it possible that the Potter connection came through a different branch of the family or from an earlier generation. :-\
Just as an aside I thought you might find this useful:
http://gbnames.publicprofiler.org/Surnames.aspx
(It is only a rough guide but quite interesting nonetheless)
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I may be completely wrong here (and I'm the first to admit that I know very little about the subject) but it seems that you are driving yourself 'potty' ( ;)) trying to fit your DNA matched surnames into your tree. Is it possible that the Potter connection came through a different branch of the family or from an earlier generation. :-\
Carol, I've also been quietly following your search for your grandmother's family, well done everybody! Such a sad tale.
I have to agree with Ruskie that you may be trying too hard to tie in the Dna results to your search. My feelings are that most people who try that route are ones who are truly stuck and do not know where their ancestors came from, hence far more people outside of the Uk have done dna testing than those here. Please take on board that very very few people living in the Uk with English heritage have done tests, not only that, they must have participated in the same testing group to be able to compare and analysis the results. What you are trying to do is fit in with someone else's results and they don't even know where their family came from prior to emigrating.
Most of us born in England are lucky enough to follow through records to prove our heritage until we either hit a brickwall or run out of records. Please wait for the birth cert to arrive, it might not even have a fathers name on it. A father has to be present when registering a birth to an unmarried mother and given Hall's background I doubt if he would have been present.
That aside, given the social standing of Hall and Harriet Fisher, I have been wondering if either had been trying to claim poor relief for themselves and Mary Ann? Maybe something to consider once the certs arrive. The only problem is where they tried claiming it though!
Good luck with the continued search
Jenny
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Carol, I've also been quietly following your search for your grandmother's family, well done everybody! Such a sad tale.
Please wait for the birth cert to arrive, it might not even have a fathers name on it. A father has to be present when registering a birth to an unmarried mother and given Hall's background I doubt if he would have been present.
That aside, given the social standing of Hall and Harriet Fisher, I have been wondering if either had been trying to claim poor relief for themselves and Mary Ann? Maybe something to consider once the certs arrive. The only problem is where they tried claiming it though!
Good luck with the continued search
Jenny
May I just point out that at the moment, other than this dreadful act, we know nothing of Hall's background. He was supposedly working at the time of his marriage to Harriet and his father's name was William. Hopefully when the Certs arrive, we will find that we have the right Mary Ann and her mother.
I am also hoping that there are some workhouse records.
Poor relief records could be an avenue to follow, Jenny, you're right.
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To overcome the Harry Potter problem you could try using www.mocavo.com a genealogical search engine
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In addition to Workhouse and Poor relief, depending on what the certificates reveal, may I also suggest Police Records if they exist? "California Dreamin" suggested this on the previous post and it may will be worthwhile.
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Interestingly on 1905 list of Home Children to Canada (on Canada NA site) there is also an "I" Williams - Female, aged 9. Maybe this was who Norman was trying to contact.
Just a thought.
Edited: From Ruslie's excellent link it looks like this shouls be an Isaac (male). Shame there are no forenames only initials.
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Good morning to all - thanks for your comments. I have not heard the expression 'driving me potty' before, ;) is that British or Aussie?
I was raised in an Air Force household, moving every 3 years or so, and have no sense of being rooted anywhere - that has likely added another dimension to my eagerness to find my grandmother's identity, as it also provides me with my own roots. I have always felt that in order to move ahead in life, you need to know where you've been. As well, my paternal grandmother's ancestry is a bit of a mystery. These are the reasons why I did the DNA testing. I find it bothersome that "Potter" is at the top of my relative list and I don't have a clue where they fit in - but those of you who suggested that it's impossible to fit this together are right - I just kept hoping that it was a small puzzle, with large pieces. Obviously, that's not the case. Thanks to those of you for your comments and opinions.
Bearcat - thanks for the link!
Ruskie - thank you for offering to update the Timeline - you are so kind. What if we wait and update it once the information from the certificates is known? That way, you're not spending alot of your time on this. Speaking of certificates, are they sent out via snail mail, or email? It is indicated on my receipt that they are due to be sent out on the 23rd.
Police Records could be interesting, although I'm not sure how helpful that information would be - then again, you amazing researchers know more than I do about such things.
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Carol,
Each certificates you have ordered will be sent seperately via snail mail .
Yes, I think waiting for the certificates before updating the timeline is a good idea.
I have no knowledge of how to research police records but I hope someone will be able to offer some suggestions as to how go about doing so. :)
[http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/potty :)]
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calendars of prisoners, which are the arrest, trail, conviction court records etc
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/looking-for-person/criminal-trial-or-conviction.htm
The only police 'records' I have are from a police note book which was in the personal possessions of a policeman and the family gave it to the local FH society as his beat was in the village and it meantioned many names and interviews he took about the people he arrested and were later convicted.
Not sure about the actual police record I would assume they would be archived ( with the police or the records office)
Maybe it is worth asking the derbyshire force directly...especially if you give tham the timeline of the story so far http://www.derbyshire.police.uk/My-Local-Police/DDivision/IlkestonSection/IlkestonSection.aspx
.........and another thought would be have you contacted the Ikeston Advertiser? Ilkeston is a small town and you may get some real interest from other sources if they run a story and they are highly likely to especially if you can get an investigative journalist interested http://www.ilkestonadvertiser.co.uk/
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http://www.ilkestonhistory.org.uk/history/familyhistory/fhintroduction.htm
Another avenue to look into if you haven't already :o check out 'PROJECTS' certainly your story would be of great interest
....and for Basford http://www.nottshistory.org.uk/articles/mellorsarticles/basford1.htm
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Hi Carol,
In my experience the certificates will be sent out the 23rd and you should have them within 5 days from UK. Its quicker to get a letter from England to Ontario than sending one from ON to BC lol.
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calendars of prisoners, which are the arrest, trail, conviction court records etc
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/looking-for-person/criminal-trial-or-conviction.htm
The only police 'records' I have are from a police note book which was in the personal possessions of a policeman and the family gave it to the local FH society as his beat was in the village and it meantioned many names and interviews he took about the people he arrested and were later convicted.
Not sure about the actual police record I would assume they would be archived ( with the police or the records office)
Maybe it is worth asking the derbyshire force directly...especially if you give tham the timeline of the story so far http://www.derbyshire.police.uk/My-Local-Police/DDivision/IlkestonSection/IlkestonSection.aspx
.........and another thought would be have you contacted the Ikeston Advertiser? Ilkeston is a small town and you may get some real interest from other sources if they run a story and they are highly likely to especially if you can get an investigative journalist interested http://www.ilkestonadvertiser.co.uk/
My thoughts as well
Taken from the linked thread reply 109 page 11
I am not sure how far Carol want's to go on this, but I sure the Media would be interested in this, you never know there maybe someone out there, that may have some handed down information that could help.
So if there is anyone on Roots that is involved in the Media your thought's on this
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I don't know now, 20 years ago I could have put Carol in touch with an investigative reporter in any of the Notts/Derby towns for any of the papers.
The Ilkeston Advertiser belongs to Johnson Press, as does the 'Belper News' ( think I remember something about Belper in the threads, may be wrong .... forgive me if I am) also the 'Chad' which covers several town in Notts and the 'Daventry Express' ( again I can't remember if the thread goes there) Leicester is the 'Leicester Mercury'
http://www.ilkestonadvertiser.co.uk/contact-us but as Johnson Press own lots of them, if Ilkeston was contacted it will run in the others they own covering several areas........ 20 years ago I would have loved to be able to investigate and print this story.
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Karen, I won't start watching for the mailman just yet then ... I'm anxious to have these certificates in-hand.
With respect to the media issue, I completely understand the interest and the sense that it could prove to be very helpful. However ... deeply entrenched in my brain are my dear Mom's words that "blood is thicker than water". This story is not just mine. There are other 'real' people attached to it on the other end - real people with real lives who could end up being affected, negatively, by this story. I cannot 'knowingly' do that to them - I have to be able to sleep at night ... Once the proof of ancestry is known, I will try to connect with relatives and we'll go from there, so my preference would be to put the media issue on the back burner, if only for the time being.
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Hi,
excuse me butting in, but the Nottingham Post might be worth a shot for placing a story - Maybe aim it at the "Bygones" which is a monthly supplement that covers local history.
http://www.thisisnottingham.co.uk/people/Nottingham%20Post/profile.html#axzz2TkqKyF35
I would also suggest talking to Radio Nottingham and getting them on board:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radionottingham
Fascinating story, and I wish you good luck!
best wishes,
Copperbeech5
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Speaking of Harry Potter and wizards:
Found this http://www.ilkestonhistory.org.uk/history/familyhistory/portraits1/portraits1.htm (http://www.ilkestonhistory.org.uk/history/familyhistory/portraits1/portraits1.htm)
on Ilkeston and District Local History Society webpage.
Scroll down to "Dr Harry Potter, born 1854 Ilkeston"
Susan
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Susan, lol, thanks for that - how interesting. I guess that I shouldn't have dismissed all those 'Harry Potter' pages on google. ;)
Is there any census information on this man and his family? I know there is nothing concrete connecting us, but I'm curious ... also, if I were to grow a moustache (lol) I would probably look exactly like him! Seriously! lol
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1911 census information removed
1901
Living in Cheltenham, Gloucester
Harry Potter 46 Surgeon
Frances Potter 43
Edith C Potter 18
Winifred E Potter 17
Olive M Potter 15
Samuel L Potter 11
Eva Potter 9
Minnie E Roberts 10 - Servant
1891
Living in Ilkeston
Harry Potter 36 - General Practitioner (Registered)
Frances Potter 32
Edith C Potter 8
Winifred E Potter 7
Clare M Potter 6
Samuel L Potter 1
William H Date 25 - GP
Marie A Packham 30 - Governess
Sarah J Coulon 26 - Servant
Ellen Fraser 17
Lily Negus 17
1881
Hard to find - maybe on Honeymoon with Frances
1871
At home with widowed mother, Ann, in Ilkeston
Ann Potter 42 - Widowed - Colliery Proprietor and Farmery - born Stapleford, Nottingham
Annie C Potter 20
Samuel S Potter 18
Harry Potter 16
Florence E Potter 14
Oh, and no growing a moustache to match Harry !!!
Susan
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Thank you Susan - so the mother, Ann, and family, were also from Ilkeston ... how about this ... somewhere I saw that a Susan Ellen Hall, b. 1845 (sister to James?) married a Daniel Potter, b. 1834. I can't help but wonder, and this is pure speculation, whether this is somehow connected (but I'm not losing sleep over it) ;) Could Daniel Potter perhaps be related to the Ann, shown above? This 'could' explain why I am matching with Fisher's, Hall's and Potter's. Again, it's purely speculation ...
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oops keep forgetting about 1911 census data. Sorry.
Cannot find any marriage for Susan Ellen and Daniel.. I probably do not have good enough resources.
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Hi Carol,
Been browsing and found something which might interest you....or could be a complete red herring.
Being inspired by the Harry Potter of the 1891 Census etc I found a family of a William Potter on the same Census at Basford Nottinghshire all of whom were born Ilkeston.
William age 40
Elizabeth age 38
Tom age 18
James H age 16
Mary E age 11
Samuel age 9
Enock age 6
Harris age 3.
Looked for births on www.freebmd's and hit a blank but interestingly there is a birth of an Enoch HALL registered at Basford in 1885. Can't find an Enoch Hall on 1891 Census but he turns up at Ilkeston on the 1901 Census which I don't have full access to (just Family Search)
Almost reluctant to post this as I don't want to be leading you off the path. But because there is a James of around the right age and because I found the birth of a Mary Ellen Hall (yeah I know ...common name) registered at Basford in 1880, again matching the above Mary E Potter I decided to stick this on. Perhaps other Rootschatters with more resources and with better access to English records than myself could have a look see what they make of this family ;D.
Sorry if it's nothing,
Looby
Why the family would be alternating between names of Potter and Hall I don't know??
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Hi,
I have been following this sad thread and the remarkable work done by RootsChatters and wondered if the following on the 1861 census may be relevant
RG9/2496/82/pages 18-19 Kingsmead, Derbyshire
Charles Potter Head 52 Bootmaker b. Ashbourne
Mary Wife 52 Nurse b. Hanigan Berkshie
Eliza Dau 24 Dessmaker b. Ashbourne
Emma Dau 20 Silkwinder “
Mary Dau 15 “ “
Robert Son 12 Scholar “
William Hall S.i.l 26 Gas fitter b. London
Louisa Hall Dau 23 b. Ashbourne
Louisa Hall G.Dau 8mths b. Derbyshire
Marriage Dec. Q 1859 Derby ref. 7b 765
William Edwin Hall = Louisa Potter
Again this this probably another red herring.
Good luck in your search.
Sue
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Is it Enoch or Enock.
Looby, what date is the census you found with Enock age 6.
The Enoc(h) on 1901 is 17, but mum is Emma,
will keep looking
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Susan, thanks. What's the story with the 1911 census? It shows that '1911 census data removed'. ??
Looby - thanks! I find this very, very interesting. There is definitely a connection between the two families, but I'm not seeing it just yet. For information purposes ;) there is a "Mary Potter" in my match list, who I have not contacted.
In the family tree of one of my overall closest matches (Hilda Boomer) she has an "Abbie May Potter" daughter of "Holder White Potter" and "Sarah A. Codding". Parents of "Holder" are Joshua Potter and Deborah N. White.
I don't mean to go on about the Potter's when I'm really focussing on the Hall's and Fisher's, it's just that there has to be something I'm missing somewhere - there are just too many of them ...
Do you see an Abbie May Potter in your records?
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Carol,
I stupidly keep forgetting we cannot post 1911 census data.
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I have not been following the Potter part but just to say that the Potters mentioned by Looby are called Potter Crooks in 1881 and there is a birth for Mary Elizabeth P Crooks in 1880.
There are several births with the middle name Potter and surname Crooks - including Enoch.
Carol,
Family Search has a Holder W Potter with a daughter Abbie M born and living in Massachusetts in 1841 so any Derbyshire/Nottinghamshire/Leicestershire link to that family at the moment seems unlikely.
heywood
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SWar - thanks - this begins to make some sense ... the age of that William Hall, b. 1835, could very well be James Hall's grandfather. James Hall's father, William, b. 1854 would fit right in. This would mean that the previous William and Ann Froggatt isn't the right family.
Thank you also Susan - I'm trying to put this together and appreciate your help.
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so now the Potter's are Crooks? What have I gotten myself into! :)
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thanks Heywood - good job! On that note, I'm ready to put the Potter's to bed until I resolve my Hall's and Fisher's. It's too much of a goose chase - likely someone crossed the pond and I don't want to get into all of that right now. I appreciate the look-up heywood - many thanks.
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so now the Potter's are Crooks? What have I gotten myself into! :)
But they are probably not your Crooks ;)
It might be best to wait until the marriage certificate re James Hall - that would give his father's occupation and help to trace him. At the moment, it is not known where he comes from - is it?
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So the family I've found on FreeCen 's 1891 Census - the Potters were originally Potter Crooks ???
So it looks like it was a red herring :-[.
Are they on the 1901 as Crooks or Potters or what ??
Seemed to good to be true - especially when I found Enock( transcribed on Freecen) Potter and then an Enoch Hall born same area and at same time.
Sorry Carol...thought it might be rubbish ...but then thought if I didn't get someone else to look at it.....????
I'm off to bed I think to hang my head :'(
Looby
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I'll pass on the Crooks ... we know that they aren't mine ;)
I have a birthdate for James Hall of 1876 and I think it goes like this: his father is William, born 1854 and that William's father is another William (married to Ann Froggatt). I don't have any locations noted. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. ;)
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LOL maybe those Crooks are Halls! sorry, couldn't resist.
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thanks Looby. Please rest your head, don't hang it. We need to change the language a bit on this thread. ;) I appreciate your help, whether it pans out or not.
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I'll pass on the Crooks ... we know that they aren't mine ;)
I have a birthdate for James Hall of 1876 and I think it goes like this: his father is William, born 1854 and that William's father is another William (married to Ann Froggatt). I don't have any locations noted. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. ;)
I just want it to be right. His father is William from the marriage and James was born abt 1876.
I can't see how William's father can be identified from that small detail.
Where does the Froggatt/Hall come from?
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You'll get there in the end Carol - I'm sure of it.
Meanwhile I wish you luck and will read on with interest to find out the info from the certs you've ordered.
Forget about Crooks and Potters ;D!
Best wishes and good night,
Looby
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I found the Froggatt/Hall marriage and remembered that it is part of the Hall/Fisher family tree, is that right?
There is no son James though.
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heywood, all I can tell you is that's what I have written in my notes. Hmmm. I think the Froggatt info surfaced in the first thread. I'll go back and take a look.
Good night Looby, thanks again for your help. Rest well.
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Heywood, I think that's right - if it's the right family, James arrived later - I seem to recall someone mentioned that there were 11 or 12 children, but I've lost track of who said what where.
Thank for your help!
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Carol,
there is so much info !
I think the story is that there was a Mary Jane Fisher who married two of the Hall brothers. She was the daughter of Isaac Fisher. There are several children in that Hall family, but there is no brother James.
Heywood :)
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This might help explain where the Fisher/Hall brothers/Froggatt comes in (I think I added this to the end of the timeline, but will just repost the relevant bit here). I think the first part is from an Ancestry tree which has no sources given, but the last part is from lookups by a rootschatter/s (apologies I cannot recall who :-[):
A family tree on Ancestry has:
Mary J Fisher - parents George and Harriett - born in Ilkeston, Derbyshire 1862
sister Harriett born 1874 (no sources given)
Mary J married brothers -
Samual Hall 1858 to 1891 and
Arthur Hall born 1869 Riddings, Derbyshire. Samual and Arthur's father is William, mother is Ann Froggatt.
The father William, was a labourer in an iron works on 1871 census. Can this tie in with his occupation given on James Hall and Harriet Fisher married in 1895, his father is William. What is his occupation? James Hall also claimed at his trial that when he marriet Mary Ann's mother he worked at the Stanton Ironworks Company.
In 1881 William is still working as an Ironworks labourer as are his sons. There is no sign of a James Hall with his family. William was born in Leicester, the family lived in Derby. All these places tie in with where James Hall is said to have been tramping.
I think it could be useful to contact any small local family history groups and newspapers in the area once you receive the certificates. You might find something on the families at local level. They may have some archived material (which may not be online - I see the Ilkeston Local History Society link seems to focus on the prominent people) which may give you more clues (not necessarily even about the case, but about the families in general). It may be a good excuse for you to take a holiday there Carol. ;) Alternatively there may be rootschatters who live locally who would be willing to chase this up for you if you wish.
But first, the certificates. :)
[PS. I can't rmember who asked, but Belper was mentioned in relation to Ann Froggatt - the place was swarming with Froggatts - I have some in my tree ;)}
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But that is a different Fisher family.
Harriet had an older sister but not Mary Jane. Another tree has MJ with a father Isaac, which is supported by census info.
That Hall/Froggatt family have connections with Belper but as far as I can see nothing to do with this James Hall.
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I just went back to the Timeline ... all we 'know' of Harriet Fisher's family is that her father was 'George'; all we know of James Hall's family is that his father is 'William'. Everything else that has followed is speculation, right? Hopefully there will be some solid information that will help sort out their family info. I hope to hear back from the Archives people before long or I'll have to get after them.
I have some very dear friends who live near Hampton Court in London who have been urging me to get my rear end over for a visit - I am just getting ready to list my house for sale and once it's sold, I think I'll go on a holiday (maybe an extended one!). I do have an EU/UK Passport. :)
I read that the Iron Company where the Halls were employed has changed name over the years and part of the name became "Staveley". I got goosebumps when I read that. To me, this is an uncommon name, I had only heard it once before in my life ... it was the name of my street when I lived in Montreal as a teenager. I know it's just a coincidence, but how bizarre.
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I just went back to the Timeline ... all we 'know' of Harriet Fisher's family is that her father was 'George'; all we know of James Hall's family is that his father is 'William'. Everything else that has followed is speculation, right? Hopefully there will be some solid information that will help sort out their family info.
You are correct. We only know the fathers of Harriet Fisher and James Hall. All other possible connections are just speculation. The certificates, we hope, will help in giving occupations plus other information so we can hunt for the families in earlier censuses.
It is possible further along that you may find that other Hall and Fisher families in Ilkeston may connect to 'your' line, but that is something for later.
After this search is completed (as far as it can ever be), keep in touch and let us know how you get on if you decide to take your extended holiday. ;D
PS. Good luck with the house sale.
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I second Ruskie's comments.
You need the certs .... I've lost track which ones you are waiting on but am assuming hall/fisher marriage and Mary Ann fisher birth are ones you have ordered?
The tree with a Mary Jane fisher marrying the 2 hall brothers has no sources and the further one looked the more weird it got .....
I did more trawling through newspapers looking for other James Hall mentions (looking for terms and locations that related) and found a few possibilities from years 1895 through to 1910 in the area. Seems a certain James hall (tramp and/or labourer) was a regular in Loughborough courts with one later report stating the man had been in trouble 30 times. Not long after a James hall was back in court and it seems he only had one leg. I can't be sure this guy is/was Harriet's husband. I'll type it all up and get it to you to add to your "possible information" pile.
All the best
Cocksie
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Some interesting finds in the newspapers Cocksie. :) Intriguing.
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Searching for James Hall's movements 1895-1910 British newspaper archives.
I figured that he was unlikely to have Esq after his name, or be a Rev, or a man of medecine, or have anything to do with any St James Hall concerts and events
Possibilities :
The Nottingham Evening Post, Wednesday March 18, 1914
PUBLIC HOUSE ROBBED
MONTH FOR A LOUGHBOROUGH LABOURER
James Hall, labourer, of Dead-lane, Loughborough, was charged a the local court to-day with stealing three pewter measures and a zinc tray and strainer, value 20s, the property of Messrs. Sidney Wells and Sons, brewers of Kegworth, on the 17th instant.
Arthur Wallis, traveller to the prosecutors, spoke to missing the articles from the Old Three Tuns public-house, which was recently clsoed. The back door was found open.
P.C. Wyles, hearing that a man had been in the house, set off on his cycle in the direction of Loughborough. Near the L.N.W. Station at Loughborough he overtook the prisoner, who was pushing a truck. Underneath a sack he found the missing articles, and on being questions he replied that he got them from a heap of rubish at the back of the Old Three Tuns.
Prisoner said he found some old bottles in the yard, and on looking through the open windows he saw the articles (produced), and thinking they were not wanted, he naturally took them.
There were over 30 previous convictions against Hall, and he was sent to prison for 28 days.
THE DERBY DAILY TELEGRAPH, Friday July 8 1904
TODAY'S POLICE NEWS
DERBY COUNTY HALL
Friday - Before Mr R Waite (in the chair), Mr. M. J. Astle, Mr. J. Borough, Mr. E. S. Milnes, and Mr. G. W. Peach .......
CYCLISTS IN TROUBLE
James Hall, a labourer, of Quarndon, was summoned for riding a bicycle without a lighted lamp attached at 10.35pm at Markeaton on June 23. - Police-constable Bilson spoke to finding the defendant without a lighted lamp on his bicycle and stopped him. Defendant at first complained that his lamp had been stolen, but afterwards admitted that it was a lie, and attmpeted to bribe witness not to report him. - A find of 5s. and costs was imposed.
The Leicester Chronicle and Leicestershire Mercury, Saturday April 21, 1900
Loughborough Petty Sessions
THEFT FROM AN EMPTY HOUSE - James Hall, Labourer, Bridge-street, was charged with stealing an iron pothook, window blind, and part of a fireplace, value 4s., the property of John Briley, retired butcher, on April 10th. - The evidence was that the articles named in the charge were taken from an empty house belonging to the prosecutor in Victoria-street. - Sergeant Holland arrested the prisoner, who was fined 20s., or seven days.
The Derby Daily Telegraph, Tuesday March 16, 1897
TODAY'S POLICE NEWS
DERBY BOROUGH COURT
Tuesday.-Before the Mayor (Ald. Sir Thomas Roe), Dr. W. Legge, and Mr R. Jefferson
DRUNKENNESS .........
James Hall was charged with a like offence in Iron-gate on Monday night.-Police-constable Culley said the prisoner was very drunk and using most abusive language. When taking him to the lock-up he used the most disgusting talk and threatened to "brain" the officer with his crutch. - Prisoner, who had only one leg, told the Bench it was no good him saying anything.- Fined 5s, and costs, or seven days with hard labour ....
(my note: actually probably not the James Hall I am looking for, particularly if he was "pushing a truck" in 1914)
There are a number of mentions of a James Hall, tramp, vagabond, coming under the heading of the Reading Borough Police Court ........ I think he is probably a different chap but .....
And another James Hall (with a wife Mary Hall) up on charges of child cruelty in Staffordshire area in 1903 (Hanley)- unlikely to be our Hall?
And yet another James Hall at the Salford Borough Police Court in 1900 up on charges with neglecting and abandoning 3 children, living in Pendleton, addicted to drink .... (unlikely as well methinks)
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Hi Everyone
Carol, I really think you need to start checking out the prison registers. I think this is what you really need to have someone look at: http://tinyurl.com/kqbppot
Leicestershire Family History Society
Family History Societies have a wealth of experience and knowledge of useful records. I think it is £15 for an oversees member to join for a year. You may get some great assistance from members
http://lrfhs.org.uk/
They also have a surname interest table which includes many people researching Fisher's and Hall's
I do agree the with Chatter(s) who said you should wait for the documents you have ordered. I also agree with others in that you need to stop trying to fit your DNA name profiles up with possible people . I think you are going well off beam and ‘potty’ with Potters. Personally, I would want to verify this Fisher /Hall connection first with proof! I don't think that the birth cert will provide the name of the father - I'm sure that will be blank. But you should get the address where the mother was living at the time of Mary Ann's birth which should be quite helpful.
Leicestershire Researchers
Although we all like to do our own research sometimes because of distance or lack of knowledge in a particular area we all need help! I found this list online. I would consider it at this stage. Cost of a researcher vs. airfare/hotels/travel expenses. I think it would be money will spent.
http://greatauntyalice.com/researchers/england/east-midlands/leicestershire-researchers/
PS - Love the newspaper articles Cocksie :) I'm sure there are other reports of Hall kicking about. I wonder if he ever went by an alias? :-X
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Hi,
Loved the newspaper reports Cocksie. Although I agree they are probably not all the same James Hall ( the James Hall of 1904 was riding a bike).
Imagine giving your address as Dead Lane ;D I love that. Googling it I discovered it no longer exists but used to run off Bridge Street - which sort of ties in with the theft of 1900 in the same area. The workhouse/ model lodging house wasn't far away either.
Well we may never know...unless California Dreamin's suggestion of prison registers comes up trumps!
Looby ;)
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Hi Carol
I agree with advice to wait for the certificates before going any further (and I look forward to hearing what they may throw up). However that said there is never any harm in burrowing around and collecting information which may prove useful in future!
Good luck with your house sale
Jan ;)
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Carol
I see back in 2008 (on another forum) there were posts about the existence of vaccination records from 1862 for the county. At the time you were trying to find Mary Ann Williams. Did you follow this up? Just wondering if this is worth revisiting with the name Mary Ann Fisher
Cocksie
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Hi Carol
I came across your thread when searching for the Basford Workhouse and it has touched the very core of me. The kindness of the people on here is overwhelming.
In my search for info surrounding the Basford Workhouse I came across an old thread with a list of births from the Workhouse, the time period is march 8th 1878 to sept 9th 1903. There is a Mary Ann Fisher listed. There are however, 7 births of Mary Ann Fisher recorded in the time frame on FreeBMD.
I wish you all the luck in the world
Stainy
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Hi Cocksie
That really is an inspired suggestion
Here is the URL for Leceistershire Archives: http://tinyurl.com/lfq6wp3
Definitely worth looking for those.
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These records look interesting too!
Vagrancy:
http://tinyurl.com/kdg7uzo
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Cocksie,
The newspaper articles make very interesting reading. There are obviously a few bad eggs named James Hall in the area. As the James Hall in this case was 'tramping' I do wonder if any of these are him. But still very worthwhile having as some of them may fit in with 'our' :P James Hall. There is the possibility that he may have had an alias at some stage.
Your suggestion about trying to find the vaccination records for Mary Ann Fisher is an excellent idea.
So it would be ideal to have a volunteer or two 'on the ground' so to speak, who is willing to do a bit of detective work for prison records and, depending on whether or not the Nottingham Archives gets back to Carol, maybe chasing up Workhouse records too. (I suppose Nottingham Archives are understaffed and overworked like most Archives. :) )
It is up to Carol's of course, but as it is fact that James Hall was the man who abused Mary Ann, maybe prison records will give additional details. Perhaps these could be searched while waiting for the certificates? I'm sure if Carol were to put the call out, there would be someone more than happy to help.
Just an idea. :)
PS, Some excellent links California dreamin. :) They look promising. As James was tramping, it is worth doing checks in both counties - Derbyshire too? I can't remember which were mentioned in the last thread
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Hi Ruskie
I must have lost the plot ??? I have been thinking Leicestershire and not Notts :-[ ! Apply all my suggestions to Nottingham too Carol
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In my search for info surrounding the Basford Workhouse I came across an old thread with a list of births from the Workhouse, the time period is march 8th 1878 to sept 9th 1903. There is a Mary Ann Fisher listed. There are however, 7 births of Mary Ann Fisher recorded in the time frame on FreeBMD.
Hi Stainy
Just adding the link to the births at Basford Workhouse that you mentioned in case it does turn out that Harriet gave birth to Mary Ann at the Workhouse:
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/NOTTSGEN/2008-05/1210224407
Monica
Added: See there is also an Alice Hall http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/NOTTSGEN/2008-05/1210302509. Again a possibility? All guesses for now though as we don't know the dates these births occured...but just more potential corroboration at this stage to what has been discussed/found so far.
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Good morning to all, and thanks to each one of you for your suggestions - definitely worth following up on.
In my inbox this morning, I found the following reply from the Nottingham Archives people (I had mentioned to them that Harriet, daughter Alice and son John were all showing as residents of the Workhouse in the 1911 census):
"Reference: DB/EH/70/3/13-1160
Please Ask For: Search Room
Dear Ms Reid
Thank you for your email of 17 May 2013.
We can confirm that we hold the Nottingham Union Workhouse records. We have consulted the following records:
Ref: SO/PUO/2/6/9
Indexes to indoor relief lists, 1905 - c1910
Names not found
Ref: SO/PUO/2/1/44
Admission and discharge register, Aug 1910 - May 1911
Names not found.
Please note that there are earlier registers dating back to 1856 and later registers up to 1920 but there is a gap from May 1911 - May 1919 (Ref: SO/PUO/2/1/1-45)."
So ... that wasn't very helpful ... :(
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This is where you need to roll up your sleeves on a personal search, and get stuck in to the records to see how else they may be entered. Not just around the time of the census, but historically. It may well also be that Harriet's death was also at the workhouse (I think it was Ruskie who found a possible death not too many years after 1911 where the registration district fitted?).
Frustrating Carol, but doesn't mean there is nothing there, just maybe the person at the archives is unable due to time pressures to do further checks? Might be worth checking with this person who has emailed, what exactly has been checked (name of document/archive) so that you have it on record.
You are in this for the long run....
Monica
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Thanks Monica - I'm not about to let this latest bit of info slow me down - it's a hurdle, there have been lots of them along the way ... and there will likely be (hopefully) just a couple more! ;)
Fingers crossed that the certificates will prove more fruitful. I have ordered Mary Ann Fisher's birth certificate; the marriage certificate of James Hall and Harriet Fisher; and Harriet Fisher's death certificate.
I wasn't aware that there was a registry for vaccinations - I had enquired (years ago) about this and was told that vaccination was mandatory and it would be impossible to track - in hindsight, that was correct, as her name was wrong! It's definitely worth pursuing. Thanks for that information, and all of the clippings, etc. I am so very grateful for everyone's efforts! It's unfortunate that the names we are dealing with are so common. Onwards ...
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Just took a peek at the Basford Workhouse listing - thanks for the link!
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Monica it was another chatter (not me ;)) who found the death of a Harriet Fisher, in 1919 I think.
Looking at the information from the Notts Archives, it seems that because you said you found Harriet and the children in the Workhouse in 1911, they have only checked the years around the 1911 census.
Harriet Fisher was in the Basford Workhouse in the 1901 census and the Bagthorpe Workhouse in the 1911 census. She could have gone from Basford to Bagthorpe any time between 1901 and 1911, so checking admission/discharge between 1910 and 1911 may not pick her up.
Agree with Monica, you need the personal touch in this search. :) [I would try the Notts board myself to request a lookup] ;D
[Nice of the archives to look and respond so quickly though]
[I have just re-read this post and I think I'm saying exactly the same thing as Monica did :-[]
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Ruskie, my in-experience shows ... I thought that I was being helpful by providing Archives with a timeframe - I will try this again ... thanks for your help.
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And ask the archives to look under the surnames Hall and Fisher ...
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Ruskie, my in-experience shows ... I thought that I was being helpful by providing Archives with a timeframe - I will try this again ... thanks for your help.
If you had given them a broad timeframe they may not be willing or able to spend time searching. Still unsure how thorough they would be. (sorry to be a little sceptical ;) and this may be competely unfounded). I don't know how their records are kept - a search may be a simple matter of looking through an alphabetical list of names with none or very little chance of 'missing' her, but if it is complicated and time consuming .... :-\
I may be completely wrong .... :)
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Hi Ruskie - I hear you ... and I wondered whether I had one crack at it ... one name, one date and that's it. I advised them that Harriet had been shown on the 1911 census in the Workhouse, with her children. When I sent my second reply to them earlier today, I was a bit more specific with the dates of the two different census(es?) (plural of census?) ;) showing the two different Workhouses and the variation in the names between Harriet and her children. Hopefully someone will not look at this with blinders on.
I also posted a look-up request on the Nottingham board on this site, asking for help locating the families of James Hall and Harriet Fisher - hopefully something will come of it. Fingers crossed.
Thanks for the guidance provided by everyone!
Sometimes I wonder if Harriet is even the mother, and Hall the father ... perhaps the certificates will arrive by the end of the week. I'm anxious to see them.
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I know you are waiting in anticipation of certificates, but I stumbled across this:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/N68Q-19C
Someone mentioned CROOKES..
It flew out at me, especially as the mother (of possibly James Hall) was Mary ALICE Crookes. Wasn't Alice one of his supposed children with Harriett?
Nt Nt
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Hi Susan, thanks for the information. Darned Crooks have surfaced again! ;)
Yes, you're right about Harriet's younger daughter, she was "Alice Hall" who was 2 years old in the 1901 census.
In looking at the dates, my notes show James Hall b. 1876; father William b. 1854, therefore, the birth-dates for the William who married Alice Crooke, doesn't fit.
Thanks for looking at this though!
Sleep tight!
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I can't wait for the certificates either (and it's not even my family ;D)
It will be interesting to see if Notts Archives will be prepared to have another look for you with the additional information you provided. Also, I hope you get some volunteer helpers on the Notts board or I'm going to look pretty silly for repeatedly suggesting that you post there. :-X
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I, also, cannot wait for the certs.
I see you are getting some response on the Notts board.
Due to my own current unmoveable brick walls I have been checking/looking up/following back Fisher families in Ilkeston - on the basis that the certs will confirm and potentially add info to what chatterers have found....... Which may not happen but i am an optomist.
The good news is that Harriet Fisher's parents (assuming George and Harriet) are very very easy to follow backwards in time through the censuses, to George's father (and grandfather) and George's siblings. Red herrings and possibilities are also easily discarded. And seemingly few conundrums with life events in sequence (ie marriage, followed by birth etc all registered).
It will be such fun!
I have also checked that family tree (mentioned on this thread and the old one) against records and documents. Yes George and Harriet fisher did have an elder daughter Mary Ann in ilkeston. And yes a Mary Ann fisher did marry an Arthur Hall (whether the 2 Mary Ann fishers are one and the same is not 100% but seems highly likely) I cannot substantiate that she ever married another hall brother as yet (and cannot work out when she had the time to do so).
And the only Harriet marrying a George fisher is a Harriet Orme - as already posted on this and the other threads.....
Hurry up certs!
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In looking at the dates, my notes show James Hall b. 1876; father William b. 1854, therefore, the birth-dates for the William who married Alice Crooke, doesn't fit.
Just as a by and by comment...where have the dates for father William's birth of c. 1854 come from?!
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I have also checked that family tree (mentioned on this thread and the old one) against records and documents. Yes George and Harriet fisher did have an elder daughter Mary Ann in ilkeston. And yes a Mary Ann fisher did marry an Arthur Hall (whether the 2 Mary Ann fishers are one and the same is not 100% but seems highly likely) I cannot substantiate that she ever married another hall brother as yet (and cannot work out when she had the time to do so).
Hurry up certs!
Just to say it was Mary Jane Fisher (father Isaac) who married Samuel Hall. There is then a marriage for Mary Jane Hall to Arthur Hall.
There is so much information (and red herrings) in the threads, that it does become quite confusing. ;)
Similarly, re the William Hall born 1854, there is nothing yet known of James Hall's father - other than his name.
heywood
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Good morning chatters! So ... the day starts with a second reply from the Archives people (grrrr).
"Reference: RB/70/3/13-1174/Reid
Please Ask For: Searchroom
Dear Mrs Reid,
Thank you for your email of 20 May 2013.
We hold the following records for the Basford Workhouse that could be searched for references to the Fisher family.
Reference:
SO/PUB/1/45/1 List of children maintained in the workhouse, 20th cent.
To pursue this line of enquiry further you may consider using our Research Service or employing a local Record Agent (independent researcher). Please see the following webpage for further details: http://www.nottinghamshire.gov.uk/learning/history/archives/enquiryresearchservices/.
Nottinghamshire Archives does not hold any admission and discharge registers for the Basford workhouse from the 20th century.
The Nottingham University Department of Manuscripts and Special Collections holds an admission and discharge register for the workhouse infirmary, 1895 - 1950, and can be contacted at the address below:
"
How frustrating ...
Is there any way to clarify the following:
In the 1881 census, 11 Charlotte St., Ilkeston, Harriet Fisher, 49, shows as b. Cotmanhay, Derbyshire.
In the 1851 census, South Street, Ilkeston, Harriet Orme, 19, shows as b. Ilkeston
Also, assuming that this Harriet (b. c 1832) is 'my' Harriet's mother, it appears she may also have died at a (relatively) young age - there seems to be a pattern here. Would it be possible to find the older Harriet's death information? She appears in the 1881 census but not in 1891.
Thank you!
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http://www.ilkestonhistory.org.uk/history/familyhistory/fhintroduction.htm
Another avenue to look into if you haven't already :o check out 'PROJECTS' certainly your story would be of great interest
....and for Basford http://www.nottshistory.org.uk/articles/mellorsarticles/basford1.htm
You are aware I am sure that you are working on the border of two countries Ilkeston is Derbyshire, Basford is Nottinghamshire.... I still suggest you make contact with Ilkeston History Society who DOES have members who are local and I have no doubt will help you directly.
I have read what you say about living 'family' etc however once you post on the web it is no longer personal and no different to asking directly to the people who will help and are living in the area and the public documents you are looking at viewing ( or attempting to) are open for all and everyone to see
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Deaths Dec 1890 Fisher Harriet 58yrs Basford 7b 90
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Cotmanhay is a village about a mile or so north of Ilkeston and now joined to it - so the two places of birth for Harriet senior are not necessarily a problem. It would however be worth checking that Harriet nee Orme didn't die and then George remarry another Harriet.
Jan ;)
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Hi, there is an entry in the 1861 Census for a George Fisher and Harriett Fisher stating Harriett was born in Ilkeston, Derbyshire. On that Census they have a daughter Mary A aged 5 months.
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Also in the 1871 Census record Harriet Fisher is listed as born in Ilkeston, Derbyshire but the parish she, George and Mary Ann were living in is Cotmanhay and Shipley.
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I can't see a death for Harriett Fisher senior between 1871 and 1881 or a suitable remarriage for George to another Harriet, so I think it is the same lady in 1881.
Jan ;)
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Just for reference the info for the above mentioned family is also on the Notts board.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,647659.0.html
Maddie
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Thank you for the comments and the information provided. Once the certificates arrive and I am able to (hopefully) confirm the relationships, I will order the death certificate for the senior Harriet - I have noted the information, thank you. There is a "lifespan" pattern surfacing amongst the Fisher women which I am interested in so hopefully the certificates will address that issue as well.
Thank you also for suggesting I contact the local historical society, I will pursue that. I also appreciate being reminded of internet privacy.
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Carol,
I'm not sure what the others think, but I would copy and paste both of the replies that you got from the Notts Archives into your other thread. They will then have some idea what you are hoping to find regarding the family, namely Workhouse Records and Police records, and maybe other local records.
THis will also save the Notts folks from having to go back and forth through your two other posts to try to find information. Also, maybe a brief summary of the case might help (perhaps tell them where to find the transcript of the article and the timeline)- If they want to read the entire story with more detailed information they can refer to the other posts.
We are in danger of having parallel threads with duplicate information unless you are specific in what you ask for. :) Eg maybe the title of the Nottinghamshire thread could be "Nottinghamshire Archives Lookup Request -Workhouse/Police Records" (or some such thing ;)) I must stress that these are just my personal thoughts and others may not agree or may have alternative views and (better) advice. ;D
Fingers crossed for a helpful volunteer to do some lookups. ;D
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go for it Ruskie... good idea, nothing worse than finding another thread with all the info needed or worse already found! If I lived within reach I would have gone to the Archives myself.
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Alright...I confess and apologise ;D
I posted the Fisher family info on Notts because that is what Carol asked for. I was thinking that the amount of info is overwhelming and although I knew some was posted on these threads, thought it would save someone searching again.
I then (too late) realised that the Fishers are Derbyshire, not Notts which was the board.
Ilkeston Family History seems a good idea and also a specific request for a Nottingham based person to help with those workhouse records etc.
I have posted references to these threads now.
Heywood :)
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Adding this for you Carol as it may be some help once you have more information http://www.lastchancetoread.com/
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Thank you for your comments ... I have been wondering about this all day today, as I didn't want a duplication of information on the threads, which is why I specifically mentioned in the Nottingham thread that I had success on this one but was hoping someone on the N'ham thread would be willing to do look-ups for Workhouse and police records.
I really would prefer to have all of the information in one place, it's much easier to track, and control. This morning, I sent a condensed version of the story to the Ilkeston Historical Society and asked for their help. For now, I don't think that there's much more we can do until I hear back from them, and receive those certificates.
Many thanks for your help, and guidance!
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I got lucky! I am 'pasting' part of the reply that I received from the Ilkeston Historical Society! :)
" I see on the 1851 census for Ilkeston the Thomas you refer to. I also have
on my records what appears to be his birth/baptism at Ilkeston St.Marys
church in 1805. If this is indeed the same Thomas Fisher then he was born
the illegitimate son of an Esther Fisher who may be the same Esther Fisher
who born in 1774 the daughter of Thomas and Ann Fisher. I am only
speculating but if this is the correct line you may find you are distantly
related to my self but I would have to look carefully at this before going
any further.
I also have what appears to be his wife Mary nee Calladine. They were
married at St.Marys in 1829. She was born 1808 the daughter of Thomas and
Elizabeth Calladine. Again this is only assuming we are looking at the same
people though it looks that way at the moment.
You may hav noticed that the ages people give on the census's were not
necessarily correct. I notice that in 1941 Thomas' wife Mary is 30 yet 10
years later in 1851 she is 43!
"
We might be related! How lucky can one get??!! He has asked me to provide as much information as I have, so I'm going to go 'full out' with everything, as he will likely help in this.
I can't believe the help that I'm getting - I'm over the moon! Thank you so much to all of you!!
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That all sounds very favourable, Carol :)
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Really pleased Carol, I knew you would get help there...fingers crossed for you xxxx
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Awww, thats great news Carol!! Keep us posted, iv found myself very addicted to this thread of late. Good luck
Stainy
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Good luck with it all Carol, I wait with baited breath. :)
Trish
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Alright...I confess and apologise ;D
Oh no no no. No one is to blame, no one is at fault, no apologies necessary. ;D It is always difficult with threads that are so closely related and cross over several counties. There has to be some duplicated information. ;D
Carol, what a speedy helpful response from Ilkeston Historical Society! Did you send them a copy of the article about Mary Ann? If not they will probably be interested to read it.
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Ok, I am officially lost/confused/stupid. :-[
Who is the Thomas Fisher referred to by the Ilkeston Historical Society chap? I thought Harriett Fisher's father was George Fisher? :-[
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There is no need whatsoever for anyone here to be apologizing for anything. What a great group of people.
Thomas Fisher is George Fisher's father. The guy at Ilkeston (my cousin! a somewhat distant one) went backwards instead of forward, I think it's because my connection with him is through this Thomas Fisher. ;) I responded to that information by asking about 'my' Harriet's other children and enquired about James Hall. He's going to take a look and see what he can find. He also offered to show me around town should I decide to visit. :) Life is good. Oh ... I offered to send copies of the newspaper articles, which I referenced in my email to him. He didn't respond so perhaps he has access to them himself - I gave him dates, etc. I'll let you know when the next installment from him arrives.
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I am allowing myself to apologize! ;) I misled you with the above information.
Here is the information that I received in my second email for the Ilkeston Historical Society. (George Fisher's father, Thomas Fisher's mother was "Esther Fisher", daughter of Thomas Fisher and Ann Flinders, who married in 1754.)
"Anyway I shall try and take time to look at where the Fisher line goes to in
Ilkeston. My reference to you possibly being a distant relative comes from
the marriage of Ann Flinders to Thomas Fisher in 1754 if I am right they had
quite a few children over a period of 20 years, Esther included.
If she was the mother of your Thomas then that makes us very distant
cousins."
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Hi Carol
I too have been following this sad but fascinating story with great interest. I wonder if it may be useful to send a link to the Rootschat threads to your Ilkeston contact so that he can see for himself all the info that has been found (if he's got few hours spare to read it all ;D)
Jool
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Here is the information that I received in my second email for the Ilkeston Historical Society. (George Fisher's father, Thomas Fisher's mother was "Esther Fisher", daughter of Thomas Fisher and Ann Flinders, who married in 1754.)
Ah thank you! ;D
Let's hope this is the right family for you Carol. A nice little tree is growing.
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:) Jool, thanks for the suggestion. In my next exchange with him, I'll ask if he's interested in being inundated with his family info! ;)
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You're most welcome Ruskie. And to think that a week ago, I knew absolutely nothing about my grandmother! Our history in this part of the world is not very old, so this feels very 'old'. It's mind-boggling, in all honesty.
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You're most welcome Ruskie. And to think that a week ago, I knew absolutely nothing about my grandmother! Our history in this part of the world is not very old, so this feels very 'old'. It's mind-boggling, in all honesty.
Amazing isn't it. I live in Australia so I understand how you feel about the history. ;)
I like Jool's suggestion about giving your Ilkeston 'cousin' links to these threads. Much of it happened in his neck of the woods so he'll probably be interested - you never know, it might lead to more discoveries about the families ...
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Smashing news Carol. Let's hope the link can be made for you.
Will be watching, wating and hoping :)
Susan
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Good morning. I received a reply from my contact at Ilkeston Historical Society asking for copies of the newspaper articles, so I have sent both. I also sent him the 'timeline' from this thread, noting that we are awaiting confirmation from certificates.
Thanks to everyone!!!
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Carol, I am so pleased you have found this person "on the ground" at the Ilkeston FHS. Can't think of anything better or more helpful at this stage.
Monica
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Good morning. I received a reply from my contact at Ilkeston Historical Society asking for copies of the newspaper articles, so I have sent both. I also sent him the 'timeline' from this thread, noting that we are awaiting confirmation from certificates.
Thanks to everyone!!!
That's really good news Carol!
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I hope all of my amazing Rootschatter friends are well. Today is Friday, and still no sign of any certificates, but hopefully they are on their way ...
Somewhere in one of the 2 threads (I think) someone provided me with information on a Potter line but we ruled them out because they had left the UK for the US. I looked for the information, thinking it might help my Potter relative who is in the US, but I can't find the information anywhere. I tried the 'search' feature but it still didn't show up. Would anyone know where that information might be?
Thanks!
Carol
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Hopefully clicking on that link will take you to the "Potter" part on your original thread
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,646926.msg4940148.html#msg4940148
Karen
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Hi KarenM, and thanks for that, but there was another exchange where someone posted information on a line of Potter's (it was almost like a tree) with individual names and dates, and I can't find it for the life of me.
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There's a whole Potter section in this thread with all the census info...is that what you are after? I can't see anything else in this (or the other 2 threads) which look like they have lots of info.
Did you try this?.... Click the "print" button top right of the thread which will bring up the whole thread with all the pages on one page. You can then do a FIND for Potter by pressing you Ctrl+F keys.
That will highlight all the potter mentions within the thread
Milly
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millymcb - thank you! What a great feature, and the information was all there. :) Can't thank you enough!
Cheers.
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What time does the postman deliver your mail :)? Hopefully you will get the certificates this week.
Karen
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Carole, I sent off for a death cert from the GRO the day after reading that you'd sent for yours, and mine arrived on Saturday, so hopefully yours are on their way. Good luck, incredible story.
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Many people holding their breaths on that one ;D
Monica
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Great people all of you are!! Thank you for your continued support with all of this. I'm still waiting ... nothing has arrived in the mail yet. My mail is usually delivered between 3:00-4:00 pm. I'll be watching anxiously for tomorrow's mail to arrive.
Deirdre, are you right around the corner from the GRO? ;) We haven't had Saturday mail delivery for um, more years then I hate to admit! ;)
Hopefully I'll be here tomorrow with some positive news!
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My best wishes Carol for a positive result :) :) :)
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...Deirdre, are you right around the corner from the GRO? ;) We haven't had Saturday mail delivery for um, more years then I hate to admit! ;)
No, I'm in Cardiff, about 200 miles away; still get Saturday post here ;D
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Cardiff's a great place - I have been there a couple of times. Very, very dear friends are in Dinas Powys. You're spoiled, receiving mail on Saturday!
Ballydw, thank you for your kindness.
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Nope ... nothing in today's mail ... Fingers crossed for tomorrow ...
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Oh my poor heart - every time I see a new post :D ;)
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so sorry Heywood ... I'll refrain from posting until I have something (hopefully) concrete. ;)
Definitely a test of one's patience ...
The next time I order a certificate, I'll use someone in Cardiff's address! ;)
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The next time I order a certificate, I'll use someone in Cardiff's address! ;)
I did wonder about that! You would get them quicker as we could scan and email them....
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I likely won't need to order any others Deirdre, but thank you - I do believe that the address has to match that of the credit card account. In any event, they should be arriving soon - they might be crossing the Atlantic in a canoe. ;) GRO should cut-back on their postal and paper expenses and send the certificates via email, for those who request it ... in my humble opinion ... ;)
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No worries Carole, hopefully they'll arrive in a few days. But yes, I agree with the certs, it would be great (and cheaper) if we could simply have electronic copies for family history purposes.
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Carol
You may not realise that Monday was a bank holiday in the UK, so unless your cert were posted before the weekend.... then the earliest would be today.....
It is awful waiting for things like certs especially with snail mail we all expect everything instantly now
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Thanks Iluleah - The GRO confirmation that I received after ordering the certs indicated a "Despatch date of 21/5" (est).
I wait ... and try very hard to be patient ...
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Rootschatters! Received 1 of 3 - Certified copy of an entry of Death.
1919 Death in Nottingham South East
No. 245, Seventh March 1919, Maternity Hospital, Queen's Walk, n.D.(?)
Harriett Fisher
Female
45 years
of 6 Wellington Square, Ronald Street, Nottingham, Wife of Walter Fisher, Printer (journeyman)
Puerpural (?) sepsis and acute bronchitis
Annie Wilson, Daughter, present at the death, 33 Besington (?) Street, Nottingham
So Rootschatters, what do you think? I suspect this is a different Harriet.
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Hi Carol,
That's a disappoinment! I would agree that is a different person. Let's hope there is better news in the others.
Heywood
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Rootschatters! Received 1 of 3 - Certified copy of an entry of Death.
1919 Death in Nottingham South East
No. 245, Seventh March 1919, Maternity Hospital, Queen's Walk, n.D.(?)
Harriett Fisher
Female
45 years
of 6 Wellington Square, Ronald Street, Nottingham, Wife of Walter Fisher, Printer (journeyman)
Puerpural (?) sepsis and acute bronchitis
Annie Wilson, Daughter, present at the death, 33 Besington (?) Street, Nottingham
So Rootschatters, what do you think? I suspect this is a different Harriet.
Does look like a different person - that's a shame :( Hope the other certificates prove more helpful
Jan ;)
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Aw Carol,
Fingers crossed for today. ;)
Susan
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Another day ... another certificate ... why can't this be easy ... ok, here goes ...
Certified Copy of an Entry of Birth
1895 Birth in the sub-district of Basford, in the Co. Bor. of N'ham and Co. of N'ham
No. 497
Fifth October 1895, Basford Workhouse, Nottingham (Exmunicipal)
Mary Ann
Girl
FATHER - BLANK!!!!
Harriett Fisher, Domestic Servant of Ilkeston
Occupation of Father - BLANK!!
Informant: W. Turnbull, Master, Union Workhouse, Basford.
Registered: Thirtieth October 1895
:'(
I wonder if Harriett was a 'domestic servant' to a family of "Potter's" ...
Now what do we do?? The missing certificate is that of the marriage of Harriett Fisher and James Hall.
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Hi Carol
I've been following your threads with interest. This sort of certificate is so frustrating!!
I believe that the father of an illegitimate child could only be named as long as he was present at the registration. Someone will put me right if I am wrong.
I wonder whether Mary Ann was baptised....if she was, the father may be named on the baptism entry, especially if she was baptised after Harriet and James married. Just a thought.
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In a way it's kindof good, at least you know it could potentially be the correct certificate, and not a waste of money :-\
I believe snowyw is correct in that the father must be present.
Karen
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Hi Carol.
I stayed up well past my bedtime one night the other week reading your amazing search for your grandmother. I don't know why you are disappointed !! That cert is a perfect match to the 'scenario' that everyone (take a bow) has constructed. Mary Anne had to be illegitimate in order for Harriet to be able to marry James Hall a few months later, also 'domestic servant' fits well with the description of 'charwoman' in 1911. If she had have been married at the time she would be entitled to name her husband as father, whether he was or not (unless he made his displeasure known to the priest as my own gg grandfather did on the birth of his wife's 4th child !) . As a single woman, the man had to acknowledge the child for his name to be recorded. I agree, getting the baptism information would be good - informants names may help even if the father is still not named. If I were you I would also be tempted to get the birth certs of the Alice and John, children of Harriet in the Workhouse in 1911 and see if you can build up a better picture of her through them, perhaps pin her down to to a location or address outside of the workhouse.
Have now joined the club waiting for your postman's next visit !
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KarenM, I'm quite convinced that we have the right person with this certificate. Thinking about Harriett, perhaps she didn't know who the father was - part of me is hoping that James Hall is not the father. She did name one of the three children 'Hall" so maybe there is a message here ... or perhaps it's just wishful thinking on my part ...
Hasta, I'm not disappointed - I'm sure it's the correct certificate - I'm disappointed that there isn't more information provided. I am really happy to have my grandmother's correct birthday. I also happened to be born on the 5th (but not October).
If some kind soul can access the information for baptism, (my records show Jan. 29, 1896, Ilkeston) as well as Alice Hall (b. 1899, Basford) and John Fisher's (b. 1905, Basford) information, I will place another order at GRO.
Thanks!
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If she was not married, Mary Ann could not be Hall, even if he was the father.
I have checked family search to see if they hold the baptism records for Basford, but they have none for Nottinghamshire! >:(
Seems the only way to get that information is the Notts archive. They have records for the workhouse too. I know a plea has gone out for anyone going there - I hope someone will come forward. ::)
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snowyw, my notes indicate that baptism took place on Jan. 29, 1896 in Ilkeston, Derbyshire.
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Ah! If I had checked back, I would have seen that!
Maybe someone in Derbyshire can check it out.
OR
If she was baptised Church of England, the records are held by the mormons.
https://familysearch.org/search/catalog/560695
There are other church records too.
If you have a Mormon family history centre close by, anyone can visit and they will get the church records for you to browse. I have used my local centre on many occasions and the people there are very helpful. It costs very small amount for them to get the film and they keep it for several weeks so you can check it over a period of time.
https://familysearch.org/locations/centerlocator
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Unfortunately, FamilySearch only gives the info Carole already knows. 29 Jan 1896, Mary Ann and Harriet, Ilkeston.
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KarenM, I'm quite convinced that we have the right person with this certificate. Thinking about Harriett, perhaps she didn't know who the father was - part of me is hoping that James Hall is not the father. She did name one of the three children 'Hall" so maybe there is a message here ... or perhaps it's just wishful thinking on my part ...
Hasta, I'm not disappointed - I'm sure it's the correct certificate - I'm disappointed that there isn't more information provided. I am really happy to have my grandmother's correct birthday. I also happened to be born on the 5th (but not October).
If some kind soul can access the information for baptism, (my records show Jan. 29, 1896, Ilkeston) as well as Alice Hall (b. 1899, Basford) and John Fisher's (b. 1905, Basford) information, I will place another order at GRO.
Thanks!
Hi Carol following your story with great interest. Just querying Alice, in 1901 census was she recorded as Alice Fisher - I could be wrong maybe you could verify Fisher or Hall for Alice.
Regards :)
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Ballydw, thank you for your interest and your help. I went back into my notes and found that someone had provided me with: "Alice Hall, Mar 1899, Basford, 7b 220"; "John Fisher, Mar 1906, Basford 7b 236" and John Fisher, Dec 1905, N'ham 7b 410".
I am wondering if I should order all 3 ...
I will also send the information taken from today's certificate (Mary Ann's birth cert) to my 'cousin' at the Ilkeston Historical Society, and see what he has to say ...
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Hi Carol
Disappointing although I think it is what you expected, ie no name
This may help give you some information about the parish
http://www.connorsgenealogy.com/Derbyshire/parishes/IlkestonParish.htm
From 1874
The Births and Deaths Registration Act of 1874 (Act of 37 & 38 Victoria, Chapter 88) made registration compulsory. The onus for registration of a birth was passed to the parents, or the occupier of the house where a birth took place. The birth had to be registered within 42 days or a £2.00 fine was imposed. It still remained a common belief that baptism registered the birth, also if the parents ran out of time they would either lie about the date of birth or simply not register and hope not to get caught.
So neither 'parent' have to be present at that time in history for their names to go on the certificate
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Ballydw, thank you for your interest and your help. I went back into my notes and found that someone had provided me with: "Alice Hall, Mar 1899, Basford, 7b 220"; "John Fisher, Mar 1906, Basford 7b 236" and John Fisher, Dec 1905, N'ham 7b 410".
I am wondering if I should order all 3 ...
I will also send the information taken from today's certificate (Mary Ann's birth cert) to my 'cousin' at the Ilkeston Historical Society, and see what he has to say ...
I gave the info re these births as possibilities- no likely Alice Fisher. You can ask for the certificates if the mother is Harriet. If not, you don't get charged the full fee. That used to be the case anyway.
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She did name one of the three children 'Hall"
If Alice Hall whose birth was registered March Q 1899 is the daughter of Harriet Hall née Fisher, then James Hall's name is on the certificate, as it has to be if Harriet is married to him. It isn't a question of Harriet giving her the surname Hall.
There is no space for the child's surname on an E & W birth certificate (before 1969). This means that on the GRO birth index, the child's surname shown is that of the parents. So it will be either:
a) The surname of both the parents if they are married
or
b) The surname of the mother if she is not married
or
c) The index will show two entries, one for each surname if the parents are not married, and the father's name is on the certificate.
(If c) had been the case with Mary Ann's birth certificate, there would have been two entries for her on the GRO index with the same reference, once as Mary Ann Fisher and once as Mary Ann [father's surname] )
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Just to throw a potential spanner in the Alice hall/fisher works:
Name: Alice Fisher
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1897
Registration District: Basford
Inferred County: Nottinghamshire
Volume: 7b
Page: 276
Is this a possibility if Mr Hall had left the scenario?
Cocksie
Edit to add
Probably complete red herring - just checked through the dates, age 13 in 1911 and 2 in 1901 so birth around 1898/1899. So this one is born too early.
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Hi Cocksie,
I think that was why that Alice Fisher was discounted - it is all a bit difficult with the names and places of birth, isn't it ::)
It's a pity that no workhouse records have shown up.
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In 1901 census Alice is listed as a Fisher born Nottingham, Nottinghamshire - just did a quick check.
In 1911 she is Fisher born Basford, Nottinghamshire.
Cocksie
Adding
The Alice Hall birth everyone is looking at is in March qtr 1899
So, looking at the time line
Nov 1897 mr hall is witnessed being cruel to Mary Ann - hence the court case. No mother around, in fact, if the newspaper reports are remotely correct Harriet Hall (nee Fisher) and James Hall parted ways at the fair. James hooked up with a Florence Lea about this time
Dec 1897 Harriet Hall is back in Loughborough looking for her husband (and potentially her daughter)
Jan 1898 - the court case.
Mar qtr 1899 an Alice Hall has birth registered.
This would imply (unless my maths and knowledge of biology is incorrect, and given info posted by galium) that:
1. Either Harriet and James hooked up again post court case
OR
2. Alice is not the child of James, albeit Harriet is still using her married surname at this time
Harriet and child(ren) are known as Fisher in 1901 and 1911.
Potentially mr hall is the father of none of the three children. And no father may be listed on any of the birth registrations.
Are my wandering thoughts on target or not?
Cocksie
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Hi Cocksie,
I think that was why that Alice Fisher was discounted - it is all a bit difficult with the names and places of birth, isn't it ::)
It's a pity that no workhouse records have shown up.
Evening Heywood
Somewhere in these 2 or 3 threads of copious postings I recall Carole had requested info for an incorrect narrow timeframe at Basford. She was going to ask again with corrected possible dates .... But for the life of me I cannot find these postings nor find the outcome ....
I tried looking online for vaccination records which exist but it seems they are not online. We almost need a generous person to physically go into the archive/records office and turn the pages looking - for vaccination records and workhouse records. Plus a visual of the baptism register would be good as well.
Grrrr stuck about as far away as one can get in melbourne Australia!
Cocksie
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In 1901 census Alice is listed as a Fisher born Nottingham, Nottinghamshire - just did a quick check.
In 1911 she is Fisher born Basford, Nottinghamshire.
Basford is a suburb in northern Nottingham. Basford parish was absorbed into Nottingham in 1877
Adding
The Alice Hall birth everyone is looking at is in March qtr 1899
So, looking at the time line
Nov 1897 mr hall is witnessed being cruel to Mary Ann - hence the court case. No mother around, in fact, if the newspaper reports are remotely correct Harriet Hall (nee Fisher) and James Hall parted ways at the fair. James hooked up with a Florence Lea about this time
Dec 1897 Harriet Hall is back in Loughborough looking for her husband (and potentially her daughter)
Carole
Not sure if you know ( I am guessing you do, but just in case as it gives you some background) but the 'fair' will be the Nottingham Goose fair http://www.nottinghamgoosefair.co.uk/ and http://www.nfa.dept.shef.ac.uk/history/charter/goose.html or one of the many that are held just prior/post to the Goose fair, 'fairground families' from all over the country gather and there are street fairs in lots of places as they wait for the Goose Fair ( it is always just after my birthday so around 1st/2nd week Oct ), about 3rd week the Ilkeston Charter Fair is run as the fair ground people go off it different directions http://www.nfa.dept.shef.ac.uk/history/charter/ilkeston.html and http://www.nfa.dept.shef.ac.uk/history/galleries/gall02.html and by 2nd/3rd week in November it is in Loughborough http://www.inloughborough.com/news/000293/Loughborough%20Fair
So the story leads me to think he 'followed the fair' maybe even worked on the fair, was possibly from one of the fair ground families
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According to this http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/NOTTSGEN/2008-05/1210302509
there was an Alice Hall born in the workhouse.
No John Hall/Fisher though.
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Thanks for the information. I'm beginning to think that it might be best to reach out to living descendants for answers.
When I attempted to get Workhouse Records, I was told that there was no record of any of these people being in the Workhouses. Perhaps I should try again and this time, forward a copy of the Birth Certificate ...
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Cocksie,
Not sure if the postings you refer to were around the time Carol sent to the workhouse and received an email back. Then asked again and got another unhelpful emailed reply. From memory that was just over two thirds of the way through the first thread. ??? I think.
Carol, I really feel for you right now.
Susan
Edited in shame: I cannot find it either. I am now word blind. ???
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According to this http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/NOTTSGEN/2008-05/1210302509
there was an Alice Hall born in the workhouse.
No John Hall/Fisher though.
Do those records go to 1905 though?
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Do those records go to 1905 though?
Hhhmmm! I see what you mean. It seems to vary according to where in the alphabet the surname was - but none seem to go as far as 1905 - so perhaps that isn't our Alice.
Mary Ann is certainly there though.
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Do those records go to 1905 though?
Hhhmmm! I see what you mean. It seems to vary according to where in the alphabet the surname was - but none seem to go as far as 1905 - so perhaps that isn't our Alice.
Mary Ann is certainly there though.
No, I meant for John Fisher. Alice was born 1898ish.
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Carole
Have you tried contacting the person who posted the workhouse birth information
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/NOTTSGEN/2008-05/1210302509
There is an email address - albeit the info was posted in 2008.
The poster could well have more info than just the names of the children born and , therefore, we may or may not be able to discard the Alice Hall listed.
Just a thought
Cocksie
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I emailed her the day I posted the link, must have been 2 weeks ago, and have had no reply. I included a link to this thread. Also found another email address for her on another forum and emailed that one too
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Excellent! At least we are pursuing all avenues that we can think of.
Another thought..... In 1911 Alice Fisher is at "school". I wonder what school would be close by to the Bulwell workhouse (where the family appears to be in 1911) and if there are any records?
Cocksie
Adding
Looks like the workhouse ran a day school
-
http:/www.workhouses.org.uk has a lot of information on Basford Union Workhouse including 1881 census List of Inmates which includes a James Fisher b. Ilkeston Derbyshire :)
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Hi Cocksie,
I think that was why that Alice Fisher was discounted - it is all a bit difficult with the names and places of birth, isn't it ::)
It's a pity that no workhouse records have shown up.
Somewhere in these 2 or 3 threads of copious postings I recall Carole had requested info for an incorrect narrow timeframe at Basford. She was going to ask again with corrected possible dates .... But for the life of me I cannot find these postings nor find the outcome ....
Reply 78 on this thread has this:
Good morning to all, and thanks to each one of you for your suggestions - definitely worth following up on.
In my inbox this morning, I found the following reply from the Nottingham Archives people (I had mentioned to them that Harriet, daughter Alice and son John were all showing as residents of the Workhouse in the 1911 census):
"Reference: DB/EH/70/3/13-1160
Please Ask For: Search Room
Dear Ms Reid
Thank you for your email of 17 May 2013.
We can confirm that we hold the Nottingham Union Workhouse records. We have consulted the following records:
Ref: SO/PUO/2/6/9
Indexes to indoor relief lists, 1905 - c1910
Names not found
Ref: SO/PUO/2/1/44
Admission and discharge register, Aug 1910 - May 1911
Names not found.
Please note that there are earlier registers dating back to 1856 and later registers up to 1920 but there is a gap from May 1911 - May 1919 (Ref: SO/PUO/2/1/1-45)."
So ... that wasn't very helpful ... :(
Milly
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Thanks for the information. I'm beginning to think that it might be best to reach out to living descendants for answers.
When I attempted to get Workhouse Records, I was told that there was no record of any of these people being in the Workhouses. Perhaps I should try again and this time, forward a copy of the Birth Certificate ...
I think definitely try again. I have had a squiz at the records they hold. This time you have more information so worth another shot. Perhaps ask for reasonably narrow field of search (ie from birth of Mary Ann to just after 1901 census when it looks like they were there)
Admissions 1895-1902
Births 1895-1902
Vaccination records 1895-1902
Under surname Hall and Fisher, Christian names Harriet, Mary Ann, Alice
And, yes, send copy of birth reg plus maybe copy of 1901 census entry
Nothing to lose by trying again!
Cocksie
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Another possible source for specific Basford workhouse records relevant to the era we are looking at:
The University of Nottingham, King's Meadow Campus, Lenton Lane, Nottingham NG7 2NR. Registers of the workhouse infirmary including: Admissions and Discharge Registers (1895-1950); Registers of persons of unsound mind (1914-1947); Registers of sick, maternity and mental patients; Registers of births (1871-1947); Registers of deaths (1871-1948); Delivery ward register (1916-1942).
Carole, I still think the Baptism register for Mary Ann is worth chasing up, it will have witnesses and perhaps a clue. Have you contacted the Ilkeston history group?
http://www.ilkestonhistory.org.uk/history/familyhistory/fhintroduction.htm
I reckon that if you explain some lovely person there could well go out of their way to have a good look up of all the resources they have. You could email the links to this thread (and the previous one).
Worth a possible email?
Cocksie
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Thanks for the advice. Since receiving the birth certificate, I have re-written the Ilkeston Historical Society and then the Nottingham Archives people asking for copies of Workhouse and any other records that may exist.
I am also wondering whether there might be records of employment in existence. If Harriett Fisher was working as a 'domestic servant of Ilkeston" as shown on the birth certificate, would records exist of where she might be employed, or by whom?
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For some reason I did not get notification of replies to this thread, so have just been trying to catch up.
Carol, Great news that you have the correct Mary Ann birth certifcate. Not such good news about the death certifcate. Does anyone recall if there are any other likely death certifcates for Harriet Fisher or Hall (or might she have remarried? ::)) I am not surprised there is no father named on Mary Ann's b/c - this is what we all expected. We have to consider the possibility that Harriett may not even have known who the father was.
Still awaiting a volunteer to look up workhouse records? I feel like jumping on a plane and doing it myself.
I think Cocksie is on the ball with what we still need to chase up.
Excellent! At least we are pursuing all avenues that we can think of.
Another thought..... In 1911 Alice Fisher is at "school". I wonder what school would be close by to the Bulwell workhouse (where the family appears to be in 1911) and if there are any records?
Cocksie
Adding
Looks like the workhouse ran a day school
I think it's the Bagthorpe Workhouse in 1911.
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Mary Ann was born in the workhouse in 1895. So was Harriett just there to give birth or had she been an inmate for some time prior? A search of any workhouse admissions needs to cover this earlier time frame.
Though it does appear that poor Harriett was there for at least 16 years, I think a lot of people were regularly in and out of the workhouse. She must have been out for a time in 1896/7 when the events with Hall occurred. I wonder if she would have been free to come and go as she pleased?
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Hi Ruskie - I was wondering the same thing as to whether Harriett could work outside of the Workhouse - could she have resided there, and left her children in the care of the Workhouse on a daily basis while she worked outside of the Workhouse as a "domestic servant of Ilkeston", as per the birth cert.?
Also, are the particulars for Mary Ann Fisher's baptism available - the date is Jan. 29, 1896, Ilkeston - I don't have other reference information needed to order the certificate.
Thanks everyone!
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Hi Carol
It would be worth contacting the Derbyshire Records Office
http://www.derbyshire.gov.uk/leisure/record_office/default.asp
They may well be prepared to look at the record of Mary Ann's baptism for you and tell you if any other details are included. Otherwise they do offer a copying service for records where date is known.
Jan ;)
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Thank you Jan, I have sent a request for information to the Derbyshire Records Office. Fingers crossed that something surfaces.
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I am holding my breath now for the key cert to arrive with you Carol...the marriage of James Hall to Heather Fisher. I am hopeful this will be more decisive overall. Where is it???
Monica
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Hi all
I relooked at both the 1901 and 1911 both institutions are listed as being in Highbury Road ..... Sounds like one and the same place .....or am I mad?
According to this Link
http://www.workhouses.org.uk/Basford/#Links
Nottingham archives hold some Basford workhouse records and the University holds others - the university appears to hold more Basford documents relevant to this search I think.
The link above also has a map/plan of the Basford Workhouse on Highbury Road.
No doubt you have already seen this and I am a little slow.
It does appear to me (as I gain an understanding of how workhouses operated - you learn something new everyday!) that there was "indoor relief" (ie living there), "outdoor relief", "casual vagrant relief" etc. so I think there was a bit of coming and going. This is a great list of documents that the archives hold regarding all the notts workhouses including Basford (also how limited their Basford holdings are):
http://www.nottinghamshire.gov.uk/EasysiteWeb/getresource.axd?AssetID=153114&type=full&servicetype=Attachment
And I do think that one could have one's child born at the workhouse and the child be baptised elsewhere (ie back at the place where one might still have extended family to visit - uncles, aunts)
Cocksie
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Mary Ann was born in the workhouse in 1895. So was Harriett just there to give birth or had she been an inmate for some time prior? A search of any workhouse admissions needs to cover this earlier time frame.
Though it does appear that poor Harriett was there for at least 16 years, I think a lot of people were regularly in and out of the workhouse. She must have been out for a time in 1896/7 when the events with Hall occurred. I wonder if she would have been free to come and go as she pleased?
[/quote
From my understanding of workhouses, inmates where allowed to go out to work and return, this helped to pay towards the cost of their upkeep. I am talking about a different time frame from this post (1940 and beyond) So it's possible that this could be the same for when Harriet was in & out.
My Mum has often talked about her days of nursing at the "Fishpool" workhouse in Bolton, she is now 94, and though her memory is not so good now I do remember the storys she told.
Trish.
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Still awaiting a volunteer to look up workhouse records? I feel like jumping on a plane and doing it myself.
I hear you and am feeling the same.
Cocksie
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I can't remember the reason for assuming there were two workhouses. I check later when I am on my 'proper' computer.
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Ruskie and all,
1901
"Harritt" Fisher 28 born Ilkeston (Charwoman) and Alice Fisher 2 born Nottingham were in BASFORD UNION WORKHOUSE, HIGHBURY ROAD, BASFORD, NOTTINGHAM (Registration Sub District Bulwell
RG13; Piece: 3191; Folio: 118; Page: 6.
1911 information removed - assistance is limited to what may be found in the FREE indexes.
Susan
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Thank you - must be mad (and looked at same census twice)
All cleared up now
Cocksie
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Stumbled across another potential death
Harriet Fisher
Birth Date: abt 1874
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1939
Age at Death: 65
Registration District: Nottingham
Inferred County: Nottinghamshire
Volume: 7b
Page: 315
Cocksie, if you are mad then I am insane! (madder) :)
Susan
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Susan, thanks for clarifying the Workhouse dates/locations.
I will order the death cert for Harriett with the information provided - thanks!
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Fingers and everything else crossed
Roll on the arrival of the marriage cert.
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Carole, I may be too late with this little bit of info - but checking the film number on Mary Anne's Familysearch baptism record (1752154) shows that she was baptised at The Parish Church of St Mary's, Ilkeston.
https://familysearch.org/search/catalog/560695
Also, I found another record for the Fisher/Hall marriage which says that that also took place at St Mary's.
That info might be useful when looking for info from Derbyshire Archives. If not too expensive perhaps worth requesting the Church record of the marriage as well ?
Not sure how much they charge but might be cheaper if you can give them exact place and date.
Also your chap at Ilkeston historical society would have access, as they have all of St Mary's records for sale (but only transcriptions - in little books) on their site, also the Derbyshire Family History Society have the transcriptions for sale on their site as well.
http://www.dfhs.org.uk/
Derbyshire Archives seem able to provide actual images which is way preferable to a transcription any day.
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Susan, Thanks very much for posting the details of the 1901 census. :)
[An/other essential lookup/s -: baptism of Mary Ann and original marriage record for Harriett and Hall. :)]
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Very happy to help out.
Susan
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Hasta - many thanks! I have just placed an order with Derbyshire Archives for birth/marriage/death information for Harriett, daughter Alice and son John. Fingers crossed.
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Best of luck Carol. I am hoping for a breakthrough (or two). :)
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Carol, have been engrossed with your search and I sincerely hope you will have a positive outcome.
I searched for John Fisher Harrietts son.b. 1905 and came up with the following (hope I am not adding "confusion")
There is a marriage reg for a John Fisher b. 1905 marriage in Basford to a Barber Oct qrtr 1927. Vol 7b p 514
Marriage for John Fisher b. 1905 to Hudson Basford Vol 7b p 377.
There are 2 children born to the Fisher/Barber union. Jean ,June 1933 Basford. Dennis Dec 1928 Basford. Hope all your Cert purchases will prove fruitful. Kind regards Frances :)
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Frances, thank you for the look-up. I have a "Barber" in my DNA matches so I am going to send him a note right now! He is in the US, but it's worth a shot - he might have more information. I'll keep you posted! :)
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Fingers crossed for all your search results. Good luck :)
Trish
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Good morning - I woke up to find a reply from the Nottingham Archives people, who have referred me to Nottingham University ... so I have sent a request to them for Workhouse Records, and whatever else they might have available, for Harriett and her 3 children. Hopefully it won't take too long to get a response.
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I hope for a positive outcome Carol. (You are getting a bit of a run-around aren't you?) Let's hope Nottingham Uni can help. :)
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Nottingham university holds the following BASFORD relevant records for the search:
Admissions and Discharge Registers (1895-1950)
Registers of persons of unsound mind (1914-1947);
Registers of sick, maternity and mental patients;
Registers of births (1871-1947);
Registers of deaths (1871-1948);
Delivery ward register (1916-1942)
Cocksie
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Well found Cocksie
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I wonder if the mailman had anything today?
Karen
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thanks Cocksie - N'ham U replied - they want 10.50 pounds for each 1/2 hour spent searching ... not sure how I feel about this - my poor little Canadian dollars are flying out the window and I have no way of knowing how much time will be spent, and what will be found ... :(
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Karen, "no" - nothing in today's mail.
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Um Carol. It might just be me, but I DO wonder how thorough third parties might be with any searches (paid or unpaid). And since Harriett appears to have been in (and out?) of the workhouse for so many years, there is an awful lot of searching over many years to be done - in fact all of the categories Cocksie has listed apart from the last one ....
Does anyone know if these records available for the general public to search? Or, are they available anywhere else?
... £10.50 per half hour .... :(
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Hasta - many thanks! I have just placed an order with Derbyshire Archives for birth/marriage/death information for Harriett, daughter Alice and son John. Fingers crossed.
Someone correct me here if I'm wrong as my experience of Engllish records is limited but I thought with Alice and John both being registered in Basford, that is Nottingham not Derbyshire ??
The census info also has Harriet saying she is born Ilkeston, Derbyshire but the 2 children are born 'Basford. Nottinghamshire" ?
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Hasta - many thanks! I have just placed an order with Derbyshire Archives for birth/marriage/death information for Harriett, daughter Alice and son John. Fingers crossed.
Someone correct me here if I'm wrong as my experience of Engllish records is limited but I thought with Alice and John both being registered in Basford, that is Nottingham not Derbyshire ??
The census info also has Harriet saying she is born Ilkeston, Derbyshire but the 2 children are born 'Basford. Nottinghamshire" ?
The Basford Registration District covers a far greater area than the town/village of Basford itself, it not only includes dozens of locations in Nottinghamshire but also several in Derbyshire including Ilkeston.
http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/genuki/reg/districts/basford.html (http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/genuki/reg/districts/basford.html)
Derbyshire Archives do have Ilkeston Parish Registers but if the baptisms were not there then the difficulty is locating where they took place.
Andy
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I wonder if the Society of Genealogists in London hold any material. Will check this out
Susan
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Carole
I thought you were going to contact Darbyshire Archives to track down:
Information that might be on Mary Ann's Baptism at Ilkeston, ie sponsors/witnesses - which might provide a clue (and if we were really super lucky the father's name might be on it). The igi info online doesn't give these extra bits. We have the date of the baptism at Ilkeston so it wouldn't be an enormous lookup or request.
Alternatively we could see if someone could look up the microfiche at an LDS centre.
The birth registration that you got didn't give us any clues to chase up.
We don't know where Mary Ann's siblings were (or if) they were baptised so it would be a big fishing exercise to ask Derbyshire archives to look up.
Regarding Nottingham university .... It is a lot of money! I am wondering if it is worth asking them the following questions:
Registers of birth - what information is on a Basford workhouse birth registration? It may be very sparse and not worth proceeding.
(Note: if proceeding, the field of search would be reasonably narrow - Alice 1898/1899 and John 1905/1906)
Registers of admissions & discharge - what info would be on this? How long would it take to look up a 6 year time period?
(Note: if proceeding, I think we would have to narrow the field down to minimise $$ to say, 1895 - 1901 (when we found Harriet & Alice at Basford Workhouse) in the census)
And leave the other registers for the moment - to be investigated potentially in the future.
And finally - where is that marriage certificate? I could swim to old blighty and back in the time it takes to look up, copy and post this document!
Cocksie
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Cocksie,
I think your idea about quizzing Nottingham University about what information the records might typically contain within the timeframes we are looking at (as they may vary over time), and how long a search might take, is an excellent one. As is requesting one or two lookups initially and considering others at a later date. :)
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Cocksie, I did contact Derbyshire Archives (and Ilkeston Historical Society) but haven't received a reply yet from either of them.
My brother's DNA results just came back ... 2 of his main surname matches are (get this) Dickens and Potter. Honestly, you couldn't write this stuff - it reads like a Dickens story!
I will respond to N'ham Uni with more questions before deciding what to do and how far to go with them. Thanks for all the good advice and guidance!
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;D Carol
Talk about The Pickwick Papers!
Stretch out, take a breather, bless you.
Susan
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Hi Rootschatters - so happy to be back here with news! Guess what the cat dragged in today?
Certified Copy of an Entry of Marriage
March 8th, 1896
James Hall, 20, Bachelor, (Profession) Miner, (Residence) Ilkeston, (Father) William Hall, Brass Finisher
Harriet Fisher, 22, Spinster, "no Profession" of Ilkeston (Father) George Fisher, Miner
Married in the Parish Church according to the Rite and Ceremonies of the Established Church, after "banus"(?), by me, E. Muirhead Evans, Vicar
This Marriage was solemnized between us, James Hall and Harriet Fisher, in the presence of us,
George Brooks and Frances Ann Lettis
So ... any thoughts?
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Well Carol at least you now have confirmation that Harriett was married to him but maybe he wasnt Mary Anns father "hopefully". Regards :) Think the "banus" is probably BANNS :)
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Carol there is a site if you are interested as I think it was mentioned a lot earlier that James Hall was employed at the stanton iron works www.stantonironworks.co.uk
I had a look on the census for William Hall, (father of James.) born Smalley Derbyshire 1838
1861 William Hall Miner 22, Margaret Hall 20, George Hall 1 month living with Margarets parents George Turner & Mary Turner in Ripley Derbyshire.
1871 William Hall, Margaret Hall , George 10, Alfred 5, John 3, Mary 3 (twins I presume) Frances M 1yr Living in Handsworth Yorkshire.
1881 William is a widower, John 13, Mary 13, Frances M 11, William 8, Harry 6, JAMES 4, Harriett 2, George 20 Annie 19, Alfred, Living in Killamarsh, Derbyshire. Keep well & I hope you will have news soon from your archive searches. Regards Frances :)
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Frances, thank you for looking-up the Hall family. It's interesting ... William must have sure had his hands full (or not) with being alone to raise all of those young children - I wonder how the rest of them turned out.
Fingers crossed that I hear something from Archives soon - the website did state that the office was only open a couple of days per week - I'll wait a couple more days and then send another email.
Again, I appreciate having this "Hall" information - thank you.
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The marriage certifcate does not really give us much more than we already know, however it IS confirmation of the marriage and confirmation of the father's names. Can I ask if either of them signed their names on the certificate?
Of course we do not know nor will probably ever know if James Hall is the father of Mary Ann. As
the marriage took place so soon after the birth of mary Ann it does seem likely that James is the father (why would he marry someone who has recently given birth to someone else"s child - no, don't answer that - I know it happens ;)). And as mentioned previously, Harriett herself may not be sure who Mary Ann's father was. :-\
We DO know that Harriett is Mary Ann's mother, so you have half of her tree to follow up.
The next step? With luck there will be further information found via some of your lines of enquiry, so we will have to see where they lead.
Maybe attempting to trace Harriett's other children to see if there are any descendants?
Death of James Hall? Harriett?
:)
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Hi Ruskie, thanks for your opinion. I did receive a death cert for Harriet which wasn't the right Harriet Fisher, and I then ordered a second one, which I am waiting for. I also ordered birth, marriage, death certificates from Derbyshire Historical Society for Harriet, Alice and John. I don't think I can do more at this point, except wait patiently ...
It appears as though the marriage certificate was completed by one person, as all of the entries appear to be in the same hand, except for the signature of "E. Muirhead Evans, Vicar" which is in a darker, heavier ink.
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Carol there is a site if you are interested as I think it was mentioned a lot earlier that James Hall was employed at the stanton iron works www.stantonironworks.co.uk
I had a look on the census for William Hall, (father of James.) born Smalley Derbyshire 1838
1861 William Hall Miner 22, Margaret Hall 20, George Hall 1 month living with Margarets parents George Turner & Mary Turner in Ripley Derbyshire.
1871 William Hall, Margaret Hall , George 10, Alfred 5, John 3, Mary 3 (twins I presume) Frances M 1yr Living in Handsworth Yorkshire.
1881 William is a widower, John 13, Mary 13, Frances M 11, William 8, Harry 6, JAMES 4, Harriett 2, George 20 Annie 19, Alfred, Living in Killamarsh, Derbyshire. Keep well & I hope you will have news soon from your archive searches. Regards Frances :)
The 1901 census has this family still living in Killamarsh with JAMES 24, single, a miner, coal hewer still living at home. I suppose it is possible that after all the problems James went home and resumed his previous occupation (the 1891 census also has James at home in Killamarsh) but you would need to investigate further.
Carol, I think you need to go back to the newspaper articles and make a careful note of what exactly they say about James and Mary Ann. Certainly the Hall/Fisher marriage fits and the Mary Ann Fisher birth fits but you do need to be cautious that other information that starts as a possibility doesn't become a probability and then a fact without supporting evidence.
Andy
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Andy, thanks. I have been wondering about this Hall family since reading the original post. Killamarsh appears to be a good distance from Ilkeston, which is where the men in the Hall family worked. Also, the fact that there were twins in this family also struck me as a bit odd, as there is no history, whatsoever, of any twins being born in the family. I'll file this information and continue on ...
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While we were/are waiting response from Nottingham Uni, Derbyshire archives, Ilkeston HS ....
Was doing a bit of a trawl around cyberspace and found these transcriptions of St Mary's Marriages at Ilkeston 1837-1883
http://www.oldilkeston.co.uk/st-marys-marriages-1852-1861/
What is interesting:
1. You have info on the Fisher family through censuses 1841-1891. So you will be able to find the spouses of George Fisher's siblings.
2. Very few Halls getting married at this church .... 1 or 2 only. Makes one think that the Hall family may not been local, possibly James came into the area for work?
Cocksie
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What a great find Cocksie lots of Fisher/family related info. Well done :)
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Time in cyberspace well spent there Cocksie. Well done indeed.
Susan
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Thank you Cocksie - all kinds of good stuff on that link! In addition to all of the 'Fisher' information, there is also 'Orme' information and 'Calladine' - as well as 'Scattergood' (Harriet's sister's married name) - all "Fisher" related ...
I did only see 2 'Hall' entries on that list, so your theory makes sense - hmm, Hall's of Killamarsh?
Very interesting! Thanks.
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What a great find Cocksie lots of Fisher/family related info. Well done :)
Ditto! ;D
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Long day at work - my current odd way of unwinding is to randomly search for Halls and Fishers in and around Ilkeston!
Was thinking about Alice Hall/ Fisher last night and have a query:
1901 census (taken 31 march) - she is listed age 2 (ie birth 1 April 1898 - 31 March 1899?)
1911 census (taken 2 April) listed as 13 -birth 3 April 1897-2 April 1898
Is any of my maths above correct? If so I have a conundrum.....
It has taken me a little while to work out how chatterers linked Alice hall to Harriet ....
Being the newspaper article in jan 1898 where it talks about the mother (of Mary Ann) having another child (in dec 1897 when she is looking for her husband in Loughborough).
So everyone was looking for a "hall" child (given James and Harriet married) registered in the area in last three quarters of 1897 and first quarter of 1898? ??? ??? ???
...... I'm not sure we have short listed the Alice birth reg possibilities in a cohesive list - have we?
Am about to trawl back through all the postings on this thread and the others threads
Cocksie
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Cocksie, thank you for the time you spend unwinding! If the fair took place 13/14 November, 1897, where Harriet and another "youngster" went away, if that child was Alice, then she would have been just a baby - and would they have referred to her as a "youngster"?
This 'youngster' could have been anyone ... Harriet's sister, Mary Ann, had a daughter "Harriet" (Scattergood) b. 1893 in Ilkeston - perhaps Harriet was staying with her sister and the child referred to as the 'youngster' in the Court (and newspaper) reports is actually Harriet's niece - anything is possible I guess ...
Hopefully these look-ups that I have ordered will surface sometime soon, Cocksie. Thank you again for your help.
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I think my point (and conundrum) was/is
1. There aren't actually very many Alice Hall/Fisher birth regs in the timeframe April 1897-March 1899
2. I'm not that experienced with research and the 1901 and 1911 census info on this girl gives us quite different info. So, experienced rootschatterers which one is more likely to be closer to the truth?
3. 1901 info would indicate that Alice was not the "youngster" in nov/dec 1897. 1911 info indicates she might be
4. While the "youngster" referred to could be anyone (as you suggest), I wonder if there is any other Hall child born of Harriet & James between July 1896 (9 months after birth of Mary Ann) and nov/dec 1897 AND dies before 1901 OR perhaps is living with the Scattergood family (with aunt Mary Ann) in 1901?
Cocksie
Ps I think I have found Mary Ann Fisher (sister of Harriet) in 1881 census. I can't remember if another rchatterer has already posted this (and/or it was discarded) but I cannot currently find another suitable suspect in 1881
Name: Mary Fisher, age 20 (b. abt 1861). Born Ilkeston, Derbyshire. Servant to the Abel family.
Living - 18 Pelican St, Civil Parish Radford, Nottinghamshire
Registration District: Nottingham
Sub-registration District: Radford
Folio: 35
Page Number: 63
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Question: have you found mother Harriet Fisher's (nee Orme) death between 1881 (last census sighting) and 1891 (George a widower)
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Thanks once more Cocksie - I didn't have that information on Mary Ann, sister of Harriet. I do have the 1891 census information which shows her living at 36 Lower Granby St., Ilkeston with John Scattergood, b. 1864 a coalminer (hewer) and Harriet Scattergood, b. 1893, Ilkeston.
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Answer: ;)
I have a note that shows:
Death - Dec. 1890 Fisher, Harriet, 58, Basford 7b 90
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Bingo - that's the one I was eyeing off (only 1 I can find that looks possible)
Can't currently find George in 1901 census but can't find suitable death until 1908
Name: FISHER, GeorgeRegistration district: Basford, County: Nottinghamshire
Year of registration: 1908 Qtr Jul-Aug-Sep
Age at death:72
Volume no: 7B Page no: 112
??
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Reply (received this morning) from Derbyshire Family Hist. Society:
"Your research request and payment was received last week, thank you. It would appear that you are looking for birth, marriage and death details for Harriett, Alice and John Fisher. We are assuming that you have found them on the census and also a possible marriage to James Hall. The marriage we have found for Harriett Fisher to a James Hall is in 1896. If this were correct then the children would have the surname of Hall.
We are not sure what information you have already but think that you have found them in 1911, all in the workhouse. Harriett is single born Ilkeston and she has two illegitimate children, Alice and John. In 1901 Harriet, single, is with Alice again in the workhouse. 1891 she is with her widowed father, George and in 1881 she is with parents, George and Harriett.
There is no baptism record for Harriet in Ilkeston. There are two marriages for a Harriett Fisher after 1911 but the only way to know if either are her is to buy certificates. One is in 1916 Ilkeston St Mary to a Joseph Stenson and the other in 1924 Cotmanhay to a Thomas Gerrard.
I take it that either Alice or John are your direct ancestor. Do you have any other information on them as there are a great number of marriages for these names? Without having an idea of date and place it will be nearly impossible to do. Deaths will also be difficult to find as Fisher is a fairly common name and again could be anywhere in the country and both Harriett and Alice could have married.
Birth certificates will be available for each of them at a cost of £10 each. Harriett Fisher registered Sept qtr 1873 Basford, Alice Fisher, there are two registered Sept qtr 1897 Basford and John Fisher, there are three possibilities, one in Dec qtr 1905 Nottingham and two in Basford Mar qtr 1906. When ordering the ones for John and Alice, you need to state that you would like the mother to be Harriet with no father given and you should not end up with certificates you do not want. We could order the certificates for you but the £27 would not cover the cost of three certificates and research. The search fee of £3 per item, if on our database, would only give a reference leading directly to the certificate. If you would like to send a further £13 we could do the ordering for you."
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:-\
So, Carol, where to go from here? :-\
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It looks like your reply didn't really tell you anything that hadn't been found her on RC.
Really, if you want to come forward in time, you should be looking for marriages of Alice & John. It could be expensive. :-\
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snowyw, you have echoed what I've been thinking ... time to focus on descendants ...
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Carol refer to my post no 201 might be worth pursuing the marriage john fisher b 1905 to Barber!!! :)
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ballydw, thanks, I did take note of your earlier post. If I am to get this right, I need to know that the "Alice" and "John" Fisher that are being pursued are the right people ... so I will order their certificates tonight, stipulating the mother as "Harriet", no father, etc. Hopefully the certificates will help confirm their identities so that I can proceed feeling certain that I have the right people.
Out of curiousity, and thinking of Harriet, how did one go from being 'married' to being 'single' in that era? Could one just 'walk away' from a marriage, change their status and start over?
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Carol, I think they could call themselves whatever they wished (married, single, widow etc) - no proof of age or identity or other documentation would have been required. We also don't know Harriett's state of mind or if, or how, any of her actions related to her clasification in the 1911 census, or even it's accuracy.
I hope for more luck for you. :-\
Has anyone (presumably local) come forward to volunteer to do lookups of police records or workhouse records?
PS. I am not sure how strict the GRO are with spellings (someone else may know), if you are going to order b/cs for Alice and John and want to specify mother as Harriett, might it be wise to spell her name Har(r)iet(t). Surely they would issue no matter how the name is spelled though? :-\ I am probably just being paranoid but I think you used to have to spell the name exactly as it appeared in the index eg, if the name was indexed as Byrd but you knew it should be Bird and ordered it with the spelling as Bird, I thought that they would not issue it . :)
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Ruskie that is correct, the GRO will only issue the way it is indexed, eg if it is indexed as Smith & you know it is Smyth and order Smyth the won't send it.
Trish
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Ruskie that is correct, the GRO will only issue the way it is indexed, eg if it is indexed as Smith & you know it is Smyth and order Smyth the won't send it.
Trish
That's spooky Trish, when I wrote my message, I gave the example of Smith/Smyth and changed it to Bird/Byrd at the last minute. ;D
So would that policy about spelling needing to be exactly how it appears on the GRO index also apply if Carol specifies that the mother must be Harriett, but her name is spelled Harriet?
I just wondered as the mother's name isn't actually on the index, (just on the certificate) .... surely common sense would dictate that Harriet/Harriett/Hariett etc would just be variations of the same name and they would go ahead and issue the certificate?
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I think the index only has surnames- which need to be correct. Putting the mother's (or father's) christian names is only a checking device, so one would hope that they would not be so picky!
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Am still mulling over how you would go "forward" (as opposed to going backwards and sideways with the Fisher, Orme, Caladine families) ...
So to put in your notebook for going backwards:
Ilkeston marriage registers (there are two) -
http://ukga.org/Registers/derbyshire.html
Interesting how few Fishers were marrying at Ilkestom, ie one or two per generation......
And I was looking at the fisher info you got from IFHS (going backwards) .... Careful with your Thomas (george's father) being illegitimate son of an Esther Fisher. I think Esther's son died 12 days after birth. There is a clue for Thomas' origins in his later census information - where he lists his place of birth (think it was in 1871 census) as Cossall, Nottinghamshire. There is certainly a likely Thomas born in the right timeframe at Cossall to a Joseph and Martha Fisher (nee, wait for it - Caladine). Joseph and Martha married at Ilkeston in 1788, had one child there and them appear to have gone to Cossall. Anyway - food for thought and absolutely no help in the search forwards.
Cocksie
Edit to add. Cossall is about a mile away from Ilkeston, across the river - according to mr geggle maps
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Another potentially interesting website for going backwards. I haven't explored it fully
http://eastmidlandsgenealogy.com/site-coverage/4533086536
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Good morning and thanks to all for your thoughts and suggestions. Prior to reading your posts, I did order the certificates following the instructions received from the DHS - fingers crossed that this works. I ordered Harriet's birth cert in addition to Alice's and John's.
Cocksie, thanks for the Fisher info and Ilkeston link! So if Joseph Fisher married a Caladine and Joseph's son, Thomas, also married a Caladine, then there is a good possibility that this couple were related, possibly first cousins? If so, that might explain some of the 'issues'? Thomas and Mary named a son 'Joseph' as well as a daughter 'Martha' so this does fit together. As far as Fisher marriages go, Thomas and Mary only had the one daughter (Martha) and six (known) sons - did marriages normally take place at the bride's parish?
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Your question "did marriages normally take place in the bride's parish"
Mmm. I only have my limited family research experience to draw on. My Cornish ancestors seemed to generally get married at the bride's parish. My yorkshire ancestors vary - partly as a result of their Quakerism (is that a real word?) or their marrying outside Quakerism. Seems to me that generally the further back one goes in time, and assuming bride and groom are from different parishes (albeit within walking distance due to my less than wealthy Uk ancestors (ie dirt poor, poverty struck) then I have found a pattern where the marriage takes place at bride's parish .....
Long winded, cautious response based on limited knowledge and own experience
:-\
Cocksie
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Thanks Cocksie - that was my sense as well, that historically weddings were held at the Bride's parish. Until fairly recently, this was the tradition here in Canada as well.
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Yes, the bride's parish is usually the first port of call when looking for a marriage, but it's not set in stone. :)
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The general rule of thumb is yes they married in the brides parish............... however the brides parish could be where she was working at the time and /or where her family had moved to, not necessarily where she was born. You will often see OTP ( of this parish) on the registers but that only means they lived in that parish for the weeks while the banns were read ( and they didn't always live in the parish, just said they did/had an address they could give)
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Just popping in to say I am keeping up with the thread and well done to you all. Wish I could do more.
Susan
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Switching back to moving forward with Alice and John. To me it feels like a needle in a haystack. We don't really know if they were registered at birth as Hall or Fisher (or, actually, any other surname .... We know Harriet was married to a Hall but called herself Fisher in the censuses ... Who knows if she got married in between censuses but continued to call herself Fisher .... If you get my drift).
However, lets assume for the moment that John was a Fisher. How to trace him?
1. Multiple guesses and $ buying GRO certs for the possibilities.
2. Assuming Harriet did not die and John did not become an orphan and possibly shipped to another country
3. Assuming he did not die for a couple of decades
4. Assuming he stayed in UK as an adult
5. He was too young for WW1
6. Would English WW2 military records be worth looking into? He would have been about 34-40 in the era. In Oz the records are online with NExt of Kin info, birth date and place, sometimes parents (pending age). Some of the full records are closed and one has to pay to "open" but the summary info online is often enough to establish who they are and their relationships. I know Kew Archives holds earlier military info (early 1800s) as i have delved into that era. But I have no idea what is available online in the UK for WW2 military - does anyone else know?
If this resource was available online it would be, at least, something to trawl through and check. I am quite good at trawling through lists and indexes and texts - find it strangely therapeutic.
Or have I just suggested looking for a smaller needle in a larger haystack?
Cocksie
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One other thought:
Am pretending I am Harriet living at a workhouse - if I was to baptise my children where would I go? (As opposed to registering their births). The 1911 census indicates both children were born at Basford. Assuming I am living at Basford workhouse when I gave birth ..... The Basford workhouse had a chapel .... Possibly not a costly exercise to baptise my children at the workhouse chapel?
I am currently assuming the Basford workhouse chapel would be CoE ....
I'll look into this further after work this evening.
Cocksie
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John Fisher ... I am reminded of an earlier post showing a Basford marriage between a John Fisher and a "Barber", Oct qtr 1927 Vol 7b p 514. Children of this marriage: Jean, June 1933 Basford and Dennis, Dec. 1928 Basford. Do these people surface anywhere that we could take a closer look for a possible connection?
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Thanks Cocksie, keep in mind that it may not have occurred to Harriet to baptize these children ... Would it make any sense to look for descendants of the "Scattergood" family (Harriet's sister, Mary Ann's, daughter - Harriet, born 1893) of Ilkeston who might be able to fill in some of the blanks? That name might be a bit easier to deal with ...
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Cocksie -:
Virtually no WW2 military records available online I'm afraid http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/looking-for-subject/secondworldwar.htm
Carol -:
Your idea of searching for Scattergood rather than Fisher or Hall is a good one I think. However if you find descendants they may not have information from so long ago. but no harm in trying. :)
The Fisher/Barber marriage - I think it is unreasonable for you to collect every slightly likely birth, marriage or death certificate, however if this John gave no father's name, so is presumably illegitimate, this adds a bit of weight to him being the correct John Fisher. However, we need to remember that many lies about parentage were told on marriage certificates, and it still comes back to the possibility that even Harriett herself may not have been certain who the fathers of her children were. :-\ And, John Fisher is a very common name.
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Hi Ruskie - thanks for your continued support. After I ordered the last 3 certificates, I decided that I was going to draw the line there - I'm comfortable with the expense in this instance as I'm fairly certain that these people will prove to be my family. Because I'm searching for information on my grandmother, I forget that for other people, this information may not be relevant and stories may not have survived (if ever known). In lots of ways, now that I know (somewhat) what the 'family' situation was in England, while my grandmother's early life was terrible, her life here in Canada was far, far better then what she would have lived, had she stayed in England. She was studying to be a nurse when she was in her late teens ... quite remarkable considering the era, and her early life experience.
Once I have the new certificates (GRO have given themselves until July 3 to send them out) it will be easier to search for John and Alice, as hopefully full birth dates will be recorded. Poor Harriet ...
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I've been tracking Scattergood. Mary Ann and John HENRY Scattergood only had one child, Harriet, who was still living with them in 1911 census, age 18 as a hosiery machinist. Quite clearly she is an only child.
And not to be confused with a Harriet Scattergood born 1891 to a father John William Scattergood. Both families living in Ilkeston.
John Henry Scattergood dies 1 july 1937, 19 East Street Ilkeston, probate to his wife Mary Ann (obviously still alive in 1937).
That's as far as I have got
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There is a Marriage of a Harriett Scattergood April qtr 1916 Reg Dist Basford Notts Vol 7b P 421
Spouse Alexander Bostock. :)
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Hi all. I have just received the death certificate for a 'Harriet Fisher', who died 28 Feb. 1939, age 65, wife of Albert Fisher, 68 Goodhead St., Meadows, Nottingham.
:(
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:'(
That is a shame ..... :(
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:(
Susan
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Carol I know how you must feel over this "set back" & we have all had many of these. But keep going and the right one will pop up.
I have a whole stack of ones ordered that were incorrect. Keep going. I know the cost is a big factor but remember how far you have come in your search.
Good luck & all the very best.
Trish
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Hi Carol
I have followed your amazing story from day one and although I haven't posted anything, I left that to those more experienced, I just wanted to give you some encouragement and to say that when you are feeling a bit fed up, just think how much you have learned about your beautiful grandmother and I'm sure that in time you will learn so much more
Chris
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Hi Carol, so disappointed for you with the latest record you recieved. Wonder did Harriett Fisher ever marry again!! Maybe a search for a marriage may be an idea. I know you would like to find descendants of Mary Ann your grandmother but most importantly I feel you have found her roots and as you mentioned she had a great life that she may not have had if she remained in UK - so maybe a "blessing in disguise". You could spend forever and lots of money on Certs that may prove irrelevant as Fisher name seems common in the area. Someday you may get the breakthrough as I did recently when searching for a great uncle for 12 years. Best wishes to you & kind regards Frances. PS. Harrietts sister was as you know also Mary Ann but there was a big difference in their ages!! :) :)
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Hi carol
Don't let it frustrate you too much. What you and the rchatterers have managed to piece together in the past few weeks has been amazing ..... Little pieces of mortar from the brick wall have been chipped out. Whenever I hit a glitch I move sideways or backwards .... Give it some time and then come back to it. Another thing I do, when frustrated, is do a complete review of all data collated - sometimes I find a clue I overlooked at the time due to excitement!
Cocksie
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Thanks to all for your continued support. I did feel a bit 'deflated' with the last certificate not being 'mine', but it's a minor setback. I'm most grateful for what I have learned, and I'm not giving up just yet. I found some interesting "Scattergood" family members on another website but so far, haven't received any replies to my introductions. *sigh*
The digging continues ... and the waiting for certificates also continues ... ;)
Thanks again to all!
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Hi Carol. I have a great grandfather who was adopted. Every 3 or 4 months I review the information I have and I look again. I have found more information on him except who his birth parents were. Keep chipping away. With technology and information continually coming online, and Roots Chat members, eventually you will find the keystone you need. Tiki :)
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Hi Carol,
I've been following your thread with great interest.
All I can say is never give up hope.
I started searching for my mother's two missing great uncles about 11 years ago. Family legend had it that both men left Scotland together and emigrated to a destination unknown never to be heard from again pre-1914. When I began my search I'd no idea if they really had left Scotland, or moved south to England , or sailed off to ??, or been killed in WW1 ???.
After many false trails I eventually traced one uncle to Australia about 4 years ago.
And only located the other this April, thanks to some wonderful researchers on Rootschat - He had gone to New Zealand!
So keep plodding away - there could still be more to be revealed.
Best wishes,
Looby
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Found this in my inbox this morning ...
"Thak you for your email enquiry concerning Highbury Hospital (formerly the infirmary for Basford Workhouse), which we received on the 3 June.
I checked the register of births (ref: Uhh P 7/1) and found entries for Mary Ann and John, as follows:
Uhh P 7/1
Date:Oct 5 1895
Name of parents or mother: Fisher, Mary Ann [the name of the child appears to have been entered here in error]
Parish from which admitted: Ilkeston
In what name baprized: Mary Ann
Uhh P 7/1
Date: 10 Nov 1905
Name of parents or mother: Fisher, Harriet
Parish from which admitted: Ilkeston
In what name baptized: John
The birth register covers 1899 but I could not find an entry for Alice.
I then checked the admission/discharge registers. Unfortunately, the earliest admission/discharge register we hold (ref Uhh P 1/1) begins on the 7 October 1895, which is just after Mary Ann's birth so there is no admission entry for Harriett. There is a discharge record for Harriett and Mary Ann though, containing the following information:
Uhh P 1/1
Date: 4 Nov 1895
Name: Fisher, Harriet
How discharged: Own request
Parish from whihc admitted: Ilkeston
Uhh P 1/1
Date: 4 Nov 1895
Name: Fisher, Mary Ann
How discharge: with mother
Finally, there is an admission record for John in another admission/discharge register (ref Uhh P 1/4):
Uhh P 1/4
Date: 10 Nov 1905
Name: Fisher. John
Religious persuasion: c of E
When born: 4.20am
Parish from which admitted: Ilkeston
By whose order admitted: Born
If born in the house, name of parents: Harriett
I looked through the entries for the weeks after John's birth but I could not find a discharge entry for him or Harriett. Unfortunately, names are entered in date order and there is no name index, and it is therefore necessary to look through each page until the relevant information is found, which can take some time. The records up to and including 1912 are accessible (patient records are closed for 100 years from the date of creation) and you can if you wish hire an independent researcher to visit us and carry out a more thorough search of the registers for you. For a list of researchers, please see http://www.nottinghamshire.gov.uk/learning/history/archives/enquiryresearchservices/archivesrecordagents/
Please note that one register covering 1901-1905 (ref Uhh P 1/3) is too fragile and cannot be produced for visitors in the reading room."
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That's a bit more chipped away, Carol. :)
We do know that they were still in the workhouse in 1911 but they could have been out and back I suppose. As the records finish in 1912, it may be difficult to find out any discharge after that.
At least you now know that John is another child of Harriet's and not unrelated but with the same surname.
It's a pity re Alice but if you wanted any information, you could request a check for births for an Alice Fisher or Hall with mother Harriet Fisher.
regards
heywood
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Quite a thorough search I think Carol. :) And some confirmation of facts which is good.
I suppose if Harriett is discharging herself, it is possible she is admitting herself as well? So it does look as though she was in and out of the workhouse for many years.
They say that the earliest admission register they hold begins on 7 Oct 1895 - where are the earlier registers held? (this may have been mentioned in an earlier post but I have forgotten) We should try to get a look at them if possible. There doesn't seem to be much information about the inmates when admitted. I would have hoped for more ...
I think we need a time line of workhouse admissions. ;D
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Some links that people may find interesting given the current discussions on workhouses. mrs.tenacious posted this info www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,650560.0.html
A little more info here www.whodoyouthinkyouaremagazine.com/news/new-itv-series-calling-workhouse-stories
Carol, just wondering how you could view this? The history will be great to watch and give you a real flavour surrounding these events.
Can you pick up internationally i-player programmes for the terrestial channels in the UK?
Monica
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I've already written that in my diary Monica. :) It looks very promising doesn't it.
Carol may be able to download the programme (that's how I hope to be able to watch it) :)
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heywood - I have ordered birth cert's for Harriet, Alice and John from GRO. I won't learn much more than I already have (thanks to this group!) but they are family and I will have accurate information ...
Monica - thanks for the links. We do get itv network programs here so I will keep an eye out - I'm sure the Workhouse program will be both enlightening and very difficult to watch ...
I am content with the search done by the people at the (old) Basford Workhouse - I wonder what became of Alice ... I'm glad to have the specifics of John's birth.
Thanks everybody!
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Carol, this is the link to ITV player, for catch up internet linked TV www.itv.com/itvplayer/
Monica :)
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I am content with the search done by the people at the (old) Basford Workhouse - I wonder what became of Alice ... I'm glad to have the specifics of John's birth.
We know Alice was in the workhouse with Harriett, but she may not have been born there. I suppose it is possible that whoever looked up these records may have missed Alice? :-\
I do wonder if Alice's Harriett's condition on the 1911 census was mentioned in any workhouse documents, or if she was an inmate of any other institutions in the area ....
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Ruskie, hi. I replied to the kind soul who sent the Workhouse records indicating that Alice's family name might be showing as "Hall" and not "Fisher". I felt it was worth a shot ... perhaps this is why it appears that Alice isn't with her mother in 1911 ...
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Yes, good thought Carol - there's no harm in asking.
Both Alice Fisher and John Fisher appear with Harriett in Bagthorpe Workhouse on the 1911 census.
I note that the search was of the Basford Workhouse records - who holds the Bagthorpe Workhouse records? (I'm sure this must have been covered before but I can't remember) We need to get a search of Bagthorpe too. :)
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Good day! I have just received additional information from Nottingham Uni !!
"I have located Alice in two registers, as follows:
Register of Births (ref: Uhh P 7/1)
Date 6 Feb 1899
Name of parents, or mother: Hall, Harriett
Parish from which admitted: Ilkeston
In what name baptized: Alice
Admission and Discharge Register (ref: Uhh P 1/1)
Date 6 Feb 1899
Name: Hall, Alice
Calling, if any: None
Religious persuasion: Methodist
When born: 5.50am
Parish from which admitted: Ilkeston
By whose order: Born
If born in House, name of mother or parents: Harriett
I am afraid that the name of the father is not recorded."
In addition, I received an email this morning from GRO refunding the fee for Alice's birth certificate, as they say there is no record of her. I'll try again as I had indicated that her name was "Fisher or Hall" and I'm not convinced that they would have searched for "Hall".
Digging continues ...
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;D
Good news Carol!
Progress is slow, but at least it is progress. Very valuable information.
Let us know if you have more luck with the second search for Alice's birth certificate - you would think it must be there somewhere.
Alice is Methodist
John is C of E
Not sure what to make of this. :-\
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Thanks Ruskie ;) Yes, it is positive news. Interesting that Harriet does use her married name at this point in time. I noticed the difference in denominations as well - perhaps the Hall's are Methodist and Fisher's are C of E?
Still waiting for the 2 other cert's and will try and reorder Alice Hall's! ;)
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Once again, I can't remember what has already been suggested or looked for, but as denominations are mentioned, I wonder if Harriett's children were christened? Perhaps a father might be named on baptismal records?
Also, I'm sure someone must have suggested a search of bastardy records for Ilkeston in case father is named? :-\
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Well Carole you are chipping down that brick wall, one bit at a time and achieveing great results because of the area of the country it is in which is border Nottinghamshire/Derbyshire which has lots of churches where any possible baptisms may have taken place
Ilkeston http://ilkeston.inuklocal.co.uk/churches/ and http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/DBY/Ilkeston/index.html Basford http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/NTT/Basford/
..........and hundreds in between
I PM'd you a link to East Midlands PR records link and do have other links to the areas around there if you want them and I do know the area reasonably well as I lived about 15 miles away for over 20 years PM me if you need any, unfortuneately it is too long ago that I have now lost many local and FH contacts in the area which would have been useful to you now.
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Hi - nice tiny steps of progress ;D
I was just thinking about denomination. It could be that Harriet(t) was being helped by a local minister or church - perhaps in applications for poor relief or going into workhouse - and that is why she put methodist.
Is this the birth cert that GRO say they dont have? Or did you get that one?
Hall Alice March 1899 Basford 7b 220
Strange as it is the most obvious one looking at your latest info.
Or maybe they have it but it doesn't have Harriet on it so they are saying not found?
Milly
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Hello again Carole,
That's good news- linking Alice Fisher/Hall to Harriet. I think it is great progress since that initial query.
Yes, I am fairly sure that is the birth registration that we thought may be Alice rather than an Alice Fisher one which didn't fit well with timings.
regards
heywood :)
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millymcb - thank you for that information. When I sent the request for Alice's birth cert., it wasn't clear which surname was used for her, so I ordered the certificate indicating surnames "Fisher or Hall". It's likely that GRO only researched "Fisher" and came up empty handed.
Thanks for all other comments as well as church links. I will find other descendants, by hook or by crook! ;)
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Why don't you try mother harriet(t) no surnam with that reference and ask them to check that..
And then see if they can offer anything else for alice hall or fisher - with no first name
Milly
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Hi Carol,
Bit by bit. Wonderful news.
Susan
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Mailman just delivered 2 certificates!
1873 Birth - Ilkeston - 22nd June 1873, Ilkeston, HARRIET - father George Fisher - mother Harriet Fisher, formerly Orme - Coal miner - Informant is Harriet Fisher, Mother, Charlotte Street, Ilkeston, 31 July 1873.
1905 Birth - Bulwell - 10th November 1905, 121 Highbury Road, JOHN - father "blank" - mother Harriet Fisher a Charwoman of Ilkeston - Informant is W. Turnbull, Occupier 121 Highbury Road, Nottingham, 10th November 1905.
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More confirmation, which is good. ;)
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Hi
Just in case you are not aware of it 121 Highbury Road was the Basford Workhouse Infirmary. From the early 20th century they started using street addresses rather than the word Workhouse on the likes of Births & deaths.
Andy
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I see Andy has already told you
Highbury hospital 121 Highbury Road Bulwell Nottingham NG6 9DR is a hospital part of the (NHS) Trust was known as --
Basford Workhouse (1837 - ?)
Basford Workhouse Infirmary (? - 1930)
Basford County Institution (c.1930 - 1948)
also Highbury Vale was 'next to it' in the same 'complex' in Kellys 1940 Diretory of Notttinghham it shows it as Basford Childrens Home, there were 7 'homes/cottages' there all named after trees, like Ash, Fir, Oak etc
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And in case you've not already seen this
http://www.workhouses.org.uk/Basford/
Glad you are continuing to make progress
Jan ;)
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Hi
A possible marriage for John Fisher
John Fisher to Jane Barber
Oct Qtr 1927
Reg. Basford Nottinghamshire
Vol 7b
Page 514
2 Possible children for the above couple, mother's maiden name Barber, I will not name them has they may still be living
Oct Qtr 1928
Reg Basford Derbyshire
Vol 7b
Page 352
April Qtr 1933
Reg Basford Notts/Derbyshire
Vol 7b
Page 322
Margp
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Good morning! Thanks to all for the Workhouse info - I see a trip to Nottingham/Ilkeston in my future. ;)
MargP - thank you for the information on John Fisher - it's exciting as I am now one step closer to finding living descendants with this information (once confirmed, of course).
Has anyone stumbled upon any "Orme" information? Harriet Fisher's grandmother, Sarah Orme, b. 1795, Ilkeston or Ripley(?) married John Orme, b. 1797, Ilkeston(?) and I would love to find out what Sarah Orme's maiden name was. In DNA circles, she is my furthest maternal (mother to daughter to daughter to daughter, etc.) relative and I would like to learn more about her.
Thanks again to all!
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Hi Carol
There is this marriage
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NN8H-Y8F
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NJBK-3Z2
The first must have been the banns and the second the marriage
Marg x
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Thank you MargP!
I found the following, which could be Harriet's grandmother, and may explain why Harriet indicated that she was Methodist ...
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/JMJF-BVW
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Hi Carol
I am not 100% on this, but I think that Methodist's were baptized later in life
Marg
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Hi Carol,
So glad to see you are making progress with this. Thanks for keeping us informed of your progress.
Karen
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Well done there that Marg
Susan
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Thanks Susan
It would be interesting to know, if there is a father mentioned on the marriage certificate, that's if it is the correct marriage, its the only one that stands out for me, all the others seem to have a middle name.
Marg
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Marg
A public tree on A*****y has Sarah Atherley - father John Atherley, mother Sarah Knighton
married John Orme
John Orme father Nathanial Orme, mother Ruth Green
quite a few children listed
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Thanks Susan! Interesting to see Knighton a possibility in Harriet's family, as Mary Caladine, wife of Thomas Fisher, had a grandmother named Flora Knighton, b. 1735.
I love, and am amazed to see this tree growing!
Thank you, so very much, to all of you!
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Carol,
On the right track. Wonderful. I am so happy for you. :)
Susan
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On the censuses john Orme b. abt 1796/1797 is clearly from Ireland
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cocksie, thank you for pointing that out - I now recall seeing that John Orme's birthplace was listed somewhere as "Ireland" ...
Is searching for ancestors in Ireland difficult? At one point in time, I tried to find my paternal gr-grandmother without success ... so there's Irish on both sides of my gene pool ... interesting ...
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cocksie, thank you for pointing that out - I now recall seeing that John Orme's birthplace was listed somewhere as "Ireland" ...
Is searching for ancestors in Ireland difficult? At one point in time, I tried to find my paternal gr-grandmother without success ... so there's Irish on both sides of my gene pool ... interesting ...
You are going into another different records system, pre 1921 all Ireland's records were kept in Dublin post 1922 they are split between Dublin for the ROI and Belfast for NI at PRONI a 'fab' new building now in the Titanic Quarter.
Trouble is that there are no lists of movements between the island of Ireland and the island of Britain, (even now it is free movement, no passports etc) so the difficulty you face is you need to know where in Ireland, it may be a small island but it is impossible to blanket search and still with limited online resources.
People generally repeat the " Four Courts Fire" as lost of all the Irish records, but most of those lost were not what you would use for FH, the Government deliberately also burned all the census 1841-1891 some remnants remain but not enough ( 1901/1911 remain and are online and free including each scan of each record).
The key is to find the name of your family's townland in Ireland, you need to now their religion then you have a chance of researching.
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For some reason I have not received notifications of any replies over the past couple of days.
I just want to say how happy I am that you are making yet more progress Carol!
Regarding possible descendants of John's two children - what would be the best way to trace them and their descendants? Carol, if you find any, please let us know (obviously without mentioning names) - I am keeping my fingers crossed that you will be able to make contact with living relatives. Very exciting! :)
Thank you for keeping us up to date with your progress.
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In Ireland, aren't family names linked to specific geographical areas? In my DNA matches, I have relatives in the north but more in the south. One of my Northern Ireland matches has both "Hall" and "Green" in her list of ancestors, so I have sent her a note. My paternal clan were supposedly from the Waterford/Wexford area and emigrated from Cork.
This Ireland research is not my priority, (I am still eager to find descendants of Harriet Fisher) but I do find it very interesting ...
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In Ireland, aren't family names linked to specific geographical areas?
Not sure - probably to a similar extent that they are in other areas:
http://gbnames.publicprofiler.org/
:)
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In Ireland, aren't family names linked to specific geographical areas?
Not really, you need a Townland at least and their religion as I said, that gives you at least a start by pinpointing the area and which records you need to look at. Ireland is no different to anywhere else, as in if the 'family' stayed in one area it can make it easier to research, 'if' your ancestor was the eldest son and if the family farmed then it is more likely he took over the farm and remained, if not and with little census or prior to census dates it is then difficult to track family groups and /or movements.
The Irish have always been 'adventurers' and still are immigrating all over the world and nipping over to Britain and back. Sometimes it helps to look at family script and that may give you an indication of likely migrating/movement behaviour, who they worked for, job they did etc may give you areas owned by their employer both in Ireland and Britain.
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Am catching up after missing the last few weeks. It is really great to see that steady progress is being made. I was having a look at the ORME trees on A****.
The most comprehensive one looks well researched, but from what I can figure they have a problem with their Isaac ORME who marries Ellen NEWBUTT in 1850 giving father as John ORME.
This Isaac isn't fitting with any census, but from what I can figure they appear to have 'shoehorned' him into Harriet Orme's 1841 family, among with a couple of other approaches they are taking to solve the problem, none of them really working !!! (I do this myself, and it can sometimes help find a straight line through a tangle) Any record found of her having a brother Isaac ??
However they have however continued to work on Sarah Atherley/Orme. One thing caught my eye - Her mother Sarah KNIGHTON is listed as to have been married previously to a William RYLEY in 1887 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NN87-D57
so that might explain the Methodist Baptism you found for Sarah ATHERLEY with mother named as Sarah RILEY! Possibly, Sarah converted as an adult ? perhaps she thought her mothers maiden name to be Riley/Ryley
also a marriage of John Atherley and Sarah Knighton in 1794
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NN87-NXW
Of course this is all conjecture so far but (not sure if this has been mentioned before but just in case) if you don't have easy access to an LDS center, they have a fairly new email service, where they will email high quality scans of original images to you for FREE.
You can order a max of 5 per month.
There is a 4-6 week waiting time but I'm sure you're well used to all the waiting by now !
Just check they have the microfiche roll that you need using the Catalog page.
https://familysearch.org/catalog-search
and then fill in the application form on this page
https://familysearch.org/learn/wiki/en/Photoduplication_Services
so maybe something to work on while waiting for certs to arrive. Obviously they don't have access to Civil records. I've lost track of what you have gotten, baptism records wise - but sure there are some already found that would be helpful ? also the marriage MargeP found for John Orme and Sarah.
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I have looked into this Isaac Orme.
IGI has his baptism 1830 Ilkeston (b 7 apr 1824 or 1827), parents Nathaniel and Ann.
He is living with Nathaniel in 1841
Isaac's marriage to Ellen lists his dad as John. Which is possibly where the confusion starts
As far as I can tell the John Orme (b. Ireland) who married Sarah Atherley in 1814, Ilkeston, had one son, John, in 1817 - followed by daughters (including Harriet). Chasing up this marriage in 1814 via the LDS system (which sounds fantastic by the way) might provide a clue or two!
Cocksie
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... if you don't have easy access to an LDS center, they have a fairly new email service, where they will email high quality scans of original images to you for FREE.
You can order a max of 5 per month.
Just check they have the microfiche roll that you need using the Catalog page.
https://familysearch.org/catalog-search
and then fill in the application form on this page
https://familysearch.org/learn/wiki/en/Photoduplication_Services
Hasta, thank you very much for this information - I was not aware of this new service. It could come in very handy. :)
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Thanks everyone for the info and links! I just returned home from my 1st session at the LDS Family Search Centre where I ordered the film for John Orme and Sarah Atherley's marriage. I spent the remainder of my time looking at "Orme" trying to find a link to John Orme's entry of "Ireland" as his place of birth. I found my branch of "Orme" going back to 1560, all born in Derbyshire. Maybe his mother, Ruth Green, was Irish?
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Hi Carol have a look at www.nationalarchives.ie in 1901 census ireland there are 79 entries for Orme surname
www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation which was a type of land survey carried out in mid 1850's, this is showing 1159 Orme entries.
Continued good wishes with your search :)
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Thanks for keeping us up to date with your progress Carol. :)
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Morning Carol (or evening)
Great to see you are leaving no (or seemingly very few) stones unturned.
But I am a little confused. The census records clearly state John' origin/native place/birth is Ireland. How can "your branch" stretch back to 1500s in Derbyshire? Are you thinking that John's father was in Ireland for a while, marrying and procreating and then went back to Derbyshire?
Cocksie
Ps I have noticed a Nathaniel Orme of similar vintage to John Orme lurking in Ilkeston at similar time, also having a son John. Albeit Nat is born in Derbyshire. Are Nathaniel and John related?
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Hi Cocksie! Thanks for your post. I found those Orme entries on an Ancestry tree that had a whole bunch of my family showing in their tree - I got excited to see so many Orme's so took a quick note of them all while I was at the LDS Family History Centre, (I don't have access to Ancestry at home) and I didn't confirm that the John Orme shown was 'mine'. Stupid of me ... I just assumed...
I did find an Isaac Orme, b. 1827, d. 1904, son of Sarah and John, who married Ellen Newbutt, b. 1832, d. 1910.
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I have followed your your search from the first post, and it is great to see that little by little you a chipping away at your brick wall. Keep going Carol. Pretty sure all will be revealed soon.
Good luck
Trish
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I've been thinking about the Methodist clues.
Have you had a look at non conformist records? Www.bmdregisters.co.uk? Doesn't cost to search (does cost to look at the record), but sometimes a search result listing gives very good clues. I've had a quick look and there are Fishers, Ormes, Calladine (remember to try spelling variations for this name), Atherleys and scattergood Methodists in Derbyshire and all connected. Even with a search result listing you can see maternal grandparents listed sometimes which helps verify things, or help make links.
Cocksie
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Greetings chatters! After a very long wait, this morning I received an email from GRO indicating they were refunding my payment as there is no "Alice Hall, born 6 Feb. 1899" showing in any registry.
The digging continues ...
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Ah well Carol! It is possibly as simple as she was using a middle name ...keep digging you will uncover more 'treasure' I'm sure......... it is amazing what you have dug up so far
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Hi Carol,
this may not be her but it is an Alice Hall in the right period ???
Alice Hall March 1899 Basford vol 7b page 220
best wishes
heywood
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Hi heywood ... I provided GRO with Alice Hall's information with the year of birth between 1898-1900. I think I'll bite the bullet and order the cert based on the info you provided above. Thanks!
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Good luck Carol. It is worth a try! :)
Third fourth fifth ? time lucky. :)
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lol - thanks Ruskie. Cert just ordered - hopefully it won't take as long with the exact location of the record being provided ... There has been nothing said about the marriage cert between Harriet and James Hall so hopefully that cert is in the mail.
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Fingers crossed it is her :)
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Mine too ;)
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Hi
A possible marriage for John Fisher
John Fisher to Jane Barber
Oct Qtr 1927
Reg. Basford Nottinghamshire
Vol 7b
Page 514
2 Possible children for the above couple, mother's maiden name Barber, I will not name them has they may still be living
Oct Qtr 1928
Reg Basford Derbyshire
Vol 7b
Page 352
April Qtr 1933
Reg Basford Notts/Derbyshire
Vol 7b
Page 322
Margp
Hi Carol, I have just been catching up with this, did you manage to get anything on this yet
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Hi MargP, I haven't been able to make any headway on this. I sent a note to the Barber that I am matched with (through DNA) but he has chosen not to respond. :( I am also still waiting for cert's to arrive. Thanks for following-up on this.
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Keep in there Carol, I think that you are amazing, and it is my pleasure to do anything I can to help, and I think all of Roots are behind you on this too
Marg xx
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Hi all! I have just received the birth cert. for Alice HALL!!! It reads:
1899 Birth in the sub-district of Basford, county of Nottingham
1. Sixth February 1899 Basford Workhouse, Basford, Nottingham
2. Alice
3. Girl
4. (Name and surname of father) BLANK
5. (Name, surname of mother) HARRIET HALL, a Hosiery Seamer(?) of Ilkeston
Thanks to all - this has to be my grandmother's sister. :)
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Amazing ;D
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Carol,
I am thrilled for you - that's wonderful news.
heywood :) :)
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HARRIET HALL, a Hosiery Seamer(?) of Ilkeston
Likely a hosiery seamstress.
Monica
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What a wonderful breakthrough for you! It will slowly piece together with time and effort. Well done!
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Hi all! I have just received the birth cert. for Alice HALL!!! It reads:
1899 Birth in the sub-district of Basford, county of Nottingham
1. Sixth February 1899 Basford Workhouse, Basford, Nottingham
2. Alice
3. Girl
4. (Name and surname of father) BLANK
5. (Name, surname of mother) HARRIET HALL, a Hosiery Seamer(?) of Ilkeston
Thanks to all - this has to be my grandmother's sister. :)
You must be pleased with all you have found out since you started this 'search' .
I lived for years about 12 miles from Ilkeston, loved going shopping there especially on market days, lovely street market and visited every year when the whole of the town was closed off from traffic and the road was filled with the fair where some of the fair rides and stalls went to after the Goose Fair in Nottingham, it completely filled the town for about a week, a great atmosphere which your ancestors would have seen and been to..........I am really pleased you have found as much as you have
Even today some of the top designer hosiery is still produced in Ilkeston.
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Hello Carol
I am so pleased that you have received this information. It is another step forward. I think a seamer sewed stockings and they often worked in their own home
Chris
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Fabulous news. Onwards & upwards!
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The facts on the certificate fit perfectly with what you already know and expected to see. The additional snippet (Harriet's occupation) is an unexpected bonus - isn't it amazing how something so trivial can be so exciting, and make the expense and wait for the certificate worthwhile. Every little fact adds another layer to the story. :)
What are we you still waiting for as far as certificates go?
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Thanks to all, once again, for all of the assistance and support in helping put all of these pieces together - to finally know, for certain, where your close ancestors were from and what they did in life has been more than I could have ever hoped for. I owe all of you a huge debt of gratitude.
My Mom, and her sister, were very gifted with their hands - they both had a knack for embroidery, knitting, petit point, etc., there wasn't anything that they couldn't create. To know that their grandmother was a silk weaver and hosiery weaver and their gr-grandmother was a lacemaker is just so fitting. If they had only known ... I'm deeply touched to have all of this information in my hands. I wish I knew how to express my gratitude to this group who has walked me through all of this, step by step.
With this latest information on Alice, I might be able to now come forward and find living descendants, so that is now my focus (together with trying to find my paternal grandmother's true identity and ancestry!). I also haven't found Sarah Orme's maiden name and she is the furthest that I go back on all of my maternal side. Interestingly, I was going to name my daughter "Sarah" and then changed my mind - my daughter is now starting her family and has decided to use the name "Sara" if she happens to have a girl. Touches my heart, and I'm sure that Mary Ann Fisher is very proud. Thanks to all - you're an amazing group.
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Really delighted for you Carol after your epic journey you hopefully will be able to trace Alice's family. Continued best wishes to you on your search. Frances :) :) :)
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Hi Ruskie, thanks for your post. I think that I have all that I have ordered - I am in possession of birth certificates for Harriet Fisher as well as her 3 children: Mary Anne Fisher, Alice Hall and John Fisher, and I also have the marriage certificate of Harriet Fisher and James Hall. :)
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So Carol, is this your 'journey' to finding the correct birth certificate for Alice Hall? Have I got this right?
Greetings chatters! After a very long wait, this morning I received an email from GRO indicating they were refunding my payment as there is no "Alice Hall, born 6 Feb. 1899" showing in any registry.
The digging continues ...
Hi Carol,
this may not be her but it is an Alice Hall in the right period ???
Alice Hall March 1899 Basford vol 7b page 220
best wishes
heywood
Hi heywood ... I provided GRO with Alice Hall's information with the year of birth between 1898-1900. I think I'll bite the bullet and order the cert based on the info you provided above. Thanks!
Hi all! I have just received the birth cert. for Alice HALL!!! It reads:
1899 Birth in the sub-district of Basford, county of Nottingham
1. Sixth February 1899 Basford Workhouse, Basford, Nottingham
2. Alice
3. Girl
4. (Name and surname of father) BLANK
5. (Name, surname of mother) HARRIET HALL, a Hosiery Seamer(?) of Ilkeston
Clearly there WAS a birth for an Alice Hall on 6th Feb 1899.
So looking at this, should we wonder how thoroughly our requests for searches are being undertaken by the GRO?
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Carol, maybe a seperate request for Sarah Orme's maiden name would be a good idea. (provide a link to this thread in case anyone has the stamina to go through it ;D)
And another request for help tracing Alice and (eventual) possible living descendants on a different thread? Obviously when it comes to dealing with possible living people then any information would have to be exchanged via PM. But a reqest for a head start to find marriage etc for Alice would be a good idea. :)
Please let us know if you start either or both of these threads so we can follow them. :)
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Ruskie - that's exactly how the GRO search for Alice's birth cert played-out. Not too impressive, is it - although I think that I indicated that the mother's name was "Harriet Fisher" - father "James Hall". That might have triggered the 'no such person' response to my original request.
I am going to follow your advice and post queries today, looking for Sarah Orme and Alice Hall.
Fingers crossed. ;)
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So pleased for you Carol!!
Karen
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Well done for persisting with the GRO !
What about the John Orme/Sarah Atherley 1814 marriage ?
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NJBK-3Z2
I thought that looked promising
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Hasta - yes, good grief, I have that written down separately, under 'pending'. I got side-tracked with John Orme as his place of birth is stated as "Ireland" but I can't find him anywhere. I have DNA cousins covering every corner of Ireland (my Dad's ancestors are from Wexford/Waterford/Cork). I have more Irish ancestry than I thought and I would like to find out where the Orme's were from.
Also, it was the next generation of "Sarah" whose maiden name needs to be confirmed ... sorry for the confusion.
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- although I think that I indicated that the mother's name was "Harriet Fisher" - father "James Hall".
That may be the reason I expect, IF you specified a father's name. ( as there was speculation about all three of Harriet's children having the same father I'm not sure if you would have said James Hall should be the father :-\). No matter, as you had a successful outcome, but It is something for us all to be mindful of when ordering from the GRO without exact reference details. :)
I don't think there is enough leeway on the form to explain what we know and what we are looking for - in one case I was looking for a death certificate - I knew the date of burial so obviously death would not have occurred much prior to burial, however there was nowhere on the form that I could tell them this fact to save a search for a year prior to and after burial. I imagine it comes down to limited resources at the GRO, however in some cases, such as the one I mentioned, being able to narrow the search would save them time and unnecessary effort. :-\
Just as an aside, the online surname profiler says that the surname Orme is English, regional East Midands.
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Thanks Ruskie - I have difficulty going back into the GRO site to check particulars about previous orders. The reply that I received after attempting to order Alice's birth cert follows:
"Thank you for your order as detailed below.
Birth Certificate: ALICE HALL born 06-FEB-1899 in BASFORD WORKHOUSE NOTTINGHAM
We have been unable to process your application, please refer to the paragraph below.
We have searched the indexes for events registered in England and Wales during the years specified (1898-00). We have been unable to find any entry with the details you provided."
I thought that my request was very clear - they had the exact date of birth, name, location ... whether I included "James Hall" or not is unclear ... regardless, I think that they had enough 'exact' info to locate and issue this birth certificate. Thankfully it all worked out - only because of this group!
While researching Orme's in Ireland, I found a few in Co. Mayo, but I can't make a connection - yet.
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I found the same thing when searching for the death I mentioned. I wanted to check what information I had already provided, as I wished to try again, but couldn't remember what I had provided and could find no way of checking previous orders/requests.
You would think they could use a bit of common sense and for example tell you there is a birth with all details matching, except father's name, but it probably comes down to resources. I know if you have reference numbers and perhaps a name is misspelled on the index, and you order using what you believe is the correct spelling, eg name is in index as Smyth, but you order as Smith, then they will not issue the certificate, even if other reference details tally.
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Ruskie - now that we know the ins and outs of GRO, I would advise anyone ordering certificates to print a copy of each order before finalizing the certificate purchase through the GRO website. Lesson learned.
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Carol may or may not be relevant to your search
Marriage Oct Quarter 1923 Alice Hall - Spouse Smith Reg District Nottinghamshire Vol 7b Page 763
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Caroll Good luck with your future searches, you have come a long way since your first post and I have followed every post since, it is amazing what you find with help from the experts who have done a tremedous job as have the folks that belong to the forum, keep going as I know that all your brickwalls will eventually fall.
Have faith.
Trish
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Ballydw - wonderful news! Then again, why oh why does the surname have to be "Smith" ... ;) I keep hoping that an exotic surname will surface to make the search for these people a little easier.
Trish - thank you for following my story and also for your input and support. What an experience this has been! :) I can't, and won't, give up until I find these people, and hopefully descendants, so my labour of love continues ...
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Carol may or may not be relevant to your search
Marriage Oct Quarter 1923 Alice Hall - Spouse Smith Reg District Nottinghamshire Vol 7b Page 763
FreeBMD shows he was Ernest Smith, was hoping for a very rare christian name :(
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After a very long wait, I have finally received the LDS Microfilm containing records from the Parish in Ilkeston, Derby! It took so long to arrive that I had forgotten why I had ordered it! One of the many family entries that I saw was the marriage of John Orme to Sarah Atherley - it took place with consent of parents so no names or locations of family are shown. They married on 15 May 1814 with witnesses being: Sam L. Orme and William Tunincliff.
There was also a marriage, on 26 Dec. 1815, of a Nathaniel Orme and Sarah Skeavington (sp?).
I also saw a marrage of a James Sifson (sp?) and Ann Knighton on 27 Feb. 1816, witnessed by: John Orme and Henry Higgitt.
Another marriage on 27 June 1817 of William Atherley and Sarah Beer, wtinessed by: John Orme and Henry Sills.
Another on 16 Jan. 1819 of Joseph Knighton and Sarah Strangeway, witnessed by: Ferdinand Wright and James Webster Spencer.
I reached 1820 and had to call it a day ... I have access to the Microfilm until early November, so will return to do more reading.
There was also a death of a William Knighton (age 36) of Colmanhay, Ilkeston on 6 May 1814.
I suspect that all of these people are somehow connected in my family tree.
An interesting note: William Tunincliff also witnessed the marriage of John Briggs and Catherine Dakin of 15 Sept. 1814 - also witnessed by William Smith and John Bostock. He also witnessed a marriage of a John Fisher and Phoebe Henshaw on 16 May 1818. His name kept surfacing which I found interesting.
That's it for now ...
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Carol,
Sometimes the witnesses to marriages are church wardens or other folk involved with the church, not necessarily related to the happy couple. It is quite usual to see the same signatures over numerous pages in parish registers.
It is very worthwhile doing as you are and going through the microfilm. You never know if some of these people might come in handy later. :) Make note of any missing years in the registers just in case some of your folks might have slipped through a gap.
Thanks for keeping us up to date with your progress. :)
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Hi
A possible marriage for John Fisher
John Fisher to Jane Barber
Oct Qtr 1927
Reg. Basford Nottinghamshire
Vol 7b
Page 514
2 Possible children for the above couple, mother's maiden name Barber, I will not name them has they may still be living
Oct Qtr 1928
Reg Basford Derbyshire
Vol 7b
Page 352
April Qtr 1933
Reg Basford Notts/Derbyshire
Vol 7b
Page 322
Margp
Hi Carol, I have just been catching up with this, did you manage to get anything on this yet
Hi Carol, I would try and find any living relatives of the above
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Thanks Ruskie - I had wondered if maybe Mr. Tunincliff was a 'fill in' for any missing or absent witnesses, but what struck me was that I only saw him acting as a witness in marriages of people who are in my tree. I'll keep an eye out for him as I continue through the microfilm though.
Marg, would you mind sending me a private message with the names of the Fisher descendants that you found? :)
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Thanks Marg! I have ordered the marriage certificate of John Fisher and Jane Barber through the GRO.
Fingers crossed.
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Thanks Marg! I have ordered the marriage certificate of John Fisher and Jane Barber through the GRO.
Fingers crossed.
I'm sure it must have been mentioned previously, but how did you come to believe that this John Fisher might be relevant? Just the right name in the right place at about the right time?
You are thinking he might be Harriet's son?
If so we may be hoping for NO father to be named? If age 'fits' then this will indicate that this may be 'your' John? Have I got that right? Do you have John's birth certifcate yet. (Apologies for my forgetfulness - I just need a recap on this line of investigation ;))
PS. I suppose Tunincliff may have been a family friend as he witnessed so many marriages. Unusual name - you might be able to track him down via bmd and censuses .... :-\
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Hi Ruskie - yes, I am hoping that this John Fisher is 'mine'. I do have the birth certificate for Harriet's son, John, and this guy could very well be him. I am curious to see who (if anyone) is listed as his family.
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Hi all - I have just received the certified copy of an entry of marriage for John Fisher and Jane Barber. The handwriting is difficult, but it appears as though it reads:
Marriage solemnized at The Parish Church in the Parish of Ilkeston, in the County of Derby
Dec. 24, 1927
John Fisher, age 21, bachelor, Lead-washer(?), 32 Richmond Avenue, father: Alfred? Fisher, Labourer
Jane Barber, age 19, Spinster, 38 Bearn? St., Thomas? Barber, Labourer
Witnesses: William Winfield and Polly Barber.
If this "John Fisher" was 21 in 1927, then he was born in 1906 - 'my' John Fisher was born in Nov. 1905. My 'Barber' (a DNA relative) never responded to my message where I relayed these names and asked about a possible connection.
So ... back to the drawing board ...
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Oh dear that's not the news you were hoping for. :(
As we know sometimes fathers were invented on marriage certificates possibly to appear more 'respectable'. Just to be sure, it could be worth looking for this Fisher family with father Alfred in the censuses, just for peace of mind. :-\
PS. You can always post the indecipherable words here so we can see what we think.
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Yes, there is a Fisher family which would fit, looking at the indexes.
Father would be Alfred born 1862, Ilkeston with parents John and Mary.
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Thanks once again Heywood! Ruskie, I was going to ask whether I could copy the certificate to this site but now I don't think there's a need. Perhaps Alfred and Harriet are related, but I'm not going in that direction at this point in time ...
Thanks for the comments ...
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I am going to read this topic as a bedtime story
In bursts
Meanwhile if you want help working out paternal DNA link by a process of elimination I can help . My nana. Was adopted and we didn't knownher birth mothers married name DNA linked toner ancestors and her descendants. Same for birth father
PM me I'm in Leicester..
..would you mind if we used the story for a time travel detective slot on community radio?
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Hi. Thanks for your message. I have done DNA testing and have Fisher ancestry going back to 1600s. I’m still not sure if her father was a Hall but I suspect he was. The name surfaces on my paternal side too,which throws me off.
I really do not want you to use this story - I may take it public but would like to do that myself, when I’m ready. I hope you understand.
Thank you.
Carol
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Perfectly understandable
Tho you could always tell story about Mr X ..so none of the Hall family would be offended
When I found that my great grandma could be a child trafficker I was concerned her 3 living grand children would be upset but 1 saw her as a baby placer helping unmarried girls and infertile couples 1 was pleased to have an interesting story of the gmother she.doesn't never known & the 1 who had knowon about his legit. Grandmother was pleased that there was a reason his father hadn't been very fond of her.
The offer to help you with the DNA mystery still holds ...do you have any cousins who have taken the test. ..and are any of your matches 3rd or 4th cousins ?
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I'm on page 24 now not read pages inbetween yet !
I'm dictating on voice activation so don't know how to punctuate *modified post after
#reply 95 about privacy its all public on here but only for people who are searching...thats not the same as broadcasting the story ...
Re. replies about waiting impatiently
&contacting living descendants
just to let you know there is a modern invention called a telephone
the records office are often extra helpful when you query by phone &
will give an estimated time they need to research I
was lucky enough to talk to a student who was happy to go above and beyond because she never ,seen an affiliation order before
I cant afford to?pay for many documents or research time
British people could phone for Carol also we could take her on a virtual tour of local places without having to take plane does that make sense I
we are all deeply involved in this story now and rooting for you Carol to get the answers
BTW definitely contact living descendants they may know the family dark secrets stories from their grandparents
My. American4th cousins provided me with photo of great great grandfather
British cousin once removed filled us in on what became of great grandmother (his grandmother) when she put my nana to board with a family ....
no pic of her yet tho ..
.his elder estranged half siblings may have had them (not found their descendants. ...yet )
his aged mother and wife)
Is very ill and Alzheimer's but there may be photos of her 1950 s wedding so mother in law our great grandmother could be on 1
If you need 3rd party to make initial phone contact with descendants we could do that too
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Could you repost that beautiful pic of your grandmother please
If any descendants of her half cousins turn up ....family resemblance may play a part in finding them
Mr X could even have been photographed for criminal record or in a newspaper
We found 2 photos of my mothers potential grandfather one on his alien registration document 1915
Another from a hospital record 1920 ..mum wasn't convinced it was same man !!he looked. So much older and scruffy
But there were resemblance with my known cousins
both documents were In Wales which didn't link to our birkenhead records
Turned out hospital named next of kin and it was sister in Scotland
Also helpfully said he was 2nd eldest of 11.
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With the help of others, I now have my grandmother's family tree going back to the 1600s. I haven't connected with any family yet but at least I know who they are (on her maternal side). My other (paternal) grandmother was also an orphan so I'm now focussed on her story. I have many 3rd and 4th cousins on the various DNA sites but am struggling to connect the dots as there are so many unknowns.
My own family are not fully aware of Mary Ann Fisher's story so it is very personal to me and I refuse to release it until I feel that the time is right - which it isn't.
Thanks.