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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: CarolRR on Tuesday 14 May 13 20:41 BST (UK)
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First post ... Hello to all.
My maternal grandmother, at the approximate age of 2 years (in 1897) was stolen by a professional beggar/tramp who used her for begging purposes. He was known to authorities, his 'territory' being Derby to Northampton. Six months after taking her, authorities caught up with him in Loughborough, where he was charged (Loughboro Petty Sessions) and convicted. My grandmother, unable to identify herself, was made a ward of the state and entered NSPCC. Not long afterwards, she was placed into Barnardo's, Stepney Causeway. She was later placed in a foster home in Kent for a few years and then at age 9, with the foster mother too ill to care for her, she was shipped to Canada under the government's "Home Child" program. She never knew her true identity, and I made a vow to my Mum that I would do everything possible to try and find her missing family, and hopefully, discover her true identity.
I recently had DNA testing in an attempt to find family but so far, I'm not getting anywhere. I have been conducting research for the last 10 years and am very eager to uncover something about her.
Any ideas of where I can turn would be greatly appreciated. Some popular names surfacing as DNA matches with me are: Owens, Potter, Lewis, Weeks, Chase, etc. It appears she may have been of Austrian/German/Dutch ancestry as I have discovered ancestors in Romania, Poland, France, Netherlands, Georgia, Ukraine, Russia, Lithuania, Estonia, etc. Also, an Amish/Mennonite ancestor has surfaced and I cannot explain any of these matches.
I realize that her story may not have survived - existing family may not even know that she existed, or may have been told that she died as a young child, which is heartbreaking to think about. I can't begin to image what something like this does to a family.
If anyone can help to find my missing family, I would be more than grateful.
Thank you in advance.
Carol
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How sad :'(
Have you tried newspapers as when the child went missing there might be a article about it.
Also a article on the person who took her, might give something up maybe. Do you have a name for him?
I have been checking some newspapers but without a name its making it hard but i will keep looking, you just never know.
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"Six months after taking her, authorities caught up with him in Loughborough"
How do you know that six months had passed? That implies that there was a police investigation of some kind. Have you found any police records or any public notices seeking to identify her and return her to her family?
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Have you obtained your grandmother's NSPCC and Barnardo records?
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I have been checking some newspapers but without a name its making it hard but i will keep looking, you just never know.
Hi Carol:
I've been thinking along the same lines as giblet and have been searching old newspapers. If you could provide us with any additional details you have it would help.
sami
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Hello CarolRR
and welcome,
what a tale that one is ... sad and very interesting. It is one for the long haul I should imagine.
You can be re-assured that you will get help on this site, there are 'magic' researchers on here.
But before they start they will need to know as much information as possible.
For instance where did you get the information you already have?
Is it a reliable source or word of mouth?
Have you any documentation whatsoever regarding your search?
It seems as though you do have some detailed information as you say the authorities knew of the tramp. etc .. and you talk of a court case.. so that should all reap rewards in the way of records.
The child home programme is surely somewhere you can find details.
so this basically is for me to assess what you have and where to start ...
Wish you all the best with this one.
xin
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Thank you giblet and Erato for your responses.
I wrote to NSPCC and was told that records no longer existed. I also wrote to Loughborough Petty Sessions and was told the same thing - records are no longer available.
I received the Barnardo file almost 10 years ago, which is where I got the information that I have. In that file, Barnardo's state that custody of my grandmother was given to NSPCC because no family was known. If only he had said where he had taken her from ... she was only 2 years old so would not be able to express herself to authorities. The beggar/tramp was a Mr. James Hall and as much as I have tried, without knowing her name or the location where he had picked her up, it's impossible to trace.
James Hall used to frequent "a long house" (?) in Loughborough which is where they apprehended him, with my grandmother. Some kind soul reported him to authorities as they happened to witness him physically abusing this child.
Barnardo's entrance report states that my grandmother was approximately 2 years of age and a rather small child, with 2 vaccination marks on her left arm. That is all the personal information that I have been provided with. I do have a photo of her, taken in her early 20's.
Barnardo's named her "Mary Ann Williams" (a name that she never liked) and assigned a birthdate to her. It is a heartbreaking story ... I would love for her family to know that she survived ... and I would love to go to the cemetery and update her personal information to include her proper full name and her actual date of birth. Hopefully someday I will be able to do that.
Thank you once again for your replies.
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Hello xin,
Thank you for your reply - I believe it got crossed with my previous reply, which I think answers the questions you were asking.
I remain hopeful that I'll get to the bottom of this, hopefully within the next 10 years!
Thanks to all, you are most kind.
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Hi Carol,
The file definitely says your grandmother had been stolen/kidnapped?
Sorry for all the questions just trying to dot all I's and cross all T's.
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A terribly sad story but it would be nice if you could finally find the answers to at least some of the questions.
Wonder if newspaper reports might give more clues (this sort of story could have ben copied to other papers at the time)- do you have a date when she was found or for the court case?
New thread-
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,647367.msg4940198.html#msg4940198
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What a dreadful story
SHOCKING CRUELTY TO A CHILD AT LOUGHBOROUGH .
Nottinghamshire Guardian (London, England), Saturday, January 15, 1898
At the petty sessions, ~ James Hall described as a labourer was charged with cruelty to the child on November 13th and 14th. Mr Deane jun. prosecuted on behalf of the NSPCC and stated the case was one of gross cruelty. The prisoner had been in the habit of tramping in this part of the country, having with him a child of about two years old. He had not always the same woman with him, and the one he was living with now was not the mother of the child. Evidence showed that the prisoner kicked the child, pushed it against a stone sink, causing a wound on the little ones forehead. He frequently put it in a small cupboard and had hung it up to the ceiling by a strap.
Prisoner, asked what he had to offer in his defence said the child was his own and was two years old October last. He married the mother at Ilkeston Old Church , when the child was a few months old. He was then working at the Stanton Ironworks Company. The child had always something to eat and a place to sleep in. At November Fair at Loughborough his wife was hopping about the town with another man, so he thought it was about time he got rid of her and he went off with someone else.
He was sentenced to ten weeks hard labour
claire
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Oh my god the poor little thing was his own child :'(
Good fine Claire.
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Oh my god the poor little thing was his own child :'(
Good fine Claire.
Well, that's what he said but could easily been lying to get off... or get a lighter sentence.
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If he can be believed, his description would suggest a birthdate of October, 1895 and a marriage in 1896.
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Oh my god the poor little thing was his own child :'(
Good fine Claire.
Not necessarily.....
"He married the mother at Ilkeston Old Church , when the child was a few months old."
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Fire away, please feel free to ask whatever you like.
Barnardo's document reads:
"This 'unknown child' came to us on the application of Miss Bolton, Sec. of the NSPCC, Harper Street, Bloomsbury: our knowledge of the following facts being gathered from the papers forwarded to us by the Society: -
Mary Ann (who is but two years old) was in the custody of a professional tramp and beggar named James Hall -- who is stated to be in no way related to the child, but used it for begging purposes.
William Gresley, manager, and Martha Hayward, female deputy, of a model Lodging at Loughboro', stated (when the case came into Court) that Hall, in company with a woman, was in the habit of stopping at their house during the last six months. On each occasion the man 'more or less' ill-treated the child whom - the woman informed them - 'they had picked up".
Hall tramped the country between Derby, Leicester and Northampton. A warrant was issued for his apprehension but he managed to abscond, and for a considerable time eluded the police. On 12th January last the case against him was heard at Loughboro' Petty Sessions and he was sentenced to ten week's hard labour. The NSPCC were granted the legal custody of the child, no trace of whose parent or parents could be discovered."
This document is dated as: Admitted -- 1st March, 1898 (Age - 2 1/2 years)
Also, I don't know what the implication of this is, but the document also states: "Name given as protegee to H. Myers, Esq. The Long House, Leatherhead, Surrey" - then a note added on "7.6.05 Mr. Myers wrote acknowledging child's photo".
There are examples of his cruelty in the document - these abuses are noted as being 'in November'.
That's basically all I have ... other than physical description:
Colour of Hair - Light (as an adult, she had very dark brown hair, curly)
Colour of Eyes - brown
Height - 2 ft. 7 1/2 in.
Complexion - Fair
Vacc Marks - 2 l.a.
Weight - 21 lbs.
Condition of Body - Very thin.
Remarks by Medical Officer - Very small child.
That's it.
Again, many thanks!
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OH MY GOD. The example of his cruelty are the same stories contained in the Barnardo's file. I am going to be sick.
Is the mother's name listed in the marriage information?
Please God, don't let this man be her father ...
Then again, if he was her biological father, she went on to have really good life - a full education, a happy, successful marriage, etc.
Sorry, I'm venting.
Now I have to find out which of his stories is the right one ...
I owe you so much!!! I can't begin to thank you!!!
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All I can see so far, is an extremely nasty little man. I for one do NOT think he is the biological father. (however we will probably never know) If he is Carol, do not let this upset you too much. As you say, she became a wonderful person and that makes up for what he did to her.
In those days people sold children or left them to starve, or even died and the child was alone.
(not much different really!!! sorry to say)
The areas you mention him 'tramping' are the areas to search for a missing child. You may just be lucky and come across something.. the Newspaper Archives are a good starting place. They are on line and can be accessed by pay as you go.
xin
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Thank you xin. I keep reminding myself of the era and I know that it was miserable for a lot of people. James Hall likely knew that he would get a lighter sentence by admitting to 'child abuse' then if he admitted to 'child abuse AND kidnapping' ...
I do have a couple of DNA matches with "Hall" showing in their ancestral names, but the segments are very small so would indicate the connection is very far back, about 8-10 generations. I think that my search continues ... I'm glad that I don't know anyone with the name "Hall" right now ...
I live in Canada and am not familiar with the towns and villages in England. Although strangely enough, my Dad was in the Canadian Air Force and was sent to work at Langar, England for a 5 year period, in the mid 1950's ... I was born in Melton Mowbray but returned to Canada as a toddler. Isn't life strange ...
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Carol your grandmother's name was Mary Ann. I found another article on the case and a woman witness called the child " little Mary Ann" . It is a rather large article so if you would a copy PM me your email and i'll send you it.
edited. I will see if i can post it on here as some of the information in it might help other members find out more.
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email address has been sent giblet.
Thank you!
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Just a thought from me on this very sad story, are there any newspaper reports of a child being stolen by the parents at around the time she went missing ? Surely the parents did report her missing...
Trish
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good thinking trish
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Part 1
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Part 2
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Part 3
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Hello,
I have been trying to make sure I have really searched here and don't want to give hope unnecessarily.
Family Search has a marriage for a James Hall and Harriet Fisher 1896 Ilkeston.
Earlier in 1896, there is a christening for Mary Ann Fisher - mother Harriet.
Harriet's birth is abt 1874, father George.
1901 has a single Harriet Fisher born abt 1873 :-\ living in Nottingham with daughter Alice 2 yrs. she is in the workhouse.
If this was the child, you would wonder why she wasn't restored to her mother but the mother may not have been known to the courts :-\
Heywood
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On part 2 of the article when referring to his wife he states " She and another youngster went away"
So there must be another child before Mary Ann ???
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I noted the same thing - so Mary Ann Fisher might have 2 siblings? Possibly not from the same (ugly) father.
I can't thank all of you enough for what you have pulled off here tonight. I'm blown away by all of you. This is a gut wrenching story, but it's been heavy on my shoulders for the past 10 years. I'm glad to know the truth - as ugly as it is, my Mum always said that her Mum was an angel, was one of a kind - a gentle, soft spoken, kind, considerate woman who could not have done a better job at raising her 3 children. My Mum adored her. That now warms my heart even more.
Thank you, each and every one of you, for what you have accomplished.
I have a "Fisher" in my DNA matches - I will drop her a line and see if these names mean anything to her. She's Jewish, and I was informed that part of my ancestry was Jewish, which I did not understand. Before tonight ... In her list of family ancestral names, the name "Hall" also appears.
Is there a way that I can print these newspaper clippings from this site? I just joined this group today - what an incredible group of people you are ...
I am most grateful ... tomorrow I'm going to the cemetery to place flowers on her grave.
Thank you.
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You should be able to save the attachments onto your computer Carol. A right click of the mouse on the attachment and click on "save image" Sorry they wouldnt enlarge on the email for you.
Maybe Mary Ann's birth index
Mary Ann Fisher Born Basford 7b 202 Dec Qtr of 1895
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giblet, thank you again and please, there is no need to apologize. I'm a Mac user so will see if I can sort that out. I don't want to lose the information that you have all found - I want to be able to print it out to share with my sisters, who thought that I should have given this up a long time ago. I made a promise to my Mom when I was a teenager, that someday, I will find her Mum's identity for her. Today is that day - my Mum is no longer with us, but I had to see this through - I promised her I would.
I don't know how, I don't have the words, to thank all of you, but 'thank you'.
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I do have one concern.
As it turns out Mary Ann was her correct name so was Williams her correct surname as well ??? Obviously they knew the childs name was Mary Ann so one would think they would have then known her correct surname.
Have we got the wrong birth ???
Post #6
Barnardo's named her "Mary Ann Williams" (a name that she never liked) and assigned a birthdate to her
edited. Just want to be sure every angle has been checked.
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giblet, comparing the information that was posted here this evening with the content of the Barnardo's file, I would say it's likely that Barnardo's knew her name was Mary Ann, probably from the witness in Court. The information is almost identical in both documents. The mother's name is not provided in those documents which might be why Mary Ann's family name was considered 'unknown'. I'm guessing ... and not really in the mood to defend Barnardo's, but that could explain this. "Hall" said he wasn't her father, so her family name would not have been known.
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Very complicated isnt it. The marriage for Fisher and Hall and the birth for Mary Ann do look right for dates etc, i was just wanting to check all angles had been looked at.
On my aunts records from Barnardo's some things are documented very well and others are a bit sketchy.
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It is complicated indeed. On the Family Search site, I found an "Annie M Fisher, b. 1896, Basford". I wonder if this is a younger sister.
How would I go about getting a birth certificate for my grandmother - there doesn't seem to be an exact date of birth (Mary Ann Fisher, Dec. 1895 Basford 7b 202)? Is the Dec. 1895 a christening date?
My Mum would struggle with all of this - when my Dad was transferred from Canada to work at Langar in the mid-50's, they lived in Nottingham for a while and then moved to Melton Mowbray. My sister was born in the hospital in Nottingham, which (I think) would have been the Workhouse where Harriet Fisher had been. Without ever knowing, my Mum likely walked on the same ground that her Mum had. How very strange ... and sad ...
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Mary Ann Fisher, Dec. 1895 Basford 7b 202)? Is the Dec. 1895 a christening date?
No not a baptism date but a birth registration date. They are in 3 monthly blocks.
Jan, Feb and March are in the " March Quarter"
Apr, May and June are in the " June Quarter"
July, Aug and Sept are in the " Sept Quarter"
Oct, Nov and Dec are in the " Dec Quarter"
So Mary Ann Fisher would have been born in Oct, Nov or Dec of 1895.
[From what Hall said in the article Mary Ann was 2 in the Oct before so the dates fit.]
You can order certificates through GRO online.
http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/
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It would be interesting to see if the birth date Barnardo's gave Mary Ann is the same as on the birth certificate.
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As I said 'Magic' researchers on here ;D ;D
This is a pretty awful tale!! but hopefully you will find the answers you are looking for.
In this kind of research, it is very often a good idea to ..... look sideways ....
So noting the names that have been offered. I would follow that name through any possible route, certificates and census' etc to see if it eventually leads to your Gran or to someone else.
I have often started tracing someone who I am convinced is correct only to find there are two almost identical names and ages in the same area.
So triple check and sadly you will have to buy certs that may be wrong to be able to find the correct one.
Well done :D again to all brilliant researchers on here...
This DNA you had has really shown its worth.. pm me the details of the cost etc please (for my own research :D)
As you have mentioned the quirkey times that coincidences have happened with you visiting or being in particular places that poor little 'Mary Ann' had possibly been.. is something that often happens within research like this, and for me personally means we are touching something very special that none of us really understand......... ;)
I do hope you have the strength.... (when you have ALL the darn nearest correct details) to get the story out there... It is on a par with so much that is on the shelves - I am sure it is a story of note that people NEED to see... Remember Oliver Twist...and Les Mis... I for one want to read it now........ ;D simply because it has a happy ending :) :) :)
xin
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Just a couple more notes
1901 3191 /118 /6
Harritt Fisher and Alice are in Basford Workhouse.
There doesn't seem to be much in records for relevant time, but it does mention a record of children in the workhouse. http://www.workhouses.org.uk/Basford/#Records
Family Search 1911 index shows a likely Harriett as an inmate and would be worth following up https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XWSK-YB3. There is also a 13 yr old Alice.
I do hope that this is the right family for you.
Heywood
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I have been following this thread, and commend the rootschatters who have managed to find so much. Great work!
Xinia is correct in saying it is essential to (try to) look for all other Mary Ann Fishers to see if there are others in the same timeframe and area. If not, then this adds to the probability that you have the one and only likely Mary Ann.
Harriet Fisher in the workhouse in 1901 and 1911 fits in well to paint a picture of the circumstances and I think adds weight to this being the correct family.
If anyone knows of any rootschatters who may be able to make a trip to Nottinghamshire Archives to look up the appropriate records (as per Heywood's link) could they please forward them a link to this thread. I think it would be worthwhile to get hold of the records for Harriet and Alice.
PS. A slightly belated welcome to rootschat CarolRR. :)
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Fantastic result all of you here - well done doesn't come close :)
Monica
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Absolutely amazing research guys. Such a dreadfully sad story, so glad that Carol's grandmother had a good life in the end :)
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Carol the newspaper article attachments have been removed [most likely due to copyright?] but i still have a copy of the article saved to my computer if you didnt get a chance to save them from the thread.
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That was quite a welcome to the group! I will be singing the praises of each of you here, to everyone that I know. I apologize for some of the postings last night, I became very emotional and hit 'post' a couple of times without re-reading what I wrote. You are all amazing!
I will be ordering the birth certificate today - Barnardo's assigned my grandmother a birthdate of 1st August 1895 - there is no formal 'certificate'. My grandmother entered Barnardo's on 1st March, 1898 and they indicated she was 2 1/2. I guess that is how they chose Aug. 1st ...
Before going to bed last night, I did a quick search on Harriet and found "Harriet Fisher, christened 6 Jul 1873, Whatcote, Warwick, England - parents George and Ellen". I don't plan on pursuing this right away - it took me 10 years to discover what you kind souls provided me with last night, so I'm going to sit on this for a bit. I heard back from my DNA match "Fisher" and it turns out that her ancestors went to the US in the 1600s, and she isn't sure where we connect. Her profile also indicates that she has "Hall" in her ancestral names. I have no interest, whatsoever, in knowing anything about that branch of my tree - thank God someone had the sense to report him - the Courts likely saved her life by putting her into NSPCC - the system worked for her, thank God. As for Harriet, I can't wrap my brain around her leaving her 2 year old child behind, in the care of this 'animal'. I have 2 daughters, and I don't understand. Did her children have different fathers and she disliked "Hall" so much that she didn't care about the daughter that she had with him? I'll likely never know and I don't really need to. In the grand scheme, she truly was an orphan, as reported in all of her records ...
There are many Mary Ann Fisher's in the UK in the same time-frame as my grandmother, so I think that it would be almost impossible to sort through.
There was supposedly an older child as well as Alice - my search now will be to try and find the siblings.
A very heartfelt 'thanks' to all of you - you sure know how to make someone feel welcome!!! ;)
What a great site you have here - I learned of it yesterday ... magical ...
Giblet, what was the source, and date, of the article you so kindly provided?
Again, thank you, thank you, thank you.
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Hi Carol,
Its a awful lot to take in.
The article was in the below newspaper
Leicester Chronicle and the Leicestershire Mercury (Leicester, England), Saturday, January 15, 1898;
pg. 2; Issue 4536
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Hi all,
Having been following this thread with awe.
What a story.
Well done to all the researchers for the fantastic outcome. (managed to read Giblet's posts :-X)
And Carole, best of luck with your future research if and when you decide to pursue it.
Best wishes,
Looby
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I think this https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XWSK-YB3 (subdistrict Bulwell) supplied earlier by Heywood might be the Bagthorpe Workhouse:
http://www.workhouses.org.uk/Nottingham/
(some information about it just below half way down the page)
So Harriet and Alice have been in at least two workhouses.
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Thank you Giblet - I'll try and order the article. Leicester ... as I recall, it's the next town on the rail line to Melton Mowbray. We left there, to return to Canada, crossing the Atlantic by ship, in 1958 (I was a toddler) and I later returned for a visit in 1998 ... it's tough to know that I was searching for my grandmother's identity back then, and I was right there ... :'(
There is something bigger than us with all of this ... and then this morning, a beautiful red cardinal was perched on my kitchen window-sill, looking in at me. It was a beautiful thing, and made me smile.
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Your very welcome Carol :)
Oh definitely something bigger than us.
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Hi everyone,
I really do worry that we go off on the wrong track but hopefully all this will work out as it seems to be doing.
A few pointers Carol,
You do need to look at 1911 census. There are too many Fishers in the census but there may be some clue if you find Harriet herself. There may be more children.
It would be worth trying to get some workhouse records if possible.
I wondered if the other child (don't recall that it was a older one) was a child of the other woman mentioned that Hall had taken up with.
The various certificates - Mary Ann's birth; the marriage certificate may help to confirm or exclude these people from the situation.
Re Harriet's part in all this, there may be some truth in the 'stolen' story and Harriet may not have been able to do anything against him.
Lastly, I do wish you well with all this and sincerely hope that we have solved some of the story.
heywood
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Just looking for Harriet in earlier censuses, I found this:
1891
19 Trueman (?) St
Ilkeston Derbyshire
Thomas Fisher 21 mar coal miner b Ilkeston
Harriett Fisher 21 wife b Ilkeston
William Hy Fisher 6months son b Ilkeston
RG12
Piece: 2664
Folio: 97
Page: 21
Harriet is single in later censuses so I'm not sure why she said this if she was married. What do others think? Is this the same Harriett?
Carol, you said that there was a child older than Alice and Mary Ann? I'm not sure where this information came from, but there is William Henry in the 1891 above. :-\
[ADDED LATER: I decided to amend this post rather than quote Heywood's response below and Heywood's quote and my comments to the discussion further in the thread as the discussion has moved on since I wrote the above comments last night. I note that Heywood has found the 'correct' Harriett so please ignore this 1891 census finding. If I had continued my search for this Harriet in the 1901 census I would have discovered that she is the wrong one, but I had to sign off as it was after 1am my time. That is my excuse anyway. ;)]
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This is why I try be cautious :)
1896
marriage of Hall and Harriet Fisher aged 22 years (abt 1874) -father George Fisher
1881 3325/ 100/3 has a Harriet born abt 1874 - George and Harriet
1891 2665/ 25/ 43 has a George and daughter Harriet 'Fislin' (transcription) 17 yrs (abt 1874)
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Ruskie,
Thomas, Harriet and William Hy are together in 1901 with more children.
heywood
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Thank you heywood, I appreciate your concerns. I have already ordered the birth certificate for Mary Ann Fisher, born Oct. 1895, Basford 7b 202. I wasn't aware that records could be obtained from Workhouses, I'm not familiar with that side of things - my research had ended at 'Barnardo's' doorstep. It seems that the more I learn, the less I know ...
I will pursue this, as you suggest, to ensure that I have the correct people. My gut tells me that sadly, this is my grandmother's story.
Thank you all once again - each and every one of you.
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Thank you Ruskie - if I remember correctly (I need to go back and reread the newspaper reports) there was mention that Mary Ann's mother left the proceedings, with another child. I assumed that child would have to be older than Mary Ann, but perhaps I was mistaken and it was the younger child, Alice, but I'm not certain that she would have been born at the time of the hearing in Loughborough. She (Alice) is supposedly 2 in the 1901 census (in the Workhouse).
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heywood, that's interesting. My ancestry composition is supposedly 75% Old English and Irish, and 25% German. My grandmother (Mary Ann) married a Norwegian and I had wondered if that was the "German" link. I checked my DNA matches, and I have a couple of "Heflin" matches showing as '3rd cousins' - that's pretty close to 'Fislin'?
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Carol,
it's just bad writing and poor interpretation. It does say Fisher. :)
heywood
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heywood - phew! I printed out "Fislin" and 'Heflin" and got a bit concerned that it was a possible match. My head is going in all directions, it seems. Thanks for keeping me focussed. ;)
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Post #15 "Name given as protegee to H. Myers, Esq. The Long House, Leatherhead, Surrey" - then a note added on "7.6.05 Mr. Myers wrote acknowledging child's photo".
Can this Myers fella be picked up on the 1891 or 1901 census and see who he is?
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No success re Mr Myers :(
Long House can be found by address in 1911 and Long Cottages, which seem to be different and were perhaps next to it can be seen on present day maps.
They are to be found on Church Street, Leatherhead.
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There is a Henry Myers (at "Long House" Leatherhead) showing in the Directories around the beginning of the 1900s (from at least 1906-11).
Monica
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I couldn't even find the directories ::)
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Henry MYERS was living at The Long House, Leatherhead in 1910. He was a member of The Cobden Club
http://dds.crl.edu/loadStream.asp?iid=8905
Worth searching Google books for Henry Myers at this address. :)
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Was just going to post the same info - mentions him being there in 1903.
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Was wondering whether "The Long House" - it is written this way in the directories - was a special address, connected with social welfare etc?
The Leatherhead & District Local History Society www.leatherheadlocalhistory.org.uk/2010.htm mention on that link (to do with planned talks by speakers):
The history of the Long House, Sir Frederick Milner and The Ex-Services Welfare Society and Combat Stress.
Monica
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A little more www.careuk.com/media/news-releases/history-milner-house
Reading through that link, the owner of the Long House between 1900 to c. 1926 was a Herman Klinker, a gentleman farmer and piano importer.
Monica
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Mr. Myers appears to have been involved in a very early "Free Trade" movement - I wonder if he was assisting "Dr." Barnardo in the free-trade of children across the Atlantic (and elsewhere). Perhaps he was providing some sort of financial support, like a sponsor type of arrangement? Just guessing ...
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Carol is that date 1905?
" 7.6.05 Mr. Myers wrote acknowledging child's photo
What year did Mary Ann go to Canada?
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Perhaps Mr Klinker let the house to people and Henry was there for a time.
There is a Henry Myers who progresses from Watchmaker, Jeweller and in 1901 is a Governing director.... watches... - difficult to read. In 1901 he is in Devon.
He dies in Surrey in 1946. :-\
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Giblet, the next entry shows as 6.2.09 so I am assuming it is the year. These are the only 2 entries on this page, written by hand. Beside my grandmother's name, at the top of the page, is written "No Agt".
My grandmother sailed from the UK on 25.05.1905.
So ... it appears as though Myers likely paid her passage? The Canadian Government was paying Barnardo for each and every child who landed on our shores ... not a bad scheme ...
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Giblet, the next entry shows as 6.2.09 so I am assuming it is the year. These are the only 2 entries on this page, written by hand. Beside my grandmother's name, at the top of the page, is written "No Agt".
My grandmother sailed from the UK on 25.05.1905.
So ... it appears as though Myers likely paid her passage? The Canadian Government was paying Barnardo for each and every child who landed on our shores ... not a bad scheme ...
Seems he might have had something to do with her going to Canada. If she left the UK in 1905 and he acknowledge the photo of her in 1905 as well.
I just wanted to see where he fitted into the scene and if he might have known the family before all this happened but apparently he didnt.
You hanging in there alright with us Carol? :) Your head must be spinning with all this.
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Thank you Giblet - it's exhausting, but I'm ok. I haven't looked at the Barnardo's documents in ages. I just stumbled upon a couple of journal entries made in 1909:
"Jan 14: Letter to girl enclosing letter from Norman Williams, who believes he could be her brother and asking her to write fully all she remembers of her relatives.
Jan 22: Girl writes she remembers nothing of any relatives. Was placed in home when very young. Unsure if boy referred to is really her brother."
Her reply to this "Norman Williams" brings me some peace, as she states that she remembers nothing. Her first child, my Mom, was named "Norma" ... I often wondered if this was where her name came from.
So sad.
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Isn't that just so sad - wondering if he is her brother!
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Heywood, his sister was "Mary Williams". We now know that my grandmother was not Mary Ann Williams, but Mary Ann Fisher. Barnardo's assigned her the name "Williams" when she entered their 'home' in 1898.
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Carol,
What a wonderful thread this has turned out to be - rivetting.
Just to add a comment about Barnardo's "sponsors". My GF's half-sister ended up in Barkingside in 1905 and within months was shipped to Canada. She was the 'protegee' of a lady resident in New Zealand so you may find that there is nothing of any relevance to connect Mr Myers other than being a supporter of Barnardo's.
Good luck with your further research.
Alan
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Heywood, his sister was "Mary Williams". We now know that my grandmother was not Mary Ann Williams, but Mary Ann Fisher. Barnardo's assigned her the name "Williams" when she entered their 'home' in 1898.
I just meant it was sad that he was wondering if he was her brother - my meaning wasn't perhaps clear. :)
I found Mary Ann Fisher, if you recall. ;)
Do you have her in 1901 759/ 96/23 - Is this her?
Hollanden Farm, Hildenborough, Kent
William Owen 63 yrs Closing for Cricket Ball maker b Kent
Mary Owen 58 yrs Foster mother b Kent
Mary J Owen daur 29 yrs paralysed from childhood b Kent
Thomas H Owen son 23 yrs Canvasser and Collector Prudential Assurance b Kent
John A Lewis Nurse child 3 yrs Dr Barnados Home b England
Mary A Williams Nurse child 5 yrs Dr Barnados Home b England
Susan M Attenbury Nurse child 2 yrs Dr Barnados Home b England
George Crumplin Nurse child 8 months Dr Barnados Home b England
heywood
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I could cry for you and your Grandma. I looked up Barnardo's Stepney and their Home Child info. Obviously you already have this. It is so very sad. I am sure all the chatters on here will do all they can to help you.
Fingers crossed something will turn up.
Susan
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Heywood :) I just wanted to make sure that the names were not being mingled together. I know that I do not refer to my grandmother using "Williams" so I just wanted to be perfectly clear on that surname. I have not, and will not, forget your contribution to all of this! ;) It is sad that families were separated - children looking for their siblings is heart-breaking. Many of them did lose contact, sadly.
My grandmother spent approx. 6 years with the Owens family. She was 'fostered' there a week after entering Barnardo's Receiving House, and she remained there until December of 1904 (Mrs. Owens became to ill to care for her and my grandmother was returned to Barnardo's) and she then sailed to Canada in May of 1905. I do have a copy of the actual entry of the 1901 census - thank you for finding it. Since receiving my DNA results, I was beginning to question this whole Barnardo's story because "Owens" is the most popular/frequent name in my list of DNA matches - it is still bothersome.
Alanmack, thank you.
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Carol,
I am so happy for you and for the superb job these miracle workers have done. They are wonderful. I do hope you can put al this down together into a book. It is so interesting, sad and what a journey. Let us know the outcome of the birth certificate.
Just raised my bottle of water to your Mary Ann and Mum. God rest them.
Blessings to you
Susan
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Giblet, I think you would be allowed to post a transcription of the newspaper article, if you are willing to transcribe such a long article? It might help if others could refer to it. I am assuming it was removed due to it being a cut and paste/copyright issue. Maybe a moderator could advise.
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Susan Hemmings, thank you for your kind words and support. Cheers.
Giblet, thankfully only a very small selection of your posts were canned. ;)
You are all magical and I feel so deeply indebted to all of you.
Bless each and every one of you.
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I have already started on it Ruskie :) On my trusty lap top in front of the telly typing away ;D
:oCarol another late night for you!
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I have already started on it Ruskie :) On my trusty lap top in front of the telly typing away ;D
:oCarol another late night for you!
I'm sure all of those who've just joined this thread will be very interested to read it. It is very informative and essential to understanding the situation Mary Ann was in. :)
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Ok ... I was advised to look sideways ... I tend to follow instructions from wisely wizards ...
My DNA match - "Fisher" - who also showed "Hall" in her family matches, gave me access to her family tree. Her "Hall" connection comes through her "Potter" line, which is another of my most common DNA family names, and I don't have a clue where they come in to the picture. I went through her 'tree' and discovered a "Susan Ellen Hall" born 1845-1890, married a "Daniel Potter, born 1834-1901 and they had a child "Herman Jahue Potter", born 1873-1937. "Herman J Potter married "Edith Keith", born 1876-1973 and had a child "Claude Potter" born 1896-1989.
So ... is Claude Potter a 1st cousin of Mary Ann Fisher - through James Hall??? Is Susan Ellen Hall the sister of 'him'???
No locations are provided, only names and dates. Sorry.
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I have already started on it Ruskie :) On my trusty lap top in front of the telly typing away ;D
:oCarol another late night for you!
I'm sure all of those who've just joined this thread will be very interested to read it. It is very informative and essential to understanding the situation Mary Ann was in. :)
It is informative and if its on the thread another member might pick something up in it that we might have missed.
I'll be quiet for a bit and keep typing :o
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Forgive me, my mind is turning to mush. I'm looking at this "Fisher" family tree that has both "Potter" and "Hall" on her maternal side, and her paternal side has "William Fisher" born 1859-1921, married Nellie Keeney, born 1880-1969. William Fisher's father was "Ezra Fisher", b. 1835-1899, his father was also "Ezra Fisher", b. 1800-1874.
Is this a case of a sister and brother (Susan and James Hall) both marrying into the same family? Susan married Daniel Potter and James married Harriet Fisher? I'm so confused ... perhaps a cup of tea might help ... or something much, much stronger ... "Potter" is my 4th most popular DNA match.
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Giblet, I meant to add yet another 'thank you' for your help with this - I'm glad that you're comfy and wish that I could help you.
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I'm not sure what others would advise, but although it is tempting due to the surnames, I would not try to make the DNA family tree fit with "your"(?) Hall and Fisher. Would you be able to contact the tree owner to find out whereabouts the DNA tree's Hall, Fisher and Potters originate? A tree should show places as well as names and dates. :-\
Maybe the best step would be to make up a family tree of "your"(?) Hall and Fisher and then see if they can be matched up anywhere with the existing tree containing similar names.
Lots of coincidences though. :)
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I agree Ruskie.
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See how we go this time ;D Hope i didnt leave anything out.
Saturday, January 15, 1898
GROSS CRUELTY TO A CHILD AT LOUGHBOROUGH
HUNG UP BY STRAPS
CRAMMED IN A CUPBOARD
At the Loughbourough petty sessions on Wednesday before Mr S Wells [in the chair]The Mayor Ald Tidd, Messers U Goodacre, P Winsor, J G Shields, James Hall, labourer no fixed address was charged by Inspector Barnes, NSPCC with cruelly ill treating a female child, aged 2 years on November 14. Mr H J Deane prosecuted for the society and said this was not a case of cruelty by neglect or indifference of parents but one of actual violence by the prisioner. This child was 2 years old and no relation to the prisoner as far as could be ascertained nor of the woman whom he cohabited. But he had the custardy of the child and was responsible for her. He had been tramping between Loughborough, Leicester, and Derby, and at varous times he and the woman had stayed at the Model Lodging House Loughborough and on several occasions he had treated the child with great cruelty. This culminated on Fair Saturday and Sunday when he treatment of the girl was so bad that the female deputy at the lodging house complained to the police. The prisoner left the town the same day and was arrested on a warrant on Tuesday last. After describing the acts of cruelity which would be proved by the witness Mr Deane said he thought the bench would have no hesitation in coming to the conclusion that this was a case in which a penalty should be inflicted as would show the prisioner and men like him that even children who did not belong to them could not be treated as this child had been,.
Martha Haywood female deputy at the Model said that on Fair Saturday about noon she saw the prisioner kick the child against the sink causing a bruise on the forehead the size of a half crown. On Sunday witness saw him hang the child up by a belt around her waist from a nail in the beam. It hung there for five minutes face down afraid to cry and witness added " The child is in court and full of measles as it can be" Prisoner - Its only a cold it got the last day or two.- Witness, continuing said there is a small cupboard in the kitchen. and witness had seen him push the child into it, doubling up its head and limbs to get it in. He kept it there for tow hours. On varous occasions witness had heard in the bedroom occupied by the man, woman and child, a sound as of a strap had been used and a child crying.
Mr Winsor- Were there no other people present when he did all this? - Yes.- And they did not try to stop him? - It seemed to amuse them.
The Magisstrate's Clerk ; Didnt you people want to take it out? - The misses of the lodging house fetched it out but he repeated it. Witness had repeatedly stopped the man from ill treating the child. - Prisoner: I could get into the cupboard myself.
Ellen Marshall, wife of Herbert Marshall living near the Model said that on Fair Saturday November 13 the child fell down in the kitchen the prisioner slapped it for falling. He followed it to the yard, kicked it in the back, and it fell against the sink, wounding its forehead. Prisioner took it back into the house and made it lie on a form saying if it got up he would kill it. The child lay still for a while and then moved, the prisoner slapped it, and made it lie down again. The man was quiet sober on these occasions.
Mary Sheriff, who said she was 78 last October, and walked all the way to Whitwick on Tuesday and had been fetched back by police was the next witness. At the fair time she said she was staying at the Model and knew the prisioner and the woman with him and the child " little Mary Ann". Witness went on to describe how she saw prisoner turn his wife out and put the baby on the floor. Then he took the little baby put a strap under her little jaws and around her head and hung her up for two or three minutes. After that he put her little hands together and tied the strap around them and hung her up again. The other people in the room had a hearty good laugh but witness hid her face in her hands and could not look.
Inspector Agar, deposed that ? ?? the prisoner on a warrant on Tuesday at the ? Lodging House. He told him what the charge was and prisioner said - " Who's going to give me away?" Witness said he thought the old woman was going to give evidence against him. Prisoner remarked " Thats after giving her two two-pennorths.
Inspector Barnes said he had measured the cupboard referred to and found it was 13 inches deep, 12 inches wide, 27 inches long. It would be impossible to get the child in without doubling its knees up to its head. The cupboard was by the side of the fireplace where a roaring fire was always on the way and it would be very hot. It was used for drying fire wood. Witness saw the man's wife in Loughbourgh three weeks ago looking for him, and she told him that they purchased the child at Derby for the purpose of getting their living by it and it did not belong to the prisoner.
Prisoner was proceeding to dispute this statement when the Magistrate's clerk remarked it was not evidence against him and he would be wise not to ask questions as to make it evidence.
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Prisoner said that about 2 years ago he cohabited with the child's mother at Ilkeston and married her when the child was two or three months old. He had been with her ever since till last December when they come to Loughbourgh. The wife of his was going about town with another man and he thought it was time to " get shut of her" as quick as he could. She and another youngster went away and prisoner had always had this baby girl with him. He had never done anything wrong to it and it always had plenty to eat and a bed to go to.
Florence Lea said she was keeping company with the prisoner. She had never seen him ill use the child during the three months she had been with him. It is not true he hung her up with a strap or kicked her. The affair in the yard was when she fell against the sink and cut her forehead.
By Mr Deane:- She come to Loughborough at the beginning of the fair and made prisoners acquaintance at the Model, and went away with him on Sunday and has been with him ever since.
The Bench convicted and the Chairman said they considered it a very gross case of cruelty. Prisoner would go to goal for ten weeks - hard labour.
Mr Deane applied that the child should be sent to the Workhouse till instructions had been received from the society as to its custody.
The Clerk said the bench had no power to make a order of that kind after the father had been convicted.
The Deputy Chief Constable however stating that the woman Lea was not willing to take charge of the child, Mr Bosworth said the relieving officier would have to see to it. The court would not need to make any order...
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That is an epic giblet! ;D What a lot of work but I'm sure it will be worth it. (I'm going to read it again).
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If they "can" this one giblet will not be real happy ;D
I feel it needs to be on the thread for members to understand the whole story, and it has names and dates etc as well. It all helps when searching.
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Have been following this through since first posted. Fantastic effort giblet to type this out. Read the original article.
The person who identifies the child by Mary Ann is one of the witnesses, 78 year old Mary Sheriff. She does mention that she knew the man and the woman with the child. Does this mean that she knew them prior to the couple and Mary Ann staying at the Model? Don't know if this is worth following up.
Kaybron
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I too have been following this thread and watching the story unfold due to the efforts of the magical rootschatters. I would like to make a suggestion that a thorough Timeline is developed recording all dates,places and people as sometimes even "gaps" in the story need following up. In an earlier life, I used to work in child protection, logging every bit of information on each case.
The newspaper report is quite thorough, and unlike modern times, names are reported. To be reported at such length indicates the seriousness of the court case as viewed by the community - even the Mayor is named. The court case is really about bringing Hall to account. It is likely that the community (and Protection Agencies) would have cared about "What happens to Mary Ann" well beyond this court case.
Best wishes, Gazania
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If they "can" this one giblet will not be real happy ;D
I feel it needs to be on the thread for members to understand the whole story, and it has names and dates etc as well. It all helps when searching.
It will be OK this time, because it's a transcription by giblet.
If anyone owns the copyright, it's giblet!
The problem before was the copyright of the images; NOT the information contained in those images.
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How moving. :'(
I was a NSPCC and Barnardo child from the age of 9 months.
I had great difficulty gaining information from the NSPCC who at first refused me
access to it, I fought them though, and it explained the situation of being under
their care and the documents were at the Local Record Office.
I know this is a different time period but is it a place that has been tried.
Sandy
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Hi all,
Having been following this thread with awe.
What a story.
Well done to all the researchers for the fantastic outcome. (managed to read Giblet's posts :-X)
And Carole, best of luck with your future research if and when you decide to pursue it.
Best wishes,
Looby
And then giblet's posts got canned ;D
Good to read it again Giblet. It was good of you to transcribe it and let everyone get the full picture.
Congratulations to all those who have worked on this thread.
Looby
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Only just managed to catch up on this very moving and heartbreaking story and well done to all the marvellous researchers who are doing such a wonderful job helping Carol. Giblet has certainly gone the extra mile with the typing!!
Carol - I'm so pleased that at last you are getting closer to understanding your Grandmother's sad story. I can well understand the emotion you feel. Welcome to RootsChat by the way. :)
King regards,
Maggie
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Will someone check over this please.
This may be Mary Ann but there is still room for doubt with timings and statements.
Oct-Dec 1895. Mary Ann Fisher birth Basford
29th January 1896 Mary Ann Fisher baptised Ilkeston. Mother is Harriet Fisher
7th March 1896 Marriage of James Hall and Harriet Fisher
13/14 November 1897 Loughborough Fair
Hall says he was with his wife from his marriage until the fair.
She went off with another man at the fair.
She and another youngster went away. It does not say it is her child.
Abt December 1897 wife was looking for him and said they had purchased the child at Derby
It did not belong to him. Hall disputed this.
Florence Lea with him since then.
I can't see a Mary Sheriff.
Heywood
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Well done giblet. Thank you for the write up.
I wonder what would have happened to "Mr Hall" today. He would certainly have got a good wallop in jail. It is awful that people in court found the happenings amusing. ???
Wonder where he went with Ms Lea. I hope he had a rotton life after this.
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Mary Sheriff was the 78 yo witness.
I, too, have been following this thread since reading OP with coffee about 46 hours ago.
So here is my "2 bobs worth"
Regarding the Christian name "Mary Ann"
1. James Hall (in newspaper report) refers to the child as "it" - never a name.
2. It occurs to me that, upon Hall's arrest, the child would have been taken into care and it COULD have been that the caregivers (having no knowledge of a name) gave the child the christian name then and there. After all they have to be able to call the child something....
3. By the time this gets to court, Mary Sheriff the witness refers to the child as "little Mary Ann" as that is how the court is referring to the child .... But this is a recent name bestowed on the child by recent caregivers since the arrest of Hall ......
I don't want to be a wet blanket as you have all done such wonderful work :-[
I am also intrigued about the "given" surname of "Williams".
And another query, possibly legal, but would there be leniency given to a perpetrator if the abuse was to their own child as opposed to abuse to a child "purchased" (as one person in the court alleges). Hall is a nasty piece of work and I can't see that he is likely to be truthful - just interested in saving his own skin.
The punishment given to Hall is laughable.
Amazingly sad and horrific case of child abuse.
This Mary Sheriff is someone, I think, that is worth looking into as well
Cocksie
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It is awful that people in court found the happenings amusing.
The court did not find it amusing. Rather the witness to the abuse was indicating that she saw the abuse and that others who were present thought that the abuse of the child by Hall was amusing. The witness states she, herself, could not watch the abuse.
Cocksie
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Just rang Derby Record Office they have no holdings for the NSPCC.
TNA have an address as records now of line, yet contact details listed.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0tyy/
Sandy
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I have looked for Mary Sherriff as she says she knew them. Her age should help and also she mentions Whitwick. I hope someone can find her.
There are Halls in that area but the James is married in 1901 and a coal miner - nothing to indicate anything untoward.
I also think we should err on the side of caution. It is emotional but were the witnesses or evidence totally reliable? We just don't know. The sentence seems very lenient even though it is hard labour.
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Am in process of trawling newspapers later to see if there is any further mention of the case etc. have also reread posts carefully :-X and can now see clearly the ickleston old church marriage and month etc and how Fisher surname of mother was established.
Must learn to read closely and retain information
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Regarding the Christian name "Mary Ann"
1. James Hall (in newspaper report) refers to the child as "it" - never a name.
Copied above from cocksie's post :).
I don't think it was unusual for people (either beggars or those in authority) and the press at this time to refer to a child as 'it'. During my own research into an incident in my family c.1885, a child is repeatedly referred to in the news report as 'it' and in fact the sex of the child is not even mentioned :(.
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Thanks cocksie.
I need to read it in the sense it is written - not what I think I see!
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Am in process of trawling newspapers later to see if there is any further mention of the case etc.
This was such a serious case it makes you wonder if he committed other offences.
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Hi
What a heart rendering story, and every one involved in this, deserves a medal, I am not sure how far Carol want's to go on this, but I sure the Media would be interested in this, you never know there maybe someone out there, that may have some handed down information that could help.
So if there is anyone on Roots that is involved in the Media your thought's on this
Margp
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Giblet - I can't thank you enough for all that you have done, and continue to do. You have all touched my heart. The article is very difficult, I try to detach, emotionally, while reading it but find that I don't do a very good job of it, so I have to read it over and over for the actual details to sink in. It pains my heart. I will try and get a copy of the article from Leicester. Giblet, again, I don't have the words to express my gratitude to you - thank you, sincerely.
For some reason, I had computer problems last night - pages wouldn't load, wouldn't send, etc., so I gave up, frustrated beyond belief, and went to bed ... and slept!
I have decided to put the DNA "Fisher" link on the back burner as I realize that I need more recent ancestry info. My match with this "Fisher" lady could be many generations back, as her Hall's, Potter's, and Fisher's (there is a Harriet) were all born in the 1800s, in the US. My wind swirls ... So I am putting that aside for now, and focussing on what is in front of me (or almost).
Thank you 'chatters' for biting into this story to the extent that you have. I look forward to the day that the specifics of this story won't feel so raw.
I found a Harriet Fisher, b. 1873, christened 6 Jul 1873 in Whatcote, Warwick. I'll focus on finding her and hopefully her other children.
Thanks again to all!
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Its a lot to take in Carol and your thread isnt going anywhere so take your time working your way through it all.
It's a story that has touched a lot of hearts!
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So I am putting that aside for now, and focussing on what is in front of me (or almost).
Thank you 'chatters' for biting into this story to the extent that you have. I look forward to the day that the specifics of this story won't feel so raw.
I found a Harriet Fisher, b. 1873, christened 6 Jul 1873 in Whatcote, Warwick. I'll focus on finding her and hopefully her other children.
Thanks again to all!
Hi Carol,
I do feel for you and understand that it is something which I am sure is overwhelming at times.
I just want to clarify your search for Harriet, however.
We can't yet connect all these found people with your grandmother, I know, but going from the 'evidence' of the trial, there is something known.
James Hall married in Ilkeston not long before the trial. He was working locally so presumably/possibly married a local girl.
Just to reiterate:
Family Search has the marriage - James Hall to Harriet Fisher https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NN8H-4XG
There are other James Hall marriages in llkeston but not quite within the given time frame.
Harriet's father is named as George and her birthdate is given about 1874.
1881 census has a Harriet born 1874 Ilkeston with parents George and Harriet.
I would say she is a more likely candidate than the Warwickshire one but also it may be the wrong James Hall etc.
best wishes
heywood
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I can't remember who posted the information earlier (sorry), but regarding the marriage of James Hall and Harriet Fisher, someone said Harriett's age was 22 yrs, and her father was George. Does the same record give James Hall's age and father's name?
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Hugs, Giblet.
"Fisher" appears to be quite a common surname in the geographical area we are looking at, with some of them being very prominent.
If anyone has birth (registry) information for Alice Fisher, born 1899(?) in Basford and/or John Fisher, b. 1906 in Basford, I will order their birth certificates.
Thanks.
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I can't remember who posted the information earlier (sorry), but regarding the marriage of James Hall and Harriet Fisher, someone said Harriett's age was 22 yrs, and her father was George. Does the same record give James Hall's age and father's name?
Ok forget that. I see from the link posted by heywood, that he is 20 and his father is William. :)
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Heywood, thanks for posting the link for the marriage registration, I hadn't seen it so am happy to have a copy of it - thank you.
I think it's important to remember that James Hall was shown as having 'no fixed address' and was known to be a beggar who tramped the area from Derby to Leicester to Northampton.
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Hi there,
Going off on a slight tangent here. After reading the newspaper article again I thought I'd try and find Martha Haywood the female deputy of the model lodging house on the Census (only one I have access to on Freecen is 1891)
There is a Martha Haywood aged 25 with no occupation listed living with her husband and daughter in Loughborough with the place of birth Ilkeston . Could it be she had a connection with Hall?
Looby
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Hugs, Giblet.
"Fisher" appears to be quite a common surname in the geographical area we are looking at, with some of them being very prominent.
If anyone has birth (registry) information for Alice Fisher, born 1899(?) in Basford and/or John Fisher, b. 1906 in Basford, I will order their birth certificates.
Thanks.
Free BMD has these births:
Alice May Fisher March 1898 Shardlow 7b 521 **probably not her as there is one in the Shardlow district in 1901.
Alice Hall March 1899 Basford 7b 220
John Fisher December 1905 Nottingham 7b 410
John Fisher March 1906 Basford 7b 236
John Henry Fisher March 1906 Basford 7b 163
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Carol, James Hall siad he was working at Stanton Ironworks Company when he married, so he may not always have been a beggar.
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Heywood - many thanks!
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Ruskie, you're right - thanks for pointing that out. In my mind, he will always be a beggar.
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Ruskie, you're right - thanks for pointing that out. In my mind, he will always be a beggar.
Think you mis-spelled that last word?!?! ;D ;D :-X
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It was suggested earlier that a timeline might be helpful.
Heywood has put some of facts together and asked for it to be checked. I have based my timeline on this (let me know if not OK and I will remove/rephrase) and I have added some additonal information.
It is far from complete and I'm sure I have missed some things and added others which are not needed, so feel free to add, subtract and change whatever you wish.
If you would like me to modify my post I am happy to do so (but only for 24 hours as after this time we lose the ability to modify our posts).
Alternatively, if anyone wishes to use/change this to a better format, please feel free.
This is just the information that rootschatters have gathered so far - and relationships are unproven.
c 1874 - Harriett Fisher born Ilkeston Derbyshire, father George
c 1876 - James Hall born
1881 census - 3325/100/3 Harriet born abt 1874 - parents George and Harriet
1891 census - 2665/ 25/ 43 George and daughter Harriet (surname transcribed as) Fislin 17 yrs (b abt 1874)
1895 - Oct-Dec Mary Ann Fisher birth Basford
1896 - 29th January - Mary Ann Fisher baptised Ilkeston. Mother is Harriet Fisher
1896 - 7th March - Marriage in Ilkeston of James Hall (age 20 years, father William) married Harriet Fisher (age 22 yrs, father George) [GRO ref Basford 7b 205 Mar.Qtr 1896]
1897 - 13/14 November Loughborough Fair - James Hall committed cruelty to child.
Hall says he was with his wife from his marriage until the fair.
She went off with another man at the fair.
She and another youngster went away.
1897 - About December - Hall's wife was looking for him and said they had purchased the child at Derby. It did not belong to him. Hall disputed this. Hall said child was 2 years old October last. He said he married the mother at Ilkeston Old Church when the child was a few months old. He was
then working at Stanton Ironworks Company
1898 - 12th January - the case against James Hall was heard at Loughboro' Petty Sessions and he was sentenced to ten week's hard labour. Custody of Mary Ann given to NSPCC.
1898 - Saturday January 15th - Newspaper article of trial published in Leicester Chronicle and the Leicestershire Mercury (Leicester, England), Saturday, January 15, 1898;
pg. 2; Issue 4536. Also a smaller article published in the Nottinghamshire Guardian on same date
1898 - 1st March - Mary Ann entered Barnardos in Stepney Causeway - Age 2 1/2 years)
1901 census - Harriet Fisher, single born abt 1873 living in Nottingham with daughter Alice 2 yrs. She is in the Basford workhouse.3191 /118 /6 (mistranscribed as Harritt Fisher)
1901 census - Mary Ann (with new surname Williams), a 5 year old nurse child, Dr Barnardos Home, is with the Owen family - 759/ 96/23 living in Kent
1904 - December - Mary Ann returned to Barnados because Mrs Owens was too ill to care for her.She had been fostered by the Owens family for 6 years.
1905 - 25th May - Mary Ann sailed to Canada
1909 - Jan 14 - Mary Ann receives a letter from Norman Williams, who believes he could be her brother and asking her to write fully all she remembers of her relatives.
Jan 22: Mary Ann said she remembers nothing of any relatives and was placed in home when very young.
1911 census - Harriett Fisher is an inmate in Bagthorpe Workhouse, with 13 year old Alice Fisher and 6 year old John Fisher. Harriet is a charwoman b Ilkeston.
1919 - Deaths Mar quarter
Fisher Harriett age 45 Nottingham vol 7b page 444
(not confirmed)
This is not part of the timeline, but I thought it might be worth including the following interesting finds by gpixie and Susan, which may or may not be the correct families. I have just added them here as this thread is getting very long and here they will be easy to find if needed at a later date:
A family tree on Ancestry has:
Mary J Fisher - parents George and Harriett - born in Ilkeston, Derbyshire 1862
and a sister Harriett born 1874 (Please note: no sources are given)
Mary J married brothers -
Samual Hall 1858 to 1891 and
Arthur Hall born 1869 Riddings, Derbyshire. Samual and Arthur's father is William, mother is Ann Froggatt.
The father William, was a labourer in an iron works on 1871 census. When James Hall married Harriet Fisher in 1895, his said his father was William. [What were the occupations of both father and son on the marriage certificate?] James Hall claimed at his trial that when he marriet Mary Ann's mother he worked at the Stanton Ironworks Company.
In 1881 William is still working as an Ironworks labourer as are his sons. There is no sign of a James Hall with this family.
William was born in Leicester, the family lived in Derby. All these places tie in with where James Hall is said to have been tramping.
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Thank you Ruskie!
I will just point out that it appears that at the conclusion of the Loughboro' Petty Sessions hearing (Jan. 12th), custody of my grandmother was given to the NSPCC. She was in their care until she entered Barnardo's, in Stepney Causeway, on March 1st, 1898.
I have a letter from 'Head of Child Protection Awareness', NSPCC, London, dated 14 May 2002 stating that "having carried out a check of our Legal Archives we are unable to find any case records relating to your grandmother". I was frustrated when I received this reply, but now realize, in hindsight, that they would have been searching for information pertaining to a "Mary Ann Williams".
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Great summary and timeline, Ruskie :)
It would be good to keep your timeline as the main summary now as the thread has got so long. If there are further additions or changes after 24 hrs to this timeline, perhaps I can make the edits for you on it to keep it fresh and update. Let me know if this is the case and you want me to this (also in case I miss any update).
Monica
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What a sad story. Well done to everyone who has helped.
Carol, I'm in Canada as well, Ontario actually. I love to help families of the home children. I was wondering if you sent an email to Barnardo's home asking them about information on Mary Ann Fisher? I have a contact there, I can send you her email, she is very helpful and has gotten back to me quite quickly in the past.
Karen
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KarenM, hi there neighbour (I'm in Ont as well) and thank you for your comments. My grandmother ended up in Fenelon Falls and then St. Mary's, Ont. I was deeply involved with the BHC group back in the days of Perry Snow. It was thanks to that group that I have my grandmother's Barnardo's file and now it appears (thanks to this amazing group) that I finally have the answers with respect to my grandmother's true identity, which I have been searching for all these years. I am very fortunate and count my blessings for having come across such kind, compassionate and competent people as I made my way through all of this.
Barnardo's only knew my grandmother as "Mary Ann Williams" and they did send me a great deal of information about her life while under their care. I don't feel that there is any benefit in contacting them again - my grandmother's 'birth name' won't be in any of their records - they have already indicated that they knew nothing of her very early years.
Thank you for the suggestion though, I do appreciate it. I am a member of the BHC Facebook group. ;)
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Perry Snow did amazing work for the Home Children. I always tell people on the facebook groups to check out Rootschat :)
Did you grandmother marry Mr. Olsen?
Karen
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KarenM, yes, Perry put a lot into that effort - I transcribed some of the ship passenger-lists for him. My grandmother came to Ottawa to study nursing when she met my Norwegian grandfather - the most kind, soft-spoken, gentle man I have ever known (maybe I should move to Norway) - they married and raised 3 children. You have inside information... ;) yes, Mr. Olsen.
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A maybe for a death for Harriet ???
Deaths Mar quarter 1919
Fisher Harriett age 45 Nottingham vol 7b page 444
A great time line Ruskie :)
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Wow Giblet - that's very interesting, I wonder ... there doesn't seem to be much in the way of longevity in that gene pool - my grandmother passed away at 51 or 52. Hmmm ... I am happy to say that my Mom lived to be 84.
Thank you yet again Giblet - what type of information is included on a death certificate at that point in time?
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As on any cert. a lot of information on certs. depends on what the informant of death knew. Exactly whats on a English cert. in that time frame i dont know. One of our English members will be able to advise you.
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Place, date and cause of death, and if you are lucky the informant who may be a relative, it sometime states wife of or widow of
Margp
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Been following this fascinating story with interest.
This is what should appear on a death cert ,but as has been said you will only get the correct info if the informant knew it.
http://home.clara.net/dixons/Certificates/deaths.htm
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My apologies Giblet - I have this sense that you're 'right there' and forget that you're not ...
If this is the right Harriet, her son would have only been 14 when she died. Another interesting similarity ... when my grandmother passed away, her youngest daughter was 13.
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Hi Carol,
Not sure if this is relevant but I've found a family tree on Ancestry listing a Mary J Fisher with parents George and Harriett born in Ilkeston, Derbyshire 1862. It also lists a sister for her - Harriett born 1874 though there are no indications of the sources for this information which is important to keep in mind.
Interestingly it says Mary J married two brothers; Samual Hall 1858 to 1891 and Arthur Hall born 1869 Riddings, Derbyshire. Samual and Arthur's father is listed as William and mother is Ann Froggatt.
Just though I would mention as a possible link to investigate? There appear to be living relatives descended from this tree.
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Thank you MargP and Carol - I would hope that her children would have been able to fill in those blanks on the certificate - I will order it this evening.
Thanks again Giblet.
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gpixie - oh my! Fascinating! Was James Hall's mother's name showing anywhere? I don't recall seeing it. What a mess this is (sounds like my Fisher-Potter-Hall fiasco). 2 sisters marrying 2 (3!) brothers?
Living relatives ... my stomach has flipped
I do appreciate this find gpixie, thank you.
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That's a find.
I noticed the father, William, was a labourer in an iron works on 1871 census. Can this tie in with his occupation given on James and Harriet's wedding certificate/record in 1895 (I cannot find it or the baptism of Mary Ann for love or money)
Well done
on 1881 William is still working as an Ironworks labourer as are his sons). If I remember correctly (from Ruskie's excellent timeline) that James also worked in the Iron foundary. No sign of him (James) on 1881 census with family.
Worth noting that William born in Leicester, family lived in Derby and I cannot remember the other place James tramped into and out of but it seems to make sense of his tramping round with these familial places they inhabited.
Edited: Why am I so excited about Leicester. Sorry, got my underwear in a twist. Too late and I am too old!
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When googling William Hall and Ann Froggatt quiet a bit comes up. Could be worth checking out.
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I also have unexplained DNA matches (cousins) in Australia
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I also have unexplained DNA matches (cousins) in Australia
Yes apparently you do ;D
A great grandchild of William Hall and Ann Froggatt is in Australia.
Not sure if im allowed to post this link ... A mod will remove it if im not ;D
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/DERBYSGEN/2004-07/1090404305
edited..
Well that was a really stupid reply i posted :-[ You may not have come from the Hall side of things :-\
note to myself : Think before putting mouth in gear giblet :-[ or rather fingers on keyboard.
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I have been following this amazing thread & well done to all who have found so much in such a short time.
Sorry, but I'm a little worried about the tree on Ancestry for the Fisher family. The time line that Ruskie has written out contains the 1881 census for George Fisher, Coal Miner aged 44 born Ilkeston, his wife Harriet age 49 born Cotmanhay & their daughter Harriet aged 7 born Ilkeston. living at 11 Charlotte Street. The 1871 has George, wife Harriet & a daughter MARY ANN age 10 living at Charlotte Street.
From Family Search there is a marriage for a Mary Ann Fisher to a John Scattergood 4th June 1884 at Cotmanhay. Her father was George.
I see another family on the 1881 for another George & Harriet Fisher with a daughter Mary Jane but they are in Nottingham not Ilkeston. :-\
Would welcome other opinions please.
Maddie
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The difficulty is that the surnames here are quite common in the localities and sometimes repeat the same first names.
It is perhaps best to try to establish that these are the right people through certificates.
Mary Ann Fisher's birth certificate will confirm re Harriet (which seems to be ok anyway).
The marriage certificate of James Hall and Harriet may help to identify him in records through his father's occupation.
Any other birth certificates for Harriet's children will add to the picture.
Harriet's death certificate would perhaps be a closure for this sad episode in England.
Hopefully, there may be some more information coming from the Workhouse records.
At the time of Mary Ann's foster care and journey to Canada, her origins were unknown. There may be some clues in any workhouse records.
heywood
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:D Double note to myself then.
The tree discovered by gpixie is fascinating. References to people born and died in Oz. Nearly 2000 people on the tree. Hall branch goes back via a Danvers surname to 1500s. Phew. Caution before proceeding obviously.
As Giblet says you may not descend from Hall, but Harriet Fisher is there. Unless of course it is totally wrong as Maddie says. Time and certified confirmation will tell.
Hope you can get access to it Carol, just for a peek if nothing else.
This is such a fascinating and painful thread. It is so wonderful to see the hard work done by the magicians on this forum. It is like a flowers petals unfurling in the sunlight. :)
Giblet, forgot to thank you for the typed up transcription.
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A little more, the 1901 census finds John Scattergood aged 37 a coal miner (hewer) born Ilkeston, wife Mary A aged 38 born Ilkeston & a daughter Harriet aged 8 also Ilkeston living at Lower Granby Street Ilkeston. Piece 3150 folio 87 page 19.
Added, I do agree with heywood, hopefully some of this info will help in one way or another.
Maddie
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Giblet, I have a total of 31 DNA relative matches in Australia, which I cannot explain. I'm not prepared, just yet, to pursue those matches. One of them has "Hall" in her list of ancestral names.
I have ordered Harriet Fisher's death certificate and Mary Ann Fisher's birth certificate. Do I have the necessary information to order the marriage certificate of James Hall and Harriet Fisher? I have been keeping notes but don't see the GRO required info. anywhere. I noticed Harriet's children are showing as: Alice "Hall" Mar 1899 Basford 7b 220 and John Fisher, Mar 1906 Basford 7b 236 and another John Henry Fisher, Mar 1906 Basford 7b 163 and finally John Fisher Dec 1905 Nottingham 7b 410. Is it odd that Alice goes by "Hall" and not "Fisher" - I don't want to mess up the application for birth certificate with incorrect information.
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Well done Carol. It will be interesting to see what transpires.
I could not find a marriage for James and Harriett anywhere that confirmed their respective ages or father's names. I only have access to Ancestry so that is probably why.
Good luck. Fingers crossed Carol. Blessings to you.
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susan hemmings, thank you for your kindness, and your help.
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FISHER Harriet Basford.7b 205 Q1 1896
HALL James Basford.7b 205 Q1 1896
Think this is what you need Carol.
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What can I say such a sad & heart wrenching story and such wonderful researchers on this site who are giving "their all" to solve this mystery .I will add just a few points that maybe of interest.
In the 1901 Census for Harriet Fisher in Basford Nottinghamshire, GPIXIE Post 136 mentioned the surname FROGATT. There is a Mary Ann Frogatt age 41 Born Shipley Derbyshire Inmate, Joseph Frogatt age 12 Born Shipley Notts, John Frogatt age 15 born Shipley Notts in the same institution - just wondering connection if any!!! Also the Tree that GPIXIE mentioned Mary Ann is listed as a Half sibling to Harriet.
In the 1911 Census for Harriet Fisher inmate in Bagthorpe Workhouse with Alice 13, John 6yrs, Harriet is listed as an Imbecile.
Has anyone followed up on Alice Fisher & John? There is a possibility of a marriage for a Alice Fisher b. 1898 Notts in Sept 1920 to surname FOULDS reg dist Nottinghamshire. My regards to the lady who posted the initial Post seeking her grandmothers possible history, I wish you well :) :) :)
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Thank you Susan, I appreciate your help. I don't have access to Ancestry but I think that I would find that tree somewhat overwhelming right now. I am alone and am keeping all of this information to myself as I want to make sure that I have everything in order when I reveal it to my family. I am heavily invested in this, emotionally, and don't want to get ahead of myself - it's right at my core.
How I wish that we were all sitting in a room together - I would love to know all of you.
Thank you, each and every one of you.
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Great Timeline (I was the one who suggested it but had no time to construct one, not one as good anyway)
I have been looking at the people named in court in the censuses and directories.. The prosecutor was a HJ Deane. In 1901 census, there was a Henry Deane, solicitor and coroner. His son was Henry J Deane, also a solicitor but seemed a bit young for the role of prosecutor at the time. But there was a firm of Deane and Hands in the 1891 Kelly's directory. The current web site is here:
http://www.ehlsolicitors.co.uk/about-us/our-history/
But the partnership split in 1897. But could be worthwhile to email them to see if they have any records of this case? They may even take an interest. Just a thought. Gazania
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Probably a bit of track with what the recent postings are about but i was just thinking how important newspapers can be in family history. If it wasnt for Claire.t finding that first article we'd probably be now where near where we are now.
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What a heartbreaking story...certainly made me hug my 2 year old a bit tighter. :'(
CarolRR, I'm sure you will piece it all together, with your passion and the help of these wonderful people. I wish you all the very best and will continue to read this thread with interest.
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Ok everyone, the post after this one will be from Carol even tho it is under my username. She wasnt to sure how to attach the photo.
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Meet my much loved grandmother - Little Mary Ann ...
Photo was taken around 1918, she was in her early 20s
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She is beautiful Carol ;)
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I have been grateful to RootsChatters for helping me on various occasions and have been amazed by their generosity and kindness and this post just proves it. Surely this organisation can be nominated for a humanitarian award of some kind.
Carol must be overwhelmed by all the help she is receiving. I hope she is able to fulfill her promise to her mother.and then she will join the ranks of people who have been helped by complete strangers. I have done nothing to help Carol but feel very proud to belong here.
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Blimey have just read the newspaper article and they refer to the child as "it" all the time. I hope she found love and comfort in Canada
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Good Morning,
so glad all is progressing ... 'well' - Please take care Carol if you are on your own with this amount of information, you surely will need someome close to you to bounce the info off.
She looks like a beautiful lady and fantastic that she managed to overcome such a terrible time.
I noticed the 'it' in the newspaper, found that to be an awful way of talking about her.
xin
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If there are further additions or changes after 24 hrs to this timeline, perhaps I can make the edits for you on it to keep it fresh and update. Let me know if this is the case and you want me to this (also in case I miss any update).
Monica
Yes, thanks Monica that would be good. :)
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I have just caught up with the recent posts. I'm glad that the timeline is OK and thanks to Gazania for suggesting it (an excellent idea especially now that the thread is so long) and also Heywood for making a start on it. :)
A question:
Is anyone chasing up any possible workhouse records? They are at Nottingham Archives. Is anyone visiting or know anyone who might be kind enough to pop along and do a few lookups for Carol? Keep in mind that Harriett was with Alice in Basford Workhouse in the 1901 census and in 1911 she was in Bagthorpe with Alice and John. I think we really need to get hold of these records.
And for Carol:
Mary Ann was 10 when she went to Canada - she must have had memories from her time in England, perhaps not the early memories, but memories of her time in foster care. Do you know if she ever told anyone about her early life? (Not that this will help in the search, but I am just interested). I think after spending 6 years with the Owen family, it must have been very traumatic for Mary Ann to be returned to Barnardos.
At a later stage, I wonder it it might be worth following up on Norman Williams who in 1909 must have gone to a lot of effort to send a letter to Mary Ann who he thought may be his sister. What leads him to believe this? His surname is Williams and her birth surname may be Fisher? He must not have known this and was probably mistaken believing she was his sister - Mary Ann Williams would be a fairly common name I think. He must have been so disappointed that she was unable to tell him anything.
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Ruskie, perhaps a request on the Nottinghamshire board and a link to these posts. I'm sure someone would take this on board when they read Mary Ann's tragic circumstances prior to heading to Canada and Carol's remarkable journey to find details relating to her grandmother. An email to the records office might also help.
Kaybron
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What an amazing story that shows the strength of the human spirit. Your grandmother must have been an amazing lady Carol and what a beautiful photo. If I can help from Australia just holler!
Tiki
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Hi everyone, glad to hear things are progressing. I do agree that the Ancestry family tree should be approached with caution as there is very limited sourcing to prove those links. I tend to use trees as a source for possible hints to investigate but as always the source material needs to be found to back it up. I'm sorry if I created any false hope Carol.
I hope that the certificates can provide more information. Will keep investigating to see what I can find. :)
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Its been some 3 days since I read the original post over a 6.30am coffee and, could I just say, what people have dug up is amazing.
It's a horrible story .... but what is truely heart warming is that a person with such a horrendously difficult beginning becomes a much loved wife, mother and grandmother. I have just reread all 17 pages of posts and, although it breaks my heart to think of a man reaching out to a woman hoping that she might be his sister, it is somewhat comforting to read that Mary Ann does not remember that period of her life (or much of it).
Trawled newspapers back and forth (from 1890-1910) last night for hours but could find no definitive reference to Hall before or after (or his then partner Florence Lea) - with the thought that such an odious person was likely to come up again. I find it quite peculiar that, apart from the 3 newspaper articles found (and listed on the fabulous timeline post) there appears to be no other reference to this case.
I'm unsure how to aid this search but really want to. Am happy to trawl anywhere on cyberspace for any length of time (sitting in Australia).
cocksie
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Kaybron, I will post a lookup request on the Notthinghamshire board a little later. Please let me know if anyone else has already done so, as I'd hate to double up.
Carol, It is fantastic to see a photo of 'little Mary Ann' (and she looks little, even at that age). :) Thank you for sharing it.
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I've arrived late to this fascinating thread, an amazing example of the combined forces of Rootschat in action. A very sad story but at least it has a happy ending for your beautiful grandmother Carol.
As has been noted already Harriet Fisher is listed as Imbecile in 1911, although not on any other census. If she did have some kind of learning disability she may well have been vulnerable and easy prey for men like James Hall and have had little control over leaving little Mary Ann behind when she left him.
I wish you well Carol and hope the certificates prove helpful.
Jan ;)
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I, too, just noted the "imbecile" note in 1911 census for Harriet Fisher. Listed as a scholar when living with father in 1881.
Apologies if I am missing something but, given she married, why would she not be a Harriet Hall?
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Hi.
giblet can you do me a favour and say what page of the article you most
kindly typed up was on as I can not find it in the paper I am looking at although
it does say Leciester Chronicle and correct date you mentioned.
T.I.A.
I did find the Nottingham article.
Beautiful photo of Mary Ann.
EDITED: Just re-read Ruskies brilliant time line.
Sandy
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Cocksie, Harriet says she is single in the 1901 and 1911 censuses. Maybe she disliked James Hall so much that she did not take his name? (unsure this would have happened in that era though). She was in institutions so with no husband around I suppose that they could have assumed she was single. No idea about the surname though ...
I am wondering if it would be an idea to contact the owner of the Fisher / Hall tree on Ancestry, to ask what their sources are? If deemed worthwhile will someone be kind enough to contact them?
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Hi.
giblet can you do me a favour and say what page of the article you most
kindly typed up was on as I can not find it in the paper I am looking at although
it does say Leciester Chronicle and correct date you mentioned.
T.I.A.
I did find the Nottingham article.
Beautiful photo of Mary Ann.
EDITED: Just re-read Ruskies brilliant time line.
Sandy
Here you go :D
Leicester Chronicle and the Leicestershire Mercury (Leicester, England),
Saturday, January 15, 1898; pg. 2; Issue 4536
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Cocksie, Harriet says she is single in the 1901 and 1911 censuses. Maybe she disliked James Hall so much that she did not take his name? (unsure this would have happened in that era though). She was in institutions so with no husband around I suppose that they could have assumed she was single. No idea about the surname though ...
I am wondering if it would be an idea to contact the owner of the Fisher / Hall tree on Ancestry, to ask what their sources are? If deemed worthwhile will someone be kind enough to contact them?
Maybe wait and see what Carol wants to do :)
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Thanks giblet. :)
Got it now, thanks again.
It kept sending me to page 5. ::)
Sandy
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I, too, just noted the "imbecile" note in 1911 census for Harriet Fisher. Listed as a scholar when living with father in 1881.
Apologies if I am missing something but, given she married, why would she not be a Harriet Hall?
As far as I know, in the UK (as in Australia) it has not ever been against the law to use whatever name you want, so long as you are not using a name different from your birth name (or your husband's surname) for the purpose of deceiving or otherwise committing a crime. If she has left her husband, or has been deserted by her husband, then to all intents and purposes the marriage is over, even if no formal declaration of a civil court has finalised any divorce.
I think you will find that "Mrs" as a title in any decade of the 19thC could have a broader meaning than say our mid 20th century families would have understood or expected ....
There's actually plenty of examples of females in New South Wales (Aust) in 19th Century who continued to use the surname they arrived with, long after marrying in NSW. While some of those females were transported under sentence of a civil court, some were simply transported as part of the household of the officers of various regiments sent as garrison forces (UK garrison forces in NSW to about 1870s, some came as wives of men chasing their fortunes in the gold rushes, some came as Orphaned girls, and the various immigration schemes can provide many other reasons ...
Trying not to get too far off the track, but females could live under their birth surname in the 19thC, and it was not something 'new' to the Feminist Movement of the 1970s :) .....
Obviously I cannot speak about UK records in the 19thC, although I do have a fair working knowledge of NSW official record keeping (or lack thereof) in the 19thC (and it varied widely through each decade ! ) and NSW was of course just one of the British Colonies in the Antipodes ;D
Question of the Aussie RChatters reading this thread ..... Anyone searched Trove or Papers Past for any sightings of colonial reports of this dastardly horrible man .... that giblet has so carefully typed up for Carol and us all.
Cheers, JM
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I am wondering if it would be an idea to contact the owner of the Fisher / Hall tree on Ancestry, to ask what their sources are? If deemed worthwhile will someone be kind enough to contact them?
Maybe wait and see what Carol wants to do :)
That is certainly a wise idea. :)
Carol, maybe you would also like to place a request on the Nottinghamshire board, for a lookup of the Workhouse records which are kept at Nottingham Archives? Please provide a link to this thread so that anyone willing to help can get the full story. :)
[Added: Majm, I had a quick look on Trove after I'd read your reply but couldn't see anything about this case - I wouldn't trust me though if I were you, so maybe another pair of eyes would be wise. ;)]
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May I please make things easier for us to refer back to :)
See how we go this time ;D Hope i didnt leave anything out.
Saturday, January 15, 1898
GROSS CRUELTY TO A CHILD AT LOUGHBOROUGH
HUNG UP BY STRAPS
CRAMMED IN A CUPBOARD
At the Loughbourough petty sessions on Wednesday before Mr S Wells [in the chair]The Mayor Ald Tidd, Messers U Goodacre, P Winsor, J G Shields, James Hall, labourer no fixed address was charged by Inspector Barnes, NSPCC with cruelly ill treating a female child, aged 2 years on November 14. Mr H J Deane prosecuted for the society and said this was not a case of cruelty by neglect or indifference of parents but one of actual violence by the prisioner. This child was 2 years old and no relation to the prisoner as far as could be ascertained nor of the woman whom he cohabited. But he had the custardy of the child and was responsible for her. He had been tramping between Loughborough, Leicester, and Derby, and at varous times he and the woman had stayed at the Model Lodging House Loughborough and on several occasions he had treated the child with great cruelty. This culminated on Fair Saturday and Sunday when he treatment of the girl was so bad that the female deputy at the lodging house complained to the police. The prisoner left the town the same day and was arrested on a warrant on Tuesday last. After describing the acts of cruelity which would be proved by the witness Mr Deane said he thought the bench would have no hesitation in coming to the conclusion that this was a case in which a penalty should be inflicted as would show the prisioner and men like him that even children who did not belong to them could not be treated as this child had been,.
Martha Haywood female deputy at the Model said that on Fair Saturday about noon she saw the prisioner kick the child against the sink causing a bruise on the forehead the size of a half crown. On Sunday witness saw him hang the child up by a belt around her waist from a nail in the beam. It hung there for five minutes face down afraid to cry and witness added " The child is in court and full of measles as it can be" Prisoner - Its only a cold it got the last day or two.- Witness, continuing said there is a small cupboard in the kitchen. and witness had seen him push the child into it, doubling up its head and limbs to get it in. He kept it there for tow hours. On varous occasions witness had heard in the bedroom occupied by the man, woman and child, a sound as of a strap had been used and a child crying.
Mr Winsor- Were there no other people present when he did all this? - Yes.- And they did not try to stop him? - It seemed to amuse them.
The Magisstrate's Clerk ; Didnt you people want to take it out? - The misses of the lodging house fetched it out but he repeated it. Witness had repeatedly stopped the man from ill treating the child. - Prisoner: I could get into the cupboard myself.
Ellen Marshall, wife of Herbert Marshall living near the Model said that on Fair Saturday November 13 the child fell down in the kitchen the prisioner slapped it for falling. He followed it to the yard, kicked it in the back, and it fell against the sink, wounding its forehead. Prisioner took it back into the house and made it lie on a form saying if it got up he would kill it. The child lay still for a while and then moved, the prisoner slapped it, and made it lie down again. The man was quiet sober on these occasions.
Mary Sheriff, who said she was 78 last October, and walked all the way to Whitwick on Tuesday and had been fetched back by police was the next witness. At the fair time she said she was staying at the Model and knew the prisioner and the woman with him and the child " little Mary Ann". Witness went on to describe how she saw prisoner turn his wife out and put the baby on the floor. Then he took the little baby put a strap under her little jaws and around her head and hung her up for two or three minutes. After that he put her little hands together and tied the strap around them and hung her up again. The other people in the room had a hearty good laugh but witness hid her face in her hands and could not look.
Inspector Agar, deposed that ? ?? the prisoner on a warrant on Tuesday at the ? Lodging House. He told him what the charge was and prisioner said - " Who's going to give me away?" Witness said he thought the old woman was going to give evidence against him. Prisoner remarked " Thats after giving her two two-pennorths.
Inspector Barnes said he had measured the cupboard referred to and found it was 13 inches deep, 12 inches wide, 27 inches long. It would be impossible to get the child in without doubling its knees up to its head. The cupboard was by the side of the fireplace where a roaring fire was always on the way and it would be very hot. It was used for drying fire wood. Witness saw the man's wife in Loughbourgh three weeks ago looking for him, and she told him that they purchased the child at Derby for the purpose of getting their living by it and it did not belong to the prisoner.
Prisoner was proceeding to dispute this statement when the Magistrate's clerk remarked it was not evidence against him and he would be wise not to ask questions as to make it evidence.
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Prisoner said that about 2 years ago he cohabited with the child's mother at Ilkeston and married her when the child was two or three months old. He had been with her ever since till last December when they come to Loughbourgh. The wife of his was going about town with another man and he thought it was time to " get shut of her" as quick as he could. She and another youngster went away and prisoner had always had this baby girl with him. He had never done anything wrong to it and it always had plenty to eat and a bed to go to.
Florence Lea said she was keeping company with the prisoner. She had never seen him ill use the child during the three months she had been with him. It is not true he hung her up with a strap or kicked her. The affair in the yard was when she fell against the sink and cut her forehead.
By Mr Deane:- She come to Loughborough at the beginning of the fair and made prisoners acquaintance at the Model, and went away with him on Sunday and has been with him ever since.
The Bench convicted and the Chairman said they considered it a very gross case of cruelty. Prisoner would go to goal for ten weeks - hard labour.
Mr Deane applied that the child should be sent to the Workhouse till instructions had been received from the society as to its custody.
The Clerk said the bench had no power to make a order of that kind after the father had been convicted.
The Deputy Chief Constable however stating that the woman Lea was not willing to take charge of the child, Mr Bosworth said the relieving officier would have to see to it. The court would not need to make any order...
Oh deary me I forgot to say those two magic words to our transcriber, Giblet .....
THANK YOU.
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Good morning, it's been a busy night! ;) Thank you Giblet for your technical help, as well as for everything else that you have done to help me! To all the 'chatters' who have posted wishes, I take each and every one of them to heart, so thank you, sincerely, for your kindness.
Now ... I sent an email last night to Nottingham Archives, providing them with the names of my newly found relatives, where they were located, and enquired about receiving information about them. I will let you know when I receive a response.
As per the Ancestry 'tree', for now, I think it's a useful tool to aid in all of this, but I don't really want to reach out to anyone just yet. Once I have the certificates in hand, and hopefully some information from Archives, the path will be much clearer ... I really do not want to get ahead of myself with this. I have waited many years to arrive at where I find myself right now, and I find myself missing my Mom as if I had just lost her (she passed in 2007) so this might appear as having to take 'baby steps' for you amazing researchers, and I am sorry if it makes things more difficult, but it's important to me that we back up what we know and then proceed based on what we know. This is a close relationship, it is my grandmother, and emotions will also be high with family members - I have to get this right. I have one Uncle left, he was married to my Mom's little sister, my grandmother's youngest child, who passed in 2003, and before sitting down with him, I have to have all of my ducks lined up properly.
Hopefully the certificates are on their way! I can't wait to share that information with all of you!
p.s. re: Harriet not changing her name - I'm wondering if she may have been refused access to the Workhouse if she had reported being married with a living husband (if you can call him that).
p.p.s. re: "it" - When I first came upon this terminology, I was horrified. I had to remind myself of the era in which all of this played out - this was perfectly normal and acceptable language at that time in history and therefore, I am able to 'let it slide'.
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Afternoon from here Carol.
I understand fully you wish everything to be correct.
I wonder if you could just confirm for me about the January 12th 1898 mention.
As the petty sessions were on the 15th January I wondered if you could
say what and where is the mention of the 12th.
Timeline is on Page 13.
Take it slowly.
Sandy
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Your grandmother is beautiful Carol, thank you for sharing a picture of her with us.
Hopefully it won't take to long to get the certificates from England.
Karen
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I have one Uncle left, he was married to my Mom's little sister, my grandmother's youngest child, who passed in 2003, and before sitting down with him, I have to have all of my ducks lined up properly.
Have you considered printing out this thread, and letting family read it in their own time?
I just really feel you need to share this with someone; a shoulder to cry on? :-*
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seahall - good afternoon. My reference to the Jan. 12th date came from the (typed) "admitting papers" portion of the Barnardo's file. It states that "on 12th January last the case against him was heard at Loughboro' ...". A typo perhaps?
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Carol,
This is your thread and your family, so we must all do as you wish and at your pace. Sometimes we are all so keen to help that we can get a bit carried away and impatient. :)
I'm sure we would all appreciate updates on your progress whenever you feel happy to share.
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Thank you for your concerns, but I'm fine. I've had a few good cries and I'll have more, but I'm ok - it's to be expected.
I am also perfectly fine with the manner in which this is playing out with everyone here. I, too, am eager to sort out the whole thing, but this is not 'old' history, it's recent, and I don't want to hurt anyone in the process (there's been enough of that in the past), so I feel the need to tread gently. If anyone outside the circle is contacted, they may want more than I can give, at this particular point in time. As far as 'research' goes, I hope this will continue to unfold. I hope that I haven't offended anyone, as that was not my intent. I love all of you, this is amazing.
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I have just caught up with this very sad and rivieting story. I am amazed at the amount of information that has been identified so far. I may need to re-read parts as there is so much information that has come to pass. Well done to all.
I have a query (based on post #163) Is anyone following up the Owens family? I was just thinking about how stories are handed down in families and wondering if the foster mother's family might know anything if there are still living relatives?
Best wishes to Carol and many thanks for sharing the lovely picture of your Grandmother.
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Hi california dreamin, thank you for your wishes, and comments/suggestions. This is such an amazing group ... I feel that they have found my grandmother's identity, which is what I was looking for, and the certificates will likely confirm these findings. In the process, I have learned that my grandmother had siblings and finding them has now become my focus. The past seems to be uncovered and I am eager to discover whether there are living descendants from Harriet's other children.
I appreciate your suggestion pertaining to the Owens family. While I am grateful to the Owens family, in the grand scheme, I don't feel that there is much that they can add to the search for ancestral information. At that point in my grandmother's life, what they knew of her was what Barnardo's would have provided, and I already have the personal information from them.
I am going to scout out my DNA matches profiles for some "Fisher's" ... I'll keep you posted.
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Carol
I've been away for a few days and missed this thread. What a sad story, but it looks as though, at last, you may be able to find the real Mary Ann. What an amazing lot of Rootschatters we have working their way through documents and newspaper reports to find clues for you.
The photograph of your gran shows a lovely young woman who seems to have overcome her awful early years.
Lizzie
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I want to share something with all of you - I have a small photo album that belonged to my grandmother, Mary Ann "Fisher", in which she wrote a short poem on the inside cover, in her own hand. It provides a little bit of insight into the person that she became.
When you turn the first page, the leather cover of the album, she has written:
"Nov. 2/17
Take not this book my honest friend
For if you do the gallows will be your end
And when you die the Lord will say, where is that book you stole away!
And if you say you do not know,
The Lord will say
Go down below
"So beware"
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Thanks very much for sharing that :)
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Thank you so much for sharing your Grandmother's poem with us Carol, that is so poignant.
What a wonderful lady she was.
Maddie
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This story is about a wonderful woman who overcame so much ... and moved forward with her life.
Leaving behind her people who really cared for her.
bless her xxx
xin
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Carol,
Your grandmother was a beautiful person. The picture is so lovely. She looks to be a kindly, intelligent lady.
That poem speaks volumes. She has summed up her early life with the end warning. How clever and astute of her.
I am sure we all understand your need to get things right and validated prior to sharing whatever you find with your family. By the time you do share information it, hopefully, won't be so raw for you (I can appreciate it must be for you right now). As you say, it is at the very core of you. It will bring up all sorts of emotions. Perfectly normal for you to just want your mum, bless her.
It will be a wonderful thing when you can share your knowledge with them; there will be questions fired at you from all angles!!
People here are so helpful. Will fall over themselves to help anyone. They are magical.
I reiterate what others have said, we are all "here" for you. Even if you want to shout and scream in capital frustration letters - let it out.
We remain your friends. Bless you Carol. Just imagine - if there is an afterlife - your mum and gran will be looking down laughing.
Fondest regards
Susan
As an afterthought - Going back to the court case. I wonder who the male witness was. It seems all witnesses/contributors were named. Just after Mrs Sheriff, the 78 year old lady who walked all the way... Then the prisoner says "Who's going to give me away" It goes on to refer to a witness as "he". Shame he was not named.
I also wonder about the suggestion someone made about contacting the original Solicitor. They may have something in their archives. One of us could do that for you if it would make it easier.
Take care for now. :)
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Susan,
On re-reading the article, I think the witness referred to is Inspector Agar when he was giving evidence regarding his questioning of Hall. At least that's how I read it ???
Looby
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And Carol,
What a lovely photograph of your grandma :). I sincerely hope the truth is found after all these years.
Best wishes,
Looby
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Ah Looby
Yes, re-read. You are correct. Thanks for the pointer.
Susan
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I am sorry to put a damper on this, but I thought that inscription sounded familiar. I'm afraid it is a folk rhyme rather an an original poem. :( There are many variations of it.
(When I was young we used to write similar things inside our books).
From good old google:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0tzl/
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0tzk/
Of course the most important thing is that it is in Mary Ann's own hand. :)
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No damper at all Ruskie - I had no idea whether it was her own creation or not - it makes no difference to me, but I definitely wouldn't want to take credit for someone else's work, so thank you for pointing that out. What is written in my grandmother's photo-album makes me smile, I feel her sense of humour.
Late this afternoon, I did a google search simply on "Alice Hall" - one of the first results was a VERY VERY grim story concerning an Alice Hall, which is currently playing out in the London courts - again, the stomach almost turned. I wonder ... :(
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Mornin' CarolRR and all
I'm afraid I come with more questions and no answers as I have never researched in Leicestershire or Notts. However, I was wondering the following (I may have missed this by not reading the thread carefully enough, in which case I apologise!):
How was the conclusion reached that Mary Ann was not the child of Hall? I know that it was stated that Harriet had a child before she and Hall married but that (in my mind) would not preclude him as the father. Harriet may have been cohabiting with him prior to that. Again, why would a man such as Hall marry a woman with a child taking on that responsibility? If the information supplied that Hall was not related to the child was from a police or court statement perhaps he said that because he felt he would be dealt with in a more lenient fashion? I think the statement from the newspaper said there was no relationship as far as could be ascertained or something like that.
Also, I would want to see if there were any existing police or prison records for Hall. I know Manchester have a great collection and a Police archives - but Leceistershire? Also, I think I remember the paper also saying he was known to them. Which to me implies previous convictions. The police & prison registers carry a great amount of information such as addresses, next of kin and sometimes further comments which I don't think would have made their way to the newspaper. I think for completeness it may be useful to draw up a timeline of events for Hall. I am a great believer (like another chatter) of drawing up timelines. Is it worth a phone call to the Archives to see what they have? Carol may not have a huge interest in Hall at the moment but...
And for interest only I found this: http://tinyurl.com/cx7rgwy
As I am always interested in what things were really like in the community during the time my ancestors lived there.
Finally!, it would, I think be interesting to try and chase down any descendants of Harriet Fisher's other children and see if they were agreeable to a DNA test. Fascinating stuff.
PS -Yes, Carol I take your point about the Owens family not knowing any more than what they were told by Barnardos. I guess I was thinking they may have lived in the same community and may have heard gossip or stories not in the paper. I know it was a long shot!
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I think there initial confusion regarding the parentage of the child. Initially the newspaper article said Hall was no relation but Hall is alleged to have said that he had been living with the mother and married her when the child was 2 or 3 months old, but I don't think he admitted to being the father. The marriage between Hall and Harriet Fisher was found as well as a the birth of a Mary Ann Fisher 2 months before the marriage. All of this is recalled in giblet's transcription on page 9/19. Carol is awaiting certificates.
The timeline is on page 13 and contains all that is known about the case including all that is known about Hall.
I think that newspaper articles have been searched looking for any other reports of crimes committed by Hall, but nothing has been found.
It is a good idea to see if there are any prison records for him.
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Although I have noticed the title of this thread over the last few days I hadn't read it till just now.
Carol, what a harrowing story! As a complete outsider one cannot read it without a great deal of emotion, but how wonderful that you are being helped by such dedicated people.
Your grandmother looked gentle and happy, which considering the abuse of her early childhood is quite amazing. I am so glad that she lived a happy life, even though it was a relatively short one.
You must be very proud of her.
I wish you well in your quest, and must show my appreciation to all who are involved.
Susan
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It has been suggested that I repost the timeline for anyone who would like to catch up. This is the information that rootschatters have gathered so far - and relationships are unproven. Carol is awaiting certificates and information from Nottinghamshire Archives regarding Workhouse records.
The transcription of the newspaper article which gives a good outline of the case is on page 9/10.
c 1874 - Harriett Fisher born Ilkeston Derbyshire, father George
c 1876 - James Hall born
1881 census - 3325/100/3 Harriet born abt 1874 - parents George and Harriet
1891 census - 2665/ 25/ 43 George and daughter Harriet (surname transcribed as) Fislin 17 yrs (b abt 1874)
1895 - Oct-Dec Mary Ann Fisher birth Basford
1896 - 29th January - Mary Ann Fisher baptised Ilkeston. Mother is Harriet Fisher
1896 - 7th March - Marriage in Ilkeston of James Hall (age 20 years, father William) married Harriet Fisher (age 22 yrs, father George) [GRO ref Basford 7b 205 Mar.Qtr 1896]
1897 - 13/14 November Loughborough Fair - James Hall committed cruelty to child.
Hall says he was with his wife from his marriage until the fair.
She went off with another man at the fair.
She and another youngster went away.
1897 - About December - Hall's wife was looking for him and said they had purchased the child at Derby. It did not belong to him. Hall disputed this. Hall said child was 2 years old October last. He said he married the mother at Ilkeston Old Church when the child was a few months old. He was
then working at Stanton Ironworks Company
1898 - 12th January - the case against James Hall was heard at Loughboro' Petty Sessions and he was sentenced to ten week's hard labour. Custody of Mary Ann given to NSPCC.
1898 - Saturday January 15th - Newspaper article of trial published in Leicester Chronicle and the Leicestershire Mercury (Leicester, England), Saturday, January 15, 1898;
pg. 2; Issue 4536. Also a smaller article published in the Nottinghamshire Guardian on same date
1898 - 1st March - Mary Ann entered Barnardos in Stepney Causeway - Age 2 1/2 years)
1901 census - Harriet Fisher, single born abt 1873 living in Nottingham with daughter Alice 2 yrs. She is in the Basford workhouse.3191 /118 /6 (mistranscribed as Harritt Fisher)
1901 census - Mary Ann (with new surname Williams), a 5 year old nurse child, Dr Barnardos Home, is with the Owen family - 759/ 96/23 living in Kent
1904 - December - Mary Ann returned to Barnados because Mrs Owens was too ill to care for her.She had been fostered by the Owens family for 6 years.
1905 - 25th May - Mary Ann sailed to Canada
1909 - Jan 14 - Mary Ann receives a letter from Norman Williams, who believes he could be her brother and asking her to write fully all she remembers of her relatives.
Jan 22: Mary Ann said she remembers nothing of any relatives and was placed in home when very young.
1911 census - Harriett Fisher is an inmate in Bagthorpe Workhouse, with 13 year old Alice Fisher and 6 year old John Fisher. Harriet is a charwoman b Ilkeston.
1919 - Deaths Mar quarter
Fisher Harriett age 45 Nottingham vol 7b page 444
(not confirmed)
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May I just suggest some caution as yet.
From the original information that Hall had married in Ilkeston - a woman with a young child, we found Harriet Fisher and Mary Ann.
That is the basis of all this and as yet is unproven. I did try to follow up anything re Harriet and Mary Ann before I posted the info together with the census info because of the sensitivity of the case and although it ties in with James Hall and seems highly likely, nothing is yet confirmed.
heywood
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Thank you for all of the comments.
Heywood, I agree with you. I'm not totally convinced that Hall is the biological father - the birth certificate is only someone's word ... and when looking at Harriet's history/behaviour, it makes me wonder. She named Alice "Hall" but Mary Ann and John are "Fisher". Somewhere, there is a connection with a "Potter", who just happens to be related to Hall (his sister married a Potter). My suspicion is due to the huge number of Potter's in my DNA matches, whereas there are '2' Hall's. This might not mean anything, but it's nagging at me.
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This has been a really interesting (and sometimes increbily sad) thread but since it's reached 21 pages this would be a good place to lock it (we usually lock at 20 pages).
Carol- please don't think this will stop you from continuing the search for information about your grandmother- just start a new topic and we'll link this one to it so readers of the new one can see all the previous details.
This thread is now continued here http://www.rootschat.com/links/0tzy