RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Yorkshire (West Riding) => Topic started by: jensav on Saturday 11 May 13 15:42 BST (UK)
-
Hi, I'm trying to find out some information on the above couple.
I have found 2 marriage Banns records, 1 dated 21 Sep 1817 and the second 28 Jun 1819.. both are from the Kirkby Overblow (Yorkshire) parish records and refer to Samuel who was from the parish of Bradford and Rachel Brown "from this parish".
I know Rachel's father is called James Brown as I have found a second marriage from later in her life to a Samuel Hardaker and its an actual certificate that lists her as from Yeadon/Guiseley and shows her fathers name as opposed to just the banns that only lists the couples names. I also have her on a census record from 1841 which has her listed as aged 50 so birth date is 1791 approx. although I cant find her birth records and I don't have much else up until she marries her second husband.
I have also found 3 children from Rachel and Samuel Smith (Mary, Richard & John - who I am also searching for, he is my 3rd Great Grandfather) I cannot find a birth/baptism record for John who was born in Poole (or Otley depending which census you read) in 1818 (according to the 1841 census) which puts his birth between the 2 sets of marriage banns I have found.. a clue possibly!! lol. I do already have baptism records for his siblings Richard and Mary who were baptised in St Peters, Bradford Cathedral and I can find John on most census forms in the Gt Horton or Sticker Lane area of Bradford..but have no birth records for him which I would like as they may be helpful.
I cannot find any other information for Samuel :( all I know is he was a woolcomber from Bradford and I cannot find any further census details for Rachel although as I said, I know she remarried in 1871 and states on the certificate she is from Yeadon/Guiseley (not Kirkby Overblow) and died shortly after in 1873, I found the probate records but I have no trace of her on the census records in between 1841 and her second marriage in 1871
I've been banging my head over this for months now.. does anyone think they can help? researching Smith is SO hard but then to throw a Brown in the mix too.. I'm getting nothing.
Thanks for reading, any help is very much appreciated. :)
-
Hi
Are you looking at the records on Anc***ry ?
The 28th June 1819 is the day they married, after Banns. Both left their mark in register.
Witnesses: William and Ann Bailey and also a Ralph Snowball (who looks like a church official, witnessed quite a few records on that page)
claire
-
I have also found 3 children from Rachel and Samuel Smith (Mary, Richard & John - who I am also searching for, he is my 3rd Great Grandfather) I cannot find a birth/baptism record for John who was born in Poole (or Otley depending which census you read) in 1818 (according to the 1841 ce
, I know she remarried in 1871 and states on the certificate she is from Yeadon/Guiseley (not Kirkby Overblow) and died shortly after in 1873, I found the probate records but I have no trace of her on the census records in between 1841 and her second marriage in 1871
. :)
FreeBMD has death reg - for (presumably) Rachel hardaker's death - as seen in probate record
Death Reg
Rachel Hardaker
age 56
Jun qtr 1873
Wharfedale
9a 117
this would give her a y.o.b. of c.1817
???????
What age is she on the marriage cert and who were witnesses????
Suz
-
Hi
Just spotted that myself, marriage just gives "of full age"
claire
-
Witnesses
William Croft Forrest and and Ellen Forrest.
claire
-
this looks like Samuel Hardaker who married Rachel??
1871
Little London Rowden Yorks
Samuel hardaker Head widower 60 Woollen Weaver Idle Yorks
RG10 4300 15 24
this looks like the Rachel he married
1871
Windmill Hill Rowdon
Rachel Smith head widow 54 Guisley Yorks
Joseph son U 22 Foreman Rawdon
John Son U 19 Woollen weaver Rowden (as mentioned on probate records)
RG10 4307 45 168
Possibly it wasn't "your" Rachel who married Samuel Hardaker?????
Suz
-
this looks like Samuel Hardaker who married Rachel??
1871
Little London Rowden Yorks
Samuel hardaker Head widower 60 Woollen Weaver Idle Yorks
RG10 4300 15 24
this looks like the Rachel he married
1871
Windmill Hill Rowdon
Rachel Smith head widow 54 Guisley Yorks
Joseph son U 22 Foreman Rawdon
John Son U 19 Woollen weaver Rowden (as mentioned on probate records)
RG10 4307 45 168
Possibly it wasn't "your" Rachel who married Samuel Hardaker?????
Suz
well that might make sense although the probate record I read on Anc***ry didnt give her age at death but did list John Smith as next of kin.. so was thinking that it was a possibility.
Searching "Smith" is a total nightmare isnt it? lol
-
Witnesses
William Croft Forrest and and Ellen Forrest.
claire
This looks like the witnesses
1881
Dial Cottage rawdon Yks
William C Forest head m 36 Woollen manufacturer employing 88 men 81 women 37 boys 8 girls Rawdon Yks
Ellen wife 35 Rawdon
Walter son 11 Yeasdon
plus a servant
RG11 4334 17 29
there is a marriage reg freeBMD
Sept qtr 1865 Otley -on same page William Croft Forest Ellen Smith
so was Ellen a relative of Rachel???
Suz
-
if she was only 56 at death, then I cant see it being "my" Rachel.. her son was born in 1818, I have mine as birth approx 1791.
So.. scrapping the Hardaker stuff.. I am now looking for Rachel Brown of Kirkby Overblow.. who married Samuel Smith a woolcomber from Bradford in 1819 in the parish of Kirkby Overblow.
and John Smith their son who was born in pool/otley, Yorkshire.
Thank you so much for your help so far.. I think you can get so bogged down in the search sometimes that a fresh pair of eyes can be invaluable, if I can be of any help to your own searches just ask. :)
-
Hi
Have noted the two sons Richard and John both married two sisters Mary and Sarah Brooks, on each wedding cert. two of the witnesses mentioned were an Ephraim Smith (witnessed Richards wedding) and a Joseph Smith (witnessed John's wedding). Wonder what relation they may be?
claire
-
It looks like Ellen Smith who married William Croft Forest was the daughter of rachel who married Samuel Hardaker
1861
Rawdon
Thomas Smith head M 48 woollen weaver
Rachel wife 44
Mary daughter 19
ELLEN daughter 15
John son 12
Joseph son 9
all b rawdon
RG9 3215 91 47
so it looks like we have discovered "your" rachel is not the one who married Samuel hardaker???
When you find a probate record giving date of death it is always wise to go to BMD reg's and find the person in the correct quarter and thus find age .
Also remember when you find a marriage record which states "of this parish" it doesn't necessarily mean the person was born there -but at the time of marriage was residing there.
Suz
-
Hi
Have noted the two sons Richard and John both married two sisters Mary and Sarah Brooks, on each wedding cert. two of the witnesses mentioned were an Ephraim Smith (witnessed Richards wedding) and a Joseph Smith (witnessed John's wedding). Wonder what relation they may be?
claire
I noticed that too.. Joseph Smith is also on the witnesses for the other couple's marriage on that page. Ephraim could be something though..
-
It looks like Ellen Smith who married William Croft Forest was the daughter of rachel who married Samuel Hardaker
1861
Rawdon
Thomas Smith head M 48 woollen weaver
Rachel wife 44
Mary daughter 19
ELLEN daughter 15
John son 12
Joseph son 9
all b rawdon
RG9 3215 91 47
so it looks like we have discovered "your" rachel is not the one who married Samuel hardaker???
When you find a probate record giving date of death it is always wise to go to BMD reg's and find the person in the correct quarter and thus find age .
Also remember when you find a marriage record which states "of this parish" it doesn't necessarily mean the person was born there -but at the time of marriage was residing there.
Suz
thank you, I will definitely do that in future.. I thought I was doing so well too! :)
-
I am trying to work back to Rachel & samuel through the children
I have found Richard b 1820 father samuel's occ "Comber"
I have also found John (I think) 1818 - 1851 & 1881 he had unmarried sister Mary living with him - is this correct??
Suz
-
Hi
Just found Ephraim Smith witnessing other marriages...looks like another church official.
Gosh! there's a lot of Smiths about ;D
claire
-
I am trying to work back to Rachel & samuel through the children
I have found Richard b 1820 father samuel's occ "Comber"
I have also found John (I think) 1818 - 1851 & 1881 he had unmarried sister Mary living with him - is this correct??
Suz
yes thats them
-
Hi.
Rachel was living in Horton on the 1841 census and her surname has been overwritten and it doesn`t look like Smith to me. It looks more like Bin*s :-\
Have you considered this marriage:
6th March, 1838
Bradford Parish Church
Jonathan Binns, full age, Bachelor, Horton, father John Binns Comber
Rachel Smith, Full age, Widow, Horton, father John BROWN, Husbandman
both made their mark
Witnesses were John Binns and Charles Cravire?
Mo
-
if she was only 56 at death, then I cant see it being "my" Rachel.. her son was born in 1818, I have mine as birth approx 1791.
So.. scrapping the Hardaker stuff.. I am now looking for Rachel Brown of Kirkby Overblow.. who married Samuel Smith a woolcomber from Bradford in 1819 in the parish of Kirkby Overblow.
and John Smith their son who was born in pool/otley, Yorkshire.
I can find baptisms for Richard and mary -but not for John - because he was born 1818 and Rachel did not marry Samuel Smith until 1819 maybe he was the child of a different mother????
Suz
-
if she was only 56 at death, then I cant see it being "my" Rachel.. her son was born in 1818, I have mine as birth approx 1791.
So.. scrapping the Hardaker stuff.. I am now looking for Rachel Brown of Kirkby Overblow.. who married Samuel Smith a woolcomber from Bradford in 1819 in the parish of Kirkby Overblow.
and John Smith their son who was born in pool/otley, Yorkshire.
I can find baptisms for Richard and mary -but not for John - because he was born 1818 and Rachel did not marry Samuel Smith until 1819 maybe he was the child of a different mother????
Suz
a good point Suz but the banns for Rachel and Samuel's marriage were read in 1817.. I think he was possibly born before they married or the date of his birth is wrong.. maybe? I know I have his date of birth as 1818 but thats from the age on the census and they were not always accurate with dates were they?
-
Hi.
Rachel was living in Horton on the 1841 census and her surname has been overwritten and it doesn`t look like Smith to me. It looks more like Bin*s :-\
Have you considered this marriage:
6th March, 1838
Bradford Parish Church
Jonathan Binns, full age, Bachelor, Horton, father John Binns Comber
Rachel Smith, Full age, Widow, Horton, father John BROWN, Husbandman
both made their mark
Witnesses were John Binns and Charles Cravire?
Mo
also possible. that would give me Rachel's fathers name at least, i have found a burial record for Jonathan Binns in Horton in 1839 so that would explain why he's not listed on the 1841 census..
I'm searching Rachel Binns now to see if there is anything else.