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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Antrim => Topic started by: Frannie5252 on Thursday 09 May 13 20:04 BST (UK)
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John and Thomas Greg were merchants in Belfast as early as 1774 along with Waddell Cunningham. I don't know if they owned ships or not, but by reading the Belfast Newsletter index, I am guessing they were. Maybe owned the ship Snow Betty. I also read that Thomas' son John went to New York in 1778.
There was an Andrew Gregg in Ballyarnet in 1785.
Cunningham Gregg in Belfast in 1792.
I also read that Thomas Greg had land in New York, U.S.A. and that Thomas was from Belfast. Don't know if this is the same Thomas who was a merchant in Belfast. Andrew Gregg and James Thompson were Londonderry ship owners
Cunningham Gregg was merchant in 1792, Belfast.
John Cunningham was a Belfast merchant in 1795 and BNL mentioned him having a brother named Sam.
BNL_ Thomas Greg probate 1767-1827.
Cunningham Greg probate in 1827 Antrim, Ireland.
The reason I posted this information is because I have been researching information on my 4th great grandfather William Greg who left Northern Ireland in the area of Ballymoney with a John Greg. They boarded at the port of Larne in Oct. 1772 and landed in Charlestown in Dec. 1772 on the ship Lord Dunluce. There were others on the ship with the same surname. They were Mary, Jane, and Ninian Greg. This Greg family left with the 5 ships commissioned by the Rev. William Martin from co. Antrim in N.I. more than likely to escape high land rent prices and the low wages of linen workers at that time.
Rev. William Martin's party of ships were mostly Presbyterian who wanted to leave Ireland for religious freedom and unknown opportunities in the new land.
William Greg was given land in S.C. the U.S.A. in Newberry co. His wife's name was Jane.
I am only guessing that William and family came from Lisburn, Londonderry, or Coleraine. I have no idea how far apart these places are, but they knew Rev. martin so I'd say they were of his congregation.
William Greg was born abt.1743 and was associated with the McCalla family from N.I.
That is where I stand on finding the parents of my William Greg and Greg is how he spelled his name as well as John on the letter of appreciation to the Rev. and ship master, but when they reached S.C I saw there name spelled either Gregg or Gragg in census records.
If anyone is related or could help me out on this matter I would be very grateful. I am getting closer and closer but can't get there.
Thank you all and I am proud to be a new member of your friends and researchers. :)
Frances Gragg Warren
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Hello Frances,
Welcome to the Roots Chat community!
Not related, but I did have an extensive firtle around the GREG family when helping Raydale out a while back.
[Simply execute a Find on "cunningham greg boyd" to locate the topic in this Antrim conference.]
Hopefully you will find some of it of interest/use.
[You are welcome to any of the productions mentioned therein.]
Not sure that that information will help you directly with your research goals though ...
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Arthur DOBBS, from a landed family of Ballynure/Carrickfergus, was a major land holder and Governor of South Carolina in the 18thC. He encouraged many of his compatriots to join him.
Plenty online, e.g. http://www.northcarolinahistory.org/encyclopedia/14/entry
Capt. Jock
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thank you Capt. Jock.
I will check out Cunningham Gregg Boyd. Seems there would be a connection there since there was a Cunningham Greg.
Again. thank you.
Frances Gragg
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Frances,
A good history of the GREG family of Belfast, written by a descendant, can be read online:
"From Smuggling to Cotton Kings - The GREG Story"
http://issuu.com/tonytingle/docs/9780956510228_content
Lots there in the early pages about the trading links with the West Indies and New York.
Also, the partnerships with the controversial Waddell CUNNINGHAM.
Couldn't see any mention of anyone heading off to Ballymoney, though.
Annoyingly, the final page showing the family tree does not display!
[Perhaps you could try contacting the author ...]
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He may have gleaned his information from:
R. P. Greg, ‘The genealogical history and traditions of the family of Greg’, Man. CL
Mentioned as a source in the DNB's entry for Samuel GREG, Cotton Manufacturer.
Mary B. Rose, ‘Greg, Samuel (1758–1834)’, Oxford Dictionary of National Biography, Oxford University Press, 2004; online edn, May 2012 [http://www.oxforddnb.com/view/article/59911]
Capt. Jock
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I did Google Waddell Cunningham and came up with some info. I think it was the book you mentioned.
I'll check it out again.
I really don't know if this is my ancestors or not but they were the only ones I found who spelled their surname like my Greggs did.
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I did Google Waddell Cunningham and came up with some info. I think it was the book you mentioned.
I'll check it out again.
I really don't know if this is my ancestors or not but they were the only ones I found who spelled their surname like my Greggs did.
Hi Frances
From the book Defying Empire (Trading with the Enemy in Colonial New York by Thomas M. Truxes:
"Cunningham Waddell (1729-1797) The de facto leader of the Irish merchant community in New York, he was a prime instigator of the Spencer riot and was prosecuted for trading with the enemy and assaulting a fellow merchant"
"Thompson, James (1727-1812) An Irish merchant in New York who helped plan the Spencer Riot and set up as a merchant at Monte Cristi and Cape Francois"
No entry for Gregg. James Thompson came from a Newry, County Down based merchant family, where he first started his business, before moving to New York, where his import goods were supplied in part by other Newry-based family members and merchants. He then came back from the USA to Derry where he set up as a merchant and was successful.
Newry was pre-eminent in trade with the USA and West Indies until a canal was created between Belfast and Lough Neagh - prior to this the Newry Canal linking the town to Lough Neagh was opened in 1742. Once the Belfast link was set up Newry's trade declined.
DIPPAM has some newspaper adverts online for "James Thompson and Andrew Gregg, merchants" in Derry, stating in 1767.
There are also some Newry GREGG entries in the Familysearch Community Trees Project for Newry, and the Belfast Newsletter Index has results for a combination of "Gregg" as a surname and "ballymoney" as a place (while the index is free you need and Ancestry account to view the pages.
HTH
Jim
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Frances,
'Tis a very interesting story this!
There is a list of the heads of familes of the folks who emigrated aboard the five ships.
[James and Mary, Lord Dunluce, Pennsylvania Farmer, Hopewell, Free Mason]
http://boydroots.net/downloads/MartinPassengers.pdf
Their possible Irish geographical origins can be narrowed from the descriptions of the Reverend Martin's stomping grounds. He was minister of Kellswater Reformed Presbyterian Church from 1760 to 1772, but had charge of several other Covenanter congregations.
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=41327195
http://boydroots.net/si_martin.html
Places he preached in included:
Ballylaggan
Ballymoney
Ballyrashane
Bangor
Cloughmills
Cullybackey
Donegore
Dervock
Drimbolg
Kellswater
Kilraughts
Kirkhills
Laymore
Roughfort
Apparently, most of the emigrants hailed from Ballymoney, Kilraughts, Derrykeighan, Ballyrashane, the Vow and Kellswater.
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The Reverend William MARTIN has a mention (P. 188), alongside Samuel DOAK, as preachers of fiery sermons which inspired their congregations to take up arms against the forces of The Crown.
Eagle's Wings, The journey of the Ulster Scots and Scotch-Irish
Dr David Hume MBE
Colourpoint 2011
ISBN 978-1-906578-96-1
A great book about the plight/flight of the Scotch-Irish written by a native of Ballycarry, near Larne, who was a key player in organising the twinning of Larne with Clover and York County in South Carolina.
Its title derives from The Eagle Wing, built in Groomsport, Co. Down, which attempted to take two congregations to America in 1636, having to turn back. During the 18thC at least 300,000 Ulster Presbyterians succeeded where it had failed.
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Recall that King George III bemoaned the loss of his American colonies, which "had run away with a Presbyterian Minister".
[Not sure whether he was referring to DOAK, MARTIN or someone else.]
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The Reverend Martin named his church "Catholic", because it was to be used by all.
[The secular meaning of "catholic" is "universal".]
Was much struck by the parallels with Edward IRVING (buried Glasgow Cathedral), who came out of the same Scottish Covenanter tradition later, and who had strong opinions and a colourful career - founding the Catholic Apostolic Church.
Blinded Eagle
H.C.WHITLEY
SCM Press 1955
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James WHITTLE (of Glenavy) had extensive trading links with America.
He spent his last years in the old manse at Muckamore, near Antrim, with Jane GREG (daughter of John GREG) as his helper.
[Not aware that the families were in trade together though.]
His eldest son William WHITTLE returned to Belfast from New York in 1803.
His son Conway WHITTLE went out shortly after the war with France finished in 1763.
He was based in Boston & Baltimore.
His son Fortescue WHITTLE also emigrated to Norfolk, retiring later to Mecklenberg county.
Capt. Jock & Revving Jock
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William Greg was given land in S.C. the U.S.A. in Newberry co. His wife's name was Jane.
I am only guessing that William and family came from Lisburn, Londonderry, or Coleraine. I have no idea how far apart these places are, but they knew Rev. martin so I'd say they were of his congregation.
The distance from Coleraine to Lisburn is about 60 miles.
Though I agree that the family might have been part of the Rev Martin’s congregation, it doesn’t follow that all the passengers that he took to America were. He advertised for passengers in the Belfast Newsletter, and so some may have come from almost anywhere in Ulster.
Rev Martin was the first, and for a while the only, Reformed Presbyterian (aka Covenanter) Minister in Ireland, so his congregation were scattered across hundreds of miles.
"The Rev. William Martin was the only Covenanter minister in counties Down and Antrim at that time. In 1760 he resided at Kellswater, in the townland of Carnaghts in the Parish of Connor. He had oversight responsibility for societies at Cullybackey, Laymore, Cloughmills, and Dervock. He preached also in Londonderry and Donegal. The Presbytery was founded in 1743 and Kellswater became the center in 1760." (Source - Scotch-Irish Migration to South Carolina, 1772: Reverend William Martin And His Five Shiploads of Settlers. Jean Stephenson. Shenandoah Publishing House. 1970.)
If the family were part of the Rev Martin’s congregation, then the next snag is that the Reformed Presbyterian Church in Ireland has no surviving baptism or marriage records for any congregation in the 1700s, and so that’s a major stumbling block to researching the family via church records.
Researching ancestors who left Ireland in the 1700s can be very difficult. This won't be an easy one to solve.
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I think Ballylaggan Reformed Presbyterian Church does have baptismal records starting before 1800 but I can't remember the exact date (and I was told years ago that it's not the only R.P. Church that has such old records).
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I think Ballylaggan Reformed Presbyterian Church does have baptismal records starting before 1800 but I can't remember the exact date (and I was told years ago that it's not the only R.P. Church that has such old records).
Interesting. They must be more or less unique for that denomination. I have never come across any 18th century RP baptism or marriage records at all. Here’s what William Roulston says:
“Very few Reformed Presbyterian records have survived from the eighteenth century. This can partly be explained by the paucity of Ministers at this time; many baptisms and marriages were performed by visiting Ministers from Scotland and there is little evidence of proper records being kept of these events. Congregations were divided into societies, composed of several families living within a short distance of each other. Records belonging to these societies – if any were kept – have not survived from the pre 1800 period.” (Researching Scots-Irish ancestors, page 36).
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Yes, I'd seen that before. Years ago a member of Ballylagan who I knew heard something similar at a talk and afterwards she told the speaker when Ballylaggan records started as well as at least one other place (Cullybackey perhaps although I may be mistaken as Cullybackey was in the same conversation we had).
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It’s not Cullybackey. I’ve used theirs quite a few times. They start in the 1820s. (They are beautifully written and clear - a pleasure to work with).
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Frances,
You will have worked out by now that the rich merchants who took up speculative land purchases - namely John GREG (with sons John GREG & Thomas GREG) and Waddell CUNNINGHAM are not good lines for you to follow in your research!
[They actually caused much of the land tenure grief in the early 1770s, buying out leases in e.g. Ballylinney and Ballypalady.]
GREG & CUNNINGHAM had their houses in Belfast attacked as result They had stepped in as middle men, paying the increased rentals demanded by the Earl of Belfast (later Marquess of Donegall), then exacted even more from the new sub-tenants that they then engaged.
[Another such merchant, Francis TURNLY, boasted in his Will that he made 10 times more from his rentals on the Belfast quayside than he paid to Donegall. When Donegall eventually investigated why he was struggling to make ends meet, he discovered that in some cases there was a hierarchy of 7 layers between himself and the end tenant, each creaming money from the land for little investment/effort.]
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So, suggest that you'd be best to re-concentrate on the GREGs that you know.
The fact that they all went out on the Lord Dunluce (and not on any of the other 4 ships), along with The Reverend MARTIN, must surely be a good pointer to their being amongst his congregation.
The allocation of lands to Ninian GREG and to Jane GREG in close association to the Reverend MARTIN's holding in Chester County might indicate a closer connection, than those of Mary GREG and William GREG. However, such may have been the luck of the draw, or may be a trick of the historical geography (which seems mainly to have used rivers as location pointers)!
'Twas interesting to see the rules of the land allocation.
100 acres for the head of a family (allowable to anyone over 16 years old).
Then + 50 acres for each (young) family member.
So, The Reverend Martin, with a family of 7, was allocated 400 acres - one of the biggest holdings.
Perhaps this was a major factor in his being so enthusiastic about the emigration!
The emigrants, being Scotch-Irish, were placed out on the boundaries of the Wilderness, to act as a buffer between the potentially-beligerent natives and the English settlers.
[Much as they had been "used" in Ulster c.f. Glenavy.]
Ultimately, many of them moved up in to the nearby Blue Ridge Mountains.
Eventually becoming known as "Hill Billys". [King Billy's men from the hills.]
There backs were well looked after by William WHITLEY, great Indian fighter (nemesis of Tecumseh in 1812), who came out the traditional Pennsylvania, Virginia, Carolina, Kentucky route.
[His parents were Solomon WHITLEY and Elizabeth BARNET, of a Pb persuasion from the North of Ireland. We've never managed to track down their geographical origins yet.]
Capt. Jock
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Frances,
Its 4th of July now - so here is your present!
Another Revolutionary War link between upper South Carolina and Co. Antrim.
I got interested in the timing of the Reverend MARTIN's exhortation of his congregation to support the American Revolutionary cause. Such was in 1781, quite late in the proceedings of the War of Independence. What might have precipitated such action?
Anything happened locally at that time?
Yep, the British forces pushed up country from Charleston on the coast and engaged Nathaneal GREENE's army just North of Camden in Kershaw County, at Hobkin's Hill on 25-APR-1781.
[From my sketch map, this lies just to the East of Fairfield County, and South East of Chester County.]
The result was a short-lived British victory, with its success attributed largely to the exceptional leadership qualities of its field commander, and the professionalism of a particular group of soldiers that he led.
He was George Augustus Francis RAWDON-HASTINGS,
Baron Rawdon, Earl of Moira, Marquess of Hastings, &c. &c. &c.
("Lord Rawdon")
(1754 - 1826)
He led his own specially-raised company, "The Volunteers of Ireland".
Returning to England he became a great friend of the Prince of Wales (later King George IV) and champion of Whig principles.
Later. as a diplomat he helped to rule India and then Malta (where he lies buried in Valetta).
His ancestors ultimately derive from Rawdon Hall, just North of Leeds in Yorkshire, England.
George RAWDON was Lord Edward CONWAY's "servant" in South Antrim.
He helped to found Lisnagarvey (aka Lisburn), no doubt bringing in settlers from his home area.
He was also instrumental in fending off the attacks of "the rebels" in 1641.
After that excitement, the CONWAYs were adamant that no dissenters were to be allowed to live within the town walls, nor were their meeting houses to be built there.
Such throws up in to great contrast the key problem faced by the Scots who migrated in to Ireland.
In their own country, the majority religion (Presbyterianism) was established by law.
However, the Anglican religion was the State established norm in England, Wales & Ireland.
Hence, the majority of Scots emigrating to Ireland, to satisfy King James' grand social engineering experiment in the early 1600s, found themselves to be treated as 2nd class under the law.
[The Covenanters will have held particularly sad memories of the 1680s "Killing Times" in Scotland.]
The prohibition on creating their own schools, having their marriages classified as "invalid", and not being able to hold public office were the main contentions. The land crisis of the late 1760s, triggered by the expiration of many of the 3-lives leases initiated in the late 1690s following the conclusion of the Williamite/Jacobite war, with its demands for immediate fines and then vastly increased annual rents, was the final straw for many.
The Reverend Martin will have exhorted his parishioners to take up arms to preserve those key tenets incorporated within the Declaration of Independence of 1776 - freedom of religious practice, and complete separation of religion from state politics.
http://home.golden.net/~marg/bansite/friends/rawdon.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Camden
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Hobkirk%27s_Hill
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volunteers_of_Ireland
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kershaw_County,_South_Carolina
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathanael_Greene
Capt. Jock
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Capt. Jock, you certainly know your history. Great info on your part.
Thanks, Frances
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Frances,
I can eliminate one "Greg" from your research list -- Ninian Greg was in fact a Craig (SC archives show land grant to Ninian Crage).
Good luck!
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I've seen Gregg, Greg, and Gragg spelled every way possible in land grants, Wills, and other documents. on the Ships list Ninians name was spelled Greg.
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Just a small point:
Reverend Samuel Doak, b 1749 in Augusta Co, VA, was a nephew of my x4gtgdfather John Doak
I am currently trying to find who was the father of said John ... using Y-DNA because there ain't no other evidence that will get us back out of Pennsylvania !
Ralph Doak
[check my Beginner's post of earlier today re 'Doak family ...']
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The tale of Conway and Fortescue Whittle only gets better once they come to America and establish a shipping business out of Norfolk. They did well until Thomas Jefferson closed down the shipping due to the Barbary Pirates. The Whittles sent out one last run of ships to the Indies which were, alas, seized by the fricking French, bankrupting the Whittles. Not to worry. Fortescue had his eye on Mary Davies, the only daughter of Col. William Davies, an original member of the Sons of Liberty, valiant patriot and chief of staff to George Washington and the Marquis de Lafayette. Fortescue married Mary and fathered a prominent family in Mecklenburg County. Their gristmill -Whittle's Mill - was just added to the National Register of Historical Places by the U.S. Department of the Interior. There is a very good book written about the Whittle's in Virginia. Whittle's Mill: An American History.