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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Down => Topic started by: maggiemay13 on Friday 03 May 13 17:58 BST (UK)
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Hi
I'm just starting out on search for family history. I am looking for any information regarding a Tedford Orr born Ballymacarret (that would be in East Belfast now) abt 1881. He was son of Robert Orr born 1849 Ballyhackamore (also East Belfast) and both worked as Blacksmiths. The christian name of Tedford is a diversion from the usual family names of Robert John William Samuel etc and I wonder if there was any connection between the Orrs and the Tedfords. Anybody with any ideas to get me started?
New to the IT side of research so hope I am doing this correctly!
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... Tedford Orr born Ballymacarret (that would be in East Belfast now) abt 1881. He was son of Robert Orr born 1849 Ballyhackamore (also East Belfast) and both worked as Blacksmiths. The christian name of Tedford is a diversion from the usual family names of Robert John William Samuel etc and I wonder if there was any connection between the Orrs and the Tedfords. Anybody with any ideas to get me started?
What was his mother's name? Birth was registered in 1882-
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FBWT-YP5
1901 listed as Thetford-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Victoria/Welland_Street/1219680
same family in 1911-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Down/Victoria__part_of_/Welland/226926
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Thank you Aghadowey. I didn't expect such a fast response. According to military record Tedford signed up with Royal Engineers in 1902 and listed mother as Elizabeth. This would match census info for 1901/11 and I have found a marriage for Eliza Young and Robert Orr in 1866 which seems to fit the bill. I have found no record for marriage although wife may have been called Elizabeth (Sparkes) and sons Sydney and William were born in 1914 and 1918. Tedford is buried in Drumee at Castlewellan but I don't know when or where he died.
I would like to go further back with Robert and Eliza and also fathom if the name Tedford carries any particular significance.
Thanks again.
MM
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I have found a marriage for Eliza Young and Robert Orr in 1866 which seems to fit the bill.
The marriage for this couple sheds a bit more light on the matter- but also creates some questions!
9 Nov.1866 Dundonald district- Robert Orr, age 24, son of John Mcelwrath, to Eliza Young, age 19, Thetford Young.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FGDW-WF6
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Children of Robert Orr & Eliza Young-
Robert (1867) https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/F512-GNB
William John (1869) https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FPYQ-DLS
James (1872) https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FPBN-PLP
Mary Jane (1874) https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/F5CS-KK9
Samuel (1876) https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FGFH-LHG
note: Samuel (not father Robert) born Ballyhackamore (likely not a home birth going by the way extracted)
Margaret (1879) https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FGJ7-Y97
Death for Margaret in U.S.- https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/K3FH-3MM
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Thetford Young- "a carpenter ; churchwarden at Church of Ireland c. 1808; paid £1.10.0 for making 3 coffins in 1842 ; died 23 Aug 1856 aged 62; husband of Rose who died 19 Jun 1885 aged 82; father of 4 children who died young & Robert (d. 30 dec 1866 aged 42); buried Dundonald Church of Ireland graveyard"
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~rosdavies/SURNAMES/Young.htm
Roseanna Orr probably named (or partly named) for her maternal grandmother Rose).
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Wonder if this is a relation? Especially if it ties in to the entry above James Thetford Young-
"apprenticed to a blacksmith and wheelwright. He arrived in New Zealand on the 'Northern Bride' in 1860. He served in the Militia during the Land Wars and then went gold mining at Thames for eight years. After that he worked on the Matamata Estate and arrived in Cambridge in 1877.
He started in the wheelwright business in partnership with Mr Nixon, and was an original member of the Cambridge & Waikato Reed Band in May 1877.
He married Emma McCrea on 29 December 1882 and they had ten children. James was an early Vestryman at the Anglican Church and served from 1888 to 1891 on the Cambridge Borough Council.
James died 19 March 1926 and Emma 2 May 1945."
"James Thetford Young was born on 17 August 1890 and he joined the Duke of Cambridge Lodge on 8 March 1910."
http://cambridgemuseum.org.nz/Biographies/biosV&W.htm
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Excellent progress! Great to clear up Tedford name. I think he maybe signed the Ulster Covenant in 1912 as Thetford.
As you say now we have another mystery. How do we have Robert Orr son of McElrath? Some kind of informal adoption perhaps?
It's late so I'll look at the other stuff tomorrow.
PS. A family story says Tedford's wife died at sea on way to Australia early 1952. Do you know where I might find records of burials at sea?
Thanks again, MM
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Not sure if you've seen this but the first paragraph is quite interesting!!!
http://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/orr-sydney-sparkes-11314
Possible birth for Sydney (no matter what he claimed!)
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FBTN-NMW
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Wow! It's amazing and I can't drag myself away. How do you find this stuff?
Children you have given me Mary Jane and James. I also have one unknown child and Sarah 1886-1818 and Arthur1884-?
The Thetford Young bit is fascinating but I'm still a bit mixed up with it all. Where does Roseanna Orr fit in?
I still think Samuel's birth entry show's Robert born in Ballyhackamore but now I have birth dates I could perhaps make a visit to PRONI to get verification.
Margaret Masson is a great help as some time ago I found an Arthur Orr going to US and stayed with a Margaret Masson. It was East coast but will have to trawl back through my notebooks for detail now that I know it is a match.
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Sadly we have lots about Sydney's sad case although no contact with his family for decades.
His story is one reason to trace the roots once and for all.
MM
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I still think Samuel's birth entry show's Robert born in Ballyhackamore but now I have birth dates I could perhaps make a visit to PRONI to get verification.
Irish birth certificates DO NOT list father's birthplace. The LDS format is deceptive. When a child was born at home the date and place of birth are listed on the certificate. If the birth takes place at a different address from the parents' residence (hospital, grandmother's house, etc.) the date and place of birth are still recorded but the parents' residence is listed along with father's name and occupation. For some reason the LDS database includes this detail as if it was the father's birthplace.
Will sort out a bit more and post again shortly.
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From the details we've found so far here's a rough family tree-
Thetford Young (c1808-23 Aug.1856), carpenter, married Rose (c1803-19 June 1885).
1. Robert Young (c1824-30 Dec.1866).
2. Eliza Young (c1849-after 1911) married Robert Orr.
?3. James Young (d.1926 N.Z.)- ?son James Thetford Young (born 1890)
4. Samuel Young (c1827), blacksmith.
5. Jane Young (c1838) m.(1860) James Cairns
6. Margaret Young (c1829) m.(1852) Robert McNall
?7. Tedford Young (c1850) m. Mary- family
& 4 children died young.
Eliza Young (c1849-after 1911) married (1866) Robert Orr
1. Robert (1867)
2. William John (1869)
3. James (1872)
4. Mary Jane (1874)
5. Samuel (1876)
6. Margaret "Maggie" (1879-1971 U.S.) m. ___ Masson.
7. Thetford (1882)
8. Arthur (c1885)- to U.S.
9. Sarah (c1887)
Thought there was a Roseanne Orr in the family but must have ruled her out earlier- sorry for the confusion.
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1901 directory- 1. Orr, Mrs. 3. Orr, Robt., blacksmith
http://www.lennonwylie.co.uk/wyzcomplete1901.htm
1907 directory- Mrs. Elizabeth Orr 1,3 Welland st.
http://www.lennonwylie.co.uk/wyzcomplete1907.htm
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Belfast Newsletter, 20 June 1885: Death- YOUNG- June 19, at her residence, Church Quarter, Dundonald, Rose, relict of the late Tedford Young. Her remains will be removed for interment in Dundonald Burying-ground to-morrow (Sunday) afternoon, at four o'clock. Friends will please accept this intimation. Samuel Young.
Samuel Young was likely a son of Tedford & Rose and he he is in 1901-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Dundonald/Church_Quarter/1223067
Note: more children of Tedford and Rose Young added (in blue) to earlier post. See again for details of Jane & Margaret- http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~rosdavies/SURNAMES/Young.htm
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Hi Maggiemay13,
I am a Tedford and my family hails from Belfast, same area as yours. I haven't had any luck so far figuring out the Tedford branch of Northern Ireland I am related to. We have been researching for a very long time. There must be a relationship between these families for sure.
Coincidentally, the only daughter and youngest in my James Tedford family was named Maggie May Elizabeth. :)
Best of luck in your research! Are you in Canada or the US/
Elizabetherin
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Marriage of Jane Young & James Cairns (1860)- https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FGFK-6HY
Son James Cairns born (1865) Scotland- https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FQTB-SZB
Marriage of Margaret Young & Robert McNall (1852)- https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FGF8-JSC
"The Will of Robert M'Nall late of Church Quarter Dundonald County Down Labourer who died 29 May 1895 at same place was proved at Belfast by David Kane and Samuel M'Cullough both of Church Quarter Dundonald Shoemakers the Executors." Will mentions son Robert, daughter Rachel and wife Margaret.
"Administration (with the Will) of the estate of Margaret M'Nall late of Churchquarter Dundonald County Down Widow who died 22 November 1903 granted at Belfast to Rachel M'Nall Spinster" Will dated 19 Mar.1901 says "as I am about to visit America" and mentions a daughter, Rachel.
See www.proni.gov.uk (Will Extracts)
Rachel McNall born c1856-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Dundonald/Dundonald_Town/1223103
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Down/Dundonald/Dundonald_Town/232247
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Another child of Tedford & Rose Young?
Tedford Young (c1850-after 1911), blacksmith, m.(1873) Mary Shaw (c1856-after 1911)
1911 census- 10 children/6 living.
1. Mary Eliza (1873- father transcribed as Ledford: https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/F5N3-4Q1
2. William John (c1879)
3. Jemima (c1883-after 1911)
4. Samuel (c1887)
5. Edgar (c1892-after 1911)
6. Annie "Daisy" (c1895-after 1911)
7. Tedford (c1898-aft.1911)
Marriage (1873)- brides Mary Shaw & Mary Davison on same page but daughter Mary Eliza's birth gives mother as Shaw:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FY31-S2L
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Pottinger/Upper_Newtownards_Road/1221344
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Down/Pottinger__part_of_/Newtownards_Road_Upper/229012
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Sorry... but there's more....
"Edward (Ted) Young, Dundonald, his blacksmiths shop behind the Central Inn closed 1900"
(this could be Tedford- if he was known as 'Ted' then perhaps it was assumed Ted was a nickname for Edward rather than shortened version of Tedford)
Photo of Dundonald Church of Ireland burial ground-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cleland_Mausoleum.jpg
An interesting site for Dundonald which I'd not seen before- the church in the photo is the old St. Elizabeth's Parish Church which is where your ancestors seem to have been members-
http://www.dundonaldrail.co.uk/dundonald.htm
Another bit about St. Elizabeth's-
http://revpatrickcomerford.blogspot.co.uk/2012/12/a-visit-to-stormont-and-dundonald.html
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Possible birth for Jemima Young (daughter of Tedford Young & Mary Shaw)-
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FBWW-535
Brother Edgar Young (1891)? https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FB6W-DZH
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Jane (Young) Cairns might have gone to Scotland then Ireland then to U.S. but this is not yet proven.
1870 census- New York, New York
James Cairns 30 Ire. hackdriver; Jane Cairns 30 Ire.; Mary A. Cairns 9 Ire.; William J. Cairns 7 Ire.; James Cairns 5 Scot.; Samuel Cairns 3 Ire.; Jane Cairns 1/2 NY.
1880 census- Pittsburgh, Allegheny, Pennsylvania
James Cairns 40 Ire. teamster; wife Jane Cairns 42 Ire.; dau. Mary Cairns 18 Ire. nursing; son William Cairns 16 Ire works at gold plating; son James Cairns 14 Scot.; dau. Jennie Cairns 8 NY; son Samuel Cairns 7 NY; son George Cairns 2 Penn.
1900 census- Indianapolis, Marion, Indiana (1920 census gives 1866 as date to U.S.)
James Cairns Oct.1865 Scot.; wife Nellie 30, son Harold 9, son Albert J. 2; dau. Jennie 7.
Wonder if George Shepherd Cairns, bapt.1878 Pittsburgh, parents James & Jane is the 2 year old George Cairns in 1880 census?
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/V2FT-5YH
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Hi
I am in Ireland so know the geography. Stunned at the pace this search is going now. 100 yrs in under 24 hrs and all while I am still learning how to communicate on this site.
I had found your Tedford family in census/street directories and speculated they were connected because of business (i.e. Livery Stables and Postry needed Blacksmiths) and location of residences. However it seems the Tedford/Thetford name comes the christian name of maternal GG; from another family a few miles further up the road.
Still plenty of research to do though so you never know what might come up.
Our families would at least have known each other as my g.grandfather was a postman.
Hope you make progress soon.
MM
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Hi Aghadowey,
All this is amazing. I know the old church and have just sent a message off to the Parish office to arrange to check out memorials etc. The links etc are great too but worry I am getting more than I can cope with just now. I need to pursue the Orr (McElrath?) line. The blog has a reference to a soldier called McElrath. Maybe there is a connection. I also found John & Jane McIlrath in Killinchy which might be in the mix somehow.
Also my husbands father suggested he was related to Orr's of Farranshane ("Remember Orr") They were farmers involved with linen but sons may also have trained as smiths. That is quite a way from Dundonald but Tedford Orr's brother William John did work as a mill manager in a mill owned by a friend of Co. Antrim Orr's. Apologies for rambling on.
MM
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Will probably take a while for it all the sink in, maggiemay, but not sure where you want to go with the search next.
Various branches can probably/possibly be traced further (especially those in U.S.) but without checking church records and other resources not online it will probably be difficult to get further back on the Young side. We could try sorting out the Orrs, of course, but Robert's father with a different surname might cause difficulties...
PRONI do have records for Dundonald C. of I. and this list indicates that at least some of the records start 1811-
http://irelandgenealogyprojects.rootsweb.ancestry.com/Old/coirecs.html
Added- was typing as you were posting so some of this overlaps what you've just written
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I will get to Proni sometime in the next month and was planning to look at records for Ballymaccarrett Presbyterian based on earlier plan. I will also check out Dundonald. Meantime a focus on the origins of Robert Orr and anything on Tedford Orr marriage/children would be good. I have his war record and have written to Superintendent at Drumee for details of his death and also the burser of SS Strathaird for 1952 trip to Tilbury. One thought he may have married while in England and my speculation of Sparkes and wife surname is based on son's details S S Orr 1914-1966.
Hope that helps.
Thanks again.
MM
I will be away for a few days now but check in again some evening next week.
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Birth certificate for either of Tedford Orr's sons will list mother's maiden name. Sparkes may have been a family name (not nec. Elizabeth's maiden name) or she might have been widowed when marrying Tedford.
Had a look for a mariage in England using just surname Orr for 1901/1925 but nothing likely shows up. Wonder if they did actually get married (remember Sidney claiming he might be illegitimate) or if the marriage took place somewhere other than England or Wales.
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Wonder if they did actually get married
We had similar thoughts? Another line of speculation took me to Sparkes 1901 census in Spamont street and 1911 with Bowman in Wellington Place both Belfast. Several Sparkes died from Spamont Street or nearby (buried in Belfast City Cemetery). ELizabeth 4/10/1895 age 7, Sydney aged 18 months in 1898 and one called William aged 16 in 1898 and others.
This may or may not be relevant to the search.
Many thanks again.
Hope you get time off for the bank hols.
Enjoy
MM
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Can I just ask for clarification before following any more leads- " I have found no record for marriage although wife may have been called Elizabeth (Sparkes)" Are you sure that Tedford's wife's first name was Elizabeth?
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Just tying up a loose end- Tedford Orr's brother Robert was alive in 1902 when he (Tedford) enlisted.
Possibly Robert- only problem is the family are Presbyterian rather than C. of I.
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Pottinger/Oakdale_Street/1221036
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Down/Pottinger__part_of_/Ravenscroft_Avenue/229174
Robert Orr (1869), blacksmith, m.(Oct./Dec.1889 Antrim) Mary Mina Graham.
1911- 9 children/6 living
1. Jemima/Mina Lynd (c1890)
2. Jennie/Jeannie Lynd (c1893)
3. Henry/Henry Graham (c1899)
4. Samuel (1900)
5. Marion (c1902)
6. John Graham (c1904)
Burial plot in Belfast City Cemetery- 1st three likely the 3 dead children mentioned in 1911 census-
Robert Orr, 2 4/12 yrs, 146 Albert Brdge Rd., 20 Feb.1894
John Graham Orr, 12 months, 1 Crystal St., died 7 Dec.1897
Elizabeth Orr, 5 4/12 yrs , 18 Oakdale St, died 23 July 1900
Mary Orr, 62 yrs., 8 Ravenscroft Ave., died 22 Apr.1929
Marion Robinson Orr, 29 yrs., 8 Ravenscroft Ave., died 2 May 1932
Robert Orr, 83 yrs., 8 Ravenscroft Ave., died 21 Mar.1951
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The ones in bold we have probably found in various records but that still leaves as few unaccounted for so far-
Eliza Young (c1849-1914) married (1866) Robert Orr (c1849-1888)
1911 census lists 9 children (all living)
1. Robert (1867) - possibly found in 1901 and 1911 see previous post
2. William John (1869-1940)
3. James (1872)- possibly found in 1901 and 1911 see next post
4. Mary Jane (1874-after 1931) m. Samuel Bailie (d.1931)- family.
5. Samuel (1876-1946)
6. Margaret "Maggie" (1879-1971 U.S.) m. ___ Masson.
7. Thetford (1882)
8. Arthur (c1885)- to U.S.
9. Sarah (c1887-1918)
Updated details added in blue
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Note: reply #29 has been updated in view of the new information posted below-
Possibly James, son of Robert & Elizabeth (Young) Orr- notice the address from cemetery record for little Maisie's death!
Here's a James Orr the correct age, blacksmith, and born Co.Down- but also Presbyterian-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Ormeau/Euston_Street/1210075
Same family in 1911 but a few intersting bits of information-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Down/Victoria__part_of_/Hills_Avenue/230699
James is now 'engine smith at works' and there's a son Arthur born in Fermanagh.
James Orr (c1872-aft.1911) m.(c1896) Mary Jane Campbell? (c1878-aft.1926)
Belfast City Cemetery- Maisie Orr (3 5/12) died 21 Aug.1915- address 1 Welland St.. Mary Jane Orr (82) died 20 July 1957- address 35 Upper Newtownards Road.
1. Agnes Victoria (July/Sept.1897 Belfast-aft.1911)
? Death: Agnes Orr (20) Jan./Mar.1917 Belfast 1/357
2. William (c1899-aft.1911)
3. Sarah (c1902-aft.1911)
4. Margaret (c1904-aft.1911)
5. Arthur Thomas (Oct./Dec.1905 Lisnaskea district, Fermanagh)
31 July 1926 “Regina” arr. Quebec from Belfast: Arthur Orr, 21, Co. Fermanagh, techinical engineering, uncle Neil McClelland Amherstburg Windsor Ontario, mother Mary Jane Orr 45 Upper Newtownards Rd Belfast.
6. Lizzie (c1908-aft.1911)
7. Maisie (1912-1915)
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Eliza Young (c1849-1914) married (1866) Robert Orr (c1849-1888).
Belfast Newsletter, 2 June 1888: ORR- June 1, at his residence, 15, Bread Street, Connswater, Belfast, Robert Orr, aged 44 years, deeply regretted. The remains of my beloved husband will be removed for interment in the Borough Cemetery, to-morrow (Sunday) afternoon, at half-past two o’clock. Friends will please accept this (the only) intimation. Eliza Orr
Note: daughter Sarah only a toddler when Robert Orr died.
Belfast City Cemetery: Robert Orr (39) 15 Bread St died 1 June 1888. Elizabeth Orr (61) 1 & 3 Welland St died 18 Jan.1914. Sarah Orr (31) 292 Albertbridge Rd, died 31 Mar.1918. William John Orr (70) died 28 Oct.1940 at Royal Victoria Hosp. home 20 Oakland Ave. Samuel Orr (69) died 28 Feb.1946 at 51 Lisburn Road home 153 Albertbridge Road
Sarah Orr-
Death certificate: Sarah Orr, spinster, age 31, telephone operator, died 21 Mar.1918 at 292 Albertbridge Rd., pulmonary phthisis (12 months certified), brother-in-law Samuel Bailie of same address present at death.
Belfast Newsletter, 2 Apr.1918: ORR- At the residence of her brother-in-law, 294, Albertbridge Road, Sarah (Cissie), youngest daughter of late Robert and Elizabeth Orr. Interment City Cemetery, leaving above address today (Tuesday), at 2 p.m. Deeply regretted. Samuel and M.J. Bailie; also, Brothers and Sisters
Samuel Orr-
Service records- 1 + 3 Welland St. Belfast, age 37, farrier... discharge address 8 Church St. East Belfast
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Nearly forgot Mary Jane :-[
Mary Jane Orr (1874-after 1931) m.(c1901) Samuel Bailie (c1871-1931)
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Pottinger/Albertbridge_Road/1214465
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Down/Pottinger__part_of_/Albertbridge_Road/219717
Bailie Samuel of 294 Albertbridge Road Belfast grocer died 19 May 1931 at The Royal Victoria Hospital Belfast Probate Belfast 23 June to Mary Jane Bailie the widow and Samuel Bailie grocer. Effects £368 0s. 9d.
1. Mary Elizabeth Bailie (c1904-aft.1911)
2. Samuel Bailie (c1910-aft.1931)
3. child d. bef.1911
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Hello Again
Thanks for all that info. I already had some of this stuff on my Ancestry tree but it's all coming together much better now.
Some responses.
The christian name Elizabeth comes from two sources; Sydney's statement & passenger list for P&O SS Strathaird from Tilbury in 1952. The story goes that she died on her way out to visit Sydney. I do not have any verification of this as yet.
Robert Orr and family is definitely Tedford's eldest brother as he is named with same address on Army papers in 1902. Changing from CofI to Presbyterian/Methodist etc and vice versa was common enough over the years for one reason or another. The whole family in Welland Street and surrounding area are listed as Presbyterian.
MM
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Can I just ask for clarification before following any more leads- " I have found no record for marriage although wife may have been called Elizabeth (Sparkes)" Are you sure that Tedford's wife's first name was Elizabeth?
Confirmed
ELizabeth Orr born Co Armagh, died on 13 September 1952 aged 77 on Strathaird bound for Melbourne.
Probable burial in Victoria Australia.
Possible birth regd. 1872 at Tartaraghan Armagh to William and Mary Sparks
Nothing on marriage or anything else so far.
MM
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Brilliant news :)
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Hi,
I am a NZ descendant of James Young who migrated to New Zealand in 1859.
His parents were Thetford Young (d 1856) and Rose Hare (b 1805 d 1885).
He had 4 daughters and 3 sons who lived to adult age. One of his sons, James Thetford Young (b 1890 d 1960) was my paternal grandfather.
James' brother, William John Young (b 1834 d 1905) also migrated to New Zealand a bit later.
Interestingly, one of William's sons , Robert Young, visited his Dundonald relatives while on leave during WW1. There he met and later married his 2nd cousin, Agnes "Queenie" Orr , a daughter of Robert Orr and Elizabeth Young. I have met their grand daughter, Robyn, who lives in Brisbane.
Robyn has done a lot of research into the Young and Orr geneology. She even showed my a copy of the Last Will of Thetford Young.
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Delighted to hear from you and to find out more about the family. It would be great to have contact with Robyn too to know more about her research.
I am still in Belfast NI and I have visited the Young grave in Dundonald.
Whereabouts in NZ are you. I did come across a death for a Thetford Young in NZ maybe a couple of years ago. Would that be your family? Love to know more.
Best wishes.
MM
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Hi Maggiemay,
Yes my father, James Thetford Young (b 1926) passed away 13 September 2012.
I, too, have visited the Young grave at St Elizabeth's . The first time was in 1979 and I met the Rector of the Church (Rev Frizzell) who was kind enough to show me the baptism record of my ancestor, James Young.
More about my family later but I will send an email to Robyn and draw her attention to this thread so that she might add to it.
I look forward to hearing more about my Ulster relatives.
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Thank you. I will pick this up again later in the week.
Best wishes
MM
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Hi
I have had another look at my records and think Agnes more likely to be a granddaughter of Robert Orr and Eliza Young as i have previously accounted for all of their children. I could be wrong as family did get mixed up across the generations but her's my theory. William John Young your Great Uncle would be a first cousin of my husband's grandfather Thetford aka Tedford Orr. Thetford's brother James had a daughter called Agnes Victoria Orr (which could account for the Queenie) See 1911 census details below. This would make her a second cousin of William's son, Robert Young and of marrying age during WW1. The family did stay close with their grandmother as seen in burial records for sister Maisie. Agnes would be the oldest and could have lived with her Grandmother. Do you think this Agnes is Robyn's grandmother? That would mean she shares her great grandmother with us and we must both share GGGrandparents with you in Thetford Young and Rose Hare (never knew her maiden name before).
Look forward to more family news.
Regards
MM
James Orr (c1872-aft.1911) m.(c1896) Mary Jane Campbell? (c1878-aft.1926)
Belfast City Cemetery- Maisie Orr (3 5/12) died 21 Aug.1915- address 1 Welland St.. Mary Jane Orr (82) died 20 July 1957- address 35 Upper Newtownards Road.
1. Agnes Victoria (July/Sept.1897 Belfast-aft.1911)
? Death: Agnes Orr (20) Jan./Mar.1917 Belfast 1/357
2. William (c1899-aft.1911)
3. Sarah (c1902-aft.1911)
4. Margaret (c1904-aft.1911)
5. Arthur Thomas (Oct./Dec.1905 Lisnaskea district, Fermanagh)
31 July 1926 “Regina” arr. Quebec from Belfast: Arthur Orr, 21, Co. Fermanagh, techinical engineering, uncle Neil McClelland Amherstburg Windsor Ontario, mother Mary Jane Orr 45 Upper Newtownards Rd Belfast.
6. Lizzie (c1908-aft.1911)
7. Maisie (1912-1915)
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James Orr (c1872-aft.1911) m.(c1896) Mary Jane Campbell? (c1878-aft.1926)
Belfast City Cemetery- Maisie Orr (3 5/12) died 21 Aug.1915- address 1 Welland St.. Mary Jane Orr (82) died 20 July 1957- address 35 Upper Newtownards Road.
1. Agnes Victoria (July/Sept.1897 Belfast-aft.1911)
? Death: Agnes Orr (20) Jan./Mar.1917 Belfast 1/357
2. William (c1899-aft.1911)
3. Sarah (c1902-aft.1911)
4. Margaret (c1904-aft.1911)
5. Arthur Thomas (Oct./Dec.1905 Lisnaskea district, Fermanagh)
31 July 1926 “Regina” arr. Quebec from Belfast: Arthur Orr, 21, Co. Fermanagh, techinical engineering, uncle Neil McClelland Amherstburg Windsor Ontario, mother Mary Jane Orr 45 Upper Newtownards Rd Belfast.
6. Lizzie (c1908-aft.1911)
7. Maisie (1912-1915)
The above details copied from my post (reply #30). I've also posted lots of other information on here.
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Hi maggiemay & aghadowey,
Today I sent an email to Janice, another 'Young' relative. I only met Janice about 2 years ago because she saw my father's death notice in the newspaper.
I think her grandfather was William John Young (b 1834 d 1905) and she too has done some research on the Youngs. She has a copy of a wedding photo of Robert Young & Agnes Victoria Orr.
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Hello Sea Jade and Aghadowey,
first of all apologies for not giving credit to Aghadowey for the details I copied to you in last post. It is thanks to A's help during my previous visits to the site that I have discovered details of the Orr Young family.
It is great to be hearing more and knowing there are living relatives somewhere. It would be wonderful to see the wedding photo, have dates etc. Agnes would be my father in law's (William Orr, 1917-1980) 1st cousin.
MM
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Maggiemay, sorry I haven't been able to contact Robyn yet. I have her phone number but I can't find her email address. I've tried to phone her but no luck so far.
I wanted Robyn to tell the story about her grandparents because it is quite a sad tale. Queenie died of Tuberculosis (in Australia?) when her 3 kids were young. Then Robert died not much later and the kids were brought up as orphans and had a tough time of it. I met Maureen (the youngest and Robyn's Mum) a couple of times but she passed away about 5-6 years ago.
BTW Janice has responded to my email and she has looked at this thread with much interest.
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Hi there Sea Jade and MaggieMay
I am a descendant of William John YOUNG, and I am researching my Young Ancestors and wanting to research his siblings. Found this message about the Orr and Young.
Would really like to correspond with you.. Hope you are still there. Have also been trying to make contact with Lexie (Mum tells me she is Robyn's daughter).
Hoping your emails are still active and you receive this message.
Best regards
Kathy in New Zealand
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Hi Kathy,
I have some contact details for Robyn Scott and her daughter Lexie in Brisbane.
I last met up with them about 6 years ago.
Give me a call on (*)
Maggie May - how are you? Sorry, but nothing more to add at the moment as I still haven't been able to get hold of Robyn.
(*) Moderator Comment: telephone number removed in accordance with RootsChat policy.
Please use the Personal Message (PM) system for exchanging personal data.
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Hi Sea Jade
Have sent you a personal message.
Thank you moderator - for the thinking of our privacy. I have not used Rootschat much and had not even realised there was a PM function.
Talk soon.
Kathy
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hi Kathy and Sea Jade,
I am still on same email but not visited Roots for a long time and have no more research results to report. Trying to work out how to send a PM.
Best wishes
MM
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Hi MaggieMay
Have sent you a PM. To send a PM, click on the users name, then it will come up with an option to send a PM. Talk soon
Regards
Kathy
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Thank you, I'm not much good with this stuff.
MM
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There's a very interesting and informative history of Dundonald - Peter Carr " ' The Most Unpretending of Places'. A History of Dundonald, County Down", 1987, White Row Press Ltd., Dundonald, Belfast.
I've just checked the index, and Thetford Young gets a couple of mentions in the book.
"In Dundonald the Select Vestry (of the parish church) ... was made up of middling farmers ... and occasional tradesmen like the carpenter Thetford Young."
The minutes for 1842-44 have this entry -
"To Thetford Young for three Coffins - 1:10:0.
Harry
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Thanks for that Harry - I saw a copy of that book a few years ago.
According to White Row it was reprinted in 1987 but sold out.
I see there are some available second hand.
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Hi Maggiemay
Thought I would post this here, rather than through our PM correspondence, in case someone is looking it up in the future. As you know I am working through information regarding our Young family tree and just now I am researching Elizabeth Young and Robert Orr.
I popped "Tedford Orr" into britishnewspapers and got a hit, sorry no sub at present so cannot look it up for you - but it appears Elizabeth Sparkes' marriage to Tedford is not her first marriage.
"6 Sep 1928, Belfast News-letter, Albert Sparks, interment notice later, ..... by his Mother and Stepfather, Elizabeth and Tedford Orr".
PRONI no will image but admin to Elizabeth Orr married woman
Regards
Kathy
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Hmmm Now it gets weird. Found an ancestry tree with him, but mother not an Elizabeth but he is buried at Drumee, Castlewellan - which I think where you found Thetford Orr buried!
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Hi Maggiemay
... it appears Elizabeth Sparkes' marriage to Tedford is not her first marriage.
"6 Sep 1928, Belfast News-letter, Albert Sparks, interment notice later, ..... by his Mother and Stepfather, Elizabeth and Tedford Orr".
PRONI no will image but admin to Elizabeth Orr married woman
Sparks Albert of Ballybannon Annsborough county Down draper's assistant died 6 September 1928 at Down County Infirmary Administration Belfast 21 December to Elizabeth Orr married woman. Effects £3.
There was no Will- if there had been it would have said probate rather than administration.
According to GRONI's database, Albert Sparks died 5 Sept.1928 and was 25 years old (so born c1903).
The closest Albert Spark(e)s I could find in 1911 census is this one with sister Elizabeth Anne- his age slightly off- but she's 32 years old-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Antrim/Cromac/Artana_Street/158286
Added-
same family here in 1901 without Elizabeth Anne in household-
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Armagh/Ballymartrim/Cullentragh/1011735
Eliza Anne Sparks in 1901- assistant matron Belfast Prison?
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Clifton/Crumlin_Road/961272
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Birth found for Albert Cahill 1st April 1905 Amargh
Father: Patrick Cahill, Prison Warder of College Hall
Mother: Eliza Ann Cahill formerly Sparks
Cannot find a marriage...
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I'm assuming you have the birth record for Sydney....
6 Dec 1914 Belfast Sydney Sparks
No father recorded
Mother: Lizzie Sparks - a seamstress
Note: Re-registered under the legitimacy act at no 218
on 31 Dec 1945.