RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: danielle2102 on Thursday 02 May 13 04:53 BST (UK)
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Okay so I am working on my grandmother’s line there Is 4 births registered in the same district 3 of them are sisters, I found another one on there registered in the same district I found this ladies death certificate and father is Listed as Joseph and mother Emma. I know death certificates are not always accurate so the mother's name may not be correct …. I know it is very possible they aren’t related but just exhausting the possibility. I found this ladies marriage certificate too…other then ordering her birth certificate how would I find out if she is related??
the three I have found are
Beatrice Christina Kirby b. 21 aug 1914 Western Australia
BERYL J Kirby b. 1923 Western Australia
Thelma Joy Kirby b. 1922 Western Australia
All were born in the district of Blackwood
and the one I was trying to find out about was
Elsie May Kirby
The other question and I am not sure where to look how would I find the name of their children?? eek I feel so dumb!
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A little more information would help us to help you.
Where and when did these births occur?
Cando :)
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Previous post to save duplicate searching
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,630140.msg4791186.html#msg4791186
Cando :)
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Previous post to save duplicate searching
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,630140.msg4791186.html#msg4791186
Cando :)
yes it never answered the question and I am asking for assistance with how else I could find out of this 4th birth registered could be related
and also assistance on where or how I can search for the children of Thelma and Beryl
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Did you purchase the death certificate of Joseph KIRBY as suggested in the linked thread? It would list all the children both living and deceased of the marriage.
KIRBY Joseph Atkins
1972 83 years Reg#1068/72
District Perth
Cando
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Reply#6 from the linked thread...
Joseph or Christina's death certificates should list all the issue of his marriage
KIRBY Christina Marie
67 years Father Joseph Mother Unknown
District Perth Reg#1802 1956
Burial
http://www2.mcb.wa.gov.au/NameSearch/details.php?id=KB00105121
KIRBY Joseph Atkins Kirby 83 years
District Perth Reg#1068/72
Burial
http://www2.mcb.wa.gov.au/NameSearch/details.php?id=KB00144271
Application forms
http://www.bdm.dotag.wa.gov.au/A/application_forms.aspx?uid=9700-1192-2181-1982
Had a quick look for a death notice for Christina but there doesn't appear to be one.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper
Cando
Cheers
Cando
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Obviously if I purchased it I would have not asked if there was another way to find out.
So basically from this I am guessing the only way to find out is to get death certs of all the sisters to find out their children's names!
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Have you tried family notices in Trove? At times they mention family members by name.
Otherwise as Cando said a cert. might be the only way.
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thanks
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Also have to remember that even if the sisters children were found, their names couldnt be posted on the forum as they could still be alive.
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Yes I do realise that but when people in the past have found information that could be related to a living person they have private messaged.
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Have you tried family notices in Trove? At times they mention family members by name.
For me Trove has the births with fathers name and a place of birth (or at least district) - so I know a rough date .. but not usually the child's name .. then I use that to check the birth name using the registry .. without purchasing the full thing - just an online search for the ref number?
That might work .. however the cost of one death certificate giving all the children is fairly cost effective. And it should not miss any.
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I want to eventually purchase the death certificates but they do get rather pricey and from what I was told it may not have all the names on there anyway because it is only what information is given and is often accurate. I have looked a little into TROVE but I haven't found it of much help with the Kirby side of the family, ideally if my grandparents didn't die when I was young I would of been able to pick their brains.
I have found them on BDM but it doesn't show parent's names on the website :( and for the one that I was trying to rule out the father's name is the same (but a common name) but not the mother's but have also been told this could also be down to error as well as to who gives the information.
Thanks for the assistance!
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Have you tried family notices in Trove? At times they mention family members by name.
For me Trove has the births with fathers name and a place of birth (or at least district) - so I know a rough date .. but not usually the child's name .. then I use that to check the birth name using the registry .. without purchasing the full thing - just an online search for the ref number?
That might work .. however the cost of one death certificate giving all the children is fairly cost effective. And it should not miss any.
Yes i have seen notices of births like that as well. I have come across death notices that have all the kids married names etc as well. THEN there was the death notice i once found which stated..
[Cant remember his name so i'll call him Jim]
Jim Jones is dead :o
That was it nothing else in the notice ;D ;D
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Well that proves my point then lol
That is classic though...damn! Seriously though I would have though death certificates would have to have a fair bit of accuracy :(
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When one of the most experienced VOLUNTEERS asks a question, there is usually a good reason!
It may pay you to keep this in mind when you ask for assistance. ;D
Neil 8)
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When one of the most experienced VOLUNTEERS asks a question, there is usually a good reason!
It may pay you to keep this in mind when you ask for assistance. ;D
Neil 8)
Well obviously I kept it in mind. Thanks for your input!
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Danielle have you tried the Western Australia State Library to see if they have a death notice for the parents?
http://www.slwa.wa.gov.au/
I have never contacted them before so i dont know what they are like to work with but could be worth a try maybe.
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This is accurate data from NSW BDM it shows exactly what people know about the deceased. ::)
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/cgi-bin/IndexSearch?form=IndexingSearch&cgiurl=%2Fcgi-bin%2FIndex%2FIndexingBirth.cgi&sname=unknown&gname=&fname=&mname=&event=deaths&frange=1850&trange=1982&place=&x=22&y=10&SessionID=39509295
Neil... ;D
PS I hope you keep me in mind also ::)
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My main information I wanted to know wasn't really related to previous post which was what sort of research could I do to find children or my grandmother's siblings. I have found this website very useful in the past on ideas of how to research but this time finding people more abrupt then anything!
So if anyone is able to give any positive information that has not already been listed, I would be forever greatful for the assistance. websites etc.. I didn't know if there was a way to search for their children (like where you could search mother/fathers name to get children's names). But guessing not by the responses!
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Danielle have you tried the Western Australia State Library to see if they have a death notice for the parents?
http://www.slwa.wa.gov.au/
I have never contacted them before so i dont know what they are like to work with but could be worth a try maybe.
thanks I have used different state libraries for other families didn't even click will try searching there, anything is better then nothing.
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My main information I wanted to know wasn't really related to previous post which was what sort of research could I do to find children or my grandmother's siblings. I have found this website very useful in the past on ideas of how to research but this time finding people more abrupt then anything!
So if anyone is able to give any positive information that has not already been listed, I would be forever greatful for the assistance. websites etc.. I didn't know if there was a way to search for their children (like where you could search mother/fathers name to get children's names). But guessing not by the responses!
I spent a lot of time on researching on the linked thread and the suggestion was made that to progress with your research ie find all the names of the children of Joseph Atkins KIRBY you would need to purchase either his or his wife's death certificates.
Marriage Information is available both on
http://www.bdm.dotag.wa.gov.au/_apps/pioneersindex/default.aspx
and to 1965
http://www.wamarriage.info/default.aspx
Birth information is available to 1932 however parents names are not listed post 1905
http://www.bdm.dotag.wa.gov.au/_apps/pioneersindex/default.aspx
Thelma's and Beryl's births are within the last 100 years and therefore their children would also.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,368728.msg2632620.html#msg2632620
May I suggest you read through the links that are available for research in Western Australia
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,369921.0.html
Good luck with your research
Cando
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Yes i know the children of Joseph Kirby and I am aware that I will have to purchase to see if the other child may be related or if it just happens to be another born in the district, that I already had sorted from last time, thank-you. Now as I stated I am now looking for the information or how to look for their cousins, clearly I may just have to wait for more time to lapse, thanks for the links will just keep searching.
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You are obviously seeking information about living persons and we are unable to assist with that.
Did you find the Reverse Marriage Index any help?
Did you notice the last post on the linked thread? I thought perhaps you may have missed it as there was no response ;)
Cando
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Well I don't know if they are living, they could very well not be. I do realise if they are people are unable to assist.
Haven't had any luck with the reverse marriage because of the fact I don't even know their names, however I do know they had kids.
Yes I did notice the last response on the other post although, I tend to believe the birth cert over the death one.
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thanks for the assistance all...will keep trying, just thought there might of been a site to search that sort of information, that I didn't know about! Cheers :)
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aven't had any luck with the reverse marriage because of the fact I don't even know their names, however I do know they had kids.
Danielle
This is the reason you need either Christine or Joseph's death certificate. I would opt for Christine's as the informant would more than likely be Joseph and all the children would be noted. Yes I certainly understand that certificates are expensive but one certificate would open up your research and then we could help you further.
You may like to contact the SLWA for death and funeral notices lookups in WA metropolitan newspapers
http://www.slwa.wa.gov.au/about_us/contact_us
I would also suggest a lookup in the local newspapers
http://www.newspapers.com.au/bridgetown.html
Give as much detail as possible it their dates of deaths and where they were buried. You have that on this thread and the linked thread.
I suggest you also contact - local knowledge is invaluable when researching family history.
http://bridgetownwahistory.com/
Cando
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Oh yes it's not one certificate I was worried about. I meant I would probably have to purchase the sister's certificates too to find the children's names.
thanks will check out the links
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Well I would start with Christine's death certificate.
I meant I would probably have to purchase the sister's certificates too to find the children's names.
You would have to purchase the youngest sister's birth certificate to find that and you are not sure who is the youngest sister.
Danielle may I ask...you can pm me if you wish....from which child are you descended? With a little more information I may be able to help you without breaching the living persons policy on rootschat. I have checked all the electoral rolls listings to their death and wondered if there was also a son? May just be a coincidence of a KIRBY living in the same street in Bridgetown. Let's not go off at a tangent just yet.
Cando
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I have the birth years and if it is only the 3 girls (which at this stage I am saying yes, and the other one would be older anyway, according to BDM), then I do know Joy (Thelma) was the youngest and she was the last to die, well from my personal research.
Beatrice was my grandmother. Where is the best place to search electoral rolls? I have yet to do anything like that, but sounds like it might be a way to get a fair bit of information.
Danielle
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I have the birth years and if it is only the 3 girls (which at this stage I am saying yes, and the other one would be older anyway, according to BDM), then I do know Joy (Thelma) was the youngest and she was the last to die, well from my personal research.
Beatrice was my grandmother. Where is the best place to search electoral rolls? I have yet to do anything like that, but sounds like it might be a way to get a fair bit of information.
Danielle
Hi there,
May I please butt in .... and in doing so, may I please re-assure danielle that Cando is giving you the very best of advice at all times. I have not ever met any RChatter, face to face, so I cannot re-assure you that Cando is tall or short or is young or old or is anything like what either you or I may imagine Cando to look like. BUT I can categorically state that Cando's depth of knowledge and understanding of family history researching of Australian records is of the very highest order possible. I am very sure that many other RChatters on this Aussie Board have the same respect as me for Cando's efforts to help every poster on this Board.
You are obviously seeking information about living persons and we are unable to assist with that.
Did you find the Reverse Marriage Index any help?
Did you notice the last post on the linked thread? I thought perhaps you may have missed it as there was no response ;)
Cando
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Well I don't know if they are living, they could very well not be. I do realise if they are people are unable to assist.
Haven't had any luck with the reverse marriage because of the fact I don't even know their names, however I do know they had kids.
Yes I did notice the last response on the other post although, I tend to believe the birth cert over the death one.
I think that in respect of Australia's (at Commonwealth and at various State levels) it is always best to work on the assumption that the person born less than 110 years ago is still living UNLESS you can prove they are NO LONGER LIVING, rather than trying to prove they are already deceased. In that way there is NO opportunity for anyone to infringe the person's lawful right to the expectation of privacy of the individual. Of course, there's RChat's own rules that must always be at the forefront of posts on RChat.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,368728.0.html At that very special thread (it is part of the threads permanently placed at the top of the Aussie Board), there's one reply that deals with Living Persons ..... Included in that reply are the following words :
If you are looking for living descendants, that is fine provided you do not provide details of these living persons. If you are providing details of someone we are likely to suspect may still be living, but you know is deceased, please state this
Fingers crossed that I am not making too much of a mountain out of a mole hill :) and that I am not causing too much embarassment to Cando in praising Cando's efforts. There's many other RChatters who are also great Aussie researchers too, but I suspect we all sit back and watch Cando's posts and say quietly to ourselves "Wish I was that good at researching family history"
Cheers, JM.
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Yes totally agree AND that is why the names in the post are of only of known deceased people. But thank you for your input I was well aware!
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Yes totally agree AND that is why the names in the post are of only of known deceased people. But thank you for your input I was well aware!
I am very pleased to learn that even though you are only 28 years old, you are already well aware of so many important issues.
Good luck with your family history research.
Cheers, JM
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WOW....I find that offensive but thank-you. I simply meant that yes I was aware of the privacy as I did read the posts before I started posting on this site, Nor have I breeched any living person's rights. But I appreciate you took the time to post.
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It was not my intention to cause offense, and I am sorry to learn that you have read it in that way. I was in fact praising you and initially re-assuring you about the RChatter who was offering to help you via the private message facility
Yes I do realise that but when people in the past have found information that could be related to a living person they have private messaged.
.
Cheers, JM
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Australian Electoral Rolls
1916
KIRBY Joseph Atkins Bridgetown Grocer
1925, 1931
KIRBY Christine Marie Blechynden Street, Bridgetown HD
KIRBY Joseph Atkins Blechynden Street, Bridgetown Grocer
1936
KIRBY Christine Marie Blenchynden Street, Bridgetown HD
KIRBY Joseph Atkins Steere Street, Bridgetown Storekeeper
Marriages
KIRBY Beatrice C
YOUNG Raymond D J
District Blackwood Reg#37 1940
KIRBY Beryl J
McINNES Thomas A
District Perth Reg#301 1943
Thomas's burial record - 1963
http://www2.mcb.wa.gov.au/NameSearch/details.php?id=KB00123097
1943
KIRBY Christine Marie Bridgetown HD
KIRBY Joseph Atkins Steer Street, Bridgetown Storekeeper
YOUNG Beatrice Christina Hampton Street, Bridgetown HD
YOUNG Raymond David James Bridgetown Railway Employee
Marriage
KIRBY Thelma Joy
BEATTY Maxwell G
District Blackwood Reg#65 1947
Thelma's burial record - she died 14 Jul 2003
http://www2.mcb.wa.gov.au/NameSearch/details.php?id=PB00006749
1949
BEATTY Maxwell George 15 John Street, Cottesloe Storeman
BEATTY Thelma Joy 15 John Street, Cottesloe HD
McINNES Beryl Jean Bridgetown HD
McINNES Thomas Augustine, McAlinden Street, Bridgetown Chemist
YOUNG Beatrice Christina Hampton Street Bridgetown HD
YOUNG Raymond David James Bridgetown Railway employee
Death
YOUNG Raymond David James
Father Joseph Mother Mary
District Northam Reg#69 1954
Marriage
YOUNG Beatrice Christine
ARMSTRONG Charles William
District Sussex Reg#42 1954
1954
ARMSTRONG Beatrice Christina 152 Ardross Street, Mt Pleasant HD
ARMSTRONG Charles William 152 Ardross Street, Mt Pleasant Storeman
McINNES Beryl Jean Queen Street Busselton HD
McINNES Thomas Augustine Queen Street Busselton Chemist
KIRBY Christine Marie Phillip Street, Bridgetown HD
KIRBY Joseph Atkins Steere Street, Bridgetown Storekeeper
1958
ARMSTRONG Beatrice Christina 152 Ardross Street, Mt Pleasant HD
ARMSTRONG Charles William 152 Ardross Street, Mt Pleasant Driver
BEATTY Maxwell George Lot 52 Coronation Street, Bridgetown Shop assistant
BEATTY Thelma Joy Lot 52 Coronation Street, Bridgetown HD
KIRBY Joseph Atkins 152 Ardross Street, Mt Pleasant No occupation
McINNES Beryl Jean 77 Dorset Street Busselton HD
McINNES Thomas Augustine 77 Dorset Street Busselton Chemist
More to come....
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Well that proves my point then lol
That is classic though...damn! Seriously though I would have though death certificates would have to have a fair bit of accuracy :(
My mothers has the wrong marriage date (years) and the wrong husbands name ...
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NSW BDM issued death certs (or official transcriptions) have sections where the information MUST be accurately recorded ..... Cause of death, duration of illness, how the body is disposed of, where and when .... As a direct consequence, you can confirm the cemetery or crematorium, sometimes the denomination, and also look for possible inherited diseases etc.
The information that is often considered "questionable" is that part of the dc that names the informant's family history. It can be flawed, but the person providing the information is required to sign a statement showing they believe it to be true. As that informant is often a family member, it is information given at a time of grief, and is usually given to the funeral director at the same time as the arrangements for the funeral are being made. Thus the family member providing it is often more concerned with those arrangements, than with the questions about the deceased's family history.
From my point of view, it can be worthwhile working towards obtaining the dc, if only to see who was named as the parents, or the spouse/s or children by the informant. And from that to start to consider how well the informant knew any of the family. For example, (names changed to protect the innocent !) Freddy BONKERS died in NSW in 1938. His dc shows he was married twice and that the informant (Johnny, ie Freddy's stepson from the second marriage) did NOT know the name of the first wife, nor if any children from that first marriage.
In fact Freddy BONKERS had been married THREE times in NSW. First marriage produced at least 4 children, and the wife No 1 died in childbirth. Second marriage was to next door neighbour, a widow with 3 of her own. The second marriage for Freddy BONKERS produced 2 more children, and wife No 2 quit leaving Freddy with those 2. Freddy obtained a NSW divorce, citing a co-respondent. Freddy moved several streets away, and then married a divorcee. Mrs Bonkers # 3 died several months earlier than Freddy. Her son (Johnny, the informant on Freddy's dc) seems to have got all of HER details down fairly accurately on her dc. But not Freddy's ....
But the headstone on Freddy's grave does note ALL his own children from each marriage.... They are just NOT noted on Freddy's NSW BDM dc.
So, there are advantages to seeking out dcs where the civil BDM regulations extend to providing certified information that goes further than just the registration of a death...
So, the amount of information on the dc depends on the regulations applicable for the state/territory where the death occurred. So for example, England & Wales certs have very little info, but Scottish certs are detailed. South Australia's certs have very little information but Victoria, NSW, Qld, WA are detailed. As an aside, Victoria's certificates are perhaps the most detailed in the whole world.
Cheers, JM
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Where is the best place to search electoral rolls? I have yet to do anything like that, but sounds like it might be a way to get a fair bit of information.
http://www.slwa.wa.gov.au/find/guides/wa_history/electoral_rolls
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,369921.0.html Many good links at that Resources thread.... including :
WA State Library
http://www.slwa.wa.gov.au/find/guides/family_history/australia/western_australia
Danielle have you tried the Western Australia State Library to see if they have a death notice for the parents?
http://www.slwa.wa.gov.au/
I have never contacted them before so i dont know what they are like to work with but could be worth a try maybe.
thanks I have used different state libraries for other families didn't even click will try searching there, anything is better then nothing.
Long before the Internet provided armchair access for family history seekers to find some images online, the Public Libraries were famous as places for the general public to actually go to, and to personally seek out and to try to find out any piece of significant information at all, including family history back in the era when it was NOT among the top ten hobbies.
Adding : I am sorry to read that you have not found Trove to be of much help... I can see that the WA fees for "Death certificate (including a search over any period not exceeding ten years) - $44"
http://www.bdm.dotag.wa.gov.au/D/death_fees.aspx So if you put $1 aside each week for the next 44 weeks ..... :)
I want to eventually purchase the death certificates but they do get rather pricey and from what I was told it may not have all the names on there anyway because it is only what information is given and is often accurate. I have looked a little into TROVE but I haven't found it of much help with the Kirby side of the family, ideally if my grandparents didn't die when I was young I would of been able to pick their brains.
I have found them on BDM but it doesn't show parent's names on the website :( and for the one that I was trying to rule out the father's name is the same (but a common name) but not the mother's but have also been told this could also be down to error as well as to who gives the information.
Thanks for the assistance!
Cheers, JM