RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wiltshire => England => Wiltshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Roy G on Wednesday 01 May 13 09:30 BST (UK)
-
This is not a person search, it is an attempt to locate a house that has since been renamed in the Wiltshire village of Winterbourne Stoke.
My ancestors the Grants, lived in a house called Toomers in Winterborne Stoke for half a century, perhaps more.
In 1840, my ancestor, farmer George Grant (1757-1840) left it to his son John Grant and grandson Jakob who were living there at the time and it is presumed it was handed on to various members of the Grant family for a good many years after that. The Tithe apportionment of 1841 has John living in plot 147, but I do not have a copy of the original tithe map to compare it with, only a later map done by the Ordnance Survey and another done for the 1910 property survey which both outline plot 147 as it was in those years. Two decades ago I felt sure that I had positively identified Toomers, but now that identification has been called into question.
I do have a copy of a page from the 1841 census (HO 107 1167 p5) which shows John & family, but is otherwise unhelpful for it just gives the address as 'Stoke.' Are there any later Winterbourne Stoke censuses, street directories or electoral roles that not only give an address, but also show the name of the house the family is occupying? If I can find Toomers on any one of those and then relate it to neighboring properties which may still carry their original names, it may help me discover whether I did correctly identify the house in the first place or was hopelessly wrong.
Regards Roy G
-
Hi
1861 Winterbourne Stoke
HO107 RG9 1310 61 p1
On page 1 of the census is Benjamin Grant 31 Carpenter born Winterbourne Stoke
Start there you can browse thru (about a dozen dwellings named, no Toomer).
Ray
-
Hi
1871 Winterbourne Stoke
RG10 1943 61 p1
Sylvanus Grant 47 Farm Bailiff
Charles Lawford living in Vicarage House a few pages down
Again you can browse thru but no Toomer
Ray
-
Hi
1911
look for Frank Mould aged 64
He is page 1 of 143
-
Are you sure the house was called "Toomers"?
I ask because there was a Toomer family living at Winterbourne Stoke for many years!
-
Hi
1881
RG11 2063 64 p1-14
Again no Toomer
Ann Grant 62 on p7
Ray
-
Hi
There are Toomer families all over that part of Wiltshire.
Ray
-
Reading the history of Winterbourne Stoke
(http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=115447#s2)
it appears that the River Till (once called the Winterbourne!) flooded in 1841 and 16 houses were destroyed.
Another 5 or so houses were demolished in c1850, to make way for a new vicarage.
In a village of 300 (or so) people, that's a large chunk of the housing!
-
Hi
1851 HO107 1845 75 p3
Toomer Lane
George Grant (UnM) 44 Gardener
Elizabeth Grant 70 Widow mother annuitant
Next door Cabels House
Aforementioned (1861) Benjamin Grant 22 Carpenter and parents Benjamin/Elizabeth
Ray
-
Hi
Toomer Lane is very close to New Street according to 1851
New Street is still there, extension of Church Street.
Upper House, Church Street (currently for sale) built C1850 former rectory ......................... (KG's link?)
All "new" housing at New Street and of Church Street.
However some other buildings around Church Street/New Street worth checking out
ANYONE LIVE CLOSE? :)
Ray
-
Hi Ray. Thanks for being so busy on my behalf and for your personal message
I can see you are a little concerned where I got the house name Toomer from. To clear that up, an excerpt from George Grant's will penned in Winterbourne Stoke in 1838 and proved after he died in 1840, reads as follows.
....... First, I will that debts and burial expenses be paid and justified. I give, devise and bequeath to my son John Grant the sum of one hundred and fifty pounds and the cottage house and garden called Toomers, now in his occupation, but my will is that my grandson Jacob Grant is to have in his possession that part which he now occupies during their lives and hold it by without any interruption from his father.
(nb George Grant also owned Cables which he willed to his son James Grant)
It is my belief that Toomers became STRADDLES, but I am seeking verification.
Other info: Apart from Toomer's Lane in WBS, George Grant and his good friend Charles Toomer were both local Baptists out of Chitterne, and on record as attending several Baptist Meeting Houses in the locality.
Re the 1841 flooding of the River Till and 16 houses destroyed (I have it as a Salisbury Plain rapid thaw and ice melt) and I know that Jacob in the family was commended for his bravery. But I had no idea that 5 or so houses were demolished in c1850, to make way for a new vicarage. I'll try to get someone to follow that up for me.
Regards Roy G
-
Hi
1861 Jacob Grant living in Scotland Farm.
Scotland Lodge Farm still there opposite side of A303 to Berwick Lane.
"Scottish" links?
1851 Jacob Grant (unmarried 60) listed as "Chelsea Pensioner Farmer"
Ray
-
Yes Jacob did have Scottish links but not as the name 'Grant' would suggest. (My Grants had Wiltshire links for centuries)
Jacob Grant (son of George) born Chitterne 1787 joined the Royal Scotts Greys in 1804 and was pensioned off in 1821. He eventually made an honest woman out of his housekeeper Ann Lodge, the mother of his children, just before he died in 1853
Roy G
-
Hi I've recently discovered that I'm descended from Jacob Grant (1787-1853) through one if his illegitimate daughters with Ann Lodge. Is there any more info anyone could tell me about him? This thread came up when I searched his name
-
Yes. Jacob Grant, born Chitterne 1787, living in WBS, who EVENTUALLY married the mother of his 6 children Ann Lodge, is one of mine. I will send you a personal message for there is a lot to tell.
Roy G
-
My Louisa Dyer bap 2nd May 1854,married Frank Grant 1874 W/Stoke.he was I believe a carrier and farmer.
1901 he is age 50,living at Church St,whilst wife Louisa is the grocer with 2 eldest children,listed separately.
Do you have any info on this line, Thanks Brionne.
-
3.Frank b 22 Feb 1852 WBS d 1911
m Louisa Dyer Sept ¼ 1874
4.Ernest b 1875 WBS
4.Alfred b 1876 WBS
4.George b 1878 WBS
4.Edward W b 1800 WBS
4.Kathleen b 1884 WBS
INFO Frank b.1852
1881 census lists Frank 29yr, head, carrier married to Louisa 27yr b. 1854, WBS with children: *Ernest F.6yr b.1875, **Alfred 5yr b.1876, George 3yr b. 1878 and Edward W 9mths b. 1890/1 all at WBS.
1891 census lists Frank 39yr a farmer/carrier, Louisa 37yr, ***George 12yr, Edward 10yr, + Kathleen 7yr b.1884. Living with them is Ann (mother) 73yr
1901 census sees the family split
Frank 50yr, head, farmer
Louisa 48yr, head, grocer (own account), Edward 20yr a baker, Kathleen 17yr a shop assistant. Living with them is a Harold A.Dyer (cousin) 14yr a horse boy on farm and Beatrice A Waters visitor 15yr.
Frank died 1911
* Ernest
1891 census lists Ernest 16yr, as an apprentice (milliner?) living at South St, Wincanton.
1901 census lists him as a drapers assistant boarding at Market Place, Newbury, Berks age 26yr.
**Alfred
1891 census has Alfred 14yr, as a cabinet maker, boarding in the house of Henry & Eliza Burch, 11 Wilton Rd.
1901 census, 21yr, a cabinet maker, single, boarding in the house of George & Jasmah Dench.
***George
1901 census lists a George Grant 22yr (d.o.b.given as 1879), married (no mention of a wife) as head of household, a grocer, living at 17 Hill rd, Nth Wimbledon + a housekeeper and 4 grocers assistants.
Roy G
-
Thanks for that Roy ,,,,,Did Louisa Grant nee Dyer die age 87 in Salisbury 1941,its the only one that is a possible.There are so very many Dyer family members that originate from Winterbourne Stoke,so had left this one alone thanks again Brionne.
-
There were a lot of Grants in the locality as as you write Briony, so I would not be 100% certain that was our Louisa Grant nee Dyer dying in Salisbiry in 1941, but the sums seem to certainly suggest it was. The censuses give her a birth year of c1854 + age 87 = 1941 the year she died.
You may have also seen Frank's headstone in the churchyard at WBS. I recently discovered that he is recorded as having taken a shotgun to end his own life on 17th Feb 1911. I therefore find his burial unusual for I always thought some churches were reluctant to accept anyone who orchestrated their own demise.
see http://salisburyinquests.wordpress.com/1911-2/grant-frank/
If you carefully pick your way through the Coroner's very detailed report above you will find it contains numerous additional snippets of family information. I was able to deduce from it that Frank Grant (1852-1911) was a retired carrier living in the post office. Furthermore, the village blacksmith (Lewis Henry Dyer) was his nephew and his son Edward had only recently married Alice Gertrude Williams (Dec qtr 1910).
Roy G
-
Roy thanks very much for your time on this,because there were so many large families,in Winterborne Stoke,c1800/1911,its extremely difficult to trace accurately,the Salisbury Inquest list is a very helpful tool.Good luck with your own research,Brionne.
-
Hi
I have just found this site after looking up the Grants of WBS.
I am the great-granddaughter of Frank and Louisa Grant and great-great-granddaughter of Ann (Lodge) and Jacob Grant. My grandparents were Kathleen (Grant) and Hugo Lockyer and they had the shop on the 303 that is now the filling station and I lived there when I was born.
I am always pleased to hear anything about the family. My Mother and I did quite a lot of research into the family tree some years ago from the Church records.
Alison
-
Hi There Alison
I'm a WBS Grant too, going back to George and Rachel who were Baptists and arrived in WBS from Chitterne about 1797. Your relative, their son Jacob (former soldier who married your Ann Lodge .... albeit EVENTUALLY) and my John 'Shepherd' Grant were brothers. I'll send you a private message so we can swap e-mail addresses. If you also have Geni, you can look up my-our tree on that.
Regards Roy Grant
-
Just writing again Alison. My reply to your request for an exchange of info never prompted a response.
Roy Grant
-
Roy G:
Alison has only ever posted once, so cannot reply to personal messages, surely?
-
Thanks Chempat. I always thought that beginners could respond but not originate. Even so, a short message saying they were having difficulty on this side of Rootschat would have sufficed. Roy G
-
I don't think that newcomers with less than 3 posts can either receive or send personal messages. C.Alison may well be still waiting for your message.
-
By way of a somewhat belated update. I am a direct descendant of the original owner of "Toomers", ie before it passed to the Grant family. After Roy posted his original comment on this thread back in May 2013, I solved the mystery by consulting the Enclosures Map at the Wiltshire Archives. The Key to the plot numbers was included on the map itself, and it showed two plots under the heading of "Toomers Copyhold", but with George Grant's name written underneath: one allotment (plot 51) and one inclosure (plot 140) containing a dwelling. I then looked at the Tithe Map (signed/certified on 11 Jan 1841, a few days before the Great Flood) and immediately noticed that whilst the plots themselves were identical to those on the Enclosures Map, so instantly recognisable, the plot numbers were different. Plot 140 (Toomers) had been renumbered as Plot 147, and was owned and occupied by John Grant. Looking at later maps, a lot of the plots were still clearly identical, but yet again had different numbers - and this is what had caused all the confusion.
"Toomers" stood at the end of a narrow lane leading west from the old school on New Road/Church Rd. There was a row of five cottages on the left (just after the lane on the right to Manor Cottage) and Toomers stood on the opposite side, immediately after the last one. I have a photo of these five cottages, taken from the 1916 sale particulars of Manor Farm, but I don't know when they were demolished. They appear to have made way for New Road to be extended. Using the NLS Maps overlay facility, the Toomers dwelling house would have been in the front garden of 7 Meadow View, New Rd, although the plot itself would have included the field at the back where the sewage tank is located! there was no sign of the Toomer dwelling in 1877, according to the 1:250000 OS map surveyed in 1877.
-
Thanks Ann for your detailed input, which will be very helpful for any research for Winterbourne Stoke properties and land. Its quite something that this old post is still going. Brionne.
-
Only too pleased to share the fruits of my research with others who have a mutual interest. Even better when it's acknowledged - so thanks!