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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Lanarkshire => Topic started by: stewrat83 on Sunday 28 April 13 21:58 BST (UK)
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I wonder if someone can give me a new direction on this as I'm starting to go round in circles and can't see a way forward.
My maternal grandfather was always referred to in the family as having been an orphan. I understand "orphan" in those days could mean a lot of things other than both your parents had died.
He was born 26/12/1903 at 220 Hope St, Glasgow, registered as illegitimate by his mother Helen Wilson (hotel waitress). Here it looks like he was called Jamie Wilson.
He turns up in Kinloch Rannoch in the 1911 census in a boarding house with several other boys and a housekeeper. The story in the family is that the lady of Dunalastair Estate brought "orphaned" boys from Glasgow, gave them an education and a trade and jobs on the estate. It's quite likely his mother was still alive at this point - but not certain - and agreed to this boarding out.
Next (and only other) record is his marriage in 1930 when he is calling himself Ian Stewart Wilson, and listing his parents as Alexander Wilson (waiter) and Mary Wilson (ms Stewart) - both deceased.
So was he "adopted" by these people after 1911, and is the surname a coincidence or were they related to him already? Was his mother still alive then? Is it notable they were both dead by 1930 - or were they perhaps older when they adopted him?
Did he just make them both up?
Having his "new" mother's maiden name as his middle name suggests maybe not. He never spoke of his parents - maybe he thought of this couple as his real parents and they died - so he was a "real" orphan.
My problem is that so far I haven't been able to find a couple by that name - nor their deaths.
Neither have I been able to reliably place his birth mother in a family.
I've contacted the relevant dept in Glasgow Council about the adoptions or "boarding out" and twice they've said someone will reply but they never have. I've contacted Dunalastair Estate and they have no records.
Any suggestions for new avenues, approaches I might take to get past this block?
Thanks
Stewart
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There are several possibilties here. Perhaps he wasn't raised by his mother and didn't know the name of either parent so made up the names when he got married or perhaps he just provided the details he believed to be correct.
Are you sure you've got the correct birth certificate?
No luck finding a Helen Wilson but perhaps try Ellen Wilson or Helen/Ellen Stewart.
Another idea is to see if there was such a couple as Alexander Wilson and Mary Stewart but it looks like you've already thought of that.
Voting lists and directories might provide further clues.
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Hi Stewart,
Not got any direction yet, but how were you able to prove that Jamie born 1903 to mother Helen Wilson, is the same Ian Stewart Wilson who married, and his parents were Alexander Wilson and Mary Stewart. Are you thinking that Alexander Wilson is a sibling of Helen or father of Helen?
Tom
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The birth and marriage certificates came from my grandfathers documents.
He was known throughout his life as Ian but it was also known that his proper name was James - and he named his first son that.
Yes I'm thinking likely scenarios include Alexander Wilson could be a brother or parent of Helen, but it's not obvious what the sequence of events could have been.
In 1911 James/Ian was boarded out in Kinloch Rannoch - an understandable situation with a single parent mother, but not so much if he had been adopted by Alexander and Mary, so assume they are not in the picture then.
Given that he seems to have successfully learned a trade and worked as a joiner - and stayed in Kinloch Rannoch, meeting his wife there - its not clear at what point he would have needed Alexander and Helen to step in and adopt him, especially as it would have presumably had to have happened in a quite small window between 1911 and whenever he became independent.
I can imagine an uncle or grandparent adopting him, but would have thought it more likely to have happened before/instead of being boarded out.
All of which points to Alexander and Mary being fabricated. But it seems a big step to take the name of a made up adopted parent as your middle name - and to pass that name down as a middle name of your daughter (my mother). That makes them seem more likely to be real.
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Have you been able to find out:
- who was at 220 Hope St in 1901/1911?
- who was the lady of the Dunalastair Estate at the relevant time?
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Another question: who was the head of household at the boarding house in 1911?
I see from another thread of yours that the address was Craig Var cottage: www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,609185.10.html
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Maybe the couple who brought him could have been any relative / aunt /older sister/ older brother and his wife ect and he just thought they were his parents ?
I have two instances in my family were the older sister and her husband brings up 3 siblings as parents died there was an immense gap between the ages - as you have been looking for a married couple -could they have been some other sort of relatives even grandparents?
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220 Hope Street seems to have been multi-occupancy, with something like 26 schedules listed for 1901 - no I haven't been through them. That may have to wait until my next trip to the ScotlandsPeople centre.
The lady of the estate at that time would have been (according to the current incumbent) either Mrs Bunten (who hailed from Glasgow originally) or her daughter Jeannie de Sales La Terriere.
The Housekeeper at Craig Var (only adult listed) was Margaret Ross.
Looking that up has just reminded me of something that may be significant ...
In 1911, my grandfather is listed in the census as James Stewart Wilson, so it appears something significant had happened by then to change his name. I think the Ian/James may be somewhat interchangeable, but the Stewart middle name has appeared after birth.
Perhaps he had been already adopted by Alexander and Mary, been renamed, and then orphaned when they died - all before going to Kinloch Rannoch?
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Re a middle name which suddenly appears. There are various possibilities.
One is that it is the father's surname. It was quite common for an illegitimate child whose father does not appear on the birth certificate to have the father's surname there as a middle name.
Another possibility is that he was called after someone named James Stewart. I have come across a number of people called, e.g. after a maternal grandfather, say John Smith, where they are registered or, in pre 1855 instances, the baptism register calls them "John" and the "Smith" only appears later as a middle name. The trend for having middle names developed throughout the 19th century.
A third possibility, for older people, is that they just adopted a middle name in later life. I know of one person who did that as his wife and children all had middle names and he thought he should not miss out.
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Hi
"I've contacted the relevant dept in Glasgow Council about the adoptions or "boarding out" and twice they've said someone will reply but they never have. I've contacted Dunalastair Estate and they have no records."
I would send them an e-mail every week until you get an answer, I had a similar situation with my father's Industrial School Records, this was in England, I eventually got a result
Margp
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Was the birth cert you found issued at the time of Ian/James birth, implying it had been with him since birth, or was it issued later, say when your grandfather was trying to track down his origins?
It is interesting that Alexander Wilson was a waiter and Helen/Ellen was a waitress. Can you find an Alexander Wilson, waiter on 1901 or 1911 census? Alexander could have married (or remarried to Mary) after 1911, so you may not find him with Mary in 1911.
Another possibility is that your grandfather was keen to hide his illegitimacy when he married, so Alexander and Mary are the real names of his adoptive parents, but he just tagged on his own surname, which doesn't help you at all!
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Don't know if this is a 'red herring' but have found the following on 1901 census (I'm only able to view transcript):
9 Hutchison Street, Blythswood, Glasgow
Mary Wilson 21 Waitress in Hotel b. Deanston, Aberdeenshire (??)
Another site states Deanster, Aberdeenshire but from what I can glean Deanston is in Stirlingshire anyway.
Annette
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Hi
The attached may be informative:
http://www.blackshouse.demon.co.uk/Forgotten%20Scots.htm
Imber
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Hi,
Do you have his death cert? If so then what info does that have?
Sharon
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Death cert only reflects what the family knew - and includes (from memory) James and Ian.
Birth cert I have was issued in 1941 but refers to entry no 89 in the 1904 Blythswood register - which is where the illegitimate birth to Helen comes from.
I seems like some of the searches i need to do - by address, by occupation - are going to be expensive in ScotlandsPeople credits, so will need to be done when I next spend a day at the centre there.
But the biggest part of the problem (maybe) is not finding Alexander Wilson and Mary Stewart as a couple within any of the nets I have cast - perhaps I need to cast wider.
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Perth & Kinross archives may have the local school register. Might be worth investigating to see how he is recorded there.
Imber
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Hi All :)
Stewart, you can search the transcript (up to 1901) by address. For 1901, there are 101 entries showing at 220 Hope Street. Safe to say it was a large building with multi occupancy! No Wilsons showing there.
Not sure where you are based or how practical this may be for you to do in person. Have you considered checking the Poor Relief records? Assuming James was still in Glasgow when he was boarded out to Kinloch Rannoch. There may well be an application for relief that might reveal more personal family details, leading to him being boarded out to Kinloch Rannoch. Legal adoptions didn't begin in Scotland until 1930 - www.nas.gov.uk/guides/adoptions.asp You are unlikely to find a paper trail before this date, except for potentially I think, a poor relief record for him or his mother. Have a look at this link here regarding the Mitchell Library archives - parts 5/6 in particular cover poor relief applications - www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,522720.0.html
He was too young for WW1 service. You could consider applying for copies of his WW2 service papers to see what information he may have provided himself regarding parents and early years (schools etc).
I wonder why he went by the name of Ian? This is normally a variant of John -
www.whatsinaname.net/php/search.php?action=search2&search_name=ian Good that you seem to have the application for his birth cert from 1941, and the official connection to that Dec. 1903 birth.
Was James Roman Catholic?
Monica :)
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I dont hold out much hope from 220 Hope St - it feels like there was a lot of to and fro there, probably much turnover between census.
I'd forgotten about the 1930 adoption thing - I'm in Fife, other side of the country but a visit to Glasgow quite feasible for some dirt world research.
I think though John/Ian is well documented, James/John -> Ian is a thin line, especially within a context where names seem to have come and gone with a fluency we wouldn't recognise today.
I can't rule out him being born catholic, which would be especially amusing as I remember him in his masonic apron as an adult - given what I (don't) know of his life, his religion may have varied with his upbringing.
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Hi,
Just a wee note, being a Roman Catholic does not stop someone being a Mason.
Also, maybe I have missed something but have you actually got a copy of the original birth registration in 1904 (1903 Birth) on Scotlands People or from one of the Centres/Registry Offices in Scotland? Just wondered if there was a possible mistranscription of anything from the original entry to the duplicate certificate issued in 1941? Or possibly anything else noted on the original and missed on the duplicate?
Caroline
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I may have been getting my masons and my orange orders mixed up. Pretty sure he was a mason, but I just learned it was a James Wilson who formed the orange order so I need to go and find the photos to be sure there wasn't some reference in his naming! My memory is of him marching to church (of scotland) when visiting us in Langholm.
Yes, I do have the original as well as the later extract. There is info on the original that isn't on the extract - but it's things like mother's name etc that I have included here (above). The original looks to me like it says "Jamie" rather than James, but no other clues (though I note she took a full 2 months to register the birth).
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I have some hope that you may find something on the poor relief notes at the Mitchell Library (ever hopefull me ;)). Nothing else will give you the background really to the events surrounding his birth and his early years. You know that official adoption notes are not an option (there is also I think a question mark as to whether he ever was actually adopted inspite of what he shows for possible parents' names on his marriage/death certs).
Actual documents on him that you have mentioned: you have his original birth, his 1911 census entry and then marriage and death certs.
Need always at least one (more is always nice ::)) key piece of info don't you...
Monica
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Yes Monica, that is my next best hope I think.
This is especially frustrating as the rest of my family research has been relatively straightforward and has produced good results from some fairly straightforward work. Relatively regular families, staying within certain localities over the centuries.
Then this more transient situation with a less stable family context and all the confusion around what was deliberate obfuscation, what was mistold, misremembered etc.
But I won't leave it alone ...
I do appreciate the suggestions here :) Thanks everyone.
Stewart
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My Grandfather was in the same orphanage in Kinloch Rannoch at the same time as your Grandfather. My paternal Grandfather was orphaned out there from Glasgow and worked for the Laird and Lady on the Dunalastair Estate where he was trained to be a Forester. He was born in Milton, Glasgow in 1900. We do not know what happened to his parents. We took him up to Kinloch Rannoch when he was 71. I was 13 at the time. He showed us the cottage where the boys stayed and we went to the derelict mansion house on the Dunalastair Estate where the Laird and Lady lived.