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Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: TwiggyTree on Sunday 28 April 13 11:10 BST (UK)
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Dear friends
ANZAC day and time with family have raised an interest in the last battle at Gallipolli.
Family story has it that this battle was called the Battle of the Teacups, and was fought by the last 6 men only, rigging cups to the guns triggers and relying on water to fill them and set them off, long after the main battalions had retrenched.
Does anyone know anything about this being true?
If so, is this detailed anywhere?
Thank you,
Twiggy
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Hi Twiggy,
I haven't heard of the name 'Battle of the Teacups', but the story of rigging pannikins to the gun triggers and using water to set them off at different times is certainly true.
It was part of the larger planned deception used to evacuate the last of the men from Gallipoli without casualties at night and ironically was the most successful operation the Allies undertook in the campaign - an evacuation.
If this was a family story the 'Battle of the Teacups' might be an informal survivor's name for the ruse and 'the last six men' a memory of him or his mates carrying it out in their particular trench.
Spades
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Thank you for that confirmation spades, at least we seem to be on the right track.
Where did you find out about this? I hadn't had much luck searching online.
If the ANZAC forces were under the British, whose were the main records of this event?
Do you think that our NZ Battalion diaries in Archives NZ might have more information?
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Hi Twiggy,
I don't have any answers to the questions you pose, but page 275 of the coffee-table book Gallipoli. Untold stories from war correspondent Charles Bean and front line Anzacs talks about an Australian who invented a technique for firing off rifles by "two bully beef tins full of water and a bit of string...it will pull the trigger as late as 20 minutes after it has been left'.
Men were evacuated in small groups at first with the final Evacuation Days the nights of 18 and 19 December.
This book is an excellent day-by-day account of the campaign, and although from an Aussie point of view rather than Kiwi or British, covers the daily struggle to survive the snipers, artillery bombardments, thirst, etc.
If you read the most recent newspaper articles and New Zealand Listener dealing with Anzac Day commemorations you will gain a lot more information. And there is the WW100 website as well
http://ww100.govt.nz/
Spades
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I wonder if there's information to help to be found in C W Bean's books (Australia's official historian for WWI)
They are available as pdf files
http://www.awm.gov.au/histories/first_world_war/
Probably looking for Vol II and its index starts at its page 911
Cheers, JM
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Thank you both.
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Hi
It was called the "drip rifle" made from obviously a rifle, 2 jam tins, some wire, water & a chunk of wood. I've never heard of it being called as the "Battle of the Teacups" but that naming of it really puts an ANZAC twist on it.
There are many books you can get your hands on, unfortunately I've only read books written by Australian authors. The book that I think gives a good chronological account is one called "Gallipoli: The final battles and evacuation of ANZAC" written by David W. Cameron.
And yes Majm is right, Charles W Bean's books or diaries would be an excellent place to start. He was at Gallipoli & saw first hand what our ANZAC's were going through right up to the very end.
Cheers,
LLp
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http://anzac.homestead.com/rifle.html
Photos and info at that link ;D
ADDING this link :
http://www.awm.gov.au/encyclopedia/gallipoli/drip_rifle.asp
Cheers, JM
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Wonderful resources, information and leads folks! :D
I am going to share them with family and see if it triggers any further memories.
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Gallipoli. Untold stories from war correspondent Charles Bean and front line Anzacs.
This book mentioned above focuses on Bean's reportage of the war, with lots of quotes from his writings as well as soldier's accounts and many useful photos.
Spades
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The official history is online and available for download as a few PDFs ..
Chapter 30 of volume 2 looks to be what you are after
http://www.awm.gov.au/histories/first_world_war/volume.asp?levelID=67888
Bean was the 'major' editor/writer of this.
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I wonder if there's information to help to be found in C W Bean's books (Australia's official historian for WWI)
They are available as pdf files
http://www.awm.gov.au/histories/first_world_war/
Probably looking for Vol II and its index starts at its page 911
Cheers, JM
The official history is online and available for download as a few PDFs ..
Chapter 30 of volume 2 looks to be what you are after
http://www.awm.gov.au/histories/first_world_war/volume.asp?levelID=67888
Bean was the 'major' editor/writer of this.
I say, I say, I say .... errr ..... Hello, Hello ....is this a friendly SNAP moment :) cropping up
Good to see that C W Bean's Official History is being acknowledged :D
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I say, I say, I say .... errr ..... Hello, Hello ....is this a friendly SNAP moment :) cropping up
::) Opps .. missed the mention of the official history bit .. Bean has written quite a lot. And I did not 'see' the official history mention skipping through the multiple Bean mentions. There is some criticism of Bean saying he is biased .. but you get that with a single human. So if you are trying for more than one view on the history of Gallipoli I'd go with Beans official history (it is free) and another book by someone else?
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Would be nice to see something from the Kiwi perspective too.
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Page 895 of Volume II in the footnotes, Bean writes about the rifles
I am quite quite sure that Bean was writing up the official history for both NZ and Australia. Bean was there in 1915. He landed 25 April, 1915. He was selected ahead of Rupert's father Keith :)
http://www.awm.gov.au/collection/records/awm38/3drl606/
Bean was born at Bathurst NSW, in the era when there were very strong moves to form the SEVEN colonies into one, and in fact, at one stage in the 1890s New Zealand was more likely been part of the Federation ahead of Western Australia.
I would have loved the capital of the Federation to have been in New Zealand :)
PS, in the Index (I linked earlier) look under NZ :)
Would be nice to see something from the Kiwi perspective too.
Adding lots of info in Vol II re NZ Exped. Forces, so it is worthwhile looking for names of individual NZ personnel at Anzac in the Vol II index. I spotted that NZ's Major General Andrew Hamilton RUSSELL has lots of index references in Vol II. Each volume is hundreds and hundreds of pages with intimate details of battles. Thanks to Bean's writing, I know the exact time to the minute that one of my WWI cousins was KiA .... his War Service records are digitised thanks to RChatters in NZ.
Cheers, JM
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I am quite quite sure that Bean was writing up the official history for both NZ and Australia.
NO. You'll have kiwis jumping up and down all over the place .. (storms in those tea cups ;D )
http://nzetc.victoria.ac.nz/tm/scholarly/tei-corpus-WH1.html
While I think of Aussies and Kiwis as being family (think brothers) and will cover each other when required, they do have separate views that they will express as and when required.
PS, in the Index (I linked earlier) look under NZ :)
Would be nice to see something from the Kiwi perspective too.
Cheers, JM
Let the Kiwis speak for themselves. See my link above for their view/s.
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I have every reason to believe that BEAN believed he was writing the official history of ANZAC for both NZ and Australia. I have private correspondence in my family papers to show this. Bean was born Bathurst NSW, and his family were next door neighbours to my lot.
I have added some further info to my most recent post, re the Index details that I mentioned earlier. Please be very much assured that the CO-OPERATION between NZEF and AIF was extremely close. There was no reason for it not to be so.
Nearly 100 years later and the two Nations have grown and developed, but please don't use 21st century eyes to look at the Antipodean Colonies in the 1880s and 1890s and right through to say 1948 when Britain finally allowed her Dominions to grant their citizens their own citizenship status. Until then, we were all simply British Subjects, and not New Zealanders, or Australians in any constitutional or legal sense at all.
Cheers, JM
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Hi Twiggy,
I recently finished reading Letters from Gallipoli. New Zealand soldiers write home.
http://www.press.auckland.ac.nz/uoa/home/notices/template/notice_item.jsp?cid=414244
A fascinating read. Provides impressions from basic training, the journey by troopship, the landings, being wounded, the terrain and the immense difficulties it imposed on the supply of water, ammunition, food and the return of wounded to the beaches, the loss of friends and the letters soldiers wrote to the families of wounded or dead comrades, the evacuation, etc.
Spades
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Warin's NZETC link led me to the history of the specific battalion of interest. This was really enlightening as it paralleled the military file information. It put 'meat on bones' so as to speak. It also, sadly indicated that we will never know if the family story is true, as only 8 of the last larger group to evacuate were named; unless another source is found. Bean's history suggested that each battalion/regiment/group had about 20 minutes to vacate their trench, so the story is still possible.
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:D Hi If you would like further Info on New Zealanders efforts in Gallipoli there are three good New Zealand history books you should read:
The Anzac Experience NZ, Australia, and Empire in the WW1....Christopher Pugsley.
Echoes of Gallipoli ..Terry Kinloch.. NZ Mounted Riflemen.
Bloody Gallipoli ... Richard Stowers good ref lists deaths by the Day etc public library should have a copy 443 pages
regards J R
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Thanks for the book recommendation (yet another ;) ) spades.
Our library has a few Gallipoli books, now that I look along with the one you noted, so I will get them out this week.
I bet the soldiers who wrote letters home and diaries never thought that they would end up writing for a far wider audience by way of published books. Oh to have had smart phones, the internet, and global media a hundred years ago.
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sandy75, there is one of your book recommendations there too. Think I'll have to take the car for this trip!
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Hi again Twiggy,
Just an idle thought, but I almost bet that the word 'teacups' wasn't the original word your men used to describe the evacuation.
To me, anyway, something like 'Battle of the Billies' sounds more soldier-like, with 'teacups' the phrase used once home in company.
Happy reading,
Spades